Intel doesn't have Dual Core

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

Intel doesn't have a Dual Core CPU. Its what is called MCP (multiple
core package) Here's an example:
http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=44932

I'd like to upgrade in about 6 months, will the Athlon 64 (not opteron)
dual cores be out by then?

Cheers,
Ed
54 answers Last reply
More about intel doesn dual core
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Ed wrote:
    > Intel doesn't have a Dual Core CPU. Its what is called MCP (multiple
    > core package) Here's an example:
    > http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=44932
    >
    > I'd like to upgrade in about 6 months, will the Athlon 64 (not opteron)
    > dual cores be out by then?

    More than likely they'll be out by May. Each is introducing their
    primary dual-core processors this month: in the case of Intel, that's a
    gaming desktop chip; in the case of AMD, that's a server chip.

    Over the course of next month and subsequent months, they're going to
    introduce dual cores for their other markets: primarily desktops and
    laptops for AMD; primarily servers and secondarily laptops for Intel.
    Intel is probably going to have some trouble introducing the dual-core
    laptop chips as it's going to require they bring out a Pentium-M version
    of dual-core, not as simple as getting Pentium 4-based dual-cores.

    Yousuf Khan
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:19:07 -0400, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
    wrote:

    >Ed wrote:
    >> Intel doesn't have a Dual Core CPU. Its what is called MCP (multiple
    >> core package) Here's an example:
    >> http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=44932
    >>
    >> I'd like to upgrade in about 6 months, will the Athlon 64 (not opteron)
    >> dual cores be out by then?
    >
    >More than likely they'll be out by May. Each is introducing their
    >primary dual-core processors this month: in the case of Intel, that's a
    >gaming desktop chip; in the case of AMD, that's a server chip.
    >
    >Over the course of next month and subsequent months, they're going to
    >introduce dual cores for their other markets: primarily desktops and
    >laptops for AMD; primarily servers and secondarily laptops for Intel.
    >Intel is probably going to have some trouble introducing the dual-core
    >laptop chips as it's going to require they bring out a Pentium-M version
    >of dual-core, not as simple as getting Pentium 4-based dual-cores.
    >

    This is all so *lame*. Although I have to admit that intel is a
    little more lame than AMD on this round, it's all lame, at least as
    far as general users are concerned. Couple of years, after the
    applications are sorted out, maybe.

    Meanwhilst, the server guys can use it all right away. Good thing we
    got those marketeers to keep people buying, right Yousuf?

    I think it was a link on slashdot that suggested that now our machines
    won't be slowed down so much by security software running in the
    background. Microsoft->Buggy, vulnerable software->Security
    software->Slow machines->Need dual CPU. Everybody wins! What a
    country!

    RM
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Robert Myers wrote:
    > This is all so *lame*. Although I have to admit that intel is a
    > little more lame than AMD on this round, it's all lame, at least as
    > far as general users are concerned. Couple of years, after the
    > applications are sorted out, maybe.

    It was just so much slapstick, like a 1920's silent movie, where some
    Keystone cops trip over each other trying to chase Charlie Chaplin or
    Laurel & Hardy or somebody. One side's (AMD) introduction date gets
    leaked and then the comedy starts.

    AMD: We're going to introduce it at the 2nd anniversary of the
    introduction of Opteron.

    Intel: well we're going to announce it today at IDF in Japan, and start
    shipping it tomorrow.

    AMD: Oh yeah, well we've been shipping ours to our partners since
    January. Pbffft.

    Intel: Well, we've been planning on shipping it on this date all along,
    because ... because ... well here, because it's the 40th anniversary of
    Moore's Law. See here's a $10,000 contest to rob libraries of the most
    pristine copy of the original magazine it was printed on.

    AMD: Oh yeah? Well HP's already /accidently/ put up their dual-core
    Opteron blade offerings for sale on their website, and took it down
    already. Shows that they're ready to offer it right now.

    Intel: Well, Alienware and Dell are going to offer the dual-core Extreme
    Edition systems on Monday!

    AMD: Well, your dual-core isn't even really a dual-core it's two
    processors glued together. You're trying to claim a hollow victory.

    Intel: Well, we'll leave the debate about architectural elegance to
    others. Pbffft.

    Intel & AMD (together): BTW, there's no contest to introduce the first
    dual-cores. We repeat, there is no contest.

    > I think it was a link on slashdot that suggested that now our machines
    > won't be slowed down so much by security software running in the
    > background. Microsoft->Buggy, vulnerable software->Security
    > software->Slow machines->Need dual CPU. Everybody wins! What a
    > country!

    Isn't that just like slashdot, always seeing the bright side of things? :-)

    Yousuf Khan
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Robert Myers wrote:

    >I think it was a link on slashdot that suggested that now our machines
    >won't be slowed down so much by security software running in the
    >background. Microsoft->Buggy, vulnerable software->Security
    >software->Slow machines->Need dual CPU. Everybody wins! What a
    >country!

    Heh. I like that - a separate CPU just to defend against
    Internet-bourne trojans and virii. (Viri Vidi Vici?) Alternatively,
    we could track-down the idiots who start the attacks, put them against
    the wall, and have them die in a hail of bullets. That might cut it
    down, some...
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    chrisv wrote:
    > Robert Myers wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I think it was a link on slashdot that suggested that now our machines
    >>won't be slowed down so much by security software running in the
    >>background. Microsoft->Buggy, vulnerable software->Security
    >>software->Slow machines->Need dual CPU. Everybody wins! What a
    >>country!
    >
    >
    > Heh. I like that - a separate CPU just to defend against
    > Internet-bourne trojans and virii.

    A lot of people already effectively have that. Its called a
    firewall.

    > (Viri Vidi Vici?) Alternatively,
    > we could track-down the idiots who start the attacks, put them against
    > the wall, and have them die in a hail of bullets. That might cut it
    > down, some...
    >
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:20:25 +0000, Rob Stow wrote:

    > chrisv wrote:
    >> Robert Myers wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I think it was a link on slashdot that suggested that now our machines
    >>>won't be slowed down so much by security software running in the
    >>>background. Microsoft->Buggy, vulnerable software->Security
    >>>software->Slow machines->Need dual CPU. Everybody wins! What a
    >>>country!
    >>
    >>
    >> Heh. I like that - a separate CPU just to defend against
    >> Internet-bourne trojans and virii.
    >
    > A lot of people already effectively have that. Its called a
    > firewall.

    You beat me to it! ...and they're a tad cheaper than an x86 SMP processor
    too (a simple embedded processor with no direct access to the rest of the
    system). Note that I think duals are a good idea. ...but this ain't one of
    'em!

    --
    Keith
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    keith wrote:
    >>A lot of people already effectively have that. Its called a
    >>firewall.
    >
    >
    > You beat me to it! ...and they're a tad cheaper than an x86 SMP processor
    > too (a simple embedded processor with no direct access to the rest of the
    > system). Note that I think duals are a good idea. ...but this ain't one of
    > 'em!
    >

    It's starting to look like some of these cheap firewalls would probably
    benefit from a pretty powerful x86 processor, I'm starting to see some
    of these firewalls can't keep up with the traffic of such common tasks
    as P2P networks.

    Yousuf Khan
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Yousuf Khan wrote:

    >It's starting to look like some of these cheap firewalls would probably
    >benefit from a pretty powerful x86 processor, I'm starting to see some
    >of these firewalls can't keep up with the traffic of such common tasks
    >as P2P networks.

    Hmm... I wonder if that's why my inaugural experience with Bit
    Torrent was so very disappointing...
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    In article <X2r9e.4308$9G.424063@news20.bellglobal.com>, bbbl67
    @ezrs.com says...
    > keith wrote:
    > >>A lot of people already effectively have that. Its called a
    > >>firewall.
    > >
    > >
    > > You beat me to it! ...and they're a tad cheaper than an x86 SMP processor
    > > too (a simple embedded processor with no direct access to the rest of the
    > > system). Note that I think duals are a good idea. ...but this ain't one of
    > > 'em!
    > >
    >
    > It's starting to look like some of these cheap firewalls would probably
    > benefit from a pretty powerful x86 processor, I'm starting to see some
    > of these firewalls can't keep up with the traffic of such common tasks
    > as P2P networks.

    Perhaps, but there is no need for an embedded processor like this to
    run WinBlows in any form, thus there's no reason to be x86. There are
    other processors that fit into the embedded space better than the x86
    offerings. Throw off the Win-cruft and run on the metal.

    --
    Keith
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:22:17 -0500, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
    wrote:

    >Yousuf Khan wrote:
    >
    >>It's starting to look like some of these cheap firewalls would probably
    >>benefit from a pretty powerful x86 processor, I'm starting to see some
    >>of these firewalls can't keep up with the traffic of such common tasks
    >>as P2P networks.
    >
    >Hmm... I wonder if that's why my inaugural experience with Bit
    >Torrent was so very disappointing...

    Very interesting you should bring this up. I am as we speak trying
    out Bit Torrent for the first time. I have been downloading the
    Mandrake 2005 DVD image for the past 3 days, and I still have 18 hours
    to go. This is on a 3 mbit DSL connection, which will download around
    1 gigabyte per hour from a good source.

    I have a home network behind a Belkin F5D5230-4 router. This router
    has served me very well for the past 13 months, running for months at
    a time without a reboot. Searching for answers as to why the Bit
    Torrent download was so slow, I found information indicating that I
    needed to "port forward" ports 6881 thru 6889, and did so. Since
    doing so, the speeds have not increased, and the router has hung up
    twice in the last 8 hours, requiring a hard reboot.

    I have in the closet an SMC Barricade 7004, a Dlink 704, and a Dlink
    604 router. Anyone care to offer an opinion on one of those? Or
    perhaps a dedicated computer running Smoothwall or Coyote or Redwall?
    I have several old junk PII/PIII computers in the garage.
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    chrisv wrote:
    > Yousuf Khan wrote:
    >
    >
    >>It's starting to look like some of these cheap firewalls would probably
    >>benefit from a pretty powerful x86 processor, I'm starting to see some
    >>of these firewalls can't keep up with the traffic of such common tasks
    >>as P2P networks.
    >
    >
    > Hmm... I wonder if that's why my inaugural experience with Bit
    > Torrent was so very disappointing...
    >

    The only way to find out is to try it. If you get a chance, attach the
    computer that you're doing the Bittorents from directly into the
    broadband modem (with appropriate software firewalls, of course). You'll
    find that the routers are getting in the way these days, more than they
    are helping.

    Yousuf Khan
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Henry Nettles wrote:
    > I have in the closet an SMC Barricade 7004, a Dlink 704, and a Dlink
    > 604 router. Anyone care to offer an opinion on one of those? Or
    > perhaps a dedicated computer running Smoothwall or Coyote or Redwall?
    > I have several old junk PII/PIII computers in the garage.

    Take that old junk P2/P3 out of the garage and put Linux with IPChains
    on it.

    Yousuf Khan
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Keith R. Williams wrote:
    > Perhaps, but there is no need for an embedded processor like this to
    > run WinBlows in any form, thus there's no reason to be x86. There are
    > other processors that fit into the embedded space better than the x86
    > offerings. Throw off the Win-cruft and run on the metal.

    I was hardly even thinking of Windows for this purpose. There's Linux of
    course, but more appropriately for this purposes would be a real-time OS
    like QNX.

    Yousuf Khan
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Keith R. Williams wrote:
    > > I was hardly even thinking of Windows for this purpose. There's
    Linux of
    > > course, but more appropriately for this purposes would be a
    real-time OS
    > > like QNX.
    >
    > Right, then there's no need for the second processor to be an x86.

    Wasn't thinking of using an x86 as a second processor, but as the
    primary processor inside these routers. One of the first routers that I
    had was an old Dlink 4-port ethernet. I opened it up, and found inside
    it was an AMD 186 embedded chip. So x86 has been used inside these
    things before. Imagine an Opteron embedded chip instead?

    Yousuf Khan
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    In article <gdG9e.11408$Jg5.875086@news20.bellglobal.com>, bbbl67
    @ezrs.com says...
    > Keith R. Williams wrote:
    > > Perhaps, but there is no need for an embedded processor like this to
    > > run WinBlows in any form, thus there's no reason to be x86. There are
    > > other processors that fit into the embedded space better than the x86
    > > offerings. Throw off the Win-cruft and run on the metal.
    >
    > I was hardly even thinking of Windows for this purpose. There's Linux of
    > course, but more appropriately for this purposes would be a real-time OS
    > like QNX.

    Right, then there's no need for the second processor to be an x86.

    --
    Keith
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:25:29 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:

    > chrisv wrote:
    >> Yousuf Khan wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>It's starting to look like some of these cheap firewalls would probably
    >>>benefit from a pretty powerful x86 processor, I'm starting to see some
    >>>of these firewalls can't keep up with the traffic of such common tasks
    >>>as P2P networks.
    >>
    >>
    >> Hmm... I wonder if that's why my inaugural experience with Bit
    >> Torrent was so very disappointing...
    >>
    >
    > The only way to find out is to try it. If you get a chance, attach the
    > computer that you're doing the Bittorents from directly into the
    > broadband modem (with appropriate software firewalls, of course). You'll
    > find that the routers are getting in the way these days, more than they
    > are helping.
    >
    > Yousuf Khan

    I find Bittorent to be a little spotty, at times it works great, all
    depending on how many seeders you have, and if they leave open the client
    after downloading. It also depends on what you download, if its TV shows
    then Bittorent is an excellent way to go as well as music, anything else
    your better off with Usenet, and a paid server such as NewsHosting, or
    EasyNews. In fact I won't touch Bittorent nowadays as its infested with
    **AA looking for john doe law suites. At least with Usenet you can choose
    your poison, the **AA are still looking, but at least its not a problem
    unless you upload on your regular ISP.

    One thing that I am still amazed with is no matter what router you buy,
    your still stuck by your less than 10 mbit cable, or DSL connection. Try
    this if you have cable, wait until about 4-5 at night and then download a
    big harry file from any source? I keep my systems on all the time,
    durning peak times you can see the traffic add up and slow down your
    connection. I have a hard time checking e-mail at those peak times, I try
    to avoid downloading anything as well. DSL in my experience is better in
    this regard, as you do not have to fuss with all your neighbors going to
    the local hub. If you have cable try some sniffing programs sometime, and
    see just how much traffic passes over the WAN. I can't wait until fibre
    to the home is a reality it seems that everyone is over selling
    connections. I once was considering a business account for better
    service, but the salesperson could not promise better connection speeds
    and would not say so in writing. So I would end up paying more for the
    connection just to get better customer service, and maybe a dedicated IP
    address, I about fell off my chair laughing.

    I also thought it was funny as I searched the local cable site and did not
    see any reference to Usenet news servers, but when I put in the old
    address I still get connected, and other goodness. I guess the unlimited
    internet connection is no longer unlimited, but has limits, imagine that.

    Gnu_Raiz
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    In article <1114095329.110102.245030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
    yjkhan@gmail.com says...
    > Keith R. Williams wrote:
    > > > I was hardly even thinking of Windows for this purpose. There's
    > Linux of
    > > > course, but more appropriately for this purposes would be a
    > real-time OS
    > > > like QNX.
    > >
    > > Right, then there's no need for the second processor to be an x86.
    >
    > Wasn't thinking of using an x86 as a second processor, but as the
    > primary processor inside these routers. One of the first routers that I
    > had was an old Dlink 4-port ethernet.

    Oh, I thought we were talking about a "router" being a use for the
    second processor in a dual-core system (see subject).

    > I opened it up, and found inside
    > it was an AMD 186 embedded chip. So x86 has been used inside these
    > things before. Imagine an Opteron embedded chip instead?

    Sure, the 80186 has been in the embedded space since it came out. It's
    not "IBM compatible" so it never made it to the desktop (well it did,
    sorta, but wasn't "compatible"). Why waste a perfectly good Opteron?
    There are cheaper embedded processors.

    --
    Keith
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Gnu_Raiz wrote:

    > In fact I won't touch Bittorent nowadays as its infested with
    >**AA looking for john doe law suites. At least with Usenet you can choose
    >your poison, the **AA are still looking, but at least its not a problem
    >unless you upload on your regular ISP.

    What are you talking about?
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:44:57 -0400, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
    wrote:

    >Keith R. Williams wrote:
    >> Perhaps, but there is no need for an embedded processor like this to
    >> run WinBlows in any form, thus there's no reason to be x86. There are
    >> other processors that fit into the embedded space better than the x86
    >> offerings. Throw off the Win-cruft and run on the metal.
    >
    >I was hardly even thinking of Windows for this purpose. There's Linux of
    >course, but more appropriately for this purposes would be a real-time OS
    >like QNX.

    My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    code for this very purpose. I'm not quite sure how much of it is
    handled by a dedicated ASIC though and how much is just handled by the
    host processor...

    Hmm... a Winfirewall anyone? :>

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On 21 Apr 2005 07:55:29 -0700, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Wasn't thinking of using an x86 as a second processor, but as the
    >primary processor inside these routers. One of the first routers that I
    >had was an old Dlink 4-port ethernet. I opened it up, and found inside
    >it was an AMD 186 embedded chip. So x86 has been used inside these
    >things before. Imagine an Opteron embedded chip instead?

    Huh? Why bother with a $100+ Opteron embedded chip when a $2 ARM chip
    will do just as well with a fraction of the power consumption? There
    really isn't much processor required for most of these firewalls, you
    could probably even pull it off without too much trouble on a 16-bit
    microcontroller, though a 32-bit one might be preferable. Probably
    all you would need could be handled through ucLinux, so software and
    development time shouldn't take too much. Something like QNX is
    probably overkill (cost wise at least) for such a setup.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:21:59 -0500, chrisv wrote:

    > Gnu_Raiz wrote:
    >
    >> In fact I won't touch Bittorent nowadays as its infested with
    >>**AA looking for john doe law suites. At least with Usenet you can choose
    >>your poison, the **AA are still looking, but at least its not a problem
    >>unless you upload on your regular ISP.
    >
    > What are you talking about?

    I have it from good sources that the **AA are putting up fake torrents,
    like they sometimes do with MP3's so the person who downloads the torrent
    thinks they are getting the file which turns out to be a whole lot of
    filler. Ok its a slashdot post, which points to an inquirer article, but I
    think its a valid statement.

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/1831256&from=rss

    When I am talking about Usenet, I am talking about alt.binaries
    newsgroups, not just our discussion groups, but the other end of the
    spectrum.

    In a lot of those groups they post samples of movies, and music that you
    can download to determine the quality of the product. If the sample looks
    bad you can not download it, thus saving you all the bandwidth, and time.
    But with torrents you really do not know the quality until you have the
    file in front of you. You don't know if its little johnny in the
    backyard, or the material you thought it was. If your curious about what
    is being posted on Usenet alt.binaries news groups you might want to
    wander over here.

    http://www.newzbin.com/

    Gnu_Raiz
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Gnu_Raiz wrote:

    >On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:21:59 -0500, chrisv wrote:
    >
    >> Gnu_Raiz wrote:
    >>
    >>> In fact I won't touch Bittorent nowadays as its infested with
    >>>**AA looking for john doe law suites. At least with Usenet you can choose
    >>>your poison, the **AA are still looking, but at least its not a problem
    >>>unless you upload on your regular ISP.
    >>
    >> What are you talking about?
    >
    >I have it from good sources that the **AA are putting up fake torrents,
    >like they sometimes do with MP3's so the person who downloads the torrent
    >thinks they are getting the file which turns out to be a whole lot of
    >filler. Ok its a slashdot post, which points to an inquirer article, but I
    >think its a valid statement.

    If people wouldn't steal, they wouldn't have to worry about getting
    caught stealing.
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Tony Hill wrote:

    > My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    > nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    > code for this very purpose.

    That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?

    I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Tony Hill wrote:
    > Huh? Why bother with a $100+ Opteron embedded chip when a $2 ARM chip
    > will do just as well with a fraction of the power consumption? There
    > really isn't much processor required for most of these firewalls, you
    > could probably even pull it off without too much trouble on a 16-bit
    > microcontroller, though a 32-bit one might be preferable. Probably
    > all you would need could be handled through ucLinux, so software and
    > development time shouldn't take too much. Something like QNX is
    > probably overkill (cost wise at least) for such a setup.

    Because as I've said before in this thread, I don't believe the "$2 ARM
    chip" is even close to adequate for the job. I don't believe any of the
    current generation of embedded processors and/or DSPs are adequate for
    the job anymore. If you look at the array of tasks that's being foisted
    upon them, they are quite obviously overloaded. Used to be a time when a
    broadband router was just an ethernet router, now it's Ethernet and
    WiFi. On top of that, the WiFi requires encrypting. The Ethernet
    connection now uses a switching function that is done at the speed of
    100Mbps. Let's not forget the most important function of the broadband
    router, the NAT firewall. Is it a wonder that we see these routers drop
    packets left-right and centre.

    yousuf Khan
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:47:58 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:

    > Tony Hill wrote:
    >> Huh? Why bother with a $100+ Opteron embedded chip when a $2 ARM chip
    >> will do just as well with a fraction of the power consumption? There
    >> really isn't much processor required for most of these firewalls, you
    >> could probably even pull it off without too much trouble on a 16-bit
    >> microcontroller, though a 32-bit one might be preferable. Probably
    >> all you would need could be handled through ucLinux, so software and
    >> development time shouldn't take too much. Something like QNX is
    >> probably overkill (cost wise at least) for such a setup.
    >
    > Because as I've said before in this thread, I don't believe the "$2 ARM
    > chip" is even close to adequate for the job. I don't believe any of the
    > current generation of embedded processors and/or DSPs are adequate for
    > the job anymore. If you look at the array of tasks that's being foisted
    > upon them, they are quite obviously overloaded. Used to be a time when a
    > broadband router was just an ethernet router, now it's Ethernet and
    > WiFi. On top of that, the WiFi requires encrypting. The Ethernet
    > connection now uses a switching function that is done at the speed of
    > 100Mbps. Let's not forget the most important function of the broadband
    > router, the NAT firewall. Is it a wonder that we see these routers drop
    > packets left-right and centre.

    Perhaps not a $2 ARM, but throw off the layers of windows cruft and there
    is a lot of horsepower in embedded processors these days. EN switching and
    encryption are trivial processes which can be accellerated in hardware.
    Embed the processor on an ASIC and be done with it. A router doesn't have
    all *that* much work to do, even at 100Mbps. That's only 12MBps. Even
    with four ports (only two streams at this rate) not all that much is
    happening. If a dropped packet happens, who's going to notice?

    --
    Keith
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:

    > Tony Hill wrote:
    >
    >> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >> code for this very purpose.
    >
    > That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    > drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?

    They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    that they do.

    > I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    > http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html

    --
    Keith
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    keith wrote:
    > Perhaps not a $2 ARM, but throw off the layers of windows cruft and there
    > is a lot of horsepower in embedded processors these days. EN switching and
    > encryption are trivial processes which can be accellerated in hardware.

    There is no Windows cruft inside embedded applications, mostly.

    > Embed the processor on an ASIC and be done with it. A router doesn't have
    > all *that* much work to do, even at 100Mbps. That's only 12MBps. Even
    > with four ports (only two streams at this rate) not all that much is
    > happening. If a dropped packet happens, who's going to notice?
    >

    Well obviously if this were that simple and clearcut, then i wouldn't
    have mentioned it. But many of these routers are having a lot of trouble
    keeping up with the traffic coming through them.

    Yousuf Khan
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

    >On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >
    >> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>
    >>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>> code for this very purpose.
    >>
    >> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >
    >They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    >that they do.
    >
    >> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html

    That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?
    I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).

    RM
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:39:32 -0400, Yousuf Khan wrote:

    > keith wrote:
    >> Perhaps not a $2 ARM, but throw off the layers of windows cruft and there
    >> is a lot of horsepower in embedded processors these days. EN switching and
    >> encryption are trivial processes which can be accellerated in hardware.
    >
    > There is no Windows cruft inside embedded applications, mostly.

    Sure, but look at the subject again. If you're not going to do Win-cruft
    there are far cheaper processors out there. Some are even rather high
    performance.

    >> Embed the processor on an ASIC and be done with it. A router doesn't
    >> have all *that* much work to do, even at 100Mbps. That's only 12MBps.
    >> Even with four ports (only two streams at this rate) not all that much
    >> is happening. If a dropped packet happens, who's going to notice?
    >>
    >>
    > Well obviously if this were that simple and clearcut, then i wouldn't
    > have mentioned it. But many of these routers are having a lot of trouble
    > keeping up with the traffic coming through them.

    I haven't seen that to be the case. I don't beleive routers are CPU
    starved. I'm not sure how you'd tell a dropped packet from loading from
    WiFi EMI.

    --
    Keith
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:47:58 -0400, Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@ezrs.com>
    wrote:

    >Tony Hill wrote:
    >> Huh? Why bother with a $100+ Opteron embedded chip when a $2 ARM chip
    >> will do just as well with a fraction of the power consumption? There
    >> really isn't much processor required for most of these firewalls, you
    >> could probably even pull it off without too much trouble on a 16-bit
    >> microcontroller, though a 32-bit one might be preferable. Probably
    >> all you would need could be handled through ucLinux, so software and
    >> development time shouldn't take too much. Something like QNX is
    >> probably overkill (cost wise at least) for such a setup.
    >
    >Because as I've said before in this thread, I don't believe the "$2 ARM
    >chip" is even close to adequate for the job. I don't believe any of the
    >current generation of embedded processors and/or DSPs are adequate for
    >the job anymore. If you look at the array of tasks that's being foisted
    >upon them, they are quite obviously overloaded. Used to be a time when a
    >broadband router was just an ethernet router, now it's Ethernet and
    >WiFi. On top of that, the WiFi requires encrypting. The Ethernet
    >connection now uses a switching function that is done at the speed of
    >100Mbps. Let's not forget the most important function of the broadband
    >router, the NAT firewall. Is it a wonder that we see these routers drop
    >packets left-right and centre.

    I would tend to disagree, you can get some VERY beefy ARM chips for
    pretty darn cheap when buying in large quantities (though I was
    exaggerating a bit when I said "$2"). Sure, the requirements are
    fairly high, and the encryption might pose slight problems, though I
    wouldn't be at all surprised if you can get an ARM chip with an
    encryption off-load engine attached. Most of the other stuff is just
    a matter of tossing bits around and doesn't really require a huge
    amount of processor umph.

    Now, mind you, I wouldn't expect most of the low-end routers probably
    don't even use a $2 ARM chip. Instead they mostly seem to use ASICs
    designed specifically for the job. You actually got me curious enough
    that I cracked open my D-Link 522 router (802.11G WiFi + 4 port
    ethernet). It uses a Marvel 88W8510 chipset:

    http://www.marvell.com/products/wireless/libertas/88W8510.jsp


    This chip has, among other things, an embedded ARM9 core, though I
    couldn't find many details about the performance of this chip.
    Presumably it's not a very high-end core like you would get with a
    stand-alone ARM chip.

    To go along with this it has a Marvel 88E6060 Ethernet switch chip:

    http://www.marvell.com/products/switching/linkstreet/88E6060.jsp


    Only other chips in there are a 64Mbit SDRAM chip for ISSI and a Flash
    chip from Intel.


    This router seems to do the job pretty well, albeit for a fairly
    simple network of only 2 PCs (both wired at this stage). Obviously a
    more complex setup would require a more powerful design. If you
    REALLY need some higher end performance then IBM has a rather nice
    line of PowerPC chips designed specifically for this sort of task.
    This is what Cisco uses for their routers.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble <devnull@kma.eu.org>
    wrote:

    >Tony Hill wrote:
    >
    >> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >> code for this very purpose.
    >
    >That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?

    Most of the IP and firewall related stuff in Linux is old BSD stuff,
    so it's quite possible that they have absolutely no need to release
    the source code.

    Not all of Linux is covered under the GPL.

    Keep in mind also that this is just what I've heard about the nVidia
    firewall, I can't verify if the information is correct in any way.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:36:02 -0500, Gnu_Raiz
    <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:

    >On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:21:59 -0500, chrisv wrote:
    >
    >> Gnu_Raiz wrote:
    >>
    >>> In fact I won't touch Bittorent nowadays as its infested with
    >>>**AA looking for john doe law suites. At least with Usenet you can choose
    >>>your poison, the **AA are still looking, but at least its not a problem
    >>>unless you upload on your regular ISP.
    >>
    >> What are you talking about?
    >
    >I have it from good sources that the **AA are putting up fake torrents,
    >like they sometimes do with MP3's so the person who downloads the torrent
    >thinks they are getting the file which turns out to be a whole lot of
    >filler. Ok its a slashdot post, which points to an inquirer article, but I
    >think its a valid statement.
    >
    >http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/1831256&from=rss

    Did you even *READ* that article? If so, can you please explain to me
    how, in ANY possible way, copy protection built into modern releases
    of music products has even the slightest connection to a legal
    download of Mandrake?

    You're not only barking up the wrong tree here, you're not even in the
    right forest!

    > When I am talking about Usenet, I am talking about alt.binaries
    >newsgroups, not just our discussion groups, but the other end of the
    >spectrum.
    >
    >In a lot of those groups they post samples of movies, and music that you
    >can download to determine the quality of the product. If the sample looks
    >bad you can not download it, thus saving you all the bandwidth, and time.
    >But with torrents you really do not know the quality until you have the
    >file in front of you.

    And again, how in the hell does this relate to the full, legal
    download of a Mandrake Linux distribution that is seeded directly from
    Mandrake themselves?!?!

    NOBODY was talking about piracy here, we're talking the fully legal
    and original intended use of Bittorrent, ie to allow for the
    distribution of large files without draining your websites bandwidth.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers wrote:

    > On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >>
    >>> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>>> code for this very purpose.
    >>>
    >>> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >>> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >>
    >>They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >>libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >>release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >>compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    >>that they do.
    >>
    >>> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
    >
    > That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?

    If that's a problem, dynamically link them. This stull *IS* done, so by
    EXISTANCE, it is possible.

    > I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    > scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).

    Perhaps, but the secrets can easily be hidden in silicon, as long as
    the silicon is a given. What do they care if you copy the code?

    --
    Keith
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:50:32 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

    > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:36:02 -0500, Gnu_Raiz
    > <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:21:59 -0500, chrisv wrote:
    >>
    >>> Gnu_Raiz wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In fact I won't touch Bittorent nowadays as its infested with
    >>>>**AA looking for john doe law suites. At least with Usenet you can choose
    >>>>your poison, the **AA are still looking, but at least its not a problem
    >>>>unless you upload on your regular ISP.
    >>>
    >>> What are you talking about?
    >>
    >>I have it from good sources that the **AA are putting up fake torrents,
    >>like they sometimes do with MP3's so the person who downloads the torrent
    >>thinks they are getting the file which turns out to be a whole lot of
    >>filler. Ok its a slashdot post, which points to an inquirer article, but I
    >>think its a valid statement.
    >>
    >>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/1831256&from=rss
    >
    > Did you even *READ* that article? If so, can you please explain to me
    > how, in ANY possible way, copy protection built into modern releases
    > of music products has even the slightest connection to a legal
    > download of Mandrake?

    I look at it from the point of view that Bittorent is a tool, anytime
    someone has a method of reducing your ability to use that tool in my book
    is bad. I wish more people would use Bittorent to cut costs, and welcome
    any Distro for using it. I thought Slashdot did a good job of bringing
    out the fears of people in the threads, no need to go over that, I just
    said it was possible. I think my worries are justified, by looking at
    this article.
    http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/23341.htm


    > You're not only barking up the wrong tree here, you're not even in the
    > right forest!

    Someone asked a question of what I was talking about and I answered the
    question.

    They are entitled to their opinion, I don't tell others how to think, or
    act and I do not expect them to do the same for me.


    >> When I am talking
    about Usenet, I am talking about alt.binaries
    >>newsgroups, not just our discussion groups, but the other end of the
    >>spectrum.
    >>
    >>In a lot of those groups they post samples of movies, and music that you
    >>can download to determine the quality of the product. If the sample
    >>looks bad you can not download it, thus saving you all the bandwidth,
    >>and time. But with torrents you really do not know the quality until you
    >>have the file in front of you.
    >
    > And again, how in the hell does this relate to the full, legal download
    > of a Mandrake Linux distribution that is seeded directly from Mandrake
    > themselves?!?!
    >
    > NOBODY was talking about piracy here, we're talking the fully legal and
    > original intended use of Bittorrent, ie to allow for the distribution of
    > large files without draining your websites bandwidth.

    I never mentioned illegal activities, or Piracy in my post I just pointed
    at some of the uses of Usenet. I leave that up to the individual to
    decide, I am not here to defend, or attack ones use of Usenet. As I
    stated before I feel the same way about Bittorent, Kazza, any other P2P
    network. One thing I can't stand is for people who want to reduce the
    effectiveness, of the tools I use be it Bittorent, Usenet, or any other
    item.


    > -------------
    > Tony Hill
    > hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

    Gnu_Raiz
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers <rmyers1400@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >>
    >>> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>>> code for this very purpose.
    >>>
    >>> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >>> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >>
    >>They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >>libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >>release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >>compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    >>that they do.
    >>
    >>> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
    >
    >That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?
    >I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    >scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).

    Seems I'm not alone - eh? I think you''re going to see more of this
    reluctance to release public detailed specs - there's always been some
    motivation to protect IP from the copyists; now you also have to protect
    yourself from the patent hi-jackers. Scientific conferences are also
    suffering from this phenomenon - nobody wants to present their work
    anymore.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 06:16:55 -0400, George Macdonald
    <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

    >On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers <rmyers1400@comcast.net>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>>>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>>>> code for this very purpose.
    >>>>
    >>>> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >>>> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >>>
    >>>They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >>>libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >>>release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >>>compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    >>>that they do.
    >>>
    >>>> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >>>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
    >>
    >>That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?
    >>I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    >>scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).
    >
    >Seems I'm not alone - eh?

    Software in silicon is a big mushy area, and I'm not sure I understand
    it all. If they *did* use iptables, does that make the verilog (or
    whatever) a derived work? I think it does.

    >I think you''re going to see more of this
    >reluctance to release public detailed specs - there's always been some
    >motivation to protect IP from the copyists; now you also have to protect
    >yourself from the patent hi-jackers.

    Where is that patent that might be hijacked? What I think they're
    really worried about is the public finding out just how little there
    is to the secret sauce.

    >Scientific conferences are also
    >suffering from this phenomenon - nobody wants to present their work
    >anymore.

    Scientists never really wanted to share. That's not new. It's a
    competitive business.

    RM
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    "Robert Myers" <rmyers1400@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:j45n61lt6h8bl53i284etrcot3g4fgoet5@4ax.com...
    > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 06:16:55 -0400, George Macdonald
    > <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers <rmyers1400@comcast.net>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>>>>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>>>>> code for this very purpose.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >>>>> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >>>>
    >>>>They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >>>>libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >>>>release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >>>>compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard
    >>>>requirement
    >>>>that they do.
    >>>>
    >>>>> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >>>>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
    >>>
    >>>That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?
    >>>I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    >>>scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).
    >>
    >>Seems I'm not alone - eh?
    >
    > Software in silicon is a big mushy area, and I'm not sure I understand
    > it all. If they *did* use iptables, does that make the verilog (or
    > whatever) a derived work? I think it does.
    >
    >>I think you''re going to see more of this
    >>reluctance to release public detailed specs - there's always been some
    >>motivation to protect IP from the copyists; now you also have to protect
    >>yourself from the patent hi-jackers.
    >
    > Where is that patent that might be hijacked? What I think they're
    > really worried about is the public finding out just how little there
    > is to the secret sauce.
    >
    >>Scientific conferences are also
    >>suffering from this phenomenon - nobody wants to present their work
    >>anymore.
    >
    > Scientists never really wanted to share. That's not new. It's a
    > competitive business.
    >
    > RM
    >
    In the US one has a year after disclosure to file the patent. In EU and
    some other places, disclosure precludes filing.

    Writing a paper or making a conference presentation is a lot of work. So of
    course folks don't want to do it unless there is some benefit to them
    personally. This benefit could be as little as peer recognition or a trip
    to a nice locale, or as great as the career advancment necessity of the
    academic track, but it has to be there. If one is employed and one's
    employer in indifferent to the publication process then why bother?

    del cecchi
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers wrote:

    > That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables? I
    > don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    > scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).

    More to the point, why bother with Linux/iptables when OpenBSD/pf (as an
    example) is better from both a technical and a licensing point of view?

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:37:53 -0500, Gnu_Raiz
    <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:

    >On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:50:32 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:
    >> Did you even *READ* that article? If so, can you please explain to me
    >> how, in ANY possible way, copy protection built into modern releases
    >> of music products has even the slightest connection to a legal
    >> download of Mandrake?
    >
    >I look at it from the point of view that Bittorent is a tool, anytime
    >someone has a method of reducing your ability to use that tool in my book
    >is bad. I wish more people would use Bittorent to cut costs, and welcome
    >any Distro for using it.

    The people reducing the ability to use Bittorent as a tool are those
    using it to illegally distribute copyrighted material. The RIAA and
    MPAA have every reason to be opposed to that as it is straight-up
    illegal. While I often disagree with the methods they use to fight
    such crimes and I absolutely refuse to buy some of their "copy
    protected" CDs, there's absolutely no argument anyone can make to say
    that they shouldn't be trying to prevent this copyright infringement.

    > I thought Slashdot did a good job of bringing
    >out the fears of people in the threads, no need to go over that, I just
    >said it was possible. I think my worries are justified, by looking at
    >this article.
    >http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/23341.htm

    You're worries are only justified here if you're illegally
    distributing (or in this case, selling) copyrighted material to which
    you do not have a license.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:48:00 -0400, Robert Myers <rmyers1400@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 06:16:55 -0400, George Macdonald
    ><fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers <rmyers1400@comcast.net>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>>>>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>>>>> code for this very purpose.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >>>>> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >>>>
    >>>>They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >>>>libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >>>>release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >>>>compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    >>>>that they do.
    >>>>
    >>>>> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >>>>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
    >>>
    >>>That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?
    >>>I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    >>>scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).
    >>
    >>Seems I'm not alone - eh?
    >
    >Software in silicon is a big mushy area, and I'm not sure I understand
    >it all. If they *did* use iptables, does that make the verilog (or
    >whatever) a derived work? I think it does.

    Very worrying all this stuff about "free" doo-hickeys.:-)

    >>I think you''re going to see more of this
    >>reluctance to release public detailed specs - there's always been some
    >>motivation to protect IP from the copyists; now you also have to protect
    >>yourself from the patent hi-jackers.
    >
    >Where is that patent that might be hijacked? What I think they're
    >really worried about is the public finding out just how little there
    >is to the secret sauce.

    You only have to look at what's going on. Here's one:
    http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA526838.html. PCI
    Express is an "open" standard with a .org and nominal (for a corp) fees for
    membership to share err, "technology". Based on their Jedec chicanery and
    results, I imagine they're going to be better equipped here to defend their
    umm, behavior. I've mentioned a couple of times here that RMBS seemed to
    be girding up to hi-jack PCI Express - the company is a nest of legal
    vultures... the evidence is clear. You don't have to be a genius to figure
    out the agendum - just wait for the infringement claims: "oh you can't use
    a register here or a count-down timer there - that's our IP".

    As for being "worried" just look at how VIA got harried, hounded and
    mauled... shortly before they quit making their Data Sheets freely
    available. Is it right? I dunno but having a license which limits clock
    speed ramps seems kinda nutty to me. Has anybody got a patent on the
    decimal number system yet?.... hmmmm.

    >>Scientific conferences are also
    >>suffering from this phenomenon - nobody wants to present their work
    >>anymore.
    >
    >Scientists never really wanted to share. That's not new. It's a
    >competitive business.

    It *is* getting worse. There are ways to present say, an algorithm without
    revealing "how to do it" and compromise your ability to profit in some way
    from your work. You only have to look at the conference attendance and
    program schedules compared with a few years ago.

    --
    Rgds, George Macdonald
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Tony Hill wrote:

    >As mentioned previously, I still refuse
    >to purchase any CD that has copy protection built in due to all the
    >problems they cause

    How do you tell, before you buy?
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:49:12 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:

    > On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:37:53 -0500, Gnu_Raiz
    > <Gnu_Raiz@uptime.notlost.net> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:50:32 -0400, Tony Hill wrote:
    >>> Did you even *READ* that article? If so, can you please explain to me
    >>> how, in ANY possible way, copy protection built into modern releases
    >>> of music products has even the slightest connection to a legal
    >>> download of Mandrake?
    >>
    >>I look at it from the point of view that Bittorent is a tool, anytime
    >>someone has a method of reducing your ability to use that tool in my book
    >>is bad. I wish more people would use Bittorent to cut costs, and welcome
    >>any Distro for using it.
    >
    > The people reducing the ability to use Bittorent as a tool are those
    > using it to illegally distribute copyrighted material. The RIAA and
    > MPAA have every reason to be opposed to that as it is straight-up
    > illegal. While I often disagree with the methods they use to fight
    > such crimes and I absolutely refuse to buy some of their "copy
    > protected" CDs, there's absolutely no argument anyone can make to say
    > that they shouldn't be trying to prevent this copyright infringement.
    >
    >> I thought Slashdot did a good job of bringing
    >>out the fears of people in the threads, no need to go over that, I just
    >>said it was possible. I think my worries are justified, by looking at
    >>this article.
    >>http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/23341.htm
    >
    > You're worries are only justified here if you're illegally
    > distributing (or in this case, selling) copyrighted material to which
    > you do not have a license.
    >
    > -------------
    > Tony Hill
    > hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

    My take on the article is not the fact that the **AA have the right to go
    after copyright infringement, but the fact they paid someone after the
    fact. It comes down to illegal activities, the cops took a bribe.

    from the **AA point of view they would love to ban all distributing
    methods, that by pass them, as well as fair rights use. Just look over
    the battle of PVR, DVR's, Tivo's and fast forwarding. Say I record a TV
    show and take out all the commercials, then I want to share that with my
    buddies, why should I not be allowed to do that? Or say I make a backup of
    a DVD and a friend wants to borrow it, according to your definition of
    distribution this would be illegal.

    As one who uses Usenet I thought the free exchange of ideals and
    information would be something worth protecting. We should try to break
    down barriers of entrance, not build them up.

    This could all become moot anyway as video blogs start to become more of a
    presence, as well as Internet TV shows. The more the net is used for such
    methods the bigger the change will happen, as others have stated if it is
    a problem here, it will be developed some where else. As far as I am
    concerned as long as they makes huge profits year after year, how has this
    illegal distribution hurt them? Where is the loss that is effecting their
    business?

    Gnu_Raiz
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    chrisv wrote:
    > Tony Hill wrote:
    >
    >
    >>As mentioned previously, I still refuse
    >>to purchase any CD that has copy protection built in due to all the
    >>problems they cause
    >
    >
    > How do you tell, before you buy?
    >

    I don't know about Tony, but I simply ask the clerk at the store
    to demonstrate for me on one of their computers that the CD is
    playable on a PC. Music stores are usually happy to oblige, but
    employees at a place like Walmart won't.

    I have *no* stand-alone CD player at home. Any CD I buy *must*
    be playable in the DVD burner in my computer.
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:48:00 -0400, Robert Myers wrote:

    > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 06:16:55 -0400, George Macdonald
    > <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:09:39 -0400, Robert Myers <rmyers1400@comcast.net>
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:35:45 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:20 +0200, Grumble wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Tony Hill wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> My understanding is that nVidia's "hardware" firewall on their latest
    >>>>>> nForce chipsets uses a very stripped down part of the Linux firewall
    >>>>>> code for this very purpose.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That means they would have to release source code with the firewall
    >>>>> drivers. Is it the case? Where have you seen mention of Linux?
    >>>>
    >>>>They'd only have to release the source of anything that uses the tainted
    >>>>libraries. Not all Linux device drivers are open source. If they did
    >>>>release the source it would be a good thing for security (and wouldn't
    >>>>compormise their IP, I don't think), but I don't see any hard requirement
    >>>>that they do.
    >>>>
    >>>>> I don't think nVidia has released any specs.
    >>>>> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-42202.html
    >>>
    >>>That means that the hardware reproduces the functionality of iptables?
    >>>I don't think nvidia would have a very hard time reproducing it from
    >>>scratch. No point in getting tangled up with GPL code (eh, George?).
    >>
    >>Seems I'm not alone - eh?
    >
    > Software in silicon is a big mushy area, and I'm not sure I understand
    > it all. If they *did* use iptables, does that make the verilog (or
    > whatever) a derived work? I think it does.

    I wasn't suggesting that one build other's IP into hardware as a way to
    skirt the law, rather build enough IP into the silicon that giving away
    the software is a smart move. If someone wants to support your hardware,
    fine.

    --
    Keith
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:00:59 -0400, Tony Hill
    <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:

    >On 21 Apr 2005 07:55:29 -0700, "YKhan" <yjkhan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Wasn't thinking of using an x86 as a second processor, but as the
    >>primary processor inside these routers. One of the first routers that I
    >>had was an old Dlink 4-port ethernet. I opened it up, and found inside
    >>it was an AMD 186 embedded chip. So x86 has been used inside these
    >>things before. Imagine an Opteron embedded chip instead?
    >
    >Huh? Why bother with a $100+ Opteron embedded chip when a $2 ARM chip
    >will do just as well with a fraction of the power consumption? There
    >really isn't much processor required for most of these firewalls, you
    >could probably even pull it off without too much trouble on a 16-bit
    >microcontroller, though a 32-bit one might be preferable. Probably
    >all you would need could be handled through ucLinux, so software and
    >development time shouldn't take too much. Something like QNX is
    >probably overkill (cost wise at least) for such a setup.
    >
    >-------------
    >Tony Hill
    >hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca

    Here is some straightforward evidence to add to the debate. As a
    direct result of this thread, I replaced my Belkin router with an old
    Dell Optiplex GX1 computer. P1 cpu at 133 mhz, 96 megabytes of
    memory, running Ipcop 1.4.5. Overnight last night, I was pulling some
    big files down from Usenet. Newsleecher was running 6 connections (2
    each to 3 separate usenet providers), total bandwidth here is 3Mbit
    DSL. Now if you look at this graph

    http://www.nobigdeal.org/cpu-day.png

    you can see the amount of cpu horsepower required for the job. The
    peak was almost 80% of the available cpu, and this on a P1 133 mhz
    with only 6 connections driven. My rather vague understanding of Bit
    Torrent indicates there could be a LOT more than 6 simultaneous
    connections. I am already thinking of moving Ipcop to a faster cpu.
    I have a junk HP motherboard with a Celeron 600, unfortunately it
    won't fit in this proprietary-but-small Dell case. It's a real shame
    that micro-ATX cases cost at least twice as much as a standard ATX
    case.
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:30:26 -0500, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
    wrote:

    >Tony Hill wrote:
    >
    >>As mentioned previously, I still refuse
    >>to purchase any CD that has copy protection built in due to all the
    >>problems they cause
    >
    >How do you tell, before you buy?

    In most countries the CD will have a warning label on it saying that
    it "might not" (read "won't") play in certain computer systems or MP3
    car stereos. If not, I'll sometimes ask the clerk. It hasn't been an
    issue yet, but if I did happen to buy a CD with copy protection, I
    would return it immediately and make sure that the reason why I was
    returning it was clear.

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:34:10 -0500, Henry Nettles
    <hnettles@hal-pc.org> wrote:

    >On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:00:59 -0400, Tony Hill
    ><hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:
    >
    >>Huh? Why bother with a $100+ Opteron embedded chip when a $2 ARM chip
    >>will do just as well with a fraction of the power consumption? There
    >>really isn't much processor required for most of these firewalls, you
    >>could probably even pull it off without too much trouble on a 16-bit
    >>microcontroller, though a 32-bit one might be preferable. Probably
    >>all you would need could be handled through ucLinux, so software and
    >>development time shouldn't take too much. Something like QNX is
    >>probably overkill (cost wise at least) for such a setup.
    >
    >Here is some straightforward evidence to add to the debate. As a
    >direct result of this thread, I replaced my Belkin router with an old
    >Dell Optiplex GX1 computer. P1 cpu at 133 mhz, 96 megabytes of
    >memory, running Ipcop 1.4.5. Overnight last night, I was pulling some
    >big files down from Usenet. Newsleecher was running 6 connections (2
    >each to 3 separate usenet providers), total bandwidth here is 3Mbit
    >DSL. Now if you look at this graph
    >
    >http://www.nobigdeal.org/cpu-day.png
    >
    >you can see the amount of cpu horsepower required for the job. The
    >peak was almost 80% of the available cpu, and this on a P1 133 mhz
    >with only 6 connections driven. My rather vague understanding of Bit
    >Torrent indicates there could be a LOT more than 6 simultaneous
    >connections. I am already thinking of moving Ipcop to a faster cpu.
    >I have a junk HP motherboard with a Celeron 600, unfortunately it
    >won't fit in this proprietary-but-small Dell case. It's a real shame
    >that micro-ATX cases cost at least twice as much as a standard ATX
    >case.

    Are you running PCI NICs on that setup? I ran a very similar system,
    except using a full-fledge Debian GNU/Linux install, on a Pentium 100
    for several years and almost never saw the CPU usage exceed 10%, even
    when I had several people sharing this network and running plenty of
    P2P connections. The only time it ever got up there was when I needed
    to throw an ISA NIC into the machine. Err, that and when I was trying
    to recompile the kernel (though even then it didn't seem to drop
    packets).

    -------------
    Tony Hill
    hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    jack wrote:

    >To be honest I didn't notice the sticker until after I got home and
    >examined the CD closer.

    I buy most of my CD's from Amazon...
  49. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (More info?)

    Tony Hill <hilla_nospam_20@yahoo.ca> wrote:
    >>personal experience: in 37 years as a recording artist, I've
    >>created 25+ albums for major labels, and I've never once
    >>received a royalty check that didn't show I owed them money."
    >
    > Yup, this story has been echoed by others in the music industry. In
    > fact, even some fairly big name recording artists have found that they
    > really aren't making any money from record sales anymore. Instead
    > they use their record sales almost like a marketing tool to sell their
    > music in other ways. Take someone like Moby, who has several platinum
    > selling records to his name. He's become the master of licensing his
    > music into commercials, movies, TV, etc.

    AFAIK artists receive ~0.50 US$/CD. So 500 k$ for a platinum
    seller. The same stars can make that in one live performance.
    They cut CDs to support their Tours, although the record companies
    see it the other way because their margin is ~4.00 US$/CD.

    -- Robert
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