Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips (
More info?)
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 04:22:38 -0700, dk_ <nobody@spamless.com> wrote:
>In article <ddh9g15jflqoitkpkcddsegmt3bl3uub0e@4ax.com>,
> George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:42:54 -0700, dk_ <nobody@spamless.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <51g9f1dll6ogdtqik72scnuii2il6asfhv@4ax.com>,
>> > George Macdonald <fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Regarding the discussion below about x8 and x16... you point out that
>> >> >these 2 numbers don't refer to the number of chips on a stick; I
>> >> >haven't see any FAQ's, or discussions, using those two numbers, so I
>> >> >assumed the numbers were referring to the obvious number of chips on a
>> >> >stick and that they should be the same # on each stick.
>> >>
>> >> For same-size DIMMs, the effect is the same of course. If you look up any
>> >> memory chip Data Sheets, you'll see that they commonly come in x8 and x16
>> >> data widths for desktop system DIMMs and x4 and x32 for other applications.
>
>If I understand correctly, that for my purposes (i.e., to get two 512 MB
>DIMMS to run in Dual Channel Mode), the follwoing will work...
>
>I have two 512 MB PC3200 DIMMS, each are populated with #8 chips on each
>side. I believe that is what you would refer to as x8 data width (which
>is also #16 chips on each DIMM <<-->> #8 per side). Right? ...I hope so.
>
Yes that's correct - probably the most common DIMM configuration
>> >Thank you for all the info and details.
>> >
>> >I have been searching to find how I can identify or recognize 'data
>> >widths' for each DRAM stick. How can I tell if the stick is x8 or x16.
>>
>> Hmm, I hope I haven't caused more confusion than I wanted here... more
>> detail than you need. By stick, do you mean module?.... i.e. DIMM? They
>
>It has been confusing and challenging. x8 and #8 per side,
>
>
>> are all 64-bits wide and the only *chips* you can populate them with in
>
>Does that mean 64-bits wide per side? (I am getting more and more
>confused.)
Yes - think of *Dual* Inline Memory Module... what DIMM means, i.e. dual
sided.
>> Intel's desktop chipset specs are either all x8 or all x16 bits wide on any
>> given module. IOW you can count the chips per DIMM side and know the width
>> of the chips: 8 chips per side means each side (rank) has x8 wide chips.;
>> if there were only four chips on a side they'd have to be x16 wide chips.
>>
>> >In order for dual channel mode to work, some sources say the 'data
>> >widths' must match, and some sources make no mention of this.
>>
>> That makes sense. It's a pity that a few charlatans have dumped odd-ball
>> configurations on the market with all chips, on both sides of a DIMM, being
>> used to make up the 64-bit wide bus - IOW 8 chips on each side grouped as
>> 16 chips which are each x4 bits wide. That's the one to avoid at all costs
>> - sometimes known as a "high density *module*"
>
>Huh? ...You just lost me here with the math. What would that DIMM look
>like? (What does 8 chips one each side grouped as 16 chips mean???)
Basically it means that there are DIMMs out there - of dubious origin -
where the "manufacturer" connects all 16 chips to only one side of the DIMM
- it's possible to do that with x4 wide memory chips but it violates the
formal DIMM specs. As long as you buy a reputable brand, you won't have
any risk of getting those.
>> >I have searched the term 'DRAM bus width', and so far I can find no
>> >practical informaltion.
>>
>> Well, again, the DRAM channel bus width is always 64-bits wide - it's the
>> number of chips used to get there that's important. DRAM chip Data Sheets,
>> which you can download from www.micron.com contain much more info than you
>> need but a quick glance will illustrate the different chips available.
>
>I did look at a sheet from Micon which totally confused me.
>
>The sheet:
> "512 MB: x4, x8, x16 DDR SDRAM."
>
> 32 meg x4 x4 banks (...what are banks?)
> 16 meg x8 x4 banks
> 8 meg x16 x4 banks
>
>Again, huh?
Yes - you can see the x4, x8 & x16 I've been talking about. The x4 chips
should not be used in unbuffered DIMMs for PC system memory.
Since the early days of SDRAM, all memory chips have had 4 banks, apart
from the first 16Mbit chips which had two. By keeping all four banks
"open" the chipset can manage "interleaved" accesses to the different banks
for a general speed-up of pseudo-random memory accesses.
>> Did the extra DIMM you bought not work in dual-channel along with the
>> original DIMM which came with the system? While it's possible that it
>> could, to avoid possibly playing roulette again, the only way to be sure
>> spec-wise is to buy a couple of identically spec'd DIMMs from say
>> www.crucial.com where you can enter the mfr and model number of your system
>> and get a recommendation.
>
>I did buy a pair, (but I returned the set). They were Mushkin, green
>line. The chips looked very poorly made. There was absolutly no marking
>or labeling on the chips. The look of the DIMMS made me nervous.
Poorly made chips? How can you tell?
It's becoming more common to see
DIMMs where the module mfr has obliterated the chip markings - counters
some of the prejudiced folklore on chip sources. Mushkin does have a good
reputation AFAIK.
>I then purchased one PNY 512 MB DIMM (that looks well manufactured). It
>has #8 chips per side, (#16 total), which is the same physical
>configuration as the DIMM that came with the machine.
>
>The BIOS in my machine does not indicate anything about 'currently
>running' in either dual or single channel mode. So I have no way to know
>how the RAM is functioning other than having run the Memtest-86 test for
>2 rounds with no errors.
>
>How can I determine if the machine is running in dual-channel mode?
On my AMD system I get a line in the BIOS startup screen which gives
current memory timings and a data width of 128-bit. I don't know about
your's or any Intel dual channel chipsets for that matter, since I've never
actually worked with one. You could try the Sandra benchmarking suite
which may give the effective memory channel width in one of its info
modules... and you should be able to see the difference in measured
bandwidth with its performance check.
>Intel's web site says, (for a number of specific m-boards), that in
>order to run in 'dual-channel mode', the following is *not required*:
>
> Do NOT need: same brand, same timing specs, or same DDR speed.
>
> *Do* need same DRAM bus width (x8 or x16).
> All either single-sided, or all dual sided.
>
>Infineon and Kingston say "Matching" modules means:
> Both (DIMMS) have the same number of chips and module sides, (e.g.
>both have the same number of chips on the module, and both are either
>single-sided or double sided.)
Sounds like it should be working for you.
--
Rgds, George Macdonald