PCI-Express question...

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Hi folks!

I am thinking of building myself a computer using,

1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU)
2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard)
3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram)
4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive)
5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's hardware
guide, it is one of the best for now.

As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't decide
if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come out, or I should
just build the computer now simply using what is available, meaning

6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet on
which one to use...

The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express
ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs.

I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it be
PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X connection? When
you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with PCI-Express connection.

The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video cards
come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers PCI-Express
slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology? I don't think
PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a normal PCI slot on the
motherboard. The common sense tells me that the motherboard has to
accommodate the new PCI-Express video card technology in order to take
advantage of this new advanced feature.

Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is capable of
16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though the current AGP
only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere near 8X. So, 8X is
not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will not provide any
improvement in that perspective. Does PCI-Express have anything else to
offer other than 16X so that it makes it a revolutionary advancement over
AGP slot?

Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and
motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first generation
new technology because it is not used and tested enough by the consumers to
provide perfection without "constant problems". Since PCI-Express is a new
technology, if you rush into it and build your new computer on a system that
is not proven to be reliable, you might suffer some overall system
unreliability. It is better to give some time, maybe a year or two so that
the new technology becomes a standard and widespread overall among other
manufacturers.

I like to hear about your input so that I can make better judgment on the
issue as I am only guessing depending on what I read.

Thanks.

--
Ryan Atici
8 answers Last reply
More about express question
  1. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    >The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express
    >ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of GPUs.

    Correction:

    The question I have is that, on the Nvidia website, it says that Nvidia 6800
    GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
    6800 series of GPUs.

    Sorry for the typo...
  2. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in that
    format.

    That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed benefit
    to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games. No videocard
    today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth available in AGP 8x.
    There's a negligible difference between 8x and 4x.

    Since you're building a new system.. it *may* be worth getting a PCI-Express
    system. Don't expect your system to be any faster than it would if an AGP
    version for gaming, however. PCI-Express (in the immediate future, again)
    will really only benefit people dealing with very large files (video
    editing, etc), or other bus-heavy activities, since the OTHER things in your
    system will benefit from the increased bandwidth of PCI-Express, not the
    videocard.

    Eventually, we may need PCI-Express, but even with today's fastest
    processors.. the 6800Ultras and ATI X800XTPE are still CPU-bound. A faster
    bus isn't going to fix that. :D

    Just my opinion, of course.

    "Ryan Atici" <atici_ryan_OSMANLI@hotpop.com> wrote in message
    news:2qccemFtcam6U1@uni-berlin.de...
    >
    >>The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is PCI-Express
    >>ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within 6800 series of
    >>GPUs.
    >
    > Correction:
    >
    > The question I have is that, on the Nvidia website, it says that Nvidia
    > 6800
    > GPU is PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
    > 6800 series of GPUs.
    >
    > Sorry for the typo...
    >
    >
  3. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    RaceFace wrote:
    > Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in
    > that format.
    >
    > That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed
    > benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games.
    > No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth
    > available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and
    > 4x.

    That may not be entirely accurate. Your statement is sort of accurate in
    and of itself, but PCI Express + Two NvIdia PCI Express cards running tandem
    is in the near future through their SLI technology.
    http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040812_174414.html
  4. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    "twobirds" <notareal@eaddy.com> wrote in message
    news:n9KdnQIDlq1TrtzcRVn-jg@bresnan.com...
    > RaceFace wrote:
    >> Any GPU could take advantage of PCI-Express, if they build a card in
    >> that format.
    >>
    >> That said, in the immediate future, PCI-Express will offer NO speed
    >> benefit to gaming, playing games, or anything else to do with games.
    >> No videocard today even comes close to utilizing the full bandwidth
    >> available in AGP 8x. There's a negligible difference between 8x and
    >> 4x.
    >
    > That may not be entirely accurate. Your statement is sort of accurate in
    > and of itself, but PCI Express + Two NvIdia PCI Express cards running
    > tandem
    > is in the near future through their SLI technology.
    > http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040812_174414.html

    Oooh, yah. That wonderful thing. If one 6800Ultra (heck, even 6800GTs in a
    lot of machines) is CPU-bound (on every machine out there), how is your CPU
    going to be able to feed two of them (even if it's feeding each half the
    stuff) quickly enough? The extra code needed to split up the data stream
    will surely take some CPU overhead as well. Their wonderful new
    implementation of SLI is just a way to get people to shell out huge amounts
    of money. In 2 years we may have a system that could take advantage of SLI,
    but not now. And the OP would have to buy a new motherboard anyway, because
    the next gen CPUs will have different pin layouts. :D

    Just my opinion. :D
  5. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    "Ryan Atici" <atici_ryan_OSMANLI@hotpop.com> wrote in
    news:2qcc4qFtfsdjU1@uni-berlin.de:

    > Hi folks!
    >
    > I am thinking of building myself a computer using,
    >
    > 1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU)
    > 2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard)
    > 3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram)
    > 4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive)
    > 5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's
    > hardware guide, it is one of the best for now.
    >
    > As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't
    > decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come
    > out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is
    > available, meaning
    >
    > 6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet
    > on which one to use...
    >
    > The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is
    > PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
    > 6800 series of GPUs.
    >
    > I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it
    > be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X
    > connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with
    > PCI-Express connection.


    AGP and PCI-Express are not compatible. You cannot put an AGP card into
    a PCI-Express slot and you can't put a PCI-Express card into an AGP
    slot. That being said, I would wait for a PCI-Express card. Your system
    is already new technology that will be apgradable for at least a couple
    of years. I am specifically refering to Socket-939. If you get an AGP
    card you may not be able to get a good upgrade card for more than
    another year if that long. Who knows how much longer AGP will last.
    Anybody know if ATI or NVIDIA are planning any new cards with AGP? If
    not then the 6800 or x800 may be the best card you'll ever put in an AGP
    system. AGP is a dying technology. If you can afford it, don't buy into
    something that will be gone when you want to upgrade.

    >
    > The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video
    > cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers
    > PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology?

    Yes. A PCI-Express card will require a x16 PCI-Express slot.

    > I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a
    > normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the
    > motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card
    > technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature.

    That's correct. The PCI-Express video card will be x16 speed and the
    normal slots will be x1 speed to start. You cannot place a PCI-Express
    video card in a regular (x1) PCI-Express slot and you cannot place a
    PCI-Express video card in a non-PCI-Express PCI slot. (Old)PCI and
    PCI-Express are not compatible.

    > Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is
    > capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though
    > the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere
    > near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will
    > not provide any improvement in that perspective.

    Video bus bandwidth has traditionally outstripped CPU-GPU bandwidth
    requirements and PCI-Express is much faster than AGP so this will remain
    true with CPI-Express. For now PCI-Express will not offer anything new.
    Potentially the additional bandwidth, video and otherwise, will help
    system performance. I suspect that offering PCI-Express AND AGP is a
    'pain in the rear' from an engineering stand point. I know I wouldn't
    want to have to support both of these busses on the same motherboard. So
    the obvious/expedient choice is to make all slots variants of
    PCI-Express. Besides, the hole point of PCI-Express is to replace the
    old PCI/AGP bus. Nobody wants to add another bus to the list they
    currently support. For now that means 1x PCI-Express slots for regular
    slots (modems, NIC's, soundcards, etc.) and x16 PCI-Express slots for
    video cards.

    > Does PCI-Express have
    > anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a
    > revolutionary advancement over AGP slot?

    For now PCI-Express offers enigneers an easier time designing and
    building motherboards because of fewer lines to route. For consumers
    PCI-Express offers the best potential for upgrading their system in the
    future since regular PCI and AGP are going to become obsolete. For both
    PCI-Express offers the potential for higher performance systems in the
    future.

    > Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and
    > motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first
    > generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by
    > the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since
    > PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your
    > new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might
    > suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some
    > time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a
    > standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers.

    I agree to a point but you should also consider what your options will
    be when you next need to upgrade. If, at upgrade time, you will not care
    about the cost of a new motherboard and video card (and maybe memory and
    cpu) to support PCI-Express then this is a none issue. If you will care
    about the cost of a new motherboard and video card then consider getting
    the new stuff now.
  6. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    JS wrote:

    > "Ryan Atici" <atici_ryan_OSMANLI@hotpop.com> wrote in
    > news:2qcc4qFtfsdjU1@uni-berlin.de:
    >
    >> Hi folks!
    >>
    >> I am thinking of building myself a computer using,
    >>
    >> 1- AMD Athlon 64 FX-53 (Socket 939 CPU)
    >> 2- Asus A8V Deluxe (Motherboard)
    >> 3- Kingston 1GB 400MHz DDR PC3200 ECC DIMM 3-3-3 (Ram)
    >> 4- Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA (Hard Drive)
    >> 5- BenQ's DW-1600A (8.5GB Dual layer DVD burner) According to Tom's
    >> hardware guide, it is one of the best for now.
    >>
    >> As for video card, because of the new PCI-Express technology, I can't
    >> decide if I should wait until the new PCI-Express video cards come
    >> out, or I should just build the computer now simply using what is
    >> available, meaning
    >>
    >> 6- Nvidia 6800 Ultra Extreme or ATI RADEON X800. I haven't decided yet
    >> on which one to use...
    >>
    >> The question I have is that, on the Nvidia Nvidia 6800 GPU is
    >> PCI-Express ready, meaning that it has built-in PCI-Express within
    >> 6800 series of GPUs.
    >>
    >> I am having a bit hard time understanding how so... because how can it
    >> be PCI-Express ready when the video card still has an AGP-8X
    >> connection? When you say PCI-Express, I think of video card with
    >> PCI-Express connection.
    >
    >
    > AGP and PCI-Express are not compatible. You cannot put an AGP card into
    > a PCI-Express slot and you can't put a PCI-Express card into an AGP
    > slot. That being said, I would wait for a PCI-Express card. Your system
    > is already new technology that will be apgradable for at least a couple
    > of years. I am specifically refering to Socket-939. If you get an AGP
    > card you may not be able to get a good upgrade card for more than
    > another year if that long. Who knows how much longer AGP will last.
    > Anybody know if ATI or NVIDIA are planning any new cards with AGP? If
    > not then the 6800 or x800 may be the best card you'll ever put in an AGP
    > system. AGP is a dying technology. If you can afford it, don't buy into
    > something that will be gone when you want to upgrade.
    >
    >>
    >> The second issue is the motherboard. When the PCI-Express socket video
    >> cards come out, Don't we have to buy a new motherboard that offers
    >> PCI-Express slot so that it can take advantage of this new technology?
    >
    > Yes. A PCI-Express card will require a x16 PCI-Express slot.
    >
    >> I don't think PCI-Express video card will work if you put it in a
    >> normal PCI slot on the motherboard. The common sense tells me that the
    >> motherboard has to accommodate the new PCI-Express video card
    >> technology in order to take advantage of this new advanced feature.
    >
    > That's correct. The PCI-Express video card will be x16 speed and the
    > normal slots will be x1 speed to start. You cannot place a PCI-Express
    > video card in a regular (x1) PCI-Express slot and you cannot place a
    > PCI-Express video card in a non-PCI-Express PCI slot. (Old)PCI and
    > PCI-Express are not compatible.
    >
    >> Last but not least, AGP video card use 8X whereas PCI-Express is
    >> capable of 16X, but as I read on the web and understand, even though
    >> the current AGP only offers 8X, no games comes close to using anywhere
    >> near 8X. So, 8X is not the bottle neck. Meaning, that PCI-Express will
    >> not provide any improvement in that perspective.
    >
    > Video bus bandwidth has traditionally outstripped CPU-GPU bandwidth
    > requirements and PCI-Express is much faster than AGP so this will remain
    > true with CPI-Express. For now PCI-Express will not offer anything new.
    > Potentially the additional bandwidth, video and otherwise, will help
    > system performance. I suspect that offering PCI-Express AND AGP is a
    > 'pain in the rear' from an engineering stand point.

    For Intel-based systems maybe. For AMD64 put PCI Express on one link and
    PCI/AGP on another.

    > I know I wouldn't
    > want to have to support both of these busses on the same motherboard. So
    > the obvious/expedient choice is to make all slots variants of
    > PCI-Express. Besides, the hole point of PCI-Express is to replace the
    > old PCI/AGP bus. Nobody wants to add another bus to the list they
    > currently support. For now that means 1x PCI-Express slots for regular
    > slots (modems, NIC's, soundcards, etc.) and x16 PCI-Express slots for
    > video cards.
    >
    >> Does PCI-Express have
    >> anything else to offer other than 16X so that it makes it a
    >> revolutionary advancement over AGP slot?
    >
    > For now PCI-Express offers enigneers an easier time designing and
    > building motherboards because of fewer lines to route.

    That's the claim. PCI-X achieves 4.8 GB/sec with 184 contacts. PCI Express
    X8 offers about the same with 98. But guess what. PCI-X is a bus--those
    same traces will serve one board or 6. PCI-X is point to point. 32 of
    those traces have to be duplicated for a second board. So a machine with 2
    PCI-Express X16 slots needs 196 traces routed. And with 6 it would need
    192 traces just for the signalling pairs without regard to grounds or
    power.

    But how about just regular PCI? Well, bandwidth on that is about 1 GB/sec
    with 124 contacts. That's the same as PCI Express x2. But X2 is not going
    to be available on any board that is going to be shipping in the
    foreseeable future, instead there will be X1, with half the bandwidth of
    regular PCI, or X4 with twice the bandwidth on 64 contacts, 16 of which
    have to be duplicated for each slot. So for 6 x4 slots we have 96 traces
    to route in addition to the ones that all slots share.

    So in the real world it doesn't look like PCI Express is going to make board
    design any simpler.

    > For consumers
    > PCI-Express offers the best potential for upgrading their system in the
    > future since regular PCI and AGP are going to become obsolete.

    If Intel gets their way.

    > For both
    > PCI-Express offers the potential for higher performance systems in the
    > future.

    Higher than what? By the time something comes along that would have
    saturated PCI-X Intel will be phasing out PCI Express in favor of some new
    manuactured fad.

    >> Part of me says that even though the PCI-Express video cards and
    >> motherboards come out in a few months, Don't rush into any first
    >> generation new technology because it is not used and tested enough by
    >> the consumers to provide perfection without "constant problems". Since
    >> PCI-Express is a new technology, if you rush into it and build your
    >> new computer on a system that is not proven to be reliable, you might
    >> suffer some overall system unreliability. It is better to give some
    >> time, maybe a year or two so that the new technology becomes a
    >> standard and widespread overall among other manufacturers.
    >
    > I agree to a point but you should also consider what your options will
    > be when you next need to upgrade. If, at upgrade time, you will not care
    > about the cost of a new motherboard and video card (and maybe memory and
    > cpu) to support PCI-Express then this is a none issue. If you will care
    > about the cost of a new motherboard and video card then consider getting
    > the new stuff now.

    That's the problem, you can't get the new stuff now. Not for AMD-64. You
    have to choose between a bleeding-edge bus that's likely going to cause
    problems or a not-quite-bleeding-edge processor with proven performance.
    Everybody's promising PCI Express on AMD-64 Real Soon Now but nobody's
    committed to a date beyond "Q4" which may mean that chips will be available
    anytime between Oct 1 and Dec 31 if anybod meets their deadline, with
    motherboards available some time after.

    --
    --John
    Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
  7. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    RaceFace wrote:

    > Their wonderful new implementation of SLI is just a way to
    > get people to shell out huge amounts of money. In 2 years
    > we may have a system that could take advantage of SLI,
    > but not now.

    It's the perfect thing. Of course you will need a window in your case to
    show them off. I even wonder whether a window will cut it, I would rather
    have the cards be so big that they won't fit in the case and then have open
    slots in the cabinet that allow them to stick out so there won't be any
    question as to whether my friends and family will be impressed as they enter
    the room.

    Another added benefit of SLI is that you will definitely need more power,
    more cooling and that you'll have more noise, attracting more attention to
    your monster machine. I think it's a wonderful idea, can't wait till it gets
    on the market, this is real progress.

    Martin.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

    I like to continue this thread with another question if I may...

    I assume that, if not all, many of you have Serial ATA hard drives in your
    computers.

    I like to raise this question, rather a concern for me. I like to put 3
    "Western Digital 74GB 10,000 RPM Enterprise Serial ATA" hard drives in my
    new system that I want to build. I am planning to install 3 different
    operating systems on each hard drive.
    1- First serial ATA drive will have Windows XP Professional
    2- Second serial ATA; Windows 98 Second Edition
    3- Third serial ATA; Linux operating system.

    In old motherboards with IDE hard drive connection, the CMOS of the
    motherboard gives you an option to choose boot sequence so that you can boot
    up from any one of the hard drives of your choice, which is what I have in
    my old computer.

    I've never had any personal experience with new motherboards with built-in
    Serial ATA connection, but the information that I am getting is that the
    CMOS in ASUS motherboards doesn't offer you any option to choose boot
    sequence for serial ATA hard drives. Does that apply to all ASUS
    motherboards? Or ASUS corrected that problem in their current motherboards?
    If not, how about other motherboard like ABIT, Gigabyte, MSI, Tyan? Do any
    of those motherboards offer boot-up sequence option for Serial ATA hard
    drives? I mean, why not offer an option to choose boot sequence in CMOS in
    new motherboards for Serial ATA hard drives? If none of the new motherboards
    with built-in Serial ATA hard drive connection offer boot-up sequence in
    CMOS, how do you boot up the hard drive of your choice if you have more than
    one hard drive with difference operating systems?

    Thanks...

    --
    Ryan Atici
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