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Slow CPU, decent card, is it worth?

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October 21, 2004 6:50:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Hi,

I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:

PIII 866
ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
256MB SDRAM
80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
Creative Vibra 128
Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB

The TNT2, however lame (even when I got it! though I didn't know
then...), has served me well. I have played Max Payne, NOLF, UT2003,
UT2004 demo, RTCW, Half-Life, etc. using this card - mostly at
800x600x16..which I am okay with.
I know many of you hardcore gamers love to play at the highest
possible resolutions with FSAA and AF turned on; I am satisfied with
the content of the game and a decent frame rate, don't care much about
bells and whistles.

I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
me for the next 3-4 years.
I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
rate.

I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
decent performance?

Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!

Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?

Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?


Thanks in advance! :) 
Anonymous
October 21, 2004 12:03:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Pointless to upgrade that system. Either of the two video cards you mention
won't improve performance that much, because the CPU/RAM will hold them back
immensely.

Save your money, and buy a new system when you can.

"Sammy" <sameer.bhiwani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2163fbe.0410210150.5eb1937f@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:
>
> PIII 866
> ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
> 256MB SDRAM
> 80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
> Creative Vibra 128
> Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB
>
> The TNT2, however lame (even when I got it! though I didn't know
> then...), has served me well. I have played Max Payne, NOLF, UT2003,
> UT2004 demo, RTCW, Half-Life, etc. using this card - mostly at
> 800x600x16..which I am okay with.
> I know many of you hardcore gamers love to play at the highest
> possible resolutions with FSAA and AF turned on; I am satisfied with
> the content of the game and a decent frame rate, don't care much about
> bells and whistles.
>
> I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
> me for the next 3-4 years.
> I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
> now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
> At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
> that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
> rate.
>
> I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
> decent performance?
>
> Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
> approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
> 10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
> 40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!
>
> Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?
>
> Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?
>
>
> Thanks in advance! :) 
Anonymous
October 21, 2004 5:09:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Sammy" <sameer.bhiwani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2163fbe.0410210150.5eb1937f@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:
>
> PIII 866
> ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
> 256MB SDRAM
> 80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
> Creative Vibra 128
> Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB

Ah, the good old TNT2 :-)

(...)

> I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
> me for the next 3-4 years.
> I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
> now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
> At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
> that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
> rate.
>
> I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
> decent performance?

I would steer clear of these two cards since they are not equipped to handle
shaderintensive games like Far Cry and the upcoming Halflife 2.

> Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
> approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
> 10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
> 40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!

Your CPU is most definitely a bottleneck. Pentium 4 Northwoods on the Socket
478 platform are pretty cheap right now. Yiu should be able to get a 3 GHz
and motherboard for an affordable price.

> Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?

Only if it's AGP 1.5 v compliant.

> Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?

You need an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro as a minimum if the card is going to last a
while. But be sure to upgrade your CPU and motherboard as well, otherwise
you won't be able to unleash the full potential of the card.
---
Anders
Related resources
Anonymous
October 21, 2004 5:09:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:09:13 +0200, "Hr. Albrechtsen" <nooen@noone.dk>
wrote:

>Your CPU is most definitely a bottleneck. Pentium 4 Northwoods on the Socket
>478 platform are pretty cheap right now. Yiu should be able to get a 3 GHz
>and motherboard for an affordable price.

Don't forget new memory and (likely) a new PS.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Anonymous
October 21, 2004 5:54:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Find a second-hand GF4-Ti for your old p3 and save your money for a
new CPU/board/case/ram combo since most of the new board next year
will likely be PCI-E without an AGP slot.

>I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
>me for the next 3-4 years.
>I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
>now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
>At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
>that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
>rate.
October 21, 2004 6:28:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"RaceFace" <nospam@myplace.com> wrote in message
news:1tOdd.609$td5.4633@news1.mts.net...
>
> Pointless to upgrade that system. Either of the two video cards you
> mention won't improve performance that much, because the CPU/RAM will hold
> them back immensely.
>
> Save your money, and buy a new system when you can.

I completely agree.

Any money "invested" on that system is a waste of money. If you want any
components that will last you another 3 or 4 years then they need to be
really high-end components. And they either won't work on your current
system, or won't deliver anything like enough benefit for the money.

Save your dosh and buy a new PC when you can.

Chip


> "Sammy" <sameer.bhiwani@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b2163fbe.0410210150.5eb1937f@posting.google.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:
>>
>> PIII 866
>> ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
>> 256MB SDRAM
>> 80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
>> Creative Vibra 128
>> Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB
>>
>> The TNT2, however lame (even when I got it! though I didn't know
>> then...), has served me well. I have played Max Payne, NOLF, UT2003,
>> UT2004 demo, RTCW, Half-Life, etc. using this card - mostly at
>> 800x600x16..which I am okay with.
>> I know many of you hardcore gamers love to play at the highest
>> possible resolutions with FSAA and AF turned on; I am satisfied with
>> the content of the game and a decent frame rate, don't care much about
>> bells and whistles.
>>
>> I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
>> me for the next 3-4 years.
>> I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
>> now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
>> At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
>> that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
>> rate.
>>
>> I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
>> decent performance?
>>
>> Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
>> approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
>> 10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
>> 40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!
>>
>> Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?
>>
>> Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance! :) 
>
>
Anonymous
October 22, 2004 3:24:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

The video card would be dramatically bottle-necked by your CPU's speed
mismatch. I would start saving your money for a more long term solution.

--
DaveW



"Sammy" <sameer.bhiwani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2163fbe.0410210150.5eb1937f@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:
>
> PIII 866
> ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
> 256MB SDRAM
> 80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
> Creative Vibra 128
> Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB
>
> The TNT2, however lame (even when I got it! though I didn't know
> then...), has served me well. I have played Max Payne, NOLF, UT2003,
> UT2004 demo, RTCW, Half-Life, etc. using this card - mostly at
> 800x600x16..which I am okay with.
> I know many of you hardcore gamers love to play at the highest
> possible resolutions with FSAA and AF turned on; I am satisfied with
> the content of the game and a decent frame rate, don't care much about
> bells and whistles.
>
> I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
> me for the next 3-4 years.
> I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
> now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
> At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
> that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
> rate.
>
> I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
> decent performance?
>
> Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
> approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
> 10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
> 40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!
>
> Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?
>
> Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?
>
>
> Thanks in advance! :) 
Anonymous
October 22, 2004 7:16:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Get whatever you can afford don't worry about the bottle neck. It will run at
whatever your CPU can throw at it and you can always move it to another system
in the future.
Anonymous
October 22, 2004 11:39:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

> Get whatever you can afford don't worry about the bottle neck. It will
> run at whatever your CPU can throw at it and you can always move it to
> another system in the future.

What future? The industry is on a move to PCI-Express. If he gets an AGP
card now, his next system will not likely be able to use it.
October 22, 2004 5:36:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

better to upgrade the whole thing to a midrange system than to have a
ferrari engine in your station wagon

"Sammy" <sameer.bhiwani@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2163fbe.0410210150.5eb1937f@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:
>
> PIII 866
> ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
> 256MB SDRAM
> 80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
> Creative Vibra 128
> Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB
>
> The TNT2, however lame (even when I got it! though I didn't know
> then...), has served me well. I have played Max Payne, NOLF, UT2003,
> UT2004 demo, RTCW, Half-Life, etc. using this card - mostly at
> 800x600x16..which I am okay with.
> I know many of you hardcore gamers love to play at the highest
> possible resolutions with FSAA and AF turned on; I am satisfied with
> the content of the game and a decent frame rate, don't care much about
> bells and whistles.
>
> I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
> me for the next 3-4 years.
> I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
> now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
> At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
> that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
> rate.
>
> I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
> decent performance?
>
> Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
> approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
> 10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
> 40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!
>
> Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?
>
> Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?
>
>
> Thanks in advance! :) 
October 25, 2004 12:56:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Hi all, thanks a lot for the inputs. Appreciate it.

I guess the concensus is that I should go for a new mobo/cpu/card/ram,
maybe even a new PC altogether. Here's what I think...

--------------------------------------------

>Hr. Albrechtsen - You need an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro as a minimum if the
card is going to last a while.

Interesting to see an ATI card recommended here :) 
If I'm upgrading my mobo/cpu/ram is the 6600 or 6800 a better choice
or do you still recommend the 9800? (though all these seem to be over
my budget for now!) I've heard/read a lot about the 9800 and I do
think it's a good card, just that I'm a little inclined towards NV
that's all... :) 

--------------------------------------------

>Hr. Albrechtsen - Your CPU is most definitely a bottleneck
>RaceFace - ...because the CPU/RAM will hold them back immensely
>DaveW - The video card would be dramatically bottle-necked by your
CPU's speed mismatch

Seems like I underestimated the CPU bottleneck in this case! Thanks
guys...
Makes sense - the faster the card, the more it gets held back...

--------------------------------------------

>lyon_wonder - Find a second-hand GF4-Ti for your old p3 and save your
money for a new CPU/board/case/ram combo since most of the new board
next year will likely be PCI-E without an AGP slot.

Practical advice, something I wanted to hear! :) 

>tq96 - ...The industry is on a move to PCI-Express. If he gets an AGP
card now, his next system will not likely be able to use it.

lyon, for what you say towards the end...and t96...
Do you really think the industry can get rid of AGP so soon? PCI-e
will be there on all new boards, no doubt, but AGP will also have to
be there for some time to come. PCI is still around, right?
What would card makers do with all the APG cards? Use bridges like NV
is doing? They don't really have native PCIe cards out yet! And they
can't go around slamming bridges on every card they got. PCIe cards
and boards supporting them will take some time to get refined, I
wouldn't buy 1st generation models of either! Anyways, after the next
upgrade, I'll only go again about 2 or 3 years later, by that time
PCIe cards and boards should be pretty standard and refined.

In any case, I can consider lyon's solution. Is there any specific
model from the older ones that you suggest?

Now, in contrast...

>PRIVATE1964 - Get whatever you can afford don't worry about the
bottle neck. It will run at whatever your CPU can throw at it and you
can always move it to another system in the future.

This is what I was thinking of doing when I thought I should get some
advice. I'm not really looking for the best that the card can give. I
just want the games to run. Most games don't have a problem running
with my current CPU, they do take some time to load, but don't really
reject it (like they do with the TNT2).
In fact, just last month, I faked H-T&L with 3DAnalyzer and ran NOLF2!
The first chapter was fine, but the game threw up while loading the
2nd chapter :( 
That itself is more than what I had expected this card to do, or
rather could do!

So I guess, if I don't want to wait any more, and I can't get a new
system immediately, I've got 2 choices:

1) Get an old card and manage till the upgrade

2) Get a new card and use it below capacity till the upgrade

At this point, the 1st option makes more sense to me, cuz I can get a
newer card later. Or even if I buy the 9800 / equivalent card 6-8
months from now, I'll get it cheaper then.
But I guess just in terms of money, the benefit depends on how cheap I
get the older card now...

What say you?
October 25, 2004 12:57:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Predator" <predator.this@predator.that> wrote in message news:<f9OdnRab15wj2eTcRVn-1A@giganews.com>...
> better to upgrade the whole thing to a midrange system than to have a
> ferrari engine in your station wagon
>

Right said Pred! :) 
Anonymous
October 25, 2004 4:30:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

I suggest to you that AGP will not be fading away that soon just because
PCI-E is knocking infront of the door step now.
There are still alot of user with AGP slot and manufacturer still making
MoBo with AGP.

CapFusion,...



"Predator" <predator.this@predator.that> wrote in message
news:f9OdnRab15wj2eTcRVn-1A@giganews.com...
> better to upgrade the whole thing to a midrange system than to have a
> ferrari engine in your station wagon
>
> "Sammy" <sameer.bhiwani@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b2163fbe.0410210150.5eb1937f@posting.google.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a slightly (ahem!) old system, the specs are:
>>
>> PIII 866
>> ASUS CUV-4x mobo (4x AGP)
>> 256MB SDRAM
>> 80GB ATA HDD @ 7200rpm + 20GB ATA HDD @ 5400rpm
>> Creative Vibra 128
>> Riva TNT2 M64 (yeah, I know!) 32MB
>>
>> The TNT2, however lame (even when I got it! though I didn't know
>> then...), has served me well. I have played Max Payne, NOLF, UT2003,
>> UT2004 demo, RTCW, Half-Life, etc. using this card - mostly at
>> 800x600x16..which I am okay with.
>> I know many of you hardcore gamers love to play at the highest
>> possible resolutions with FSAA and AF turned on; I am satisfied with
>> the content of the game and a decent frame rate, don't care much about
>> bells and whistles.
>>
>> I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
>> me for the next 3-4 years.
>> I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
>> now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
>> At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
>> that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
>> rate.
>>
>> I want to know that if I get, say an FX 5700 or 5950 will it give me a
>> decent performance?
>>
>> Will the slow CPU be a problem? I know it will be a bottleneck, but
>> approx how much performance will I lose? Like, if the game will run
>> 10% slower because of the CPU, I can live with that, but if it's
>> 40-60% then I'd rather get a new box!
>>
>> Will it work on my ASUS CUV-4x?
>>
>> Can you suggest any other cards which would serve my purpose?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance! :) 
>
>
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 12:10:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>>tq96 - ...The industry is on a move to PCI-Express. If he gets an AGP
>> card now, his next system will not likely be able to use it.
>
> lyon, for what you say towards the end...and t96...
> Do you really think the industry can get rid of AGP so soon? PCI-e
> will be there on all new boards, no doubt, but AGP will also have to
> be there for some time to come. PCI is still around, right?

Right now the major chipset vendors are not making chipsets that support
both an AGP and PCI Express. There is one board that implemented an AGP
slot by emulating it using the bandwidth of two PCI slots and the
benchmarks were not that promising.

This is the current situation and not likely to change unless the chipset
makers have a change of heart. I suspect AGP will be around for a while to
come, but you will find yourself having to choose between AGP and PCI
Express. I also think ATI and NVidia will move toward producing budget
cards for AGP while reserving their top performers for PCI Express.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 4:20:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>I also think ATI and NVidia will move toward producing budget
>cards for AGP while reserving their top performers for PCI Express.

I disagree with that. Plenty of video cards even top performers have been
produced in both PCI and AGP for a while so why would it be different with
PCI-Express? They wouldn't want to lose the profits from the people that hold
back on upgrading their computers.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 4:22:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>
>I suggest to you that AGP will not be fading away that soon just because
>PCI-E is knocking infront of the door step now.
>There are still alot of user with AGP slot and manufacturer still making
>MoBo with AGP.
>
>CapFusion,...

Totally agree.

Just because PCI-Express is starting to take over does mean they will
discontinue AGP. If they do that they lose profits from people that don't
upgrade their motherboards very often if at all.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 4:34:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"PRIVATE1964" <private1964@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041025202238.29586.00002746@mb-m02.aol.com...

> Just because PCI-Express is starting to take over does mean they will
> discontinue AGP. If they do that they lose profits from people that don't
> upgrade their motherboards very often if at all.

How do companies make profits off of people that never upgrade their PCs?
In the marketplace, only the people that spend the money drive sales. There
are no profuts if there are no sales.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 7:54:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

> I disagree with that. Plenty of video cards even top performers have
> been produced in both PCI and AGP for a while so why would it be

My experience has been that the PCI selection has been very limited, but I
will admit I haven't paid that close attention to the PCI market. Was the
Geforce 4 Ti series available in PCI? 9700Pro? 9800Pro? 5900XT?

I did a search at Newegg for PCI video cards and the list below represents
the entire offering of in-stock cards:

nVIDIA Quadro NVS 280
nVIDIA Quadro4 NVS200
ATI RADEON 9250 Video Card
nVIDIA GeForce FX 5200
nVIDIA GeForce FX5700LE
nVIDIA GeForce MX4000
ATI RADEON 9200SE
ATI RADEON 7000
nVIDIA GeForce4 MX440
ATI RADEON 7000(VE)
S3 SAVAGE IX

None of these cards represent anything close to top performance, even when
compared to cards from several generations ago. I imagine nearly all of
these cards would receive negative comments from the participants of this
newsgroup regarding their performance levels.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 7:54:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
news:Xns958DF33A0F12Btq96@127.0.0.1...
>> I disagree with that. Plenty of video cards even top performers have
>> been produced in both PCI and AGP for a while so why would it be
>
> My experience has been that the PCI selection has been very limited, but I
> will admit I haven't paid that close attention to the PCI market. Was the
> Geforce 4 Ti series available in PCI? 9700Pro? 9800Pro? 5900XT?
>
> I did a search at Newegg for PCI video cards and the list below represents
> the entire offering of in-stock cards:
>
> nVIDIA Quadro NVS 280
> nVIDIA Quadro4 NVS200
> ATI RADEON 9250 Video Card
> nVIDIA GeForce FX 5200
> nVIDIA GeForce FX5700LE
> nVIDIA GeForce MX4000
> ATI RADEON 9200SE
> ATI RADEON 7000
> nVIDIA GeForce4 MX440
> ATI RADEON 7000(VE)
> S3 SAVAGE IX
>
> None of these cards represent anything close to top performance, even when
> compared to cards from several generations ago. I imagine nearly all of
> these cards would receive negative comments from the participants of this
> newsgroup regarding their performance levels.

You would be correct. PCI video cards are now relegated to low-end
performance, and have been for a while. The PCI bus just doesn't have
enough umph for today's video cards.

Note: I'm not talking about PCI Express, of coruse. :D 
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 9:03:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>How do companies make profits off of people that never upgrade their PCs?
>In the marketplace, only the people that spend the money drive sales. There
>are no profuts if there are no sales.

I was talking about video cards I believe I posted that. People that keep the
same computer with AGP year after year. Those are the profits that would be
lost if Nvidia dropped AGP and went with only PCI-Express. It's not gonna
happen. That is why you can still find PCI graphic cards to this day. It is
also the same reason why games are made with adjustable graphic quality levels.
If they only designed the game for the fastest hardware they would lose out on
the profits from slower systems.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 9:16:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>Was the
>Geforce 4 Ti series available in PCI? 9700Pro? 9800Pro? 5900XT?

I would have to do some research on those models.

My main point was just that AGP is not gonna be gone in the near future just
like PCI was not not gone for a while after AGP came out.

I remember the first AGP motherboards, and I also remember that they continued
to sell PCI graphic cards as well. All the new models came out in PCI and AGP.
I believe the PCI cards came out slightly later then the AGP models.
Kind of like what is happening with the 6600GT. It came out in PCI-Express and
AGP will follow. Sooner or later they will decide it's just not worth it to
produce AGP versions anymore and stop, but I think that will be a while just
like it was with PCI & AGP.
October 26, 2004 1:09:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
news:Xns958DF33A0F12Btq96@127.0.0.1...
>> I disagree with that. Plenty of video cards even top performers have
>> been produced in both PCI and AGP for a while so why would it be
>
> My experience has been that the PCI selection has been very limited, but I
> will admit I haven't paid that close attention to the PCI market. Was the
> Geforce 4 Ti series available in PCI? 9700Pro? 9800Pro? 5900XT?

I would agree with that. But Private's comments are still correct. The
reason there aren't too many PCI cards around these days is because PCI has
****Way**** too little bandwidth to make it a sensible option for a decent
graphics card.

This is not true of AGP. The bandwidth for both AGP and PCI-Express are
very similar actually. I doubt if there will be any real-world speed
improvements offered by PCI-Express over the next couple of years or so.

The situation is a bit like that of Serial ATA disks. Yes, the SATA
interface has a little more bandwidth than the "old" IDE parallel ATA
standard. But do we see SATA disks offering big speed advantages? No. Do
we see the PATA IDE disks dying out? No. And that's after what? 2 years?
SATA has some advantages in terms of neater cabling and greater future
potential, but the old PATA and SCSI alternatives still thrive.

Similarly, AGP will be around for a long time yet I reckon. Certainly I
will be tired of my "ancient" GF6800GT, way before AGP has gone.

Chip
October 26, 2004 5:21:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Good advice. A GF4 ti4200 would be a major increase, even for your slow
cpu. A GF3 would also work well and those can easily be picked up on ebay
for less than $30.


"lyon_wonder" <lyon_wonder@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1a1gn0t2fgpscd9gag4s4112qj6ocsbo1h@4ax.com...
> Find a second-hand GF4-Ti for your old p3 and save your money for a
> new CPU/board/case/ram combo since most of the new board next year
> will likely be PCI-E without an AGP slot.
>
> >I'm looking for a decent nVidia card which, like the TNT2 did, serve
> >me for the next 3-4 years.
> >I might get a new mobo, CPU and more RAM after 6-8 months. But as of
> >now I want to play games like Splinter Cell, HL2, NOLF2, etc...
> >At the same time, I want a card that will be able to run the games
> >that will come out in the next 2 years and run with a decent frame
> >rate.
>
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 6:16:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Biz wrote:

>
> "PRIVATE1964" <private1964@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041025202238.29586.00002746@mb-m02.aol.com...
>
>> Just because PCI-Express is starting to take over does mean they will
>> discontinue AGP. If they do that they lose profits from people that don't
>> upgrade their motherboards very often if at all.
>
> How do companies make profits off of people that never upgrade their PCs?

It is possible to perform many upgrades on a PC without upgrading the
motherboard. You can upgrade CPU, memory, disk, video, and sound to name a
few.

> In the marketplace, only the people that spend the money drive sales.
> There are no profuts if there are no sales.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 12:21:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

AGP has been here for around 8 years, and there are still PCI graphic cards to
this day. They might not be the fastest models though. During the first few
years of AGP, the fastest video cards of the time had a PCI version also.

So AGP will be around at least a few more years IMO.
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 8:28:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

> The situation is a bit like that of Serial ATA disks. Yes, the SATA
> interface has a little more bandwidth than the "old" IDE parallel ATA
> standard. But do we see SATA disks offering big speed advantages?
If you had to buy a motherboard with only PATA connections or only SATA
connections, which would you choose? PATA remains widespread because we
are able to purchase systems that contain both SATA and PATA connections.
If, shortly after the unveiling of SATA, motherboard manufacturers switched
completely over, things might be different.

Buyers must currently make a choice between AGP or PCI Express at the
expense of the other, but there will come a time soon when AGP systems are
no longer offered. I think this will accelerate the demise of AGP. As the
market shrinks, ATI and NVidia will ponder whether it is worthwhile to
release the latest cards in AGP.

Even now, with both manufacturers eager to support both platforms, the 6600
cards are still not available in AGP and the 6800 series in PCI-Express are
hard to come by. The supply of ATI cards is in the same predicament as
well.
October 27, 2004 2:00:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
news:Xns958F4DD359C8tq96@127.0.0.1...
>> The situation is a bit like that of Serial ATA disks. Yes, the SATA
>> interface has a little more bandwidth than the "old" IDE parallel ATA
>> standard. But do we see SATA disks offering big speed advantages?

> If you had to buy a motherboard with only PATA connections or only SATA
> connections, which would you choose? PATA remains widespread because we
> are able to purchase systems that contain both SATA and PATA connections.
> If, shortly after the unveiling of SATA, motherboard manufacturers
> switched
> completely over, things might be different.

You fail to ask the question *why* motherboard manufacturers still offer
boards with both SATA and PATA support? Its because people still have PATA
disks and they (the board manufacturers) don't want to exclude themselves
from a substantial portion of the market.

This is a very good analogy with the PCI-Express situation. Do you think
Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of the
AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is demand for
motherboards with AGP slots, someone will produce them. And given that
99.9% of people today still have AGP graphics cards, I don't see that demand
disappearing any time soon.

Ironically, the graphics card manufacturers are in the same boat, but the
other way around: they will need to keep offering AGP versions of their
technology to appeal to the AGP-motherboard-owning market. So both the
graphics card manufacturers and the motherboard manufacturers are locked
into AGP in this sort of deadly embrace. Neither can afford to walk away
from a substantial proportion of the market and each parties continued
presence in the market perpetuates the "problem".

Now, I do agree: If you are building a PC from scratch right now, go
PCI-Express. But if you have other components that limit you to AGP now,
don't worry about it.

Chip
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 9:13:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

> You fail to ask the question *why* motherboard manufacturers still
> offer boards with both SATA and PATA support? Its because people
> still have PATA disks and they (the board manufacturers) don't want to
> exclude themselves from a substantial portion of the market.
That and it is technically possible.


> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is
Yes, in time. Look how fast the VLBus disappeared after the introduction
of PCI.
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 9:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
news:Xns958F868FA9590tq96@127.0.0.1...
>> You fail to ask the question *why* motherboard manufacturers still
>> offer boards with both SATA and PATA support? Its because people
>> still have PATA disks and they (the board manufacturers) don't want to
>> exclude themselves from a substantial portion of the market.
> That and it is technically possible.
>
>
>> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
>> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is
> Yes, in time. Look how fast the VLBus disappeared after the introduction
> of PCI.

One main reason it faded quicker is due to it size or it length and
secondary performance.


CapFusion,...
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 4:04:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>VLBus

"Memoriessssssssssss....like the cornersssss.....of myyy.... mind." I'm sorry
I just get all misty eyed when I hear about hardware from long ago.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 4:04:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"PRIVATE1964" <private1964@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041027200406.23043.00002627@mb-m12.aol.com...
> >VLBus
>
> "Memoriessssssssssss....like the cornersssss.....of myyy.... mind." I'm
> sorry
> I just get all misty eyed when I hear about hardware from long ago.

Next time, cover your ears but continue using your eyes so you still can see
but cannot hear and no "misty eyed" as result.

CapFusion,...
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 6:32:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>Next time, cover your ears but continue using your eyes so you still can see
>but cannot hear and no "misty eyed" as result.

lol.

I forgot all about VLB, I think if I remember right I saved up for a Diamond
Stealth 64. It was only around $150. It cost the same amount as 4 Megs of
memory...lol.
October 28, 2004 3:59:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
news:Xns958F868FA9590tq96@127.0.0.1...
>> You fail to ask the question *why* motherboard manufacturers still
>> offer boards with both SATA and PATA support? Its because people
>> still have PATA disks and they (the board manufacturers) don't want to
>> exclude themselves from a substantial portion of the market.
> That and it is technically possible.
>
>
>> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
>> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is

> Yes, in time.

Well of course, in time. I am not saying AGP will be here for the next 50
years. Merely that you will still be able to buy AGP graphics cards and
motherboards probably for the next couple of years and you'll be able to get
drivers and support for a few years after that.

Chip
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 9:08:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

>>> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
>>> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is
>
>> Yes, in time.
>
> Well of course, in time. I am not saying AGP will be here for the
> next 50 years. Merely that you will still be able to buy AGP graphics

I think we're in disagreement over exactly how much time. We are in
agreement that anyone looking to buy a system now should get one that
supports PCI-Express, so I guess it's a moot point anyway.
October 28, 2004 10:12:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
news:Xns959085AF9AF18tq96@127.0.0.1...
>>>> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
>>>> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is
>>
>>> Yes, in time.
>>
>> Well of course, in time. I am not saying AGP will be here for the
>> next 50 years. Merely that you will still be able to buy AGP graphics
>
> I think we're in disagreement over exactly how much time. We are in
> agreement that anyone looking to buy a system now should get one that
> supports PCI-Express, so I guess it's a moot point anyway.

On that point, I do agree. But only all things being equal. I wouldn't go
out of my way to buy PCI-Express now. i.e. if it was going to cost me a lot
more, or if I wanted to build now and I couldn't get the PCI-Express parts,
I would just go ahead with AGP. I really don't see it being a big deal
today. Anything you build today will be pretty much junk in a few years
time anyway.

Chip
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 1:31:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:

>
> "tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
> news:Xns958F4DD359C8tq96@127.0.0.1...
>>> The situation is a bit like that of Serial ATA disks. Yes, the SATA
>>> interface has a little more bandwidth than the "old" IDE parallel ATA
>>> standard. But do we see SATA disks offering big speed advantages?
>
>> If you had to buy a motherboard with only PATA connections or only SATA
>> connections, which would you choose? PATA remains widespread because we
>> are able to purchase systems that contain both SATA and PATA connections.
>> If, shortly after the unveiling of SATA, motherboard manufacturers
>> switched
>> completely over, things might be different.
>
> You fail to ask the question *why* motherboard manufacturers still offer
> boards with both SATA and PATA support? Its because people still have
> PATA disks and they (the board manufacturers) don't want to exclude
> themselves from a substantial portion of the market.

There are two issues that you overlook. First, most of the chipsets out
there support parallel ATA directly but serial ATA requires an add-on
chip--it costs nothing but the price of a couple of connectors to provide
the parallel ATA support so they may as well go ahead and install those
connectors. Second, there are no SATA CD, DVD, tape, or other types of
drive available except for hard disks. The reason for this is that the
SATA standard overlooked the existence of CD, DVD, tape, and other devices
that have an ATA interface but are not hard disks, and until that gets
fixed and compliant chips ship and the hardware vendors start shipping
drives that incorporate them, connecting such devices via SATA is an
exceedingly iffy proposition--there are some chip manufacturers that have
interface chips and bridge chips which when paired support such devices but
only when that brand of interface and bridge are paired--if you plug a
device using that bridge into a motherboard that uses a different brand of
interface then the device, if it is even recognized, doesn't work reliably.

> This is a very good analogy with the PCI-Express situation.

With respect to parallel PCI it is but not with respect to video--the only
type of device that is available with an AGP interface is video boards, and
PCI Express video boards seem to work as well as AGP video boards, so
there's no real compatibility issue there except with older boards. With
parallel PCI it's different--there are numerous types of parallel PCI
devices that do not have PCI Express equivalents.

With PCI Express the chipset issue is a bit different too--Intel doesn't
provide an AGP interface on their current chipsets, just PCI Express. The
new generation of chipsets from nvidia and via seem to be following Intel's
lead and abandoning the AGP interface entirely, so it won't be long before
new motherboards with AGP slots disappear from the market. The only way to
attach an AGP device to such a chipset is with a third-party AGP-to-PCI
Express bridge--while there is such a device available it appears to have
been developed by ECS, leaving one wondering just how stable it is and how
well it performs, and its use is not widespread.

> Do you think
> Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of the
> AGP-card-owning market?

If they can't get chipsets that support AGP they won't have any choice.

> Of course not. As long as there is demand for
> motherboards with AGP slots, someone will produce them. And given that
> 99.9% of people today still have AGP graphics cards, I don't see that
> demand disappearing any time soon.

If the only motherboard on the market with an AGP slot has an ECS bridge
chip, which is likely to be the case sometime in the not too distant
future, unless ECS for once does something really outstanding I can't see a
lot of continued support for AGP.

> Ironically, the graphics card manufacturers are in the same boat, but the
> other way around: they will need to keep offering AGP versions of their
> technology to appeal to the AGP-motherboard-owning market. So both the
> graphics card manufacturers and the motherboard manufacturers are locked
> into AGP in this sort of deadly embrace. Neither can afford to walk away
> from a substantial proportion of the market and each parties continued
> presence in the market perpetuates the "problem".

You see, this was the whole purpose of PCI Express--to force upgraders to
upgrade everything at once.

> Now, I do agree: If you are building a PC from scratch right now, go
> PCI-Express. But if you have other components that limit you to AGP now,
> don't worry about it.
>
> Chip

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 1:33:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

CapFusion wrote:

>
> "tq96" <tq96@tq96.tq96> wrote in message
> news:Xns958F868FA9590tq96@127.0.0.1...
>>> You fail to ask the question *why* motherboard manufacturers still
>>> offer boards with both SATA and PATA support? Its because people
>>> still have PATA disks and they (the board manufacturers) don't want to
>>> exclude themselves from a substantial portion of the market.
>> That and it is technically possible.
>>
>>
>>> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
>>> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is
>> Yes, in time. Look how fast the VLBus disappeared after the introduction
>> of PCI.
>
> One main reason it faded quicker is due to it size or it length and
> secondary performance.

The main reason was that Intel pushed a competing standard that allowed more
slots and didn't have VLB's number of slots vs clock speed tradeoff.

> CapFusion,...

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 1:38:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

tq96 wrote:

>>>> think Asus, Abit, MSI and the like will want to abandon the whole of
>>>> the AGP-card-owning market? Of course not. As long as there is
>>
>>> Yes, in time.
>>
>> Well of course, in time. I am not saying AGP will be here for the
>> next 50 years. Merely that you will still be able to buy AGP graphics
>
> I think we're in disagreement over exactly how much time. We are in
> agreement that anyone looking to buy a system now should get one that
> supports PCI-Express, so I guess it's a moot point anyway.

Two years is probably about right. I suspect that nvidia and via are going
to continue to ship their current generation of AGP chipsets as long as
there is a market for them--right now the only PCI Express chipsets they
have announced are for K8, but eventually they'll probably move their
entire product lines to PCI Express--I suspect that the last AGP chipsets
will disappear from the market when AMD and Intel quit producing the
processors that they support, so two years is probably a pretty fair
timeframe.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
November 10, 2004 10:28:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

PRIVATE1964 wrote:
> AGP has been here for around 8 years, and there are still PCI graphic cards to
> this day. They might not be the fastest models though. During the first few
> years of AGP, the fastest video cards of the time had a PCI version also.
>
> So AGP will be around at least a few more years IMO.
>

PCI cards will still be around because companies like DELL and gateway
still make systems without agp or pci-x slots

They do make FX 5200 cards in a pci version. Which while not state of
the art are certainly enough for a basic gaming experience.
!