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Future AGP Support?

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Anonymous
January 7, 2005 2:03:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

I want to upgrade my present Intel system to an AMD Athlon64 S939. I'm
tired of waiting for the nForce4 MB's to available in Canada. I could get
an nForce3 board as there is not much difference but the problem is it's not
clear whether the next generation chips from ATI/nVidia are going to have
AGP support or not. I have a feeling that PCI-E is the future and it's
going to at least provide me a guaranteed path to upgrade in let's say a
year and a half or two or I could be wrong. What do you think?

More about : future agp support

Anonymous
January 7, 2005 3:50:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

RobB wrote:

> I want to upgrade my present Intel system to an AMD Athlon64 S939. I'm
> tired of waiting for the nForce4 MB's to available in Canada. I could get
> an nForce3 board as there is not much difference but the problem is it's
> not clear whether the next generation chips from ATI/nVidia are going to
> have
> AGP support or not. I have a feeling that PCI-E is the future and it's
> going to at least provide me a guaranteed path to upgrade in let's say a
> year and a half or two or I could be wrong. What do you think?

I think that at this moment the AGP/PCI Express thing is turning into
another religious issue like Mac vs PC and you're not going to get a lot of
reasoned discourse going either way. Personally I'd consider the intended
use. If playing the latest games is important to you then I'd wait for PCI
Express boards to become available where I was and probably go with one
that was SLI capable as well--even if I never use the capability it has one
more PCI Express slot, which might or might not be useful in the future.
If playing the latest games doesn't matter then I wouldn't worry about it
because there's going to be little likelihood that the video board would
need to be upgraded during the life of the machine for any other purpose.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 7, 2005 6:00:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"RobB" <RobB@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qIudnQwOA6VEL0PcRVn-tw@rogers.com...
> I want to upgrade my present Intel system to an AMD Athlon64 S939. I'm
> tired of waiting for the nForce4 MB's to available in Canada. I could get
> an nForce3 board as there is not much difference but the problem is it's
not
> clear whether the next generation chips from ATI/nVidia are going to have
> AGP support or not. I have a feeling that PCI-E is the future and it's
> going to at least provide me a guaranteed path to upgrade in let's say a
> year and a half or two or I could be wrong. What do you think?


AGP is an obsolete interconnect and PCI-E is the likely successor, note well
most new chipsets use PCI-E and not AGP.

That is a very obvious observation and has a very natural, intuitive
conclusion which only needs a proof to support this assertion: Your next
Motherboard should have at least one PCI-E slot.

All other considerations are moot, considering how likely you are to get
your 2nd subsequent motherboard before you buy your 2nd subsequent PCI-E
Video Card (all the meanwhile no AGP card!).

Helps?
Related resources
Anonymous
January 7, 2005 9:11:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

I agree, wait for nForce 4.

"RobB" <RobB@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:qIudnQwOA6VEL0PcRVn-tw@rogers.com...
>I want to upgrade my present Intel system to an AMD Athlon64 S939. I'm
> tired of waiting for the nForce4 MB's to available in Canada. I could get
> an nForce3 board as there is not much difference but the problem is it's
> not
> clear whether the next generation chips from ATI/nVidia are going to have
> AGP support or not. I have a feeling that PCI-E is the future and it's
> going to at least provide me a guaranteed path to upgrade in let's say a
> year and a half or two or I could be wrong. What do you think?
>
>
January 7, 2005 9:11:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Yeah wait so u dont have to worry about upgrading again for awhile.


"Richard Dower" <richarddower@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:crmk2m$28i$1@kermit.esat.net...
>I agree, wait for nForce 4.
>
> "RobB" <RobB@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:qIudnQwOA6VEL0PcRVn-tw@rogers.com...
>>I want to upgrade my present Intel system to an AMD Athlon64 S939. I'm
>> tired of waiting for the nForce4 MB's to available in Canada. I could
>> get
>> an nForce3 board as there is not much difference but the problem is it's
>> not
>> clear whether the next generation chips from ATI/nVidia are going to have
>> AGP support or not. I have a feeling that PCI-E is the future and it's
>> going to at least provide me a guaranteed path to upgrade in let's say a
>> year and a half or two or I could be wrong. What do you think?
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
January 8, 2005 6:08:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

J. Clarke:

> I think that at this moment the AGP/PCI Express thing is turning into
> another religious issue like Mac vs PC

A religious issue like Mac vs PC is overly dramatic. AGP is on the way
out, PCI-E is on the way in, there is nothing more to it. If you're
uncertain as to what will happen, look back on previous changes in the
video slot standard: ISA => VLB => PCI => AGP (and now) => PCI-E.

AGP will not die overnight but it will die. We are not facing a future of
competing standards. Video card manufacturers don't like multiple
standards because it increases costs (despite what Tom's Hardware or
others may claim). PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it
remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the course
of VLB.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 8, 2005 11:43:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Mac Cool wrote:

> J. Clarke:
>
>> I think that at this moment the AGP/PCI Express thing is turning into
>> another religious issue like Mac vs PC
>
> A religious issue like Mac vs PC is overly dramatic. AGP is on the way
> out, PCI-E is on the way in, there is nothing more to it. If you're
> uncertain as to what will happen, look back on previous changes in the
> video slot standard: ISA => VLB => PCI => AGP (and now) => PCI-E.
>
> AGP will not die overnight but it will die. We are not facing a future of
> competing standards. Video card manufacturers don't like multiple
> standards because it increases costs (despite what Tom's Hardware or
> others may claim). PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it
> remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the course
> of VLB.

You see what you've done--you just had to jump in and defend PCI Express
even though it wasn't being attacked. That's why I say it's turning into a
religious issue.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 9, 2005 12:03:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

J. Clarke:

> You see what you've done--you just had to jump in and defend PCI
> Express even though it wasn't being attacked. That's why I say it's
> turning into a religious issue.

Boy oh boy, some people just can't live without drama... tell you what,
quote your *attack* on PCI-E and my subsequent *defense* because I think
you are just trying to start an argument, but I'm not playing. My only
point was that you are being melodramatic about what is an inevitable
change to the video slot/bus standard; comparing it to a holy war (figure
of speech). Our opinions (which I have no preference) are irrelevant, the
decisions have been made and PCI-E will continue regardless of anything
posted here.

Oh, I don't want to alarm you any further, but eventually PCI-E will be
replaced by something else, many years hence.

No more drama for me, peace out.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 9, 2005 1:55:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Mac Cool wrote:

> J. Clarke:
>
>> You see what you've done--you just had to jump in and defend PCI
>> Express even though it wasn't being attacked. That's why I say it's
>> turning into a religious issue.
>
> Boy oh boy, some people just can't live without drama... tell you what,
> quote your *attack*

Quote my "attack"? What attack? I said wait for it if you need it, if you
don't need it then don't bother. That's hardly an "attack".

> on PCI-E and my subsequent *defense*

Well, basically rather than provide any useful information you launch the
usual dissertation that amounts to "you will be assimilated".

> because I think
> you are just trying to start an argument, but I'm not playing.

Well, actually, you are.

> My only
> point was that you are being melodramatic about what is an inevitable
> change to the video slot/bus standard;

No, I'm pointing out that there is more heat than light in discourse on this
topic.

> comparing it to a holy war (figure
> of speech). Our opinions (which I have no preference) are irrelevant, the
> decisions have been made and PCI-E will continue regardless of anything
> posted here.

Or not as the case may be. While I doubt it's going to happen it would
please me greatly if the computer buying public told Intel to take their
new standard and shove it up their butts sideways.
>
> Oh, I don't want to alarm you any further, but eventually PCI-E will be
> replaced by something else, many years hence.

Or not as the case may be.

> No more drama for me, peace out.

If you didn't want drama you wouldn't have responded the first time.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
January 9, 2005 2:23:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...

[snip]
> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it
> remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the course
> of VLB.

What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with the
first sentence:

"PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a huge
install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in use."

And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a huge
install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics cards and
motherboards are AGP today!!!

I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and motherboards for
that matter) for quite some time yet.

Chip
Anonymous
January 9, 2005 2:23:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:

>
> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>
> [snip]
>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it
>> remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the course
>> of VLB.
>
> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with the
> first sentence:
>
> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a huge
> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in use."
>
> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a huge
> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics cards
> and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>
> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and motherboards
> for that matter) for quite some time yet.

What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP hardware will be
put on the back burner or halted so that you won't be able to get any new
features on AGP video or motherboards and AGP technology will effectively
be frozen at some level.

> Chip

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 2:01:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:
> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>
> [snip]
>
>>PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it
>>remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the course
>>of VLB.
>
>
> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with the
> first sentence:
>
> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a huge
> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in use."
>
> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a huge
> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics cards and
> motherboards are AGP today!!!
>
> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and motherboards for
> that matter) for quite some time yet.
>
> Chip
>
>

PCI and ISA slots continued to be present on motherboards well after
they had been replaced by AGP for video cards, since they were being
used for other things (and some systems needed to use PCI video cards
too since they had no AGP slot). AGP, on the other hand, will not be
present on motherboards which support PCI Express.

--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hancockr@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 3:37:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip:
> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
> motherboards for that matter) for quite some time yet.

That statement is sufficiently vague as to mean nothing. Does 'quite some
time' mean: 6 weeks, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 3 years? I think AGP
will be effectively gone in 12-18 months. (there may still be AGP cards
available, but most of us will not be buying them)
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 12:53:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

In article <2JiEd.36917$8l.21421@pd7tw1no>, Robert Hancock
<hancockr@nospamshaw.ca> writes

>AGP, on the other hand, will not be
>present on motherboards which support PCI Express.

I've already seen at least one board that has both PCI Express and AGP.

--
..sigmonster on vacation
January 10, 2005 1:12:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:crrkeo01auo@news3.newsguy.com...
> Chip wrote:
>
>>
>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>
>> [snip]
>>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it
>>> remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the course
>>> of VLB.
>>
>> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with
>> the
>> first sentence:
>>
>> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a
>> huge
>> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in use."
>>
>> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a huge
>> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics cards
>> and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>>
>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and motherboards
>> for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>
> What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP hardware will be
> put on the back burner or halted so that you won't be able to get any new
> features on AGP video or motherboards and AGP technology will effectively
> be frozen at some level.

To an extent I agree. I still envisage at least one more generation of ATI
and nVidia chips being available on AGP cards. Probably more than one. You
have to remember that neither nVidia nor ATI make the cards and there are a
plethora of oems all jostling for a slice of the market, trying to find
different differentiators and ways to grab a piece of market share. With
the *vast* number of AGP motherboards installed out there, I find it
inconceivable that none of the card oems will want to offer AGP versions of
their cards.

Chip
January 10, 2005 1:18:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95D9C7C70C5C0MacCool@130.133.1.4...
> Chip:
>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
>> motherboards for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>
> That statement is sufficiently vague as to mean nothing. Does 'quite some
> time' mean: 6 weeks, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 3 years? I think AGP
> will be effectively gone in 12-18 months. (there may still be AGP cards
> available, but most of us will not be buying them)
> --

Hmmmm. I am not a lawyer carefully choosing every word. I have no idea
exactly how long AGP cards will be kicking around. I merely wanted to point
out to those who think AGP is dead and buried already, that it is not.

As to your final sentence, I can pick holes in that too:

"there may still be AGP cards available <in 12 -18 months>, but most of us
will not be buying them"

Who is "us" exactly? If you mean Dell, then of course. I doubt the big PC
oems are buying AGP cards now, let alone in 18months! But what about your
average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What will *he* buy in 12-18
months from now? Some of those guys will of course buy a new PC. But many
will still want an AGP card. And for that reason, I would expect AGP cards
will still be available (and offering the then current chipsets) in 12-18
months time.

Chip
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 6:11:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

> In article <2JiEd.36917$8l.21421@pd7tw1no>, Robert Hancock
> <hancockr@nospamshaw.ca> writes
>
>>AGP, on the other hand, will not be
>>present on motherboards which support PCI Express.
>
> I've already seen at least one board that has both PCI Express and AGP.

Made by PCChips or one of their subsidiaries and using a proprietary bridge
chip also made by PCChips or one of their subsidiaries. Given PCCHips'
reputation, one would not expect this to be a particularly reliable
product. If there is a real market for such boards then PCChips will soon
rule the industry. If there is not then there's no reason for other chip
manufacturers to jump on the bandwagon.

Since an extra part (the bridge chip) has to be added to any PCI Express
board to allow it to have a working AGP slot, and since that bridge, at
this time anyway, comes from one of the less well regarded manufacturers,
it's unlikely that you're going to see it included on very many boards that
are not made by PCChips.

Now, it may be that in the future the chip manufacturers incorporate the
bridge chip in the chipset, in which case boards with both PCI Express and
AGP will become readily available, but that won't happen unless the PCChips
experiment does well enough to show that there is a market.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 6:14:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:crrkeo01auo@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Chip wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die,
>>>> it remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the
>>>> course of VLB.
>>>
>>> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with
>>> the
>>> first sentence:
>>>
>>> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a
>>> huge
>>> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in use."
>>>
>>> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a
>>> huge
>>> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics cards
>>> and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>>>
>>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and motherboards
>>> for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>>
>> What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP hardware will
>> be put on the back burner or halted so that you won't be able to get any
>> new features on AGP video or motherboards and AGP technology will
>> effectively be frozen at some level.
>
> To an extent I agree. I still envisage at least one more generation of
> ATI
> and nVidia chips being available on AGP cards. Probably more than one.
> You have to remember that neither nVidia nor ATI make the cards and there
> are a plethora of oems all jostling for a slice of the market, trying to
> find
> different differentiators and ways to grab a piece of market share. With
> the *vast* number of AGP motherboards installed out there, I find it
> inconceivable that none of the card oems will want to offer AGP versions
> of their cards.

The board manufacturer doesn't get to arbitrarily decide which interface to
use though--if the chip supports PCI Express and the manufacturer wants to
use AGP then unless the chip manufacturer has an approved bridge chip the
board manufacturer has to get it from a third party and then beat the
combination into submission.

> Chip

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 4:48:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip:
> what about your average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What
> will *he* buy in 12-18 months from now?

A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.
--
Mac Cool
January 11, 2005 9:47:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cruokm1rei@news3.newsguy.com...
> Chip wrote:
>
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:crrkeo01auo@news3.newsguy.com...
>>> Chip wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>>>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die,
>>>>> it remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the
>>>>> course of VLB.
>>>>
>>>> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with
>>>> the
>>>> first sentence:
>>>>
>>>> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a
>>>> huge
>>>> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in
>>>> use."
>>>>
>>>> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a
>>>> huge
>>>> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics cards
>>>> and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>>>>
>>>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
>>>> motherboards
>>>> for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>>>
>>> What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP hardware will
>>> be put on the back burner or halted so that you won't be able to get any
>>> new features on AGP video or motherboards and AGP technology will
>>> effectively be frozen at some level.
>>
>> To an extent I agree. I still envisage at least one more generation of
>> ATI
>> and nVidia chips being available on AGP cards. Probably more than one.
>> You have to remember that neither nVidia nor ATI make the cards and there
>> are a plethora of oems all jostling for a slice of the market, trying to
>> find
>> different differentiators and ways to grab a piece of market share. With
>> the *vast* number of AGP motherboards installed out there, I find it
>> inconceivable that none of the card oems will want to offer AGP versions
>> of their cards.
>
> The board manufacturer doesn't get to arbitrarily decide which interface
> to
> use though--if the chip supports PCI Express and the manufacturer wants to
> use AGP then unless the chip manufacturer has an approved bridge chip the
> board manufacturer has to get it from a third party and then beat the
> combination into submission.

Of course. But since the nVidia chips are (all?) native AGP parts, I can't
see them dropping AGP any time soon. You don't need any adapter to run AGP
chips on an AGP bus!

Chip
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 9:47:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cruokm1rei@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Chip wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:crrkeo01auo@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>> Chip wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>>>>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't die,
>>>>>> it remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely follow the
>>>>>> course of VLB.
>>>>>
>>>>> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely with
>>>>> the
>>>>> first sentence:
>>>>>
>>>>> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a
>>>>> huge
>>>>> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in
>>>>> use."
>>>>>
>>>>> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a
>>>>> huge
>>>>> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics
>>>>> cards and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
>>>>> motherboards
>>>>> for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>>>>
>>>> What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP hardware will
>>>> be put on the back burner or halted so that you won't be able to get
>>>> any new features on AGP video or motherboards and AGP technology will
>>>> effectively be frozen at some level.
>>>
>>> To an extent I agree. I still envisage at least one more generation of
>>> ATI
>>> and nVidia chips being available on AGP cards. Probably more than one.
>>> You have to remember that neither nVidia nor ATI make the cards and
>>> there are a plethora of oems all jostling for a slice of the market,
>>> trying to find
>>> different differentiators and ways to grab a piece of market share.
>>> With the *vast* number of AGP motherboards installed out there, I find
>>> it inconceivable that none of the card oems will want to offer AGP
>>> versions of their cards.
>>
>> The board manufacturer doesn't get to arbitrarily decide which interface
>> to
>> use though--if the chip supports PCI Express and the manufacturer wants
>> to use AGP then unless the chip manufacturer has an approved bridge chip
>> the board manufacturer has to get it from a third party and then beat the
>> combination into submission.
>
> Of course. But since the nVidia chips are (all?) native AGP parts, I
> can't
> see them dropping AGP any time soon. You don't need any adapter to run
> AGP chips on an AGP bus!

I suspect their next generation is going to be PCI Express natively.
>
> Chip

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
January 11, 2005 9:53:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95DAD3CC54BBDMacCool@130.133.1.4...
> Chip:
>> what about your average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What
>> will *he* buy in 12-18 months from now?
>
> A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
> A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.
> --
> Mac Cool

I don't get your point. No-one would want to buy a *new* AGP motherboard in
18 months. That would be crazy.

But, 18 months from now, if you own an AGP motherboard and you want to buy a
new graphics card, what are you going to want to buy? An AGP graphics card!
That's why manufacturers will continue to offer them... because if there is
market demand, someone will cater for it.

Let me offer you an analogy:

Do PCI-Express cards offer any speed advantages over AGP? No, not really.
Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.

Do sata disks offer any improvement over IDE disks? No, not really.
Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.

Do ALL new motherboards come with sata ports? Yes.

Can you still buy a PATA disk today? Yes. Why? Because their is still
demand for them.

Anyway, this is my view. Others may have a different point of view. In 18
months time, we will see who is right.

Chip
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 1:38:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:

>
> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95DAD3CC54BBDMacCool@130.133.1.4...
>> Chip:
>>> what about your average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What
>>> will *he* buy in 12-18 months from now?
>>
>> A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
>> A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.
>> --
>> Mac Cool
>
> I don't get your point. No-one would want to buy a *new* AGP motherboard
> in
> 18 months. That would be crazy.
>
> But, 18 months from now, if you own an AGP motherboard and you want to buy
> a
> new graphics card, what are you going to want to buy? An AGP graphics
> card! That's why manufacturers will continue to offer them... because if
> there is market demand, someone will cater for it.
>
> Let me offer you an analogy:
>
> Do PCI-Express cards offer any speed advantages over AGP? No, not really.
> Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.
>
> Do sata disks offer any improvement over IDE disks? No, not really.
> Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.
>
> Do ALL new motherboards come with sata ports? Yes.
>
> Can you still buy a PATA disk today? Yes. Why? Because their is still
> demand for them.
>
> Anyway, this is my view. Others may have a different point of view. In
> 18 months time, we will see who is right.

Other than replacing a dead video board, why would one want to put a new
video board in an 18-month-old motherboard?
>
> Chip

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
January 13, 2005 6:41:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cs3hiu12ar0@news1.newsguy.com...
> Chip wrote:
>
>>
>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns95DAD3CC54BBDMacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>> Chip:
>>>> what about your average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What
>>>> will *he* buy in 12-18 months from now?
>>>
>>> A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
>>> A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.
>>> --
>>> Mac Cool
>>
>> I don't get your point. No-one would want to buy a *new* AGP motherboard
>> in
>> 18 months. That would be crazy.
>>
>> But, 18 months from now, if you own an AGP motherboard and you want to
>> buy
>> a
>> new graphics card, what are you going to want to buy? An AGP graphics
>> card! That's why manufacturers will continue to offer them... because if
>> there is market demand, someone will cater for it.
>>
>> Let me offer you an analogy:
>>
>> Do PCI-Express cards offer any speed advantages over AGP? No, not
>> really.
>> Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.
>>
>> Do sata disks offer any improvement over IDE disks? No, not really.
>> Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.
>>
>> Do ALL new motherboards come with sata ports? Yes.
>>
>> Can you still buy a PATA disk today? Yes. Why? Because their is still
>> demand for them.
>>
>> Anyway, this is my view. Others may have a different point of view. In
>> 18 months time, we will see who is right.
>
> Other than replacing a dead video board, why would one want to put a new
> video board in an 18-month-old motherboard?

Er, let me think........ to speed the system up perhaps????????

You make it sound like an 18 month old motherboard is a fossil. There's
people out there still using 486's, you know. P3's are commonplace and
circa 2GHz P4's are everywhere.

Someone with a typical *modern* system (maybe an Athlon 64 3500+ with 1GB
ram in an nforce3 motherboard) might very well decide to replace their (say)
aging 9600 Pro in perhaps 18 months.

Maybe your advice to them is to buy a new motherboard? Well that's fine and
dandy for people inclined to do such upgrades. But what about the other 99%
of the population who can barely figure out how to fit a new CD rom drive?
The people who bought Dells, or HPs, or Gateways or whatever? They are
hardly the sort who will relish the prospect of fitting a new motherboard,
are they. And I doubt they will relish the prospect of buying a whole new
PC either, just to make Quake 4 run a little faster. Their logical,
inexpensive, easy to install option will be to buy a new AGP graphics card.

I'm done arguing about this now. I think my point of view is clear, well
thought out and logical. And correct, btw. If you think otherwise, then
that's up to you.

Chip
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:01:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:38:50 -0500, "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid>
wrote:


>
>Other than replacing a dead video board, why would one want to put a new
>video board in an 18-month-old motherboard?
>>

I've been wondering this myself.

My motherboard is about 18 months old, my video card was about 5 years old,
you know one of them old fashoned things called a Matrox G400.

Speed and performance increases in the applications that I use are minor,
problems caused by card or its drivers in one of my OS's are not so minor.

I maybe refitting a card that although old is still capable of handling
most non gaming applications without any problems.


--

Kevin
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:26:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

K Olley wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:38:50 -0500, "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Other than replacing a dead video board, why would one want to put a new
>>video board in an 18-month-old motherboard?
>>>
>
> I've been wondering this myself.
>
> My motherboard is about 18 months old, my video card was about 5 years
> old, you know one of them old fashoned things called a Matrox G400.
>
> Speed and performance increases in the applications that I use are minor,
> problems caused by card or its drivers in one of my OS's are not so minor.
>
> I maybe refitting a card that although old is still capable of handling
> most non gaming applications without any problems.

Yup. It comes as a shock to many people that high frame rates in games is
mostly of concern to a few hobbyists, not to the majority of people who use
computers as working tools.
>
>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 4:49:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip:
> Someone with a typical *modern* system (maybe an Athlon 64 3500+ with
> 1GB ram in an nforce3 motherboard) might very well decide to replace
> their (say) aging 9600 Pro in perhaps 18 months.
>
> Maybe your advice to them is to buy a new motherboard?

My advice was to buy a 6800/GT or buy a new motherboard. Everytime the
standard changes, people are eventually forced to upgrade to the new
hardware.

> Well that's
> fine and dandy for people inclined to do such upgrades. But what
> about the other 99% of the population who can barely figure out how
> to fit a new CD rom drive? The people who bought Dells, or HPs, or
> Gateways or whatever?

What do you think those people did when VLB became the standard, then
again when PCI became the standard, then again when AGP became the
standard?

> Their logical, inexpensive, easy
> to install option will be to buy a new AGP graphics card.

Exactly. There will be AGP cards available, no one has said there
wouldn't be, but you keep arguing as if we were claiming that AGP would
just cease to exist tomorrow. What will happen is that new AGP
motherboards will become scarce and eventually new cards will only come
out in PCI-E. People with older hardware will be able to upgrade to a
point, but they will not be able to buy the newest gaming cards in an
AGP format.

Suppose I want to upgrade the old PII system I have sitting in the
closet. It isn't reasonable to believe that I can buy a 6800GT PCI video
card, but I can buy a Voodoo3 PCI which would be plenty powerful for
that system.

> I'm done arguing about this now. I think my point of view is clear,
> well thought out and logical. And correct, btw. If you think
> otherwise, then that's up to you.

I didn't realize you had a point, just vague objections.
--
Mac Cool
January 14, 2005 1:01:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cs7eco1463@news1.newsguy.com...

> Any point of view that has people who "can barely figure out how to fit a
> new CD rom drive" going out in search of cutting edge video boards for
> year
> and a half old machines has a serious flaw in it.

If you think that "non-techies" will regard fitting a new motherboard as no
more difficult than fitting a new AGP graphics card, then you are misguided.
Fitting an new graphics card is easy. Fitting a new motherboard is much,
much more difficult and daunting, as you well know.

I think you are ignoring - or choosing to ignore - the fact that the people
mixing on forums like this one are a tiny tiny percentage of the overall
market.

I guesss 95%+ of PC sales (and probably more) are through big name OEMs to
either retail outlets or to businesses. Have you any idea how many dads
have bought PC's for their kids to use, and to game on? Dads who aren't
techies, but who do know when their kids tell them that the PC won't run the
latest game very well.

Sure, some of them will just dump the whole thing and buy a new PC. But
*some* of them will want to buy a new graphics card.

Chip
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 3:22:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:

> Yup. It comes as a shock to many people that high frame rates in
> games is mostly of concern to a few hobbyists, not to the majority of
> people who use computers as working tools.

Bite your tongue! Those of us shovelling all our spare money into the
bottomless upgrade pit are the only true PC hobbyists!

--
dvus
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 11:14:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:

[snip]
> Who was it who said "Never argue with an idiot. They just drag you
> down to their level and then beat you with experience." Wise words. I
> never learn.

That's not really fair. He's given you well reasoned explanations for his
opinions, they just happen to differ from yours. That's all part of a
discussion forum like this one. It'd be pretty boring if we all thought the
exact same thing about everything.

--
dvus
January 15, 2005 6:33:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"dvus" <dven1invalid@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:34r92oF4dgqutU1@individual.net...
> Chip wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> Who was it who said "Never argue with an idiot. They just drag you
>> down to their level and then beat you with experience." Wise words. I
>> never learn.
>
> That's not really fair. He's given you well reasoned explanations for his
> opinions, they just happen to differ from yours. That's all part of a
> discussion forum like this one. It'd be pretty boring if we all thought
> the exact same thing about everything.

On balance, I think my comment was fair. If you look at it, J. Clarke
simply argued with everything I said, choosing to ignore any of my comments
that were so obviously correct that arguing with them would make him look
even more silly. I conclude he is an argumentative git and I got bored with
the whole thread.

Chip
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 6:43:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

dvus wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Yup. It comes as a shock to many people that high frame rates in
>> games is mostly of concern to a few hobbyists, not to the majority of
>> people who use computers as working tools.
>
> Bite your tongue! Those of us shovelling all our spare money into the
> bottomless upgrade pit are the only true PC hobbyists!

Precisely my point. People who use computers as working tools don't shovel
all their spare money into the bottomless upgrade pit.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 9:39:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Chip" <anneonymouse@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:34cigjF44ps51U1@individual.net
> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>
> [snip]
>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't
>> die, it remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely
>> follow the course of VLB.
>
> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely
> with the first sentence:
>
> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had a
> huge install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully
> in use."
> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it has "a
> huge install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed
> graphics cards and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>
> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
> motherboards for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>
> Chip

True enough Chip. The way that onboard chipsets have taken on most of
the pc's common functions now, even decent sound, the PCI slots sit
mostly vacant now. Two years ago I had 5 PCI slots full plus the AGP
vid card. Now I have 1 of 5 PCI slots occupied and if I chose to use
the 8 channel onboard sound all 5 could be empty. The AGP slot remains
occupied however :)  It didn't really take the local bus VESA slots too
long to die, they were just too slow, and cumbersome. They looked to be
an interim effort in the first place. But AGP is pretty fast, and it
does have a rather large installed base now. I'd look for it to be
phased out in about two years with PCI-E, if that standard sticks
around.
There is nothing out there in new video card performance that makes me
want to buy a new mobo, CPU and vid card all at one time. The
transition for a lot of us is a really major one cost wise. For those
wanting to build a complete new system, sure, go with PCI-E.
McG.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 9:41:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Chip" <anneonymouse@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:34f2nsF490475U1@individual.net
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:crrkeo01auo@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Chip wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot didn't
>>>> die, it remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more closely
>>>> follow the course of VLB.
>>>
>>> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree completely
>>> with the
>>> first sentence:
>>>
>>> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they had
>>> a huge
>>> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully in
>>> use." And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it
>>> has
>>> "a huge install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed
>>> graphics cards and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>>>
>>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
>>> motherboards for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>>
>> What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP hardware
>> will be put on the back burner or halted so that you won't be able
>> to get any new features on AGP video or motherboards and AGP
>> technology will effectively be frozen at some level.
>
> To an extent I agree. I still envisage at least one more generation
> of ATI and nVidia chips being available on AGP cards. Probably more
> than one. You have to remember that neither nVidia nor ATI make the
> cards and there are a plethora of oems all jostling for a slice of
> the market, trying to find different differentiators and ways to grab
> a piece of market share. With the *vast* number of AGP motherboards
> installed out there, I find it inconceivable that none of the card
> oems will want to offer AGP versions of their cards.
>
> Chip

I agree with you totally there. None of the video chip makers *except*
Intel will stop producing new GPU's for AGP.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 9:53:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cs1b83115ck@news3.newsguy.com
> Chip wrote:
>
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:cruokm1rei@news3.newsguy.com...
>>> Chip wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:crrkeo01auo@news3.newsguy.com...
>>>>> Chip wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:Xns95D7E14E429A6MacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>> PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary
>>>>>>> because they had a huge install base and because the slot
>>>>>>> didn't die, it remained fully in use. I suspect AGP will more
>>>>>>> closely follow the course of VLB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What a strange conclusion you choose to draw. I agree
>>>>>> completely with the
>>>>>> first sentence:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "PCI and ISA hung around for longer than necessary because they
>>>>>> had a huge
>>>>>> install base and because the slot didn't die, it remained fully
>>>>>> in use."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then when you consider AGP, wouldn't you also say that it
>>>>>> has "a huge
>>>>>> install base"? I would, given that 99% of all installed graphics
>>>>>> cards and motherboards are AGP today!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you will be able to buy new AGP graphics cards (and
>>>>>> motherboards
>>>>>> for that matter) for quite some time yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's likely to happen though is that development of AGP
>>>>> hardware will be put on the back burner or halted so that you
>>>>> won't be able to get any new features on AGP video or
>>>>> motherboards and AGP technology will effectively be frozen at
>>>>> some level.
>>>>
>>>> To an extent I agree. I still envisage at least one more
>>>> generation of ATI
>>>> and nVidia chips being available on AGP cards. Probably more than
>>>> one. You have to remember that neither nVidia nor ATI make the
>>>> cards and there are a plethora of oems all jostling for a slice of
>>>> the market, trying to find
>>>> different differentiators and ways to grab a piece of market share.
>>>> With the *vast* number of AGP motherboards installed out there, I
>>>> find it inconceivable that none of the card oems will want to
>>>> offer AGP versions of their cards.
>>>
>>> The board manufacturer doesn't get to arbitrarily decide which
>>> interface to
>>> use though--if the chip supports PCI Express and the manufacturer
>>> wants to use AGP then unless the chip manufacturer has an approved
>>> bridge chip the board manufacturer has to get it from a third party
>>> and then beat the combination into submission.
>>
>> Of course. But since the nVidia chips are (all?) native AGP parts, I
>> can't
>> see them dropping AGP any time soon. You don't need any adapter to
>> run AGP chips on an AGP bus!
>
> I suspect their next generation is going to be PCI Express natively.
>>
>> Chip

Nope, it's already not. Nvidia and ATI are producing both with greater
production in AGP. But we don't have much of a glimpse into the
generation after that....
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 9:57:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95DAD3CC54BBDMacCool@130.133.1.4
> Chip:
>> what about your average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What
>> will *he* buy in 12-18 months from now?
>
> A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
> A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.

Really? I wonder. Well, that's something to look at in a couple
years. Time will tell.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 9:59:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cs3hiu12ar0@news1.newsguy.com
> Chip wrote:
>
>>
>> "Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns95DAD3CC54BBDMacCool@130.133.1.4...
>>> Chip:
>>>> what about your average punter with a 2.6GHz P4 and ATI 9600. What
>>>> will *he* buy in 12-18 months from now?
>>>
>>> A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
>>> A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.
>>> --
>>> Mac Cool
>>
>> I don't get your point. No-one would want to buy a *new* AGP
>> motherboard in
>> 18 months. That would be crazy.
>>
>> But, 18 months from now, if you own an AGP motherboard and you want
>> to buy a
>> new graphics card, what are you going to want to buy? An AGP
>> graphics card! That's why manufacturers will continue to offer
>> them... because if there is market demand, someone will cater for it.
>>
>> Let me offer you an analogy:
>>
>> Do PCI-Express cards offer any speed advantages over AGP? No, not
>> really. Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.
>>
>> Do sata disks offer any improvement over IDE disks? No, not really.
>> Marginal improvement at best. Perhaps none at all.
>>
>> Do ALL new motherboards come with sata ports? Yes.
>>
>> Can you still buy a PATA disk today? Yes. Why? Because their is
>> still demand for them.
>>
>> Anyway, this is my view. Others may have a different point of view.
>> In 18 months time, we will see who is right.
>
> Other than replacing a dead video board, why would one want to put a
> new video board in an 18-month-old motherboard?
>>
>> Chip

Why not? More performance. Top of the line mobos tend to have more
futurability than video cards.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 10:36:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:
> "dvus" <dven1invalid@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:34r92oF4dgqutU1@individual.net...
>> Chip wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>> Who was it who said "Never argue with an idiot. They just drag you
>>> down to their level and then beat you with experience." Wise
>>> words. I never learn.
>>
>> That's not really fair. He's given you well reasoned explanations
>> for his opinions, they just happen to differ from yours. That's all
>> part of a discussion forum like this one. It'd be pretty boring if
>> we all thought the exact same thing about everything.
>
> On balance, I think my comment was fair. If you look at it, J. Clarke
> simply argued with everything I said, choosing to ignore any of my
> comments that were so obviously correct that arguing with them would

Actually, he addressed each of your statements with one his own.

> make him look even more silly. I conclude he is an argumentative git
> and I got bored with the whole thread.

He may be an "argumentative git", but I think we all are to some degree. I
also think you just lost your composure, momentarily perhaps?

--
dvus
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 10:40:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:
> dvus wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Yup. It comes as a shock to many people that high frame rates in
>>> games is mostly of concern to a few hobbyists, not to the majority
>>> of people who use computers as working tools.
>>
>> Bite your tongue! Those of us shovelling all our spare money into the
>> bottomless upgrade pit are the only true PC hobbyists!
>
> Precisely my point. People who use computers as working tools don't
> shovel all their spare money into the bottomless upgrade pit.

Yeah, the PC I used for work was hardly ever upgraded once it was working,
and then only slightly and VERY carefully. The one at home gets all the new
stuff thrown at it, like every new OS upgrade and weird hardware like
shutter-glasses or whatever.

--
dvus
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 4:46:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

McGrandpa:

>> A 6800GT? A new PCI-E motherboard?
>> A new AGP motherboard 18 months from now would be useless.
>
> Really? I wonder. Well, that's something to look at in a couple
> years. Time will tell.

The newest generation of ATI and Nvidia video cards came out in PCI-E
first, then AGP to soothe the existing user base. The next generation of
video cards (12-18 mos.) will almost certainly be PCI-E only, certainly
the high end cards, although it is likely a few low end AGP cards will be
made. Anyone who still has an AGP motherboard will either have to content
themselves with a 6800 series card (not a bad option) or pick among the
available AGP options or upgrade their motherboard. If you and Chip want
to argue that AGP is going to continue indefinitely, then you're going to
have to offer a cogent argument for video card manufacturers accepting
lower profits to support an outmoded standard. "Because everyone has AGP"
isn't sufficient; at one time, 'everyone' had PCI, before that 'everyone'
had VLB, and before that 'EVERYONE' had ISA, but standards change and we
buy new hardware.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 5:08:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip wrote:
> Of course. But since the nVidia chips are (all?) native AGP parts, I can't
> see them dropping AGP any time soon. You don't need any adapter to run AGP
> chips on an AGP bus!
>
> Chip

The 6600GT is a native PCI Express design, AGP versions are implemented
with a bridge chip. I suspect most or all of NVIDIA's future GPUs will
be done that way..

--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hancockr@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 5:09:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
> In article <2JiEd.36917$8l.21421@pd7tw1no>, Robert Hancock
> <hancockr@nospamshaw.ca> writes
>
>
>>AGP, on the other hand, will not be
>>present on motherboards which support PCI Express.
>
>
> I've already seen at least one board that has both PCI Express and AGP.

A couple motherboard manufacturers have at least produced designs for
this. However, the AGP is implemented by connection into the normal PCI
bus, with a large decrease in performance, enough that it's really not
worth doing.

--
Robert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada
To email, remove "nospam" from hancockr@nospamshaw.ca
Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/
January 17, 2005 3:57:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95E0D35EA6A23MacCool@130.133.1.4...
> McGrandpa:
>

[snip]

>If you and Chip want
> to argue that AGP is going to continue indefinitely, then you're going to
> have to offer a cogent argument for video card manufacturers accepting
> lower profits to support an outmoded standard.

No-one is arguing that. Of course AGP will die out - as will PCI Express a
few years later.

All I said was that it will be around for a while yet. And I then clarified
that to say that *imho* you will be a able to buy a decent AGP graphics card
for at least 12 - 18 months from now.

Is that really *so* contentious an opinion. To be honest I think anyone who
wants to argue with that modest claim is simply potty.

BTW - Your "accepting lower profits" comment is off target. Even if I
accept that AGP cards will be more expensive to manufacture (which is far
from a "given", since many PCI Express cards are currently native AGP with
adapters), then who's to say AGP cards can't command a price premium? What
would a prospective graphics card buyer do in say 12 months time; pay (say)
$200 for a new GF7600 PCI-E *and* $100 for a new PCI-E motherboard, or pay
(say) $210 for a new AGP GF7600? The latter would seem like a reasonable -
and low hassle - option.

Chip.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 4:22:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip:

> All I said was that it will be around for a while yet. And I then
> clarified that to say that *imho* you will be a able to buy a decent
> AGP graphics card for at least 12 - 18 months from now.
>
> Is that really *so* contentious an opinion. To be honest I think
> anyone who wants to argue with that modest claim is simply potty.

Actually you began the argument by disagreeing, using vague and
undefinable objections, with my statement that AGP will no longer be the
dominant video standard withing 12-18 months.

I welcome a difference of opinion but your posts seem like a knee-jerk
reaction rather than an actual opinion.

> BTW - Your "accepting lower profits" comment is off target. Even if
> I accept that AGP cards will be more expensive to manufacture

I never said that AGP cards would be more expensive to manufacture.
Look, I'm no expert on large scale manufacturing, but I know something
about smaller scale manufacturing and the key to profit is scale and
streamlining the process (overly simplified). Maintaining two standards
means either duplicate equipment, taking turns on the same equipment, or
buying more manufacturing capacity. It also means different packaging,
competing retail space and probably a dozen other profit reducing
factors I haven't thought of yet. The end result is the more popular
PCI-E becomes, the less incentive there is to produce an AGP product.
Now consider that the majority of video cards are sold to OEMs who are
going to buy PCI-E cards and you'll realize that it won't take years for
AGP to die out.
--
Mac Cool
January 18, 2005 6:07:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95E1CF5C65DF7MacCool@130.133.1.4...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Yawn.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 10:35:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

Chip:

> Yawn.

Keep the burger flipping job.
--
Mac Cool
January 19, 2005 12:33:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Mac Cool" <Mac@2cool.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95E29471C168MacCool@130.133.1.4...
> Chip:
>
>> Yawn.
>
> Keep the burger flipping job.

Dream on
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:07:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

> The newest generation of ATI and Nvidia video cards came out in PCI-E
> first, then AGP to soothe the existing user base. The next generation of
> video cards (12-18 mos.) will almost certainly be PCI-E only, certainly
> the high end cards, although it is likely a few low end AGP cards will be
> made.


AGP will be made in medium end cards for at least another 3 years(cause
there are a lot of motherboards sold even within the last year without
PCI-express.

With lower end cards for an additional 3-4 years on top of
that...possibly more.

The only reason they dont sell ISA video cards anymore is because it
isnt necessary...everyone in the last 10 years has a pci slot or shitty
integrated video. They still sell PCI video cards. I bought a 128mb FX
5200 for a friend.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 1:49:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

stephen voss wrote:
>
>> The newest generation of ATI and Nvidia video cards came out in PCI-E
>> first, then AGP to soothe the existing user base. The next generation
>> of video cards (12-18 mos.) will almost certainly be PCI-E only,
>> certainly the high end cards, although it is likely a few low end AGP
>> cards will be made.
>
>
>
> AGP will be made in medium end cards for at least another 3 years(cause
> there are a lot of motherboards sold even within the last year without
> PCI-express.
>
> With lower end cards for an additional 3-4 years on top of
> that...possibly more.
>
> The only reason they dont sell ISA video cards anymore is because it
> isnt necessary...everyone in the last 10 years has a pci slot or shitty
> integrated video. They still sell PCI video cards. I bought a 128mb FX
> 5200 for a friend.

The only reason ISA cards stopped selling is because ISA does not have
the bandwidth to even support a 2D desktop at responsive speeds for
resolutions > 800x600. Remember the VL bus? :-)
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 2:26:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia (More info?)

"Jim George" <jimgeorge_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0OOdneBgMt_SrKzfRVn-uw@comcast.com
> stephen voss wrote:
>>
>>> The newest generation of ATI and Nvidia video cards came out in
>>> PCI-E first, then AGP to soothe the existing user base. The next
>>> generation of video cards (12-18 mos.) will almost certainly be
>>> PCI-E only, certainly the high end cards, although it is likely a
>>> few low end AGP cards will be made.
>>
>>
>>
>> AGP will be made in medium end cards for at least another 3
>> years(cause there are a lot of motherboards sold even within the
>> last year without PCI-express.
>>
>> With lower end cards for an additional 3-4 years on top of
>> that...possibly more.
>>
>> The only reason they dont sell ISA video cards anymore is because it
>> isnt necessary...everyone in the last 10 years has a pci slot or
>> shitty integrated video. They still sell PCI video cards. I bought a
>> 128mb FX 5200 for a friend.
>
> The only reason ISA cards stopped selling is because ISA does not have
> the bandwidth to even support a 2D desktop at responsive speeds for
> resolutions > 800x600. Remember the VL bus? :-)

Sigh. Been a long time man. I still have most of my old video cards.
ATI VGA Wonder 1.0 with 512K ram, ATI VGA Wonder XL24 with a meg,
Hercules Dynamite Pro VL, Diamond Viper 3D 128 VL. Then come a few PCI
cards and a bunch of AGP cards. I really should sit down and add up how
much I've spent on just video cards alone in the past 20 years. But my
buying trend sped up with the release of Quake :)  That trend hasn't
slowed down much.
McG.
!