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Attn: 832GM and other XP Owners

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Anonymous
July 20, 2005 8:59:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Bear with me, this is lengthy.

I have discovered a problem with the Gateway install of XP MCE in my 832GM
that thus far Gateway is unwilling to resolve.

This may affect you, too, cuz it may be endemic to all Gateway MCE boxes,
and maybe even all Gateway XP and e-Machines XP boxes.

I ran the Recover Procedure on my new 832GM shortly after first full boot to
be sure those 5 Recovery disks worked. If they didn't, better to find out
now than
down the road when the whole, fully configured system was at stake. The MCE
superset had not yet been loaded nor had anything else. At this point I had
a virgin
system based upon the Gateway supplied OS.

The very next thing I did was to run Windows' own System File Checker (SFC.)
In XP, SFC is part of its Windows File Protection system. SFC should always
be
run immediately after every install of any flavor of Windows, and should
also be
run first if Windows seems to indicate something screwy at the Operating
System
level. See Microsoft Knowledgebase article Q 310747 for more on SFC.
Fred Langa also has a couple of pieces on the necessity of regularly running
SFC, and especially after an install or a recovery.

Now, for the past several versions of Windows (up to XP) SFC was listed in
the Tools menu of the System Information accessory (which itself is listed
on the System Tools menu under Accessories. For pre-XP:

Start > Programs > Accessories > System Tools > System Information > Tools
Menu > System File Checker.

It is still available in all flavors of XP, but not on any menu. It must be
launched from Start > Run. Type:

sfc /scannow and then OK.

Takes maybe 20 minutes, but verifies the integrity of about 4500 system
files necessary for Windows to run properly.

Do not let the relative obscurity of SFC cause you to underestimate its
power or importance. It is an essential tool.

On my virgin install using Gateway Recovery disks, SFC found several broken
system files.

To fix them, it said, "Files that are required for Windows to run properly
must be copied to the dll cache. Insert your Windows Professional CD2 now."

Note that when SFC finds a bad system file, it first looks to
Windows\System32\dllcache for an unmolested copy with which to effect a
cure.
If it those copies are broken, too, it then looks to the XP Installation
source
files on the install CD, thinking that for sure those copies cannot be
corrupt.
It then first repopulates the dllcache file with (presumably) good copies
from the
CD and then replaces the broken files it found in the system folders with
(now)
good copies from the just-repaired dllcache.

Great. But Gateway does not (and will not) furnish the requested and
necessary Windows install disks on retail machines such as the 832GM.
These are the very source disks that Windows needs to replace those
broken files. Inserting any of the 5 Gateway Recovery disks results in a
"Wrong disk, try again" message.

In XP, SFC does not describe specifically which files are broken, nor does
it allow you to point to where the replacement files may be. It expects
that if you have a legit install of XP, that you must also have the install
disks and that is what it wants to see to fix the problems. It knows where
to look on a legit install CD2, and it doesn't wanna hear any sob stories.

In other words, no conventional install disks, no fix.

A couple of additional notes. For sure there are copies of the needed files
on the Recovery disks. And if you can figure out where they are, you can
extract the lot of them, put them in a folder on your hard drive somewhere,
and hack the registry to point SFC to look to that new folder for
replacement
files, instead of looking to the XP install disks which Gateway will not
give you.

Problem with that is, I am assuming, that the files on those Recovery disks
are the ones that are broken to begin with! That is based upon the
anecdotal evidence that my 5 minute old install from those Recovery disks
is the one that had those several corrupt files. No other way they coulda
been
violated, so to speak. (And yeah, I ran MBR and bare metal virus scans and
such.)

So what is needed is a valid copy of the Windows XP system installation
disks.
The Gateway-specific drivers, apps, and so on do not matter to SFC.

Now, those several broken Windows system files may be of no consequence.
Hey, what's a few bad dll's out of a few thousand? But I am not willing to
take
the chance that some day one of them will be needed and will cause my
system to do a nasty dance and cost me business. Are you?

Two hours plus on the phone with Gateway and the guy says sorry, but
licensing with Microsoft prevents them from sending me the disks that
Windows is asking for to fix the problem. He will, however, *sell* them to
me for the discounted price of $99 USD.

(Note that the new MCE puters bought from Gateway directly *do* include
separate OS install disks. It's the retail ones like mine from Circuit
City, Best
Buy, Comp USA, and so on that do not.)

I told him there are two chances I'll pay another $99 to fix a $1000.00
system
I just bought that is under *warranty.* And Slim just left the building.

I asked how, then, are they gonna fix my system as the warranty promises?

He had no idea, but said he will try to duplicate the problem on one of
their
832GM's if he gets a chance over the next couple of days.

Again, these bum files may be of no importance. But to see for yourself
if you, too, have bad core XP system files, run:

sfc /scannow

And see if you are running a system with a damaged foundation.

This may affect all retail Gateway computers, and maybe even all e-Machines.
I dunno. But none of 'em come with the parts needed to fix them if they are
broken. Nor will Gateway, at this point, anyway, give you those parts, even
under warranty!!

I may be the first guy ever to run SFC on an XP Gateway (because SFC is
hidden in XP) so it is possible that no one has run across this before.
Maybe it is just an issue with gateway MCE boxes. Again, dunno. And
maybe it is just me.

So run SFC yourself and see what your situation is. If you find broken
system
files and you can't fix them because you do not have the install disks that
are
needed for the repair, call Gateway. Or roll the dice and hope that they are
files your system may never need.

By the way, since you will not be able to feed SFC the repair disk it wants,
you will have to cancel out of the program when you are finished. The
number of times you have to hit the "Cancel" button is the number of bad
system files you have.

Bottom line: When Gateway tells you you'll never need the conventional
Windows XP install CD-ROM's, well, here is a situation where you do.

You should know I am a long time Gateway owner and supporter (since early
90's) and I believe the 832GM to be an awesome machine and a real
bargain. The just released 840GM is even a better deal!

And the couple of support calls I've had to make recently were all answered
in less than 30 seconds, and by folks in Utah, USA. They immediately gave
me their name and Badge Number, and while not the most computer literate,
they do listen, and listen very well. The level 2 guys - the CRM's - seem
to be quite knowledgeable.

But I am not gonna let Gateway off the hook on this. If Windows says it
needs the real install disk as the only way to fix a problem, then I / we
need
that disk. Period. This is a simple condition of the warranty.

It is not acceptable to be expected to run a system as complex as XP, and
more so XP MCE, knowing that some core Windows system files are bad. In
fact, it is unsafe.

Wanna fly on an airplane knowing before takeoff that there are some core
parts that are busted, but you don't know which ones?

Wanna expose you personal stuff to the internet knowing that some key files
on your computer don't work, but you don't know which ones?

I'm kinda hoping that it is only me with this problem (altruistic guy that I
am, LOL) but if I'm not, reply to this group with what you've found.

And if I am all wet on this, tell me that, too!

Russ

rustysob at bellsouth dee oh tee net

More about : attn 832gm owners

July 21, 2005 11:57:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

You got my curiosity so I tried SFC on a 2 year old Gateway that I had just
reload a week ago, the only thing I have on the system are phone tools,
roxio ez cd creator ver. 5., norton internet securtity and all the windows
updates including service pack 2.

SFC also prompted me to insert the windows cd, I have the Gateway OS cd for
xp. Every time it found a file that need to be replaced I had to click on
"retry" then SFC continued.
Immediately after it should have replaced all the corrupt dll files I ran
SFC again and it still prompted me for the windows cd. I would think all
the corrupt files had been fixed.

Now I'm wonder what's going on so I tried the same thing on another system
running xp pro from microsoft, same thing happen, prompted me for the
windows cd, had to click on "retry" every time it found a file. Ran it again
after it finished and it kept find more files. It doesn't give you the file
name so I don't know if they are the same files or not.

Well that's my experience, I guess at this point I don't have much faith in
xp's SFC.


"Russ Edwards" <rustysob@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wVyDe.8439$Wt3.2323@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Bear with me, this is lengthy.
>
> I have discovered a problem with the Gateway install of XP MCE in my 832GM
> that thus far Gateway is unwilling to resolve.
>
> This may affect you, too, cuz it may be endemic to all Gateway MCE boxes,
> and maybe even all Gateway XP and e-Machines XP boxes.
>
> I ran the Recover Procedure on my new 832GM shortly after first full boot
> to
> be sure those 5 Recovery disks worked. If they didn't, better to find out
> now than
> down the road when the whole, fully configured system was at stake. The
> MCE
> superset had not yet been loaded nor had anything else. At this point I
> had
> a virgin
> system based upon the Gateway supplied OS.
>
> The very next thing I did was to run Windows' own System File Checker
> (SFC.)
> In XP, SFC is part of its Windows File Protection system. SFC should
> always
> be
> run immediately after every install of any flavor of Windows, and should
> also be
> run first if Windows seems to indicate something screwy at the Operating
> System
> level. See Microsoft Knowledgebase article Q 310747 for more on SFC.
> Fred Langa also has a couple of pieces on the necessity of regularly
> running
> SFC, and especially after an install or a recovery.
>
> Now, for the past several versions of Windows (up to XP) SFC was listed in
> the Tools menu of the System Information accessory (which itself is listed
> on the System Tools menu under Accessories. For pre-XP:
>
> Start > Programs > Accessories > System Tools > System Information > Tools
> Menu > System File Checker.
>
> It is still available in all flavors of XP, but not on any menu. It must
> be
> launched from Start > Run. Type:
>
> sfc /scannow and then OK.
>
> Takes maybe 20 minutes, but verifies the integrity of about 4500 system
> files necessary for Windows to run properly.
>
> Do not let the relative obscurity of SFC cause you to underestimate its
> power or importance. It is an essential tool.
>
> On my virgin install using Gateway Recovery disks, SFC found several
> broken
> system files.
>
> To fix them, it said, "Files that are required for Windows to run properly
> must be copied to the dll cache. Insert your Windows Professional CD2
> now."
>
> Note that when SFC finds a bad system file, it first looks to
> Windows\System32\dllcache for an unmolested copy with which to effect a
> cure.
> If it those copies are broken, too, it then looks to the XP Installation
> source
> files on the install CD, thinking that for sure those copies cannot be
> corrupt.
> It then first repopulates the dllcache file with (presumably) good copies
> from the
> CD and then replaces the broken files it found in the system folders with
> (now)
> good copies from the just-repaired dllcache.
>
> Great. But Gateway does not (and will not) furnish the requested and
> necessary Windows install disks on retail machines such as the 832GM.
> These are the very source disks that Windows needs to replace those
> broken files. Inserting any of the 5 Gateway Recovery disks results in a
> "Wrong disk, try again" message.
>
> In XP, SFC does not describe specifically which files are broken, nor does
> it allow you to point to where the replacement files may be. It expects
> that if you have a legit install of XP, that you must also have the
> install
> disks and that is what it wants to see to fix the problems. It knows
> where
> to look on a legit install CD2, and it doesn't wanna hear any sob stories.
>
> In other words, no conventional install disks, no fix.
>
> A couple of additional notes. For sure there are copies of the needed
> files
> on the Recovery disks. And if you can figure out where they are, you can
> extract the lot of them, put them in a folder on your hard drive
> somewhere,
> and hack the registry to point SFC to look to that new folder for
> replacement
> files, instead of looking to the XP install disks which Gateway will not
> give you.
>
> Problem with that is, I am assuming, that the files on those Recovery
> disks
> are the ones that are broken to begin with! That is based upon the
> anecdotal evidence that my 5 minute old install from those Recovery disks
> is the one that had those several corrupt files. No other way they coulda
> been
> violated, so to speak. (And yeah, I ran MBR and bare metal virus scans
> and
> such.)
>
> So what is needed is a valid copy of the Windows XP system installation
> disks.
> The Gateway-specific drivers, apps, and so on do not matter to SFC.
>
> Now, those several broken Windows system files may be of no consequence.
> Hey, what's a few bad dll's out of a few thousand? But I am not willing
> to
> take
> the chance that some day one of them will be needed and will cause my
> system to do a nasty dance and cost me business. Are you?
>
> Two hours plus on the phone with Gateway and the guy says sorry, but
> licensing with Microsoft prevents them from sending me the disks that
> Windows is asking for to fix the problem. He will, however, *sell* them
> to
> me for the discounted price of $99 USD.
>
> (Note that the new MCE puters bought from Gateway directly *do* include
> separate OS install disks. It's the retail ones like mine from Circuit
> City, Best
> Buy, Comp USA, and so on that do not.)
>
> I told him there are two chances I'll pay another $99 to fix a $1000.00
> system
> I just bought that is under *warranty.* And Slim just left the building.
>
> I asked how, then, are they gonna fix my system as the warranty promises?
>
> He had no idea, but said he will try to duplicate the problem on one of
> their
> 832GM's if he gets a chance over the next couple of days.
>
> Again, these bum files may be of no importance. But to see for yourself
> if you, too, have bad core XP system files, run:
>
> sfc /scannow
>
> And see if you are running a system with a damaged foundation.
>
> This may affect all retail Gateway computers, and maybe even all
> e-Machines.
> I dunno. But none of 'em come with the parts needed to fix them if they
> are
> broken. Nor will Gateway, at this point, anyway, give you those parts,
> even
> under warranty!!
>
> I may be the first guy ever to run SFC on an XP Gateway (because SFC is
> hidden in XP) so it is possible that no one has run across this before.
> Maybe it is just an issue with gateway MCE boxes. Again, dunno. And
> maybe it is just me.
>
> So run SFC yourself and see what your situation is. If you find broken
> system
> files and you can't fix them because you do not have the install disks
> that
> are
> needed for the repair, call Gateway. Or roll the dice and hope that they
> are
> files your system may never need.
>
> By the way, since you will not be able to feed SFC the repair disk it
> wants,
> you will have to cancel out of the program when you are finished. The
> number of times you have to hit the "Cancel" button is the number of bad
> system files you have.
>
> Bottom line: When Gateway tells you you'll never need the conventional
> Windows XP install CD-ROM's, well, here is a situation where you do.
>
> You should know I am a long time Gateway owner and supporter (since early
> 90's) and I believe the 832GM to be an awesome machine and a real
> bargain. The just released 840GM is even a better deal!
>
> And the couple of support calls I've had to make recently were all
> answered
> in less than 30 seconds, and by folks in Utah, USA. They immediately gave
> me their name and Badge Number, and while not the most computer literate,
> they do listen, and listen very well. The level 2 guys - the CRM's - seem
> to be quite knowledgeable.
>
> But I am not gonna let Gateway off the hook on this. If Windows says it
> needs the real install disk as the only way to fix a problem, then I / we
> need
> that disk. Period. This is a simple condition of the warranty.
>
> It is not acceptable to be expected to run a system as complex as XP, and
> more so XP MCE, knowing that some core Windows system files are bad. In
> fact, it is unsafe.
>
> Wanna fly on an airplane knowing before takeoff that there are some core
> parts that are busted, but you don't know which ones?
>
> Wanna expose you personal stuff to the internet knowing that some key
> files
> on your computer don't work, but you don't know which ones?
>
> I'm kinda hoping that it is only me with this problem (altruistic guy that
> I
> am, LOL) but if I'm not, reply to this group with what you've found.
>
> And if I am all wet on this, tell me that, too!
>
> Russ
>
> rustysob at bellsouth dee oh tee net
>
>
>
July 22, 2005 2:45:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

I did a little test on my made in America White Box desktop. I ran
sfc to see and I got a message close to yours "Files that are required
for Windows to run properly must be copied to the dll cache. Insert
your Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 CD now”. Okay, that’s
fine and dandy but I run XP home, not Professional but what does Bill
Gates know… the man that once said that 640K should be enough for
anybody. Anyway, I put my Windows XP Home Service Pack 2 CD in and
sfc seemed to be pleased.

I then tried the test on my made in Taiwan with the GW name painted on
it laptop with the same results. Oh yea, my laptop was from the era
when they actually gave you a restoration and OS CD with a new system
since you were paying for it in the first place. Of course, you
always get a copy of the OS with White Boxes. Anyway, sfc on the
laptop went fine with its supplied OS cd in the slot.

Now the real test, I ran sfc on the Taiwanese laptop with the GW name
painted on it and put the OS disk from the desktop in the slot when it
asked for it and it accepted that disk also…. So……. I think you can
get yourself a copy of someone’s OS and use it for this purpose. I
would guess that it would have to be the same XP version as the one
the Taiwanese installed on your system but it should work. You don’t
need the stupid M$ activation junk since you will not be installing
the OS, just using the copy for sfc purposes.

Even though my Taiwanese Laptop with the GW name painted on it has an
OEM OS and the American Made White Box desktop has a retail OS on it,
both are the same versions and both have been slipstreamed with SP2
and sfc run on the Taiwanese laptop accepted the OS CD from the
desktop.

Give it a try and see. All you can loose is the cost of a CD.

Regards,
Ed
Related resources
July 22, 2005 2:52:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:57:07 -0500, "Jim" <donr503@yahoo.com> wrote:


>Now I'm wonder what's going on so I tried the same thing on another system
>running xp pro from microsoft, same thing happen

Same here. Everything I ran it, it would "appear" to be adding all
the files again by me having to keep hitting the retry.

And there was absolutely no feedback coming to me from the program as
to what it was finding, replacing, or anything. Makes you think this
sfc is made by M$... Oh.... it is! Maybe its like their wonderful
anti-adware program... you know, the one that hunts for adware and
ignores ones manufactured my friends of M$.

Anyway, as you, I was not impressed at all.

Regards,
Ed
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 5:11:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Hi, Jim, thanks for the reply.

And thanks to all who replied by e-mail.

This seems to be evolving into two issues - the quality of SFC, and the
quality of Gateway's support.

You may be right about SFC.

My very limited collection of data on this is maybe 50/50. Sometimes one
run fixes everything, and sometimes it finds corrupt files no matter how
often it is run.

It would be helpful if the specific filenames were given, and more helpful
if you could browse to a location where you had a known good copy of that
file and then point SFC to retrieve that file.

I assume that Microsoft does not do that these days, and instead wants to
see your XP install disk not only to snag the needed files, but to
surreptitiously verify that your install disks are genuine.

I can see how SFC might never be satisfied on an OEM install of XP. But it
is puzzling why it keeps finding files on your MS install.

I can only suppose that, much like XP's lame defragmenter, maybe it needs to
be run several times to get the job done. It may only have the capacity to
replace a handful of files at a time. I just dunno.

Someone suggested I temporarily move all of the files out of the dllcache
folder and see if SFC rebuilds the whole thing. I would, if Gateway would
be so kind as to send me the XP installation disks to try!

Someone else sent the following link:

http://www.updatexp.com/scannow-sfc.html

Among the SFC issues discussed there was the following re: the dllcache
folder:

".not ALL installations of Windows XP have ALL the system files cached into
this folder! You may only have around 50MB of files in this folder under
Windows XP depending on the quota settings in the registry. (Under Windows
2003 Server the default is 300MB of system files!)"

My virgin system has ~600MB in dllcache.

Someone else said that if the files are compressed there is a possibility
that SFC will have difficulty. I kinda doubt that because I think SFC looks
at the actual system files in use, and not those copies stored and
compressed in the dllcache folder.

So yeah, maybe there is no cause for major alarm if SFC says you have some
cracks in your foundation, but while not mission critical, I do need to
depend in large part on this computer not going south at a bad time.

And in my case I have no idea what will happen if I feed SFC the disk it
wants, because Gateway will not provide that disk to me.

Which is the second issue here - Gateway support.

As far as Gateway support is concerned (and this is probably of greater
interest to this group than SFC is) the suspect nature of SFC (that we now
know to be the case) is not what counts.

Rightly or wrongly, a Microsoft included tool reports that some files on a
virgin Gateway system are wonky. That same Microsoft tool suggests a
specific repair procedure that requires a specific part - that Windows XP
Professional CD #2.

Common sense, experience, and standard operating procedure all suggest that,
duh, well pop in that requested disk first, and see what happens. If it
fixes the problem, great. If not, then, depending upon your level of
risk-tolerance, you investigate further or roll the dice and forget about
it.

The problem that Gateway 832GM owners have, and probably other Gateway and
e-Machine owners as well, is that thus far Gateway has refused to supply
that part. At least to retail channel buyers.

Again, maybe that part will fix the problem, and maybe it won't. But is
there any better next step to verify those allegedly corrupt files than
simply inserting the disk that SFC is asking for?

Gateway seems to think so.

The latest e-mail from them says I need to send the whole computer to them
to for service!

This after me sending them a detailed description of this very simple
problem, as well as the Microsoft proposed very simple solution. (Insert
the disk!!! LOL)

Unfortunately that must have been way over their heads. I am almost kinda
missing the old tech support from India! LOL

But for sure their new stateside support folks have learned one thing from
their training - "protect our stash of XP install disks with your life! Do
what you gotta do to keep those disks outta the hands of those heathens who
dare buy a Gateway through the retail channel! If they want a set, hit 'em
up for $99 bucks. And even if they *need* a set, like that guy Russ in
Miami, don't give in, warranty or no warranty. What's he gonna do? Sue us?
Ha! He can't! We slipped an Arbitration clause in the warranty! Ha Ha Ha
Ha Ha.."

I am tempted to copy the correspondence between Gateway and me below, but
most folks here would need a pot of coffee to get through it all.

Related, I did some research into their Warranty Agreement and, while I am
not a lawyer, I do know my way around contracts. PDF version of their
Warranty Agreement here:

http://content.gateway.com/www.gateway.com/about/legal/...

This specific Warranty Agreement applies to all Gateway and e-Machines
purchased at retail through an Authorized Reseller, like Best Buy, Circuit
City, CompUSA, Home Shopping Network, Staples, Office Depot, and the like.

Here are a few of the things that jumped out at me.

They differentiate between software and hardware with respect to what they
will do for you.

They limit software support to "helping you reinstall the factory-installed
operating system and software and restore it to the original factory
configuration." That ain't much, is it?

Didn't Gateway used to also support Windows and the programs included with
the purchase?

Now, unless I am mistaken, they will still help you with Windows issues, but
it appears that under the Warranty Agreement they do not have to. We know
for sure that Microsoft will not help (at least not for free) with OEM
installs like these.

Scary.

More scary is this, and it is in bold type:

"Gateway does not guarantee that software will be free from errors, either
in isolation or in combination with hardware."

I guess they gotta say that, but that sure is a lot of wiggle room. If your
installed software doesn't work, they can say, "We never said it would!"

Additionally, for thirty days they will help you with the installation of
any network operating system purchased from Gateway.

Their one-year hardware support seems pretty conventional.

The real bugger is that, like so many vendors, acceptance of the Warranty
Agreement means you waive your right to sue Gateway through the traditional
Justice system. That means you cannot take them to Court, either
individually or as part of a Class Action. All disputes must be resolved
through expensive and binding arbitration through the National Arbitration
Forum.

This is not the place to discuss the pros and cons of dispute resolution via
NAF, but the internet is filled with discussion of what many consumers see
as an outrageous and patently unfair practice by manufacturers, credit card
companies, utilities, and so on.

Anyway, in the case of those who find the need for those Microsoft XP
installations disks, it can get tricky, with respect to the Warranty
Agreement.

In the SFC situation as discussed above, for example, an argument can be
made that it is not a software problem, although that is what it may seem to
be on first glance.

Gateway says they do not guarantee that software will be free from errors.

The key is that there are no errors in the software, but that some of the
files that compose that software are corrupt. More so, they are corrupt in
the particular image that Gateway has furnished, both on the preinstalled
image that comes with the computer, and also on the image created when the
user creates his or her Recovery disk set.

Errors in software are different than corrupt files on a particular or
specific installation of that software. When otherwise good files are
corrupt on an installed image, that is not an error but a defect. That is a
huge difference.

Moreover, what is necessary to repair those defective, corrupt files,
defective at least according to Microsoft's SFC in this case, is a part.
Specifically, a disk with good copies of those corrupt files.

Now, obviously, that "part" is not a hardware part, at least not in the
conventional sense, but within the scope of the Warranty Agreement those
factory-installed files are defective, and "Gateway warrants that its
products will be free from defects.."

The Warranty Agreement further provides that, among other options, "Gateway
will. provide replacement parts necessary to repair the product."

In this case the part needed is the Microsoft Windows XP Professional CD2,
per SFC.

Now, we know that SFC may or may not have accurately identified defective
files on the Gateway installed image. But to be sure we can't go any
further without Gateway providing the part SFC needs to do the repair work.

In other words, it is pretty clear that in this situation the Warranty
Agreements calls for Gateway to send that part - free of charge - to owners
whose systems report defective files.

Are there other situations when your computer will ask for the Windows
CD-ROM? Dunno, as I am somewhat new to XP. For sure 98SE regularly wants
the OS install disks for one thing or another.

But where I'm at, and I suspect others may be, too, is that I/we need those
disks to troubleshoot a problem that SFC reports I/we have.

Now, as a practical aside, I have other, legit, XP install disks. And I
could pop those in and maybe effect a solution. Not to be corny here, but
there is some principle involved. Most of us here agree that Gateway is but
a shell of its former self. And them trading on a once proud name is, well,
cheating a bit. And trying to stiff me out of a disk needed to fix their
apparent defect is cheating a bit too much. Maybe it was the insult of
telling me I had to pay $99 for the part to fix a defect on a brand new
computer. Dunno. But I am not gonna analyze the extent to which I should
cut them some slack and find a workaround on my own. If they, or any
company, wanna play the nickel and dime game they are gonna occasionally
have to pay the price.

I'll lean on Gateway until I/we get the needed parts as promised.

Sorry for the length of this. I hope it has been helpful or insightful or
something..

Later.

Russ . . .


"Jim" <donr503@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RJednYMs5__12X3fRVn-uA@midco.net...

> You got my curiosity so I tried SFC on a 2 year old Gateway that I had
just
> reload a week ago, the only thing I have on the system are phone tools,
> roxio ez cd creator ver. 5., norton internet securtity and all the windows
> updates including service pack 2.
>
> SFC also prompted me to insert the windows cd, I have the Gateway OS cd
for
> xp. Every time it found a file that need to be replaced I had to click on
> "retry" then SFC continued.
> Immediately after it should have replaced all the corrupt dll files I ran
> SFC again and it still prompted me for the windows cd. I would think all
> the corrupt files had been fixed.
>
> Now I'm wonder what's going on so I tried the same thing on another system
> running xp pro from microsoft, same thing happen, prompted me for the
> windows cd, had to click on "retry" every time it found a file. Ran it
again
> after it finished and it kept find more files. It doesn't give you the
file
> name so I don't know if they are the same files or not.
>
> Well that's my experience, I guess at this point I don't have much faith
in
> xp's SFC.
>
>
> "Russ Edwards" <rustysob@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:wVyDe.8439$Wt3.2323@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> > Bear with me, this is lengthy.
> >
> > I have discovered a problem with the Gateway install of XP MCE in my
832GM
> > that thus far Gateway is unwilling to resolve.
> >
<<< Big Snip >>>
July 22, 2005 5:25:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Right click on the My Computer icon and select "Manage" from the popup
menu. In the tree displayed click on the + next to Event Viewer. Click on
System. In the right pane of the display look for entries under the
"Source" column titled "Windows File Protection". Double click the entry
and the dialog box will list the path and file in question. There will be
one of these entries for every bad file detected.


"Russ Edwards" <rustysob@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:wVyDe.8439$Wt3.2323@bignews3.bellsouth.net:

> Bear with me, this is lengthy.
>
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 6:14:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Great tests, Ed!

Yeah, I suppose that the system level files that SFC checks are not
appreciably different from one flavor of a given OS version to another.

Consequently the XP install disks from Home, Pro, or MCE for the most part
oughtta be interchangeable from SFC's standpoint.

And I do have a legit retail copy of XP Pro SP2 I suppose I could use to
make SFC happy on this new Gateway MCE box.

But as I mentioned in a previous reply, there is some principle involved
here.

Now, I am not one to cut my nose off to spite my face. If this were critical
I would not hesitate to pop in my own XP Pro disk and go on from there.

But I do not like to get cheated. And compared to what Gateway and before
that Gateway 2000 has meant over the last 20 years or so to many of us here,
well, as has been discussed quite a bit, today's Gateway customers have a
right to feel shortchanged.

And whether SFC or any other MS diagnostic is faulty or not (and I am
beginning to believe that SFC is hardly perfect) should not be the issue
with respect to Gateway support and remedies under the Warranty Agreement.

If a diagnostic utility that Gateway itself furnished, however incidentally,
reports something defective, isn't Gateway obligated to fix it? Or at least
take some effective measure to troubleshoot the situation?

You would think, huh?

But for some reason, if it involves sending those coveted XP install CD's to
fix a simple problem, Whoa! Time to sound the alarm and circle the cows!

Good grief, Gateway, chill.

Elsewhere on the farm - Ol' Bill got a bit sloppy with that "Insert Disk"
box.

The installed version of Windows on my new Gateway is "XP Media Center
Edition." But the wording in that box reads, exactly, "Insert your Windows
XP Professional CD2 now."

On one hand, MS goes to great lengths and expense to differentiate XP MCE
from XP Pro and XP Home. But then they forget to update the wording in the
MCE version of SFC.

Sorta reminds me of when all of those Oldsmobiles were found with Chevrolet
engines in them.

As it is, MCE is a superset built on top of Pro. But I guess they left on
the Pro valve covers.

Anyway, you have me tempted to insert my own XP disk and see what happens.
If it fixes things, I can always run the Recovery routine again and get back
my corrupt files! LOL

Lemme sleep on that.

Later.

Russ . . .


"Ed" <fake@fake.com> wrote in message
news:5bn0e1plbruu17hs73nfm0lrrkg9u88pl3@4ax.com...

> I did a little test on my made in America White Box desktop. I ran
> sfc to see and I got a message close to yours "Files that are required
> for Windows to run properly must be copied to the dll cache. Insert
> your Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 CD now". Okay, that's
> fine and dandy but I run XP home, not Professional but what does Bill
> Gates know. the man that once said that 640K should be enough for
> anybody. Anyway, I put my Windows XP Home Service Pack 2 CD in and
> sfc seemed to be pleased.
>
> I then tried the test on my made in Taiwan with the GW name painted on
> it laptop with the same results. Oh yea, my laptop was from the era
> when they actually gave you a restoration and OS CD with a new system
> since you were paying for it in the first place. Of course, you
> always get a copy of the OS with White Boxes. Anyway, sfc on the
> laptop went fine with its supplied OS cd in the slot.
>
> Now the real test, I ran sfc on the Taiwanese laptop with the GW name
> painted on it and put the OS disk from the desktop in the slot when it
> asked for it and it accepted that disk also.. So... I think you can
> get yourself a copy of someone's OS and use it for this purpose. I
> would guess that it would have to be the same XP version as the one
> the Taiwanese installed on your system but it should work. You don't
> need the stupid M$ activation junk since you will not be installing
> the OS, just using the copy for sfc purposes.
>
> Even though my Taiwanese Laptop with the GW name painted on it has an
> OEM OS and the American Made White Box desktop has a retail OS on it,
> both are the same versions and both have been slipstreamed with SP2
> and sfc run on the Taiwanese laptop accepted the OS CD from the
> desktop.
>
> Give it a try and see. All you can loose is the cost of a CD.
>
> Regards,
> Ed
July 22, 2005 2:25:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:25:31 -0500, Me <Me@me.Com> wrote:

>There will be
>one of these entries for every bad file detected.

Great... Everything was there as you said. Now, maybe you would know
something about another thing we were talking about. Remember where
we said that it appeared that sfc was adding files again when running
it a second time right after running it a first time? Well the log
showed that it did. It replaced the same identical files with the
same replacements files two times, one right after the other.

The only thing I can think is that there are perfectly good M$ files
that sfc thinks need to be replaced and it is replacing them with the
same file that it thinks is corrupt or the signature is not right.
This wouldn't surprise me with M$ but that is the only thing I think
of the reason being for M$'s sfc continuing to replace the same files
over and over with each consecutive running of sfc. Maybe that is the
real reason M$ coded sfc to Not display up front, for the user, what
it is actually doing and replacing.

Regards,
Ed
Anonymous
July 22, 2005 7:08:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Thanks! Great advice!

It's all there in black and white.

As Ed suggests, it would have been way more convenient if Microsoft gave a
clue upfront as to what SFC had found, but the specifics as detailed in the
Event Viewer are just a few clicks away and provide a printable record.

In my case, one of the files was a .net framework gacutil.exe, and the rest
were ehome dll's.

Since AFAIK ehome files are unique to XP MCE, it would seem pointless to
feed SFC a non-MCE flavor of an XP installation disk for repair.

This also suggests that the included SFC utility is XP flavor-specific, at
least with XP MCE, and maybe in that XP N that our European friends can
choose. This woulda been confirmed if the wording had read "Insert your
Windows XP MCE CD2 now" but somebody at MS dropped the ball on that one.

This further illustrates why Gateway needs to furnish the appropriate part -
specifically, the XP MCE install disk - so I (and others in the same boat)
can let SFC complete its mission.

Evidence reported here indicates that SFC may not be able to properly clean
up the mess, but I'll never know what I'll have to work with if I can't move
on to the next prescribed step and see what SFC actually does for me.

But Gateway has refused thus far to give me the part that SFC needs.

I am actually beginning to look forward to going to arbitration on this,
S.O.B. that I am. LOL

Later.

Russ . . .

"Me" <Me@me.Com> wrote in message
news:Xns969AEE4E235D4Memecom@216.196.97.136...

> Right click on the My Computer icon and select "Manage" from the popup
> menu. In the tree displayed click on the + next to Event Viewer. Click on
> System. In the right pane of the display look for entries under the
> "Source" column titled "Windows File Protection". Double click the entry
> and the dialog box will list the path and file in question. There will be
> one of these entries for every bad file detected.
July 22, 2005 9:16:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:49 -0400, "Russ Edwards"
<rustysob@bellsouth.dee.oh.tee.net> wrote:

>I am actually beginning to look forward to going to arbitration on this,
>S.O.B. that I am. LOL

Lots of luck because you will have to goto Taiwan to do it because you
must remember, Gateway has nothing to do with computers except to
market and sell some junk boxes made in Taiwan that have their name
painted on the box. Gateway is not a computer company like the one we
use to remember from the mid 90's, it is a marketing company. They
wouldn't know a computer if one jumped up and bit them in their arse
nor would they know how to support one. This being said, Gateway has
nothing to do with you getting or not getting an OS disk, its up to
some third world flunky in Taiwan where the boxes are actually made
and their HD's are software populated.

Friendly reminder..... next time you buy a desktop, buy a local white
box built to your specific specifications from a reputable local
builder. If you are going to get into a laptop, you can't go local
but web based consumer reports show the IBM Thinkpad still seems to be
rated better than any others as far as quality and do have support
from this side of the world from English speaking techs and the box
doesn't need to be shipped to some 3rd world monkey infested island
for repairs as with all the others.

Regards,
Ed
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 1:30:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Well, Gateway still sells the computers under its brand name, no matter who
assembles the computers. So there is some sort of contract of sale between
Gateway and buyer. In that respect, if Gateway is supposed to supply a CD and
they did not, then they did not meet their contractual obligations and need to
be held accountable.

Likewise, whatever the flunky in Taiwan (or China or Korea or Singapore or
Malaysia or Peoria puts inside the carton that ships to a customer is also
controlled by a contract or statement of work between Gateway and contractor.

It is not at all correct to say that Russ needs to go after some flunky in
Taiwan to fix the situation. Russ made a deal with Gateway, so he can simply
(hah!) go after Gateway, directly, via class action lawsuit, and/or with the
help his state's department of consumer affairs or anti-fraud department.
Still, squeezing something out of Gateway will take a lot of time, if not money.
Far better to trot down to the store, buy whatever copy of XP is needed and
chalk it all up to experience. Gateway is not alone in NOT providing software
media, so maybe buying a white box computer from a reputable local source is a
better answer, albeit more expensive at the outset... Ben Myers

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 17:16:15 -0400, Ed <fake@fake.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:08:49 -0400, "Russ Edwards"
><rustysob@bellsouth.dee.oh.tee.net> wrote:
>
>>I am actually beginning to look forward to going to arbitration on this,
>>S.O.B. that I am. LOL
>
>Lots of luck because you will have to goto Taiwan to do it because you
>must remember, Gateway has nothing to do with computers except to
>market and sell some junk boxes made in Taiwan that have their name
>painted on the box. Gateway is not a computer company like the one we
>use to remember from the mid 90's, it is a marketing company. They
>wouldn't know a computer if one jumped up and bit them in their arse
>nor would they know how to support one. This being said, Gateway has
>nothing to do with you getting or not getting an OS disk, its up to
>some third world flunky in Taiwan where the boxes are actually made
>and their HD's are software populated.
>
>Friendly reminder..... next time you buy a desktop, buy a local white
>box built to your specific specifications from a reputable local
>builder. If you are going to get into a laptop, you can't go local
>but web based consumer reports show the IBM Thinkpad still seems to be
>rated better than any others as far as quality and do have support
>from this side of the world from English speaking techs and the box
>doesn't need to be shipped to some 3rd world monkey infested island
>for repairs as with all the others.
>
>Regards,
>Ed
July 23, 2005 1:30:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:30:34 GMT, ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net
(Ben Myers) wrote:

>It is not at all correct to say that Russ needs to go after some flunky in
>Taiwan to fix the situation.

I knew that Ben... It was just a failed attempt at sarcasm toward GW
on my behalf.

>Far better to trot down to the store, buy whatever copy of XP is needed and
>chalk it all up to experience.

Which brings up another thought I had. Doesn't all these computers
that are not shipped with a restoration or OS disk have the ability to
create at least a restoration CD from some command under Start? If
so, would not that made up restoration CD have the files needed by
sfc?

>Gateway is not alone in NOT providing software
>media, so maybe buying a white box computer from a reputable local source is a
>better answer, albeit more expensive at the outset... Ben Myers

I don't think any of the big US based Marketing Firms that call
themselves "Computer Manufacturers" who are actually selling junk
Asian boxes with their names painted on them are supplying a
restoration CD or OS CD any more with their Asian junk boxes. I base
this on the people that I personally know that have had the
misfortunes in buying Asian junk boxes with the GW, HP, Dell, Compaq,
emachine, etc. names painted on the boxes since the turn of the
millennium or last three years for sure. My GW 450 laptop is a little
over 3 years old and came with the blue & red restoration & OS cds but
I know of another that has the same laptop that was purchased only 6
months after I purchased mine and they didn't get any disks. To get a
restoration CD they have to create it themselves from a command in the
Start section and as far as an OS disk.... forget it.....

However, you are right in the direction people should start moving,
ie. "maybe buying a white box computer from a reputable local source
is a better answer, albeit more expensive at the outset." I think we
went over the associated costs before in a thread where it was
suggested that even though you pay a little more up front for a Local
Built White Box, you save a lot in the long run. I know that as far
as my desktop white box is concerned, this has been very true.

Regards,
Ed
Anonymous
July 23, 2005 11:37:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.gateway2000 (More info?)

Hello Ben, Ed -

Good points here and in previous threads. Lemme toss in my 2 cents so maybe
we can all be clear on some stuff.

As to the Players, at least in the case of Gateway and e-Machines, the
entity that the computer buyer has to deal with is: Gateway, Inc.

The terms and condition of the sale, purchase, warranty, and so on between
Gateway, Inc. and its customers are detailed in various agreements, each
specific to the nature of the transaction, which can be found here:

http://gateway.com/about/legal/warranty.shtml

In my case, I bought my Gateway 832GM computer from Circuit City in Naples,
Florida. Consequently the specific Agreement that applies to me is the
"Terms and Conditions for products purchased from an Authorized Retailer"
which can be found here:

http://content.gateway.com/www.gateway.com/about/legal/...

The two parties to that Agreement are me and Gateway, Inc., period.

Circuit City, for example, is not a party to that Agreement. Neither are any
of Gateway's suppliers or sub-contractors.

So it doesn't matter if the entity called Gateway, Inc. is two guys
operating out of an efficiency apartment Smallville with vendors and
suppliers and assemblers all over the world, or a huge self-sufficient
industrial complex with thousands of clean cut folks in the Midwest, Gateway
customers can only look to that entity - Gateway, Inc. - for support.

I think we all can agree on that.

Now, what is today's Gateway, Inc, in reality?

It sure ain't the same as when I first started with them in the early 90's.
I was very active with Team Gateway back then in the old Compuserve
Gateway2000 Forum. I helped them out when there was the big flap over the
10th Anniversary Edition computer which was advertised as including a Matrox
Millenia video card. Well, it actually had an OEM version of that card with
lesser specs than the retail Matrox Millenia. This was before computer
makers made it clear that their OEM versions of components were different by
calling them "SE" versions, or "OEM" versions or something to differentiate
the model names from the real retail versions.

Point is, been there, done that with Gateway, and now they want the t-shirt
back.

Anyway, in those good ol' days Gateway designed, engineered, assembled,
marketed, and supported their products all from South Dakota.

To be clear on that, some of the design and engineering part was done by
independent specialty firms hired by Gateway to develop certain sub-systems
and parts of the system for them, as is typical with all manufacturers.

The parts used for the actually assembly were a mixture of 3 general
categories.

First were standard, full retail equivalent off-the-shelf parts from their
vendors. Hard drives, floppy drives, processors, memory, and so on are
examples.

Next were similar, but OEM versions of the vendor's retail product. These
parts were modified to Gateway's specs, and were usually, but not always,
lesser and cheaper than the vendor's retail equivalent. That crippled
Matrox video card mentioned above is an example.

Finally were the parts that were built by sub-contractors but to Gateway's
design. The computer case is an example.

Gateway would gather all of those parts and components and then Gateway
employees here in the states would assemble, package, and ship the finished
product to the customer.

A good number of all of the parts in all three categories above were
manufactured offshore, even back then.

In all reality, it isn't a whole lot different today. The concept is the
same, just that more of the final assembly part is done offshore.

Gateway still does coordinate the design and engineering of the system as
before, and a good example of how good they are can be found in the new
Gateway BTX case. Probably the best BTX case there is. That case is not an
off-the-shelf case from some offshore contractor. It is probably *built*
for Gateway by some offshore contractor, but to Gateway's original design.

Obviously what drives the product development is marketing, but that ain't
new, either.

One could make the argument that, in the above sense, what Gateway does is
not all that different than what white box builders do.

Maybe white box builders choose better components, but they are limited
totally to off-the-shelf stuff. You'll not see an unique, elegant, custom
BTX case from them like Gateway's, or even Sony's, until Antec or someone
builds one.

Also, it is important to differentiate between the low-end (what we would
call junk) boxes sold by Gateway, and some of their better stuff. I
certainly know what to look for in a computer, and there is nothing I woulda
changed in the Gateway configuration of the 832GM Media Center Edition I
bought. It is the perfect foundation to build the exact system I need for
its intended use. (OK, I woulda wanted the OS install disks included! LOL)

A white box builder woulda been hard pressed to duplicate this dead silent
BTX MCE box, especially for the price.

Ah, but the support you say.

True.

We need to differentiate the support aspect from the hardware aspect.

I am not ready to concede that in all cases (no pun) the white box builder
is gonna put out a better, or more suitable piece of hardware than Gateway
(or whomever.)

(Note that this is not bait to start a discussion as to who builds the
better boxes.)

As to support, I understand that Gateway again provides support from the
States. My recent experiences have been with staff in Utah.

Still, the white box guy down the street has an advantage, and his
reputation will confirm the extent to which he uses it.

Apart from them refusing to provide the installation disks needed to replace
the defective files, I have found Gateway's telephone support to be adequate
for my needs.

Finally, remedies.

To be clear, I can't sue Gateway, Inc. over a warranty issue in a Court of
law, nor can I institute a class action suit, because I waived that right
when I accepted the terms of the Warranty Agreement. Instead I (along with
all other Gateway and e-Machine owners) am limited to bringing any dispute
to binding arbitration administered by the National Arbitration Forum. I
can do that locally here in Miami, or any reasonable location near me or
near Gateway, Inc.

The Miami-Dade County Consumer Services Department, however, is not party to
that Agreement, and as such is not bound by the arbitration clause. They
would have no problem telling Gateway to "Tell it to the Judge!"

Bottom line: I am not sure that today's Gateway computers are all that bad.
Gateway isn't as warm and fuzzy as it once was, but that is not unique these
days. Their cheapie computers are junk, for sure. But everyone's cheapie
boxes are. (To me, if it is not infinitely expandable, configurable, and
modifiable for some years to come it is worthless. I am not wealthy enough
to be able to afford disposable computers - I gotta make mine last. In
fact, I still have my 1994 Gateway 2000 4DX2-66V in limited service (now 133
powered.) I am typing this on my 2000 Gateway Performance 933.)

Gateway support is better than it was for a while, but not as good as it
once was. Again, not unique in today's business environment.

The warranties cover much less than they used to, and require arbitration
for dispute resolution, which is outrageous. I would urge all Gateway and
e-Machine users to read the Warranty Agreement applicable to them. But that
area, too, is just a sign of the times.

Of course, to balance all of this out, today there are the various fora,
such as this newsgroup, where other owners fill the gaps left by Gateway -
often providing a depth of advice that Gateway never could.

It is also worth noting that Gateway itself is somewhat crippled no matter
what it does, because market forces demand that Gateway computers come
loaded with Microsoft's Windows OS. That in itself is a can of worms not to
be opened in this thread.

As to my own problem, yeah, I could run down the street and pick up a retail
copy of the install disks I need. But I am not that desperate and I am not
in the mood to get stiffed by Gateway. It costs me little to hammer out an
e-mail or two to Gateway. And if I do have to bring this to arbitration, no
biggie. I can handle that. And I will prevail.

I will post a copy of my correspondence with Gateway when I get a chance.
If only for grins, because it is pretty funny.

Later.

Russ . . .
!