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will reformatting remove all spyware?

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Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 11, 2005 6:01:05 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com seems to be getting
very slow
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 11, 2005 6:57:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

Yes it will -- along with every other file on your hard drive. That's the
bad news. The good news is that when you reinstall XP, update XP it
(including SP2), and then reinstall your other software and data, your OS
will run like new and all the crudware, at least initially, will be gone.
The bad news is that unless you then correct what caused it to get downloaded
on your machine in the first place, eventually you will be back in the
situation that you are now.

Incidentally, before you decide on major surgery, try downloading and
running the MS antispyware beta (which is free for now) and see if it can
solve most of your problems. Here is a link that may work:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyI...


"will reformatting remove all spyware?" wrote:

> if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com seems to be getting
> very slow
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 11, 2005 9:06:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

Do you use a sledge hammer to kill a housefly ?

--
Dave




"will reformatting remove all spyware?" <will reformatting remove all
spyware?@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:960C3E5A-D94D-4695-A906-3BE095C41402@microsoft.com...
| if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com seems to be getting
| very slow
Related resources
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 11, 2005 11:44:47 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

It is better to learn how to fight spyware now, otherwise you will find
yourself reformatting in the not so distant future.. read on



Spyware/Adware/Scumware has become a major player in compromising
computers.. they introduce viruses, trojans and worms.. they attempt to send
out information about you, and they also slow your computer down..



Some basic steps to removing Spyware/Adware..



First step is to run a one shot virus remover.. I have found that McAfee
Stinger works for people.. download and run it..



http://vil.nai.com/vil/stinger/



You will also need to download Spyware removal software.. Spybot and Adaware
are available at these websites.. both are free.. download and run them..
don't forget to check for updates after you have started them..



http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html



http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/



Spybot has the ability to immunize a system, but there is better for this
function, so download and run Spyware Blaster too.. again, check for
updates..



http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/



At this point, I will mention the new MS Anti Spyware program.. some have
reported good results and for others, it has caused problems.. I would not
suggest loading it until all other problems have been cleared up.. You have
enough to deal with presently..



If you have had your Internet browser hijacked, that is to say, you get
redirected through a search engine NOT of your choosing, you will need
different tools..



HijackThis is a popular and effective tool.. download it from here..



http://www.spychecker.com/download/download_hijackthis....



CWShredder will eliminate CoolWebSearch and variants.. there is a free
download here..



CWShredder.. http://www.intermute.com/spysubtract/cwshredder_downloa...



For other tools in the fight against spyware, visit this website and
bookmark it..



http://www.pchell.com



You must also run a firewall and anti-virus program.. here are some links
for you..



http://www.mcafee.com .. http://www.symantec.com .. http://www.zonealarm.com
... http://www.kerio.com .. http://www.gate.com .. http://www.avast.com ..
http://www.grisoft.com..





Please return to this thread and provide feedback.. it is the only way that
helpers here can determine how effective the advice given has been..



Good luck..


--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/user

http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm





"will reformatting remove all spyware?" <will reformatting remove all
spyware?@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:960C3E5A-D94D-4695-A906-3BE095C41402@microsoft.com...
> if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com seems to be
> getting
> very slow
February 12, 2005 12:55:04 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

It's easy to clear away a cobweb by brushing them away.

Problem is they come back tomorrow...why? Becasue the bloody spider makes
them!

So rather than spend 8 - 12 hours reformatting the hard drive, installing
Windows, applying updates and patches, then installing all those application
and then recovering your personal data from a CD or tape..and then going to
sleep and waking up to personalise your PC and get it back to where you were
before....catch my breath.

Downblaod and install Spybot Search and Destroy. Boot up to safe mode and
then run it to clear out the cobwebs and kill the spiders! It has the
benefit of laying down some traps to catch and prevent new ones coming back!

Get the message?

If not waste your time!

"Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:

> It is better to learn how to fight spyware now, otherwise you will find
> yourself reformatting in the not so distant future.. read on
>
>
>
> Spyware/Adware/Scumware has become a major player in compromising
> computers.. they introduce viruses, trojans and worms.. they attempt to send
> out information about you, and they also slow your computer down..
>
>
>
> Some basic steps to removing Spyware/Adware..
>
>
>
> First step is to run a one shot virus remover.. I have found that McAfee
> Stinger works for people.. download and run it..
>
>
>
> http://vil.nai.com/vil/stinger/
>
>
>
> You will also need to download Spyware removal software.. Spybot and Adaware
> are available at these websites.. both are free.. download and run them..
> don't forget to check for updates after you have started them..
>
>
>
> http://www.safer-networking.org/en/index.html
>
>
>
> http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/
>
>
>
> Spybot has the ability to immunize a system, but there is better for this
> function, so download and run Spyware Blaster too.. again, check for
> updates..
>
>
>
> http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/
>
>
>
> At this point, I will mention the new MS Anti Spyware program.. some have
> reported good results and for others, it has caused problems.. I would not
> suggest loading it until all other problems have been cleared up.. You have
> enough to deal with presently..
>
>
>
> If you have had your Internet browser hijacked, that is to say, you get
> redirected through a search engine NOT of your choosing, you will need
> different tools..
>
>
>
> HijackThis is a popular and effective tool.. download it from here..
>
>
>
> http://www.spychecker.com/download/download_hijackthis....
>
>
>
> CWShredder will eliminate CoolWebSearch and variants.. there is a free
> download here..
>
>
>
> CWShredder.. http://www.intermute.com/spysubtract/cwshredder_downloa...
>
>
>
> For other tools in the fight against spyware, visit this website and
> bookmark it..
>
>
>
> http://www.pchell.com
>
>
>
> You must also run a firewall and anti-virus program.. here are some links
> for you..
>
>
>
> http://www.mcafee.com .. http://www.symantec.com .. http://www.zonealarm.com
> ... http://www.kerio.com .. http://www.gate.com .. http://www.avast.com ..
> http://www.grisoft.com..
>
>
>
>
>
> Please return to this thread and provide feedback.. it is the only way that
> helpers here can determine how effective the advice given has been..
>
>
>
> Good luck..
>
>
> --
> Mike Hall
> MVP - Windows Shell/user
>
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> "will reformatting remove all spyware?" <will reformatting remove all
> spyware?@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:960C3E5A-D94D-4695-A906-3BE095C41402@microsoft.com...
> > if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com seems to be
> > getting
> > very slow
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 12, 2005 12:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

will reformatting remove all spyware? wrote:
> if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com seems to be getting
> very slow


To deal with issues caused by any sort of "adware" and/or
"spyware,"such as Gator, Comet Cursors, Smiley Central, Xupiter,
Bonzai Buddy, or KaZaA, and their remnants, that you've deliberately
(but without understanding the consequences) installed, two products
that are quite effective (at finding and removing this type of
scumware) are Ad-Aware from www.lavasoft.de and SpyBot Search &
Destroy from www.safer-networking.org/. Both have free versions.
It's even possible to use SpyBot Search & Destroy to "immunize" your
system against most future intrusions. I use both and generally
perform manual scans every week or so to clean out cookies, etc.

Additionally, manual removal instructions for the most common
varieties of scumware are available here:

PC Hell Spyware and Adware Removal Help
http://www.pchell.com/support/spyware.shtml

Formatting the hard drive to solve a virus or spyware problem is
rather like using an axe to trim one's fingernails. Sure, it'll
probably get the job done, but it's rather messy...., and almost always
unnecessary.


However, if that's what you still want to do:

Simply boot from the WinXP installation CD. You'll be offered the
opportunity to delete, create, and format partitions as part of the
installation process. (You may need to re-arrange the order of boot
devices in the PC's BIOS to boot from the CD.)

HOW TO Install Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;en-us;316941

http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html

http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/clean_install.htm


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 12, 2005 12:15:23 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

David H. Lipman wrote:
> Do you use a sledge hammer to kill a housefly ?
>


I do. It's a great upper body workout, if a bit hard on the walls and
windows. ;-}


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 13, 2005 7:39:37 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:14:30 -0700, Bruce Chambers

>will reformatting remove all spyware? wrote:
>> if so i will do it as i have sooo much spyware and my com
>> seems to be getting very slow

Yes - but if you don't learn anything and your "com" stays unpatched
and poorly risk-managed, it will be back in no time.

http://cquirke.mvps.org/reinst.htm refers.

> To deal with issues caused by any sort of "adware" and/or
>"spyware,"such as Gator, Comet Cursors, Smiley Central, Xupiter,
>Bonzai Buddy, or KaZaA, and their remnants, that you've deliberately
>(but without understanding the consequences) installed,

I must break in at this point. It's absurd (in 2005) to suggest the
user "deliberately" installed this junk, even though that is supposed
to be the defence of commercial malware vendors.

Initially, there was a sharp difference between traditional malware
(viruses, worms, trojans) and commercial malware. The authors of
commercial malware had to be visible in order to collect the money, so
they were careful to maintain plausible deniability - i.e. claim that
victims "consented" to the installation, etc.

But as time went by, and no-one challenged them legally, they got
bolder. Commercial malware now routinely exploits software code
defects (as well as stupid software design) to install themselves,
often counter-attack clean-up tools, re-instate themselves on the fly
when killed, and persist in Safe Mode.

Commercial malware vendors also write EULAs that forbid users from
using tools to remove their trash, and that reserve the right of the
commercial malware vendor to re-infect the PC at will. They've also
brought legal pressure to bear on clean tools so that the authors of
these tools drop detection for their "legitimate" products.

With that sort of sympathetic legal climate, it's no wonder things are
getting worse. The way these vendors make money is dubious at best
(covering ads and entire web pages with thier own content to steal ad
click revenue, using other techniques to steal revenue from other ad
vendors, adding fake hyperlinks to competitors' sites etc.) and yet
they are well-supported by big venture capital.

IE is *designed* to allow web devs to drop code into IE, and run as
part of IE (BHOs). It is *designed* to let web devs create any UI
they like, including covering up parts of the browser window, or
faking a system dialog box. Since IE4's "Active Desktop" and "View As
Web Page", MS has deliberately blurred the UI of "the Internet" and
the PC itself. All these commercial vendors need do, is simply use
the tools that MS has given them to trick and rob the user.

But commercial malware also makes use of code defects, such as those
within Java, to silently invade systems without any user clicks at
all. The only "fault" the user can be blamed for, is using a popular
but unsafe platform on the Internet, without becoming a SysAdmin
boffin on security, patching, etc.

And yet we have folks still pitching the party line that if you have
"spyware" on your PC, then it must be because you chose to install it.
How else could it have possibly have got there?

>two products that are quite effective (at finding and removing this type of
>scumware) are Ad-Aware from www.lavasoft.de and SpyBot Search &
>Destroy from www.safer-networking.org/. Both have free versions.
>It's even possible to use SpyBot Search & Destroy to "immunize" your
>system against most future intrusions. I use both and generally
>perform manual scans every week or so to clean out cookies, etc.

Yes, they are both very good - I also use Spyware Blaster to immunize
against known attackers (where "known" implies the usual process of
ongoing updates and re-application of newly-enhanced protection).

> Additionally, manual removal instructions for the most common
>varieties of scumware are available here:

>PC Hell Spyware and Adware Removal Help
>http://www.pchell.com/support/spyware.shtml

> Formatting the hard drive to solve a virus or spyware problem is
>rather like using an axe to trim one's fingernails. Sure, it'll
>probably get the job done, but it's rather messy...., and almost always
>unnecessary.

When you "just" wipe and start over, you invariably fall back to the
form of software that was originally considered "fit to ship" - i.e.
without subsequent patches (repairs) needed to block evolving attacks.

So you may be worse off afterwards, i.e. more likely to be infected.


>-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
>----------------------- ------ ---- --- -- - - - -
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 13, 2005 12:16:05 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>
>
> I must break in at this point. It's absurd (in 2005) to suggest the
> user "deliberately" installed this junk, even though that is supposed
> to be the defence of commercial malware vendors.
>


Why is it "absurd" to report an informed opinion based upon years of
experience supporting computers in corporate, government, and home
environments? Nor do I defend any malware vendors, commercial or
otherwise. I simply point out that computer users need to pay attention
and take responsibility for their own actions.


>
> And yet we have folks still pitching the party line that if you have
> "spyware" on your PC, then it must be because you chose to install it.
> How else could it have possibly have got there?
>


It's no party line. It's a simple statement of observation. I've
heard of claims of "drive-by" installations, but have never actually
seen one, nor have I ever met anyone who had actually seen one. A
computer would have to be left in an awfully "unsecured" state for such
an installation to occur. In *every* malware that case I've seen, the
installation of spyware relied upon the co-operation of the computer user.

If someone gets malware on their computer, be it a virus, Trojan, worm,
adware, or spyware, it's because the computer user failed to take the
proper security measures.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 13, 2005 12:43:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

"Bruce Chambers" wrote:

> If someone gets malware on their computer, be it a virus, Trojan, worm,
> adware, or spyware, it's because the computer user failed to take the
> proper security measures.

In my experience, this is true -- 99 percent of the time. There was one
time when I somehow got a virus upon visiting the ESPN website, of all
things. I didn't click on anything, I simply navigated to the sight and,
while it was loading, Norton told me that it had just blocked a virus trying
to download onto my machine. It happened years ago, and I don't rule out the
possibility that it was a false positive.

In every other case of adware or spyware I have ever heard of, it resulted
from a user downloading and installing files (including software programs
such as Kazaa as well as Active-X controls), clicking on a popup add, or
opening an e-mail attachment. These are all user-initiated, and therefore
user-preventable.

Ken
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 13, 2005 5:23:58 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 04:39:37 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
>
> When you "just" wipe and start over, you invariably fall back to the
> form of software that was originally considered "fit to ship" - i.e.
> without subsequent patches (repairs) needed to block evolving attacks.

There are a couple things to consider in the wipe/reinstall method:

1) If you are not on a protected network when you wipe/reinstall you are
likely to get compromised before you finish the Windows installation, even
before you try and get the patches - A protected network is necessary, or
installation without connection to the network and then the installation
of a personal firewall before connecting to the network to get patches.

2) Routers with NAT for DSL/Cable users are cheap and provide a great
first barrier to compromise, they do nothing about malware, but they do
get you online without being compromised while the computer just sits
there.

3) Routers with NAT almost always provide a logging method that permits
you to see in/out bound traffic with detail - this is a great tool for
determining if you have a compromised machine on your network.

4) People need to learn to run as User level (limited) account types
instead of Administrator level account types - this one thing will benefit
most users more than anything else (except the router).

5) Many AV programs now detect malware and can remove it - Use a quality
AV product. Make sure that the AV product can scan in/out bound email with
the email program you use.

6) Use an alternative browser - or use Microsofts directions to put IE in
high security mode. HS mode for IE breaks most web sites, but it will keep
you from getting compromised while using IE on questionable sites.
Actually using an alternative browser like FireFox is a better choice,
while it's not exploit free, it is MUCH less susceptible to the typical
compromise methods the user will run into.

There are a bunch of other things, but nothing is going to stop spyware
being installed and running if the users want to run programs that provide
spyware as part of their packages - P2P programs are notorious for spyware
being included, and there is little reason to use P2P apps, but people
still do.

One last thing - while wipe/reinstall has been likened to using a sledge
hammer to kill a fly, it's the only method a typical user has that can
ensure that their system is clean.



--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 14, 2005 3:23:08 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:23:58 GMT, Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 04:39:37 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>> When you "just" wipe and start over, you invariably fall back to the
>> form of software that was originally considered "fit to ship" - i.e.
>> without subsequent patches (repairs) needed to block evolving attacks.

>There are a couple things to consider in the wipe/reinstall method:

<much *excellent* advice snipped>

>One last thing - while wipe/reinstall has been likened to using a sledge
>hammer to kill a fly, it's the only method a typical user has that can
>ensure that their system is clean.

Untrue. The typical user has NO method that can ensure their system
is clean, for time values longer than days to weeks.

That's how badly out of control things have become.

So users have to become untypical; either by building their own
skills, or getting someone to set up their systems properly.


>-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
>----------------------- ------ ---- --- -- - - - -
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 14, 2005 3:23:09 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:23:08 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:23:58 GMT, Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:
>>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 04:39:37 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
>
>>> When you "just" wipe and start over, you invariably fall back to the
>>> form of software that was originally considered "fit to ship" - i.e.
>>> without subsequent patches (repairs) needed to block evolving attacks.
>
>>There are a couple things to consider in the wipe/reinstall method:
>
> <much *excellent* advice snipped>
>
>>One last thing - while wipe/reinstall has been likened to using a sledge
>>hammer to kill a fly, it's the only method a typical user has that can
>>ensure that their system is clean.
>
> Untrue. The typical user has NO method that can ensure their system
> is clean, for time values longer than days to weeks.
>
> That's how badly out of control things have become.
>
> So users have to become untypical; either by building their own
> skills, or getting someone to set up their systems properly.

I disagree, the typical user DOES HAVE a method that they can use, in
fact, there is even a published MS document on how to get your computer
online and patched without it being compromised....

Things are only bad for the Ignorant and those unwilling to learn, after a
persons first experience with being compromised if they don't take
precautions and preventative measures they falling to that Unwilling class
and deserve what they get.

Users don't have to become "UnTypical", people like us have to not accept
that your average home user is just plain ignorant and/or doesn't care. I
choose to NOT accept that users are like that, I choose to inform them.
Kind of like people calling NAT devices firewalls - it's not correct and I
make that point each time I see it.

Users that purchase and expensive device and don't do anything to learn
about it are just part of the sheep that you can't protect from the Wolf.
There are simple ways to protect people home computers, such as NAT at the
Cable/DSL ISP MODEM (since almost every one of their modems has NAT
ability).....

Wiping the drive is the only way to ensure that a compromised system is no
longer compromised - that has no measure on keeping it uncompromised.


--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 14, 2005 3:44:58 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 09:16:05 -0700, Bruce Chambers
>cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>> It's absurd (in 2005) to suggest the user "deliberately" installed
>> this junk, even though that is supposed to be the defence of
>> commercial malware vendors.

>Why is it "absurd" to report an informed opinion based upon years of
>experience supporting computers?

Because things have changed and are changing *within* those years, and
because it is untrue that all malware infections proceed through a
front door that the user has to hold open.

That's even allowing for the use of "malware" as a term limited to
commercial malware. Both stupid and ignorant users (and yes, there's
a difference) are more likely to be infected (or rather, are likely to
be more heavily infected) than careful users, and then there will be
some users who manage not to get infected at all.

>Nor do I defend any malware vendors, commercial or otherwise.
>I simply point out that computer users need to pay attention
>and take responsibility for their own actions.

If that was all you were doing, I would not have pounced on you, but
it wasn't. You were implying that every malware infection is the
result of a user choosing to install the malware, and that's untrue.

>I've heard of claims of "drive-by" installations, but have never actually
>seen one, nor have I ever met anyone who had actually seen one.

That's almost proof of being out of the field, or in a very particular
subset of the field at large. I see that sort of thing all the time,
both in my own clients, and when reading up malware descs.

>A computer would have to be left in an awfully "unsecured" state for
>such an installation to occur.

You mean, exactly as considered "fit to ship" by MS and OEMs?

>In *every* malware that case I've seen, the installation of spyware
>relied upon the co-operation of the computer user.

I've certainly seen malware on both sides of that assertion - i.e.
pure clickless attacks, fake system dialog boxes, less overt false
pretences, to an outright "click here to install adware".

>If someone gets malware on their computer, be it a virus, Trojan, worm,
>adware, or spyware, it's because the computer user failed to take the
>proper security measures.

We are associated with a vendor who ships products that were designed
to facilitate stealth installs via web sites, email and even Office
documents. In addition, these products so often have not-by-design
defects that facilitate attack, that limiting repairs to a
once-a-month basis is seen as *reducing* the patch load.

We are the last people who should be pointing fingers at users, for
the simple reason that what we patch today, may already have been
exploited for weeks already.

Yes, users have to be smart; smarter than they should have to be,
because of ongoing product defects and a legacy of designing software
for the benefit of potential attackers. But user smarts are not
enough, unless you forego many of the possible uses of the Internet.

Many of us do forego such uses, and this cuts down our risk exposure.
I'll leave it to you consider the uncomfortable real-world parallels.


>-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
>----------------------- ------ ---- --- -- - - - -
Anonymous
a b 8 Security
February 14, 2005 10:58:56 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.security_admin (More info?)

cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>
>
>>Why is it "absurd" to report an informed opinion based upon years of
>>experience supporting computers?
>
>
> Because things have changed and are changing *within* those years, and
> because it is untrue that all malware infections proceed through a
> front door that the user has to hold open.
>


I've yet to encounter any malware that does *not* use a crudely hidden
front door, nor have I ever met anyone who has. (Of course, that
doesn't mean such can't exist, but must be awfully rare.)


> That's even allowing for the use of "malware" as a term limited to
> commercial malware. Both stupid and ignorant users (and yes, there's
> a difference) ....


Yes, I know.


> .... are more likely to be infected (or rather, are likely to
> be more heavily infected) than careful users, and then there will be
> some users who manage not to get infected at all.
>
>


I think that supports my contentions quite well, thank you.



>
>
> If that was all you were doing, I would not have pounced on you, but
> it wasn't. You were implying that every malware infection is the
> result of a user choosing to install the malware, and that's untrue.
>
>


Not in my experience.






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