anyone wants to help me creating a yahoo group about fight..

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anyone wants to help me creating a yahoo group about fighting steam?

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:50:17 +0000, difool
<john.difool@mail.telepac.pt> wrote:

>anyone wants to help me creating a yahoo group about fighting steam?

No, but if you ever have problems getting out of a paper bag, give me
a holler.

Sorry, little humor to spice up the day.

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"Iain Dingsdale" wrote

> why does steam bother so many people?

About 50.000 users has banned due to illegal software activities eg cracking
HL2, CDKey fraud, credit card fraud etc

Obvious some of these users is kind of bothered by this - LOL
They'll just have to learn one way or the other

Ohh obvious some of 'em is just bypassers, but that's not an excuse either

- Peter

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:55 GMT, "Iain Dingsdale"
<iaindingsdale@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>why does steam bother so many people? I bought HL2 the other day, installed
>it which took no longer than any other game, it updated itself which took
>about 2 minutes and it was ready to play, no problems, about 10 minutes
>spent installing and setting it up. Turned off starting with windows and it
>all works fine

"Why do drugs bother so many people? I just tried them, they made me
feel good, so what's the problem?"

Think out of the box. I've listed my personal reasons for not liking
Steam in other threads, and they have nothing to do with being able to
run Half-life 2 now.

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"riku" <riku@invalid.none.com> wrote in message
news:i7k7u0pg7u99noe0hqfd61fkbm2o5p6ntv@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:47:32 GMT, "Iain Dingsdale"
> <iaindingsdale@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>"Peter Lykkegaard" <polonline@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:34hlr8F4ao8fuU1@individual.net...
>>> "Iain Dingsdale" wrote
>>>
>>>> why does steam bother so many people?
>>>
>>> About 50.000 users has banned due to illegal software activities eg
>>> cracking HL2, CDKey fraud, credit card fraud etc
>>>
>>> Obvious some of these users is kind of bothered by this - LOL
>>> They'll just have to learn one way or the other
>>>
>>> Ohh obvious some of 'em is just bypassers, but that's not an excuse
>>> either
>>
>>So they are banning people for breaking the law, and people are whinging
>>about it?
>
> No. Once again, few valid reasons for not liking Steam. I should make
> a FAQ about this to the ones who have not paid attention:
>
> 1. Steam is restricting your ownership of the game. You can't easily
> (or depending on your situation, at all) sell, lend or give away your
> copy Half-life 2 like you can with any other PC or console games you
> may have, at least if you have any other Steam games on your account.
> This is basically because Steam does not offer any way to transfer
> individual games between Steam accounts, nor a free way to unregister
> a CD key of the CD/DVD version.
>
> This point would not matter that much if Steam games cost less than
> other PC games to compensate for the ownership restrictions, but they
> don't. In fact HL2 Steam version costs more than other similar PC
> games, even newer ones.

OK thats a bit annoying, you cant sell your game..

>
>
> 2. Steam requires online validation even if you intent to play only
> the single-player game. This may cause problems for you in the future
> with your Steam game collection, if you'd like to do some retro-gaming
> with your legal copy of Half-life 2 or other Steam game and install
> it, but Steam network didn't exist anymore for some reason. Unlike
> other PC games you have, Steam games are not standalone games. They
> depend on the existence of the Steam system and Valve company.


Cant see them going anywhere any time soon, can you? It clearly states on
the box an internet connection is required also, and you can select to use
offline mode

>
> Some have said this is not a problem because surely there would be
> cracks for all Steam games in such a situation, but how can they
> promise something like that? Can you find cracks for any old PC games?
> No. Cracks are usually only available for new games, and the most
> well-known games. Try finding noCD cracks to e.g. The Dark Eye.
>
> Plus, cracks are illegal according to DMCA and Euro-DMCA, and may have
> viruses or trojans in them.

As i said, cross that bridge when/if you come to it. I imagine if something
does happen to steam they will release a patch

>
>
> 3. Unlike with other PC games, Steam does not let you choose which
> update to use in case the newest game update does not work fine on
> your system. For example, with Far Cry I chose to use the earlier
> update (1.1) instead of the newest one (1.3) with its glitches. Same
> happened with e.g. Deus Ex, one of the older updates worked better
> than the newest update.
>
> Steam games don't offer this choice, you either must leave your Steam
> game completely unpatched, or use only the very newest update.

Jesus talk about picky, have you actually had any problems with any of the
updates?

>
>
> There are a few, I'm sure there are more drawbacks in the Steam
> system.
>

yes there are drawbacks but who cares, really?? Its incredibly sad, youve
got a decent game that you like and that works, just play it for gods sake
and get on with your life

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:44:23 GMT, "Iain Dingsdale"
<iaindingsdale@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>OK thats a bit annoying, you cant sell your game..

Or lend it to your friend, or give it to your friend... Extra
restrictions to the ownership of the game, something that other PC
games nor console games don't have. I can give or sell my copy of PS2
Burnout 3 to a friend of mine now that I don't play the game anymore.
No such option with Steam games, at least without lots of pre-planning
and extra hassle.

>> 2. Steam requires online validation even if you intent to play only
>> the single-player game. This may cause problems for you in the future
>> with your Steam game collection, if you'd like to do some retro-gaming
>> with your legal copy of Half-life 2 or other Steam game and install
>> it, but Steam network didn't exist anymore for some reason. Unlike
>> other PC games you have, Steam games are not standalone games. They
>> depend on the existence of the Steam system and Valve company.
>
>
>Cant see them going anywhere any time soon, can you? It clearly states on
>the box an internet connection is required also, and you can select to use
>offline mode

Define "any time soon". What makes you so certain Valve will exist
forever? It is a mere two-hit wonder, a small development company that
could easily perish. We are not talking about Microsoft or Electronic
Arts here.

Once successful PC game companies which have just kinda perished,
something that might have seemed impossible back then:

- Microprose
- Sierra
- Dynamix
- Acclaim
- (Interplay/Black Isle (are they still around??? At least they were
in severe trouble some time ago.))
- Looking Glass Studios
- Westwood Studios

And many more. What makes you so certain Valve can't disappear just
like these companies which once made blockbuster games? PC gaming
business is very volatile.

>> Some have said this is not a problem because surely there would be
>> cracks for all Steam games in such a situation, but how can they
>> promise something like that? Can you find cracks for any old PC games?
>> No. Cracks are usually only available for new games, and the most
>> well-known games. Try finding noCD cracks to e.g. The Dark Eye.
>>
>> Plus, cracks are illegal according to DMCA and Euro-DMCA, and may have
>> viruses or trojans in them.
>
>As i said, cross that bridge when/if you come to it. I imagine if something
>does happen to steam they will release a patch

You may imagine whatever you want. I have no idea what makes you
believe that they will certainly do it. They are not into charity
work, they are a company which cares only for maximum profit. Charity
work will not help with that target. And either way they may not have
that option either, if the original development team has already
scattered to other companies and jobs.

With other PC games or console games, there's no question about this.
I don't have to give any thought to whether the company will continue
supporting all their games in case the company perishes. I can still
install and play the said games freely because they don't require
online validation.

>> 3. Unlike with other PC games, Steam does not let you choose which
>> update to use in case the newest game update does not work fine on
>> your system. For example, with Far Cry I chose to use the earlier
>> update (1.1) instead of the newest one (1.3) with its glitches. Same
>> happened with e.g. Deus Ex, one of the older updates worked better
>> than the newest update.
>>
>> Steam games don't offer this choice, you either must leave your Steam
>> game completely unpatched, or use only the very newest update.
>
>Jesus talk about picky, have you actually had any problems with any of the
>updates?

Can't you read? I gave you two examples. I used an older update with
Far Cry because I wasn't interested in seeing the graphical glitches
that the newest update introduced, and some older update to Deus Ex
made the game more playable than the latest update, which again
introduced some new bugs. Likewise, some people reported having more
problems with some of the Half-life 2 updates they got, more stutter
etc.

It is not about being picky, it is about having choices of selecting
the update which works the best on your particular system.

>> There are a few, I'm sure there are more drawbacks in the Steam
>> system.
>>
>
>yes there are drawbacks but who cares, really?? Its incredibly sad, youve

Now you are just being arrogant. Obviously I care, since I wrote them?
Are you so narrow-minded that because you don't care about certain
flaws, no one else should either?

It is interesting to see though that you were unable to come up with
any good counter-arguments to any of those points.

>got a decent game that you like and that works, just play it for gods sake
>and get on with your life

Once again, PAY ATTENTION!!! The discussion was not only about
Half-life 2. It was about the Steam system on the whole.

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:20:54 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
<polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"riku" wrote
>
>> "Why do drugs bother so many people? I just tried them, they made me
>> feel good, so what's the problem?"
>>
>That's big load of BS
>And no argument at all
>
>You don't need $2-300 a day in order to play HL2, guess where those money
>comes from and besides playing HL2 doesn't kill you slowly

Wow, you were able to think "out of the box" in the drugs argument?
Good for you! This was exactly what I was looking for!

Now, extend that thinking to other things as well, like Steam. Steam
is not only about playing Half-life 2. It is about whether you approve
such restrictive distribution and validation systems for your future
games.

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"riku" wrote

> Now, extend that thinking to other things as well, like Steam. Steam
> is not only about playing Half-life 2. It is about whether you approve
> such restrictive distribution and validation systems for your future
> games.

Send your regards to the crackers of the past decade

FFS it's just a silly game
Don't buy the darn thing if you don't like the idea of Steam

Music:
We have been moving from the old LP's through CD on possible DVD's in the
future and even new and different media we don't anything of yet

Video:
Rember betamax?
Can you get a betamax machine today?
VHS is fading away
Today it's DVD
How many does a DVD last?

Television is converting to digital and you can drop your one in the bin as
useless

My old games on 5 1/4 floppies- 3,5 floppies? - more or less useless

These arguements is just about the same stupid arguments as the ongoing
linux versus windows war

Take the PS to PS2 transition
PS Accessories is not compatible with PS2 allthough promised from Sony

Technology evovles for the better and the worse
Live with it or die with in frustration

- Peter

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difool wrote:

> anyone wants to help me creating a yahoo group about fighting steam?
>
> --
> post made in a steam-free computer
> i said "NO" to valve and steam
>
> please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
> http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html

Just don't buy anything that needs Steam, ever. That's the only thing
that will have any effect if enough people do it.

--
|
| The New World Order ... Keep You Simple, Stupid.
|

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In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg Peter Lykkegaard <polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Peter Meilinger" wrote

>>>You have to take this lend thing out of your FAQ
>>>It's illegal to lend HL2

>> Seriously? Wow. That's an idiotic rule. It's in the User
>> Agreement that no one ever reads, I take it? How's it
>> worded, exactly? I can certainly see it being illegal
>> to loan any software to someone

>I read it as lending out for money
>This might be named otherwise in english - sorry :-)

Okay, I see what you mean. In English you'd generally
say rent instead of lend. Renting something always
costs money, but lending is generally free, though
I can conceive of situations where lend would be
an appropriate word along with rent.

In any case, yes, buying a copy of a game and charging
other people to play it is almost certainly illegal,
at least without permission from the manufacturer.

Pete

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:29:52 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
<polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Peter Meilinger" wrote
>
>>>You have to take this lend thing out of your FAQ
>>>It's illegal to lend HL2
>>
>> Seriously? Wow. That's an idiotic rule. It's in the User
>> Agreement that no one ever reads, I take it? How's it
>> worded, exactly? I can certainly see it being illegal
>> to loan any software to someone
>
>I read it as lending out for money
>This might be named otherwise in english - sorry :-)
>
>- Peter
>


THat would be hiring the game out, which again is not illegal AFAIK.
Unless of course, game companies put out versions specific for hiring
like movie studios do with DVD's etc and there exists legislation
barring the hiring of normal store bought games this shouldn't be
illegal.

Lending to friends once you are done, for no profit certainly and
possibly for profit, is not illegal in SOuth Africa and I am certain
the same applies to the US and UK. The rest of the world may be
different, but I doubt it.

Lynley

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:47:19 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
<polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Lynley James" wrote
>
>> THat would be hiring the game out, which again is not illegal AFAIK.
>
>It is for games released on Steam
>Read the EULA
>And it was even for HL1
>
>Valve has initiated a Cyber Cafe Program for cases like this
>
>- Peter
>

The EULA isn't regarded as legally binding in most countries. A EULA
isn't even law if it considered binding, it is merely a contract. The
only remedy for Valve in that case is to sue based on the contract and
recover damages i.e. cash. You cannot in that circumstance be
sentenced to jail time.

How does Valve and other publishers handle video stores that rent
games? One of the biggest chains in the US, Blockbuster, rents at
least console games?

Lynley

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:45:36 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
<polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Lynley James" wrote
>
>> The EULA isn't regarded as legally binding in most countries. A EULA
>> isn't even law if it considered binding, it is merely a contract. The
>> only remedy for Valve in that case is to sue based on the contract and
>> recover damages i.e. cash. You cannot in that circumstance be
>> sentenced to jail time.
>
>Who's talking about Jail?
>Civil lawsiut or removal of steamaccount is sufficient

Like I said violating the EULA isn't illegal, if it is considered a
binding contract in any country then you are in breach of contract and
the only remedy is a civil suit. From your phrasing it sounded as if
you believed that violating the EULA was a criminal offense.


Lynley

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>
> Steam games don't offer this choice, you either must leave your Steam
> game completely unpatched, or use only the very newest update.
>
>
>

No, no, no. You don't have the choice to leave it unpatched! I played
through the game in December, and hadn't played it again for about 3 weeks.
Wanted to show off the awesome graphics to a friend, but was surprised to
see my "offline" info had expired! So it involved a 30 minute download
(yes, I'm still on dialup) and a re-boot. Not happy that I have to jump
through goddamn hoops to show off the game I paid $58 for on the day of
release!

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Toe Jam wrote:
> difool wrote:
>
>>anyone wants to help me creating a yahoo group about fighting steam?
>
>
>
> I like Steam. Create a yahoo group about that instead...

Where's Earl? Is he back on the home planet dancing to the phat beats?

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difool wrote:

> anyone wants to help me creating a yahoo group about fighting steam?

You need to get laid.

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"Iain Dingsdale" <iaindingsdale@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:

> Cant see them going anywhere any time soon, can you?

Yes. Why are they somehow immune from going under? There were
probably people who thought Black-Isle and Interplay could never go
away anytime soon. Spend some time trying to find a patch for a game
purchased in the bargain bin and you'll notice how transitory the
gaming industry is.

--
Darin Johnson
Support your right to own gnus.

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"Peter Lykkegaard" <polonline@hotmail.com> writes:

> Technology evovles for the better and the worse
> Live with it or die with in frustration

But you don't have to throw away old technology. VHS may be
obsolete to some people, but many still keep their players around,
especially if they have VHS tapes they want to watch in the future.
The same will be true for DVDs. All those $30 DVDs won't be thrown
away on the same day that some tech magazine declares DVDs to be
only for old people. If worse comes to worse, then the contents
can be transferred to new media.

If I pay $50 for HL2, I want to play it more than once. Your argument
makes sense if it sold for $10 and came on quickly degradeable media.
But instead it sells for a lot of money and comes on long lasting
durable media.

There are even some people out there who read books. Talk about your
obsolete technologies! OMGLOL!!

--
Darin Johnson
"You used to be big."
"I am big. It's the pictures that got small."

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"Lynley James" <lynley.james@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8n48u0t15dkpkmpjo4gjns52jmtla5338q@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:47:19 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
<snip>
>
> How does Valve and other publishers handle video stores that rent
> games? One of the biggest chains in the US, Blockbuster, rents at
> least console games?
>
> Lynley

Try and find a company in the US renting "computer" software. If it were
legal, I believe that you'd see a ton of software in BlockBuster Video
stores. Cause I believe there would be a huge market for it.

I do recall back in '87 going down to a local software store that use to
rent/sale computer software. I rented a lot of games back then before Demo
disks came about. And a few years ago, I believe that BlockBuster (or one
of the chain video stores) attempted to rent computer software. In both
cases, I believe they were asked to stop or risk going to court.

Others can correct me, but I believe that Blockbuster can rent console games
because most people can't take it home and easily copy it like they could
with computer software.

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On 11 Jan 2005 15:51:33 GMT, Peter Meilinger <mellnger@bu.edu> wrote:

>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg Peter Lykkegaard <polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>"Peter Meilinger" wrote
>>
>>I read it as lending out for money
>>This might be named otherwise in english - sorry :-)
>
>Okay, I see what you mean. In English you'd generally
>say rent instead of lend. Renting something always
>costs money, but lending is generally free, though
>I can conceive of situations where lend would be
>an appropriate word along with rent.
>
>In any case, yes, buying a copy of a game and charging
>other people to play it is almost certainly illegal,
>at least without permission from the manufacturer.

Just for the record, when I wrote "lend the game to a friend", that is
exactly what I meant. ;-) No money involved. That's what friends do
many times, lend movies, games etc. to each others. Hardly illegal.

Also for nitpickers, I wasn't referring to casual piracy either.

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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:28:24 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
<polonline@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Now, extend that thinking to other things as well, like Steam. Steam
>> is not only about playing Half-life 2. It is about whether you approve
>> such restrictive distribution and validation systems for your future
>> games.
>
>FFS it's just a silly game
>Don't buy the darn thing if you don't like the idea of Steam

And I thought you were able to think out of the box? Why were you able
to do that in the drug example, but with regards to Steam games, your
thinking went back to the caveman level?

>Music:
>We have been moving from the old LP's through CD on possible DVD's in the
>future and even new and different media we don't anything of yet

None of these new formats introduced restrictions to the ownership and
usage of the music, so how is this relevant to Steam? You could sell,
lend or give away music CDs just like you could your old LPs, right?
And you can play the music in your CDs even if the band playing the
music or the company which published the music has disappeared
already, don't you?

>Video:
>Rember betamax?
>Can you get a betamax machine today?
>VHS is fading away
>Today it's DVD

How is this relevant at all to the Steam discussion? Caveman mode
kicking in again? What ownership restrictions did DVD introduce that
weren't there already with VHS tapes? At least it offered superior
video and sound quality, which is a definite plus to the end user.

>Television is converting to digital and you can drop your one in the bin as
>useless
>
>My old games on 5 1/4 floppies- 3,5 floppies? - more or less useless

If I wanted, I could still install and play original Doom 1-2 from the
floppies.

>These arguements is just about the same stupid arguments as the ongoing
>linux versus windows war

Or then you just didn't understand the discussion at all. Your
arguments above are completely irrelevant to this Steam discussion.

>Take the PS to PS2 transition
>PS Accessories is not compatible with PS2 allthough promised from Sony

Again, irrelevant to Steam discussion. Did PS2 introduce game
ownership and usage restrictions compared to PSX? No.

>Technology evovles for the better and the worse
>Live with it or die with in frustration

It seems you didn't comprehend at all what I was saying. I don't have
any issues with new technology UNLESS they impose new unneeded
restrictions which are there just to increase publisher profits. I
welcomed DVDs due to the superior video and sound quality, smaller
size and durability over VHS movie tapes.

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"riku" wrote
> It seems you didn't comprehend at all what I was saying.

Maybe not

> I don't have any issues with new technology UNLESS they
> impose new unneeded restrictions which are there just to
> increase publisher profits.

The transition from VHS to DVD and from LP to CD didn't increase publisher
profits or industrial profits?

> I welcomed DVDs due to the superior video and sound quality,
> smaller size and durability over VHS movie tapes.
>
Well right
I welcome Steam for much of the same reasons
It has it's problems and plenty
But imho the concept is nice

Granted the online activation is a bummer, but that's the only problem as I
see it

Yesterday I messed around with some custom thing on one of the games and got
everything messed for good
Instead of tediuos error searching and correcting like in the old days
(forgot to backup) I just deleted the games folder and Steam recreated the
content from the GCF files

Instead of messing around with install files/patches etc on more PC's at
home I can just install the steam client and login
The rest is automatically taken care of

Granted you *need* broadband in order to get all the advantages and if
you're on dialup you might have an issue

Personally I see most of the antisteam movement as a kind of "machine
stormers"
Like when the first automobile, the first steamengine, the first aeroplane
came around

Like the examples with VHS to DVD
I need to buy new equipment to get the advantage and use the new technology

Like games you need to get new hardware in order to play the latest games
Isn't that partly done to increase publisher or industrial profits?

I have my old 8088 XT box with dos 6.2 and wordperfect 5.1
It's superior compared to a rig of today with latest XP/MSWord package
Gives you something to think about

I have played games 15 years ago which is far superior with respect to
gameplay than the ones you get today
Every new release isn't that done in order to gain and increase profit?
The gaming industry is the fastest growing business today

- Peter

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:13:45 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com>
wrote:

>
>"Lynley James" <lynley.james@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8n48u0t15dkpkmpjo4gjns52jmtla5338q@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:47:19 +0100, "Peter Lykkegaard"
><snip>
>>
>> How does Valve and other publishers handle video stores that rent
>> games? One of the biggest chains in the US, Blockbuster, rents at
>> least console games?
>>
>> Lynley
>
>Try and find a company in the US renting "computer" software. If it were
>legal, I believe that you'd see a ton of software in BlockBuster Video
>stores. Cause I believe there would be a huge market for it.
>
>I do recall back in '87 going down to a local software store that use to
>rent/sale computer software. I rented a lot of games back then before Demo
>disks came about. And a few years ago, I believe that BlockBuster (or one
>of the chain video stores) attempted to rent computer software. In both
>cases, I believe they were asked to stop or risk going to court.
>
>Others can correct me, but I believe that Blockbuster can rent console games
>because most people can't take it home and easily copy it like they could
>with computer software.
>

THanks for the correction. I alwyas figured that places that rented
console titles would also do PC games.

Lynley

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:16:36 -0000, "Kevin O'Donovan"
<not.real@nowhere.com> wrote:


>> Try it. Back up your HL2 installation (cache) and Steam, and restore
>> them to another PC without a net connection (with no prior Steam or
>> HL2 installation), and see whether it lets you play HL2 single-player.
>>
>But I don't need to try it, since I've already said that this aspect of
>steam is not a problem for me personally. See my other post in this thread
>for why I don't expect it to be as simple as simply copying the steam
>folder.

Ok then, let me know when you have figured out how this would work.
Until then, I consider it unachievable. Wouldn't this help casual
pirates? I thought you said in the earlier message Steam was meant to
stop them?

Would I have to do that obscure manual backup/restore for each Steam
game separately, or does the same process enable all Steam games as
well?

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

"riku" wrote

> Would I have to do that obscure manual backup/restore for each Steam
> game separately, or does the same process enable all Steam games as
> well?
>
Afaik you can pinpoint which games to backup
The games needs to be enabled and fully updated (offline mode available) in
order to do the backup

- Peter