Wonder Pro vs All-in-Wonder

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

I have a dual boot box with Xandros 3 linux & win XP, SiS 760 onboard video.
I added the ATI Wonder Pro, great video in XP, no luck in linux. So, I
returned it & replaced it with a Hauppage WinTV card. Same, but worse TV
image. So, the plan is to go back to an ATI card. Which brings me to a
couple of questions. The motherboard does have an AGP slot.

1) Would I get even better video image if I add an ATI video card, besides
the Wonder Pro?

2) If so, would I have equal success with an All-in-Wonder, instead of 2
separate cards?

3) If separate cards are better, knowing I don't do much gaming, any
specific ATI video card recommendations?

TIA

Bill K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

Bill Kraski wrote:

> I have a dual boot box with Xandros 3 linux & win XP, SiS 760 onboard
> video.
> I added the ATI Wonder Pro, great video in XP, no luck in linux. So, I
> returned it & replaced it with a Hauppage WinTV card. Same, but worse TV
> image. So, the plan is to go back to an ATI card. Which brings me to a
> couple of questions. The motherboard does have an AGP slot.
>
> 1) Would I get even better video image if I add an ATI video card, besides
> the Wonder Pro?
>
> 2) If so, would I have equal success with an All-in-Wonder, instead of 2
> separate cards?
>
> 3) If separate cards are better, knowing I don't do much gaming, any
> specific ATI video card recommendations?

If you want TV under Linux then pick a board off of the MythTV compatibility
list or one that you know uses the same chip and a compatible tuner.

ATI uses two approaches to their analog TV boards.

One is to use a commodity chip from Phillips or Conexant or Brooktree (now
owned by Conexant)--this is the approach used in all TV Wonders except the
Elite. Those boards have anywhere from so-so to very decent picture
quality, and if you know how to set it up they'll work under just about any
OS and with just about any application that has TV support.

The other is to use a proprietary chip in the ATI Rage Theater family. The
current-production AIWs all use the Rage Theater 200, which has TV quality
similar to the best of the Phillips and Conexant chips. The TV Wonder
Elite uses the new Rage Theater 500, which I haven't seen but which from
the accounts I have read is currently the best of any consumer-priced chip
on the market--there is probably pro equipment that does better but it's in
the thousand plus dollar range. These chips are supported by very few
applications other than those bundled with the ATI boards.

In each case the quality of the TV display is controlled by the chip that is
connected to the TV tuner--an AIW will not make a TV Wonder's output look
better even though the AIW's own TV output looks better than the TV
Wonder's. Support for the Rage Theater chips under Linux is almost
nonexistent--there is some very limited support for the first-generation
chips but none for the later ones.


> TIA
>
> Bill K

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:

> If you want TV under Linux then pick a board off of the MythTV
> compatibility list or one that you know uses the same chip and a
> compatible tuner.

Checked that out. MythTV doesn't like any of the AIW cards.

> ATI uses two approaches to their analog TV boards.
>
> One is to use a commodity chip from Phillips or Conexant or Brooktree (now
> owned by Conexant)--this is the approach used in all TV Wonders except the
> Elite. Those boards have anywhere from so-so to very decent picture
> quality, and if you know how to set it up they'll work under just about
> any OS and with just about any application that has TV support.

I checked gatos.sourceforge.net & again no AIW support. But a little more
research on the Xandros forums indicates the Philips tuner that's in the
Wonder Pro is workable. And further research (via Google) indicates that
the HDTV Wonder uses an equivalent to that same Philips tuner. So, I might
try that one.

> In each case the quality of the TV display is controlled by the chip that
> is connected to the TV tuner--an AIW will not make a TV Wonder's output
> look better even though the AIW's own TV output looks better than the TV
> Wonder's. Support for the Rage Theater chips under Linux is almost
> nonexistent--there is some very limited support for the first-generation
> chips but none for the later ones.

OK. At least for now, I avoid the boards with the Theater x00 chips. I was
originally thinking of either an AIW or, alternately, a Wonder with a
separate Radeon video cards, in the event that the SiS 760 onboard graphics
chipset was the reason live broadcasts look very good, but still look a
little more like a recording. All the Googling I've done gives no
indication of what graphics quality the SiS video has compared to the
Radeons or GeForce cards, etc. Or is the "slightly off" look a result of
the digital recording process & another video card wouldn't make much
difference? It's sufficiently "close enough for jazz" that I can live with
it if a better graphics card wouldn't make a difference.

The reason I originally was looking at the AIW cards was that there are AGP
models that would then leave the PCI slots open for other things, if I
wanted to add anything else to the box. So, I guess it comes down to the
TV Wonder or the HDTV Wonder, plus (if it'll make a difference) one of the
Radeon graphics cards. Any tips on whether to add a Radeon &, if so, which
one, without breaking the wallet <grin>?

Bill K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

Before I forget, you might want to check out the HTPC forum at
<http://www.avsforum.com>. There's a tremendous amount of expertise about
building home theater machines there--any HTPC hardware you can think of
that has been on the market for any length of time has had some first-hand
discussion there.

Bill Kraski wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If you want TV under Linux then pick a board off of the MythTV
>> compatibility list or one that you know uses the same chip and a
>> compatible tuner.
>
> Checked that out. MythTV doesn't like any of the AIW cards.

Bingo. If you're going to run Linux then an AIW is not a good choice.

>> ATI uses two approaches to their analog TV boards.
>>
>> One is to use a commodity chip from Phillips or Conexant or Brooktree
>> (now owned by Conexant)--this is the approach used in all TV Wonders
>> except the
>> Elite. Those boards have anywhere from so-so to very decent picture
>> quality, and if you know how to set it up they'll work under just about
>> any OS and with just about any application that has TV support.
>
> I checked gatos.sourceforge.net & again no AIW support.

There's support for very old AIWs. But Gatos is a broken driver--it doesn't
support the current Linux video standards properly, so it is not really
useful. I got very frustrated with it before I found that out.

> But a little more
> research on the Xandros forums indicates the Philips tuner that's in the
> Wonder Pro is workable. And further research (via Google) indicates that
> the HDTV Wonder uses an equivalent to that same Philips tuner. So, I
> might try that one.

It may work for analog, you won't get HD out of it under Linux, and under
analog it won't work any better than the many cheaper analog boards.

In an HD board IMO you'd do better to either go for a pcHDTV or an
Air2PC--both will work under both Windows and Linux--the pcHDTV doesn't
officially support Windows (that's right, Windows--it's aimed at the Linux
market) but the drivers are included in the box and are reported to work.
There's going to be a bit of a delay on the Air2PC--there's a new revision
of the board that seems to be experiencing some kind of production
delay--midmonth is promised.

>> In each case the quality of the TV display is controlled by the chip that
>> is connected to the TV tuner--an AIW will not make a TV Wonder's output
>> look better even though the AIW's own TV output looks better than the TV
>> Wonder's. Support for the Rage Theater chips under Linux is almost
>> nonexistent--there is some very limited support for the first-generation
>> chips but none for the later ones.
>
> OK. At least for now, I avoid the boards with the Theater x00 chips. I
> was originally thinking of either an AIW or, alternately, a Wonder with a
> separate Radeon video cards, in the event that the SiS 760 onboard
> graphics chipset was the reason live broadcasts look very good, but still
> look a
> little more like a recording. All the Googling I've done gives no
> indication of what graphics quality the SiS video has compared to the
> Radeons or GeForce cards, etc. Or is the "slightly off" look a result of
> the digital recording process & another video card wouldn't make much
> difference? It's sufficiently "close enough for jazz" that I can live
> with it if a better graphics card wouldn't make a difference.

Generally speaking, the video board unless it's really bad makes little
difference in the quality of the TV display. One consideration though is
that nvidia and ATI provide DirectX Video Acceleration, which can reduce
the CPU workload during video decoding--I can't find any information that
says that the SiS760 does or does not--if it doesn't then adding an nvidia
or ATI board may be worthwhile.

> The reason I originally was looking at the AIW cards was that there are
> AGP models that would then leave the PCI slots open for other things, if I
> wanted to add anything else to the box. So, I guess it comes down to the
> TV Wonder or the HDTV Wonder, plus (if it'll make a difference) one of the
> Radeon graphics cards. Any tips on whether to add a Radeon &, if so,
> which one, without breaking the wallet <grin>?

If you're going to spring for a Radeon, anything from 9500 on up should be
fine for TV--beyond that it depends on what else you want to do with the
machine--if you're not a gamer a 9600 should be fine. If you are into
Linux then it's best to stay a generation or so back--ATI tends to be slow
with Linux driver releases, so a 9600 or 9800 would be a good bet. The main
thing you'll get out of it though is DXVA.

>
> Bill K

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:

> Before I forget, you might want to check out the HTPC forum at
> <http://www.avsforum.com>. There's a tremendous amount of expertise about
> building home theater machines there--any HTPC hardware you can think of
> that has been on the market for any length of time has had some first-hand
> discussion there.

I found that one when I was checking out the ATI HDTV card specs. Great
place.

>> Wonder Pro is workable. And further research (via Google) indicates that
>> the HDTV Wonder uses an equivalent to that same Philips tuner. So, I
>> might try that one.
>
> It may work for analog, you won't get HD out of it under Linux, and under
> analog it won't work any better than the many cheaper analog boards.

Except I can return the Hauppage to CompUSA & pick up an ATI tuner. The
others aren't offered anywhere I know of locally, especially at
CompUSA. ;-)

> In an HD board IMO you'd do better to either go for a pcHDTV or an
> Air2PC--both will work under both Windows and Linux--the pcHDTV doesn't
> officially support Windows (that's right, Windows--it's aimed at the Linux
> market) but the drivers are included in the box and are reported to work.
> There's going to be a bit of a delay on the Air2PC--there's a new revision
> of the board that seems to be experiencing some kind of production
> delay--midmonth is promised.

Both look interesting, but I think I'm going to wait on the HD tuner. I'd
have to get permission from the landlord to get a decent antenna up & none
seem to support HD from cable or satellite, although there's a satellite
card from bbt.

> Generally speaking, the video board unless it's really bad makes little
> difference in the quality of the TV display. One consideration though is
> that nvidia and ATI provide DirectX Video Acceleration, which can reduce
> the CPU workload during video decoding--I can't find any information that
> says that the SiS760 does or does not--if it doesn't then adding an nvidia
> or ATI board may be worthwhile.

Well, I've found even less info Googling about the SiS chipset. But the
Wonder Pro puts out decent video with it. I've noted that the extreme top
of the picture shifts a little, periodically. Would that be ian indication
of little or no acceleration?

> If you're going to spring for a Radeon, anything from 9500 on up should be
> fine for TV--beyond that it depends on what else you want to do with the
> machine--if you're not a gamer a 9600 should be fine. If you are into
> Linux then it's best to stay a generation or so back--ATI tends to be slow
> with Linux driver releases, so a 9600 or 9800 would be a good bet. The
> main thing you'll get out of it though is DXVA.

They have a 9550 with 256 RAM for $90 after rebates. The 9600 with 128 meg
is $130.

Bill K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

Bill Kraski wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> Before I forget, you might want to check out the HTPC forum at
>> <http://www.avsforum.com>. There's a tremendous amount of expertise
>> about building home theater machines there--any HTPC hardware you can
>> think of that has been on the market for any length of time has had some
>> first-hand discussion there.
>
> I found that one when I was checking out the ATI HDTV card specs. Great
> place.
>
>>> Wonder Pro is workable. And further research (via Google) indicates
>>> that
>>> the HDTV Wonder uses an equivalent to that same Philips tuner. So, I
>>> might try that one.
>>
>> It may work for analog, you won't get HD out of it under Linux, and under
>> analog it won't work any better than the many cheaper analog boards.
>
> Except I can return the Hauppage to CompUSA & pick up an ATI tuner. The
> others aren't offered anywhere I know of locally, especially at
> CompUSA. ;-)

The only HD board that is in the big box stores is the ATI--I really wish
that some of these Far East outfits would learn how to market their stuff
properly.

>> In an HD board IMO you'd do better to either go for a pcHDTV or an
>> Air2PC--both will work under both Windows and Linux--the pcHDTV doesn't
>> officially support Windows (that's right, Windows--it's aimed at the
>> Linux market) but the drivers are included in the box and are reported to
>> work. There's going to be a bit of a delay on the Air2PC--there's a new
>> revision of the board that seems to be experiencing some kind of
>> production delay--midmonth is promised.
>
> Both look interesting, but I think I'm going to wait on the HD tuner. I'd
> have to get permission from the landlord to get a decent antenna up & none
> seem to support HD from cable or satellite, although there's a satellite
> card from bbt.

If you're in the US then Federal law requires that the landlord allow you to
put up whatever kind of antenna you need in order to receive HD. Although
if you can get over-the-air analog you should be able to get HD.

I can't find any information about bbt--there are several satellite boards
that work in Europe and other places outside the US, but none that work in
the US, at least not for direct-broadcast satellite (DirecTV, Dish, etc).
Not sure the status of QAM under Linux--there are several boards that work
with unscrambled HD cable in the US--the Dvico gives the most bang for the
buck.l


>> Generally speaking, the video board unless it's really bad makes little
>> difference in the quality of the TV display. One consideration though is
>> that nvidia and ATI provide DirectX Video Acceleration, which can reduce
>> the CPU workload during video decoding--I can't find any information that
>> says that the SiS760 does or does not--if it doesn't then adding an
>> nvidia or ATI board may be worthwhile.
>
> Well, I've found even less info Googling about the SiS chipset. But the
> Wonder Pro puts out decent video with it. I've noted that the extreme top
> of the picture shifts a little, periodically. Would that be ian
> indication of little or no acceleration?

More an indication of a little bit of underscan. Normally that part of the
image is above the top of the visible area on a TV.

>> If you're going to spring for a Radeon, anything from 9500 on up should
>> be fine for TV--beyond that it depends on what else you want to do with
>> the
>> machine--if you're not a gamer a 9600 should be fine. If you are into
>> Linux then it's best to stay a generation or so back--ATI tends to be
>> slow with Linux driver releases, so a 9600 or 9800 would be a good bet.
>> The main thing you'll get out of it though is DXVA.
>
> They have a 9550 with 256 RAM for $90 after rebates. The 9600 with 128
> meg is $130.

The 9550 is a stripped down 9600. Still, should be OK for older games.
Personally I'd spend the 40 more.


>
> Bill K

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:

> The only HD board that is in the big box stores is the ATI--I really wish
> that some of these Far East outfits would learn how to market their stuff
> properly.

I agree. If they're more user & linux friendly, they ought to promote their
products better. But, then again, if they're relatively small & low
production, perhaps they don't want to grow too fast. I know if I hadn't
Googled for more info & had the input you've given me, I'd have never known
any of them existed, much less which ones might be good.

> If you're in the US then Federal law requires that the landlord allow you
> to
> put up whatever kind of antenna you need in order to receive HD. Although
> if you can get over-the-air analog you should be able to get HD.

Well, my analog antenna is an indoor set of tunable "rabbit ears" that a
friend gave me because he switched to cable. It's an RCA model I don't see
even at the store where he got it. But it has the best indoor reception
here I've ever gotten, including with some pretty good amplified antennae.
And it was free, which is always good.

I doubt that my landlord would have a problem with my putting an antenna up.
But, since we have an exceptionally good relationship, I just don't want to
change that by not asking. Also, since I've had times where I've moved
once a year (one house sold, then a "landlord from hell"), I wasn't sure if
I really wanted to put out good money getting an outdoor HD antenna
installed only to move again, leaving something that cost me money, but
might be considered a permanent addition to the building. I haven't seen
any HD antennae yet to determine how nonpermanent they are.

> I can't find any information about bbt--there are several satellite boards
> that work in Europe and other places outside the US, but none that work in
> the US, at least not for direct-broadcast satellite (DirecTV, Dish, etc).
> Not sure the status of QAM under Linux--there are several boards that work
> with unscrambled HD cable in the US--the Dvico gives the most bang for the
> buck.l

That's Broadband Technologies, maker of one of the HD boards you
recommended. I'm so used to doing things like that (IMHO, AIW, etc.) that
I assumed bbt was probably a recognizable short form. ;-)

> More an indication of a little bit of underscan. Normally that part of
> the image is above the top of the visible area on a TV.

OK. I'm in linux, right now, but I think there's a software adjustment for
that in the ATI Multimedia Center.

>> They have a 9550 with 256 RAM for $90 after rebates. The 9600 with 128
>> meg is $130.
>
> The 9550 is a stripped down 9600. Still, should be OK for older games.
> Personally I'd spend the 40 more.

Well, I had to work this morning. So, by the time I got to CompUSA, the
only 9600 left was an open box Dominator that was marked down to $181 from
$190. I wasn't sure if I should trust open box for a video card &
certainly didn't like the extra $60 price jump. So, I got the Wonder Pro,
a 9550 & another 512 megs of RAM (on sale at $39). I'm not sure if the
extra RAM will help, but it can't hurt. The combination of the new
video card, plus the Wonder Pro makes an even better image than before.
I'm happy with it, for now. And it gives me some time to research further
before I decide on a HD card.

Thanks for all the help & info. It's been very useful.

Bill K

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.videocards.ati (More info?)

Bill Kraski wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The only HD board that is in the big box stores is the ATI--I really wish
>> that some of these Far East outfits would learn how to market their stuff
>> properly.
>
> I agree. If they're more user & linux friendly, they ought to promote
> their
> products better. But, then again, if they're relatively small & low
> production, perhaps they don't want to grow too fast. I know if I hadn't
> Googled for more info & had the input you've given me, I'd have never
> known any of them existed, much less which ones might be good.
>
>> If you're in the US then Federal law requires that the landlord allow you
>> to
>> put up whatever kind of antenna you need in order to receive HD.
>> Although if you can get over-the-air analog you should be able to get HD.
>
> Well, my analog antenna is an indoor set of tunable "rabbit ears" that a
> friend gave me because he switched to cable. It's an RCA model I don't
> see
> even at the store where he got it. But it has the best indoor reception
> here I've ever gotten, including with some pretty good amplified antennae.
> And it was free, which is always good.
>
> I doubt that my landlord would have a problem with my putting an antenna
> up. But, since we have an exceptionally good relationship, I just don't
> want to
> change that by not asking. Also, since I've had times where I've moved
> once a year (one house sold, then a "landlord from hell"), I wasn't sure
> if I really wanted to put out good money getting an outdoor HD antenna
> installed only to move again, leaving something that cost me money, but
> might be considered a permanent addition to the building. I haven't seen
> any HD antennae yet to determine how nonpermanent they are.
>
>> I can't find any information about bbt--there are several satellite
>> boards that work in Europe and other places outside the US, but none that
>> work in the US, at least not for direct-broadcast satellite (DirecTV,
>> Dish, etc). Not sure the status of QAM under Linux--there are several
>> boards that work with unscrambled HD cable in the US--the Dvico gives the
>> most bang for the buck.l
>
> That's Broadband Technologies, maker of one of the HD boards you
> recommended. I'm so used to doing things like that (IMHO, AIW, etc.) that
> I assumed bbt was probably a recognizable short form. ;-)

I see--their satellite board seems to be for the European satellite
standard, not US. Lots of boards out that work with European satellite but
so far I've never heard of one that works with US.

The only way to get digital recording of US satellite without going from
digital to analog and back to digital is to hack a DirecTivo to support
video extraction, which works fine and Tivo seems to encourage hacking as
long as it doesn't result in theft of service--some of the hacks have been
incorporated into later revisions of their operating system in fact.
Google HD DirecTivo hacking and you'll find some reports from people who
have done it.

>> More an indication of a little bit of underscan. Normally that part of
>> the image is above the top of the visible area on a TV.
>
> OK. I'm in linux, right now, but I think there's a software adjustment
> for that in the ATI Multimedia Center.
>
>>> They have a 9550 with 256 RAM for $90 after rebates. The 9600 with 128
>>> meg is $130.
>>
>> The 9550 is a stripped down 9600. Still, should be OK for older games.
>> Personally I'd spend the 40 more.
>
> Well, I had to work this morning. So, by the time I got to CompUSA, the
> only 9600 left was an open box Dominator that was marked down to $181 from
> $190. I wasn't sure if I should trust open box for a video card &
> certainly didn't like the extra $60 price jump. So, I got the Wonder Pro,
> a 9550 & another 512 megs of RAM (on sale at $39). I'm not sure if the
> extra RAM will help, but it can't hurt. The combination of the new
> video card, plus the Wonder Pro makes an even better image than before.
> I'm happy with it, for now. And it gives me some time to research further
> before I decide on a HD card.
>
> Thanks for all the help & info. It's been very useful.
>
> Bill K

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)