Enterprise Drives

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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than a
consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available? Maxtors
have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive. No
warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
something similarly drastic.
 
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.

Enterprise drives are built operate 7*24 for years with constant activity, IDE
is not. They also have 5 years warranties, IDE is 1/3.

"mcp6453" <mcp6453@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:407805F6.1BC3@earthlink.net...
> Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
> enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than a
> consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available? Maxtors
> have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive. No
> warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
> something similarly drastic.
>
 
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"mcp6453" <mcp6453@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:407805F6.1BC3@earthlink.net...
> Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
> enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than a
> consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available? Maxtors
> have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive. No
> warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
> something similarly drastic.

Seagate Cheetah, either U160 or U320 SCSI.

Rita
 
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mcp6453 <mcp6453@earthlink.net> wrote in news:407805F6.1BC3@earthlink.net:

> Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
> enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than a
> consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available? Maxtors
> have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive. No
> warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
> something similarly drastic.
>

The "enterprise" class of ATA drives for the most part fall into the title
of "near line storage" by most of the drive makers. If the drive maker has
an ATA drive they classify as "near line storage" then those are the ones
intended for enterprise use. Specifically, they are intended to provide
huge amounts of cheap storage, not for main disk usage, but as an
intermediate backup that is faster than tape. Some of these drives, like
the Maxtor 300GB, operate at about 5400 rpm so they are lower heat and
cooler running than your typical 7200 rpm ATA drive. This would help them
last longer too.

Drives of just about every make and model die, so it's not too wise to
write off an entire brand just because of a single drive failure. It's
more important if you are building an entire system, say a multi-terrabyte
storage unit, to know how good the service and support is going to be if
and when you need to replace drives. You would build such a system with
some redundancy (RAID 5 plus hotspares or better) into it to accomodate for
hardware failures.

If drive failure isn't acceptable, then you build for it. In the simplest
example, if your friend can't afford to loose a drive, then he either backs
up to a second drive OR builds a raid-1 array so that he can loose a drive
and keep working.

I've had all sorts of IDE and SCSI drives fail on me. Seagate, IBM,
Micropolis, Western Digital, Quantum, etc. In this PC I've got two Maxtor
160GB and one 40GB as well as two IBM 22GB, and I push them hard and no
problems so far. But then I've got them in a case with 2 incomming and 3
exhaust fans, so they run much cooler than your average case.
 
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"Mr. Grinch" <grinch@hatespam.yucky> wrote in message
news:Xns94C767FA87793grinchhatespamyucksh@24.71.223.159...
>
> > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
>
>
> http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/ata/enterprise_applications/index.htm

They say "For near-line and other low-I/O secondary storage applications, they
’re rated at better than 1 million hours MTTF.", but don't define what low I/O
means. It is also 3 year warranty.
 
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What does it matter how they attach? That's all NAS is.

Tom
"Dorothy Bradbury" <dorothy.bradbury@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:glVdc.15238$4N3.10722@newsfe1-win...
> > > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
> >
> > http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/ata/enterprise_applications/index.htm
>
> Digging thro the specs, they are citing proven in NAS.
> --
> Dorothy Bradbury
>
>
 
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"Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote in message
news:c594sb12li4@enews3.newsguy.com...
> There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
>
> Enterprise drives are built operate 7*24 for years with constant activity,
IDE
> is not.

No, the SATA Raptor is 5 years warranty and is for 24*7. The length of the
warranty is based on the target market and price point and nothing about
drive reliability may be inferred from it.
 
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"Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote in message
news:c598jv02plp@enews3.newsguy.com...
> "Mr. Grinch" <grinch@hatespam.yucky> wrote in message
> news:Xns94C767FA87793grinchhatespamyucksh@24.71.223.159...
> >
> > > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
> >
> >
> > http://www.maxtor.com/en/products/ata/enterprise_applications/index.htm
>
> They say "For near-line and other low-I/O secondary storage applications,
they
> ’re rated at better than 1 million hours MTTF.", but don't define what low
I/O
> means. It is also 3 year warranty.

Warranty means little here.
 
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Sure Ron, whatever you say. Everyone believed you re the 75GXP, didn't they?

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:FC4ec.12148$i74.238104@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote in message
> news:c594sb12li4@enews3.newsguy.com...
> > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
> >
> > Enterprise drives are built operate 7*24 for years with constant activity,
> IDE
> > is not.
>
> No, the SATA Raptor is 5 years warranty and is for 24*7. The length of the
> warranty is based on the target market and price point and nothing about
> drive reliability may be inferred from it.
>
>
>
 
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Mr. Grinch wrote:

> mcp6453 <mcp6453@earthlink.net> wrote in news:407805F6.1BC3@earthlink.net:
>
>
>>Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
>>enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than a
>>consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available? Maxtors
>>have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive. No
>>warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
>>something similarly drastic.
>>
>
>
> The "enterprise" class of ATA drives for the most part fall into the title
> of "near line storage" by most of the drive makers. If the drive maker has
> an ATA drive they classify as "near line storage" then those are the ones
> intended for enterprise use.

Uh, that may be the definition in your mind, but HD vendor's don't agree.
Western Digital, for example, labels their 10K RPM SATA HDs as ESATA
(for Enterprise SATA), and their 7200 RPM SATA HDs as just plain SATA.

It is not clear that the "enterprise" adjective means anything at all
in terms of quality. While WDC may use "enterprise" to denote faster,
it may be that, for other vendors, "enterprise" only means more expensive.
--
Cheers, Bob
 
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> What does it matter how they attach? That's all NAS is.

That's not what I meant:
o They cite proven in NAS - in terms of application
o NAS being a storage device which has reliability as key criterion

However, since NAS tends to use RAID-1 at the minimum it's moot.

So it comes back to whether the distinction is marketing or engineering:
o If the difference in engineering - it's likely to be tiny
---- a QC process change, minor assembly or part change
---- insignificant in cost yet a statistically quantifiable benefit
o That statistically quantifiable benefit excites marketing
---- be it in headline MTBF or in failures over 1,000 drive installed base

Reality is the gain may be insignificant compared to other system factors,
such as PSU quality, power quality, temperature - re system reliability.

"Low I/O" is an interesting statement - since they say proven in NAS.
Basically sounds like d2d backup to disk, with subsequent backup to tape.

Which is where the cost/capacity of those drives does well.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
 
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Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote in
news:pwbec.111156$gA5.1447506@attbi_s03:
>
> Uh, that may be the definition in your mind, but HD vendor's don't
> agree. Western Digital, for example, labels their 10K RPM SATA HDs as
> ESATA (for Enterprise SATA), and their 7200 RPM SATA HDs as just plain
> SATA.
>
> It is not clear that the "enterprise" adjective means anything at all
> in terms of quality. While WDC may use "enterprise" to denote faster,
> it may be that, for other vendors, "enterprise" only means more
> expensive.

No arguments here. Not like we've never seen a marketing department
stretch the boundaries of definitions before!

But the original poster wanted to know if there were higher quality ATA
drives for "enterprise" use. Some of the responses were "there are no such
thing". In fact there are. These drives have higher reliability ratings
than the desktop ATA drive specs, as well as different warranties which
come into effect when the drive fails.

But everyone's idea of "enterprise" is different. Who knows what the
original poster wants. He could just want a more reliable ATA drive in his
PC. Or he might want a near-line storage unit that seens 7x24 production
usage in a corporate environment. In that case, building the array
properly for cooling, redundancy, and keeping spares handy, is more
important than all the marketing flak and figures posted.

But still, ATA drives are being used in the enterprise, they have higher
ratings, and it's up to the buyer to decide if they can meet his/her
definition of "enterprise" or not. Saying ATA enterprise drives don't
exist just because they don't meet some one else's idea of what a SCSI MTBF
number should be on a given date doesn't make any sense to me.
 
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"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:FC4ec.12148$i74.238104@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote in message news:c594sb12li4@enews3.newsguy.com...
> > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
> >
> > Enterprise drives are built operate 7*24 for years with constant activity,
> IDE
> > is not.
>
> No, the SATA Raptor is 5 years warranty and is for 24*7.

So that is a YES then.

Oh well, what else can you expect from someone who can't even setup his
newsclient properly.

> The length of the warranty is based on the target market and price
> point and nothing about drive reliability may be inferred from it.
>
>
>
 
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"Bob Willard" <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pwbec.111156$gA5.1447506@attbi_s03...
> Mr. Grinch wrote:
>
> > mcp6453 <mcp6453@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:407805F6.1BC3@earthlink.net:
> >
> >
> >>Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
> >>enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than a
> >>consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available? Maxtors
> >>have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive. No
> >>warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
> >>something similarly drastic.
> >>
> >
> >
> > The "enterprise" class of ATA drives for the most part fall into the
title
> > of "near line storage" by most of the drive makers. If the drive maker
has
> > an ATA drive they classify as "near line storage" then those are the
ones
> > intended for enterprise use.
>
> Uh, that may be the definition in your mind, but HD vendor's don't agree.
> Western Digital, for example, labels their 10K RPM SATA HDs as ESATA
> (for Enterprise SATA), and their 7200 RPM SATA HDs as just plain SATA.
>
> It is not clear that the "enterprise" adjective means anything at all
> in terms of quality. While WDC may use "enterprise" to denote faster,
> it may be that, for other vendors, "enterprise" only means more expensive.

Exactly.
 
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"Folkert Rienstra" <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote in message
news:c5co9r$7kmt$2@ID-79662.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:FC4ec.12148$i74.238104@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > "Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote in message
news:c594sb12li4@enews3.newsguy.com...
> > > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
> > >
> > > Enterprise drives are built operate 7*24 for years with constant
activity,
> > IDE
> > > is not.
> >
> > No, the SATA Raptor is 5 years warranty and is for 24*7.
>
> So that is a YES then.

Huh?

> Oh well, what else can you expect from someone who can't even setup his
> newsclient properly.

The usual troll technique of attacking the poster when you run out in
relevant content.
 
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"Mr. Grinch" <grinch@hatespam.yucky> wrote in message
news:Xns94C87A67D8FD4grinchhatespamyucksh@24.71.223.159...
> Bob Willard <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote in
> news:pwbec.111156$gA5.1447506@attbi_s03:
> >
> > Uh, that may be the definition in your mind, but HD vendor's don't
> > agree. Western Digital, for example, labels their 10K RPM SATA HDs as
> > ESATA (for Enterprise SATA), and their 7200 RPM SATA HDs as just plain
> > SATA.
> >
> > It is not clear that the "enterprise" adjective means anything at all
> > in terms of quality. While WDC may use "enterprise" to denote faster,
> > it may be that, for other vendors, "enterprise" only means more
> > expensive.
>
> No arguments here. Not like we've never seen a marketing department
> stretch the boundaries of definitions before!
>
> But the original poster wanted to know if there were higher quality ATA
> drives for "enterprise" use. Some of the responses were "there are no
such
> thing". In fact there are. These drives have higher reliability ratings
> than the desktop ATA drive specs, as well as different warranties which
> come into effect when the drive fails.
>
> But everyone's idea of "enterprise" is different. Who knows what the
> original poster wants. He could just want a more reliable ATA drive in
his
> PC. Or he might want a near-line storage unit that seens 7x24 production
> usage in a corporate environment. In that case, building the array
> properly for cooling, redundancy, and keeping spares handy, is more
> important than all the marketing flak and figures posted.

Exactly.

> But still, ATA drives are being used in the enterprise, they have higher
> ratings, and it's up to the buyer to decide if they can meet his/her
> definition of "enterprise" or not. Saying ATA enterprise drives don't
> exist just because they don't meet some one else's idea of what a SCSI
MTBF
> number should be on a given date doesn't make any sense to me.

Exactly and MTBF is near meaningless for most these purposes.
 
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"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:79mec.9846$K_.309300@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

> Exactly and MTBF is near meaningless for most these purposes.

I agree. We can't know what the original poster wants, but I think there's
consensus here that reliability here is more a function of how the system
as a whole is built, not some marketing term or number off a chart.
 
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"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:S8mec.17326$i74.329243@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net
> "Bob Willard" <BobwBSGS@TrashThis.comcast.net> wrote in message news:pwbec.111156$gA5.1447506@attbi_s03...
> > Mr. Grinch wrote:
> > > mcp6453 <mcp6453@earthlink.net> wrote in news:407805F6.1BC3@earthlink.net:
> > > > Someone mentioned in a prior post that there is such a thing as an
> > > > enterprise ATA drive, which I assume means a higher quality drive than
> > > > a consumer drive. What is the highest quality IDE drive available?
> > > > Maxtors have not been reliable for me. A friend just lost his entire drive.
> > > > No warning, no nothing. I guess a head must have fallen off of an arm or
> > > > something similarly drastic.
> > >
> > > The "enterprise" class of ATA drives for the most part fall into the title
> > > of "near line storage" by most of the drive makers. If the drive maker has
> > > an ATA drive they classify as "near line storage" then those are the ones
> > > intended for enterprise use.
> >
> > Uh, that may be the definition in your mind, but HD vendor's don't agree.
> > Western Digital, for example, labels their 10K RPM SATA HDs as ESATA
> > (for Enterprise SATA), and their 7200 RPM SATA HDs as just plain SATA.
> >
> > It is not clear that the "enterprise" adjective means anything at all
> > in terms of quality. While WDC may use "enterprise" to denote faster,
> > it may be that, for other vendors, "enterprise" only means more expensive.
>
> Exactly.

And the corporate buyer would vote with his foot if it was only that.
 
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> And the corporate buyer would vote with his foot if it was only that.

The corporate crowd will choose SCSI hands down.

Rita
 
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In article <107mahadsbd8m19@corp.supernews.com>,
ritaberk20O4@aol.com says...
> > And the corporate buyer would vote with his foot if it was only that.
>
> The corporate crowd will choose SCSI hands down.
>

For main storage, yes.

For storage of large amounts of data that gets accessed
infrequently... no. SATA raid is so much cheaper then
SCSI, easy enough to build (2) SATA RAID arrays, with
hot-spare drives and hot-spare arrays and still come in
cheaper then SCSI.

But then, SATA doesn't bring anything more to the table
then PATA did in that regards (other then the ease of
cabling and future hot-plug support).
 
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"Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk20O4@aol.com> wrote in message
news:107mahadsbd8m19@corp.supernews.com...
> > And the corporate buyer would vote with his foot if it was only that.
>
> The corporate crowd will choose SCSI hands down.

Not any longer.
 
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"Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk20O4@aol.com> wrote in message news:107mahadsbd8m19@corp.supernews.com...
> > And the corporate buyer would vote with his foot if it was only that.
>
> The corporate crowd will choose SCSI hands down.

Taint their money, stupid.
 
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"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:%8mec.17327$i74.329100@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Folkert Rienstra" <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote in message news:c5co9r$7kmt$2@ID-79662.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:FC4ec.12148$i74.238104@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > >
> > > "Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote in message news:c594sb12li4@enews3.newsguy.com...
> > > > There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but is sATA.
> > > >
> > > > Enterprise drives are built operate 7*24 for years with constant
> activity,
> > > IDE
> > > > is not.
> > >
> > > No, the SATA Raptor is 5 years warranty and is for 24*7.
> >
> > So that is a YES then.
>
> Huh?

Right, too stupid to even notice that that is what he said:

"There are no enterprise ATA drives. The Raptor is, but it is sATA."
"Enterprise drives are built to operate 7*24 for years with constant activity"

So that's a "Yes, the SATA Raptor is 5 years warranty and is for 24*7".

>
> > Oh well, what else can you expect from someone who can't even setup his
> > newsclient properly.
>
> The usual troll technique of attacking the poster when you run out in
> relevant content.

Wimp!
Yes, you have that effect on people. It's hard to resist with you around,
and so deliberately baiting.

But you only need to read a few posts in here to know that I am statistically
right. Find any stupid comment and it wil most likely be in a broken post.

Of course some are just lucky that no lines were exceeding to what their
auto_line_break had been set at.

>
>
 
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