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Backup Question

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May 5, 2004 8:15:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I am going to start backing up my disk using the backup utility that
comes with Win2K. This is in addition to creating two archives with
Drive Image Pro.

The reason is if I have to recover using an archive, I need an easy
way to bring my disk up to date. I am not an expert with backup
utilities so I am asking you all for your advice.

I believe I want an incremental backup at selected times after I make
the archive (which is usually every month). So I imagine using the
backup utility weekly. Therefore to get started I need to mark
everything on the disk as "archived" each time I create a new archive,
so that only incrementally new files will be backed up when I use the
backup utility. When I make the archive disk, I plan on deleting the
old backup file because it is now out of date with respect to the new
archive.

Please comment on how to do all this properly.

Thanks,


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More about : backup question

May 6, 2004 7:30:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 05 May 2004 16:15:48 GMT, spam@spam.com (Bob) wrote:

>I am going to start backing up my disk using the backup utility that
>comes with Win2K. This is in addition to creating two archives with
>Drive Image Pro.
>
>The reason is if I have to recover using an archive, I need an easy
>way to bring my disk up to date. I am not an expert with backup
>utilities so I am asking you all for your advice.
>
>I believe I want an incremental backup at selected times after I make
>the archive (which is usually every month). So I imagine using the
>backup utility weekly. Therefore to get started I need to mark
>everything on the disk as "archived" each time I create a new archive,
>so that only incrementally new files will be backed up when I use the
>backup utility. When I make the archive disk, I plan on deleting the
>old backup file because it is now out of date with respect to the new
>archive.
>
>Please comment on how to do all this properly.
>
>Thanks,

No one is responding to this simple question. Is that because this is
the wrong forum to be asking questions about backup strategies? If so,
please recommend a forum where I can discuss this matter.


--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 7, 2004 3:15:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 06 May 2004 15:30:57 GMT, spam@spam.com (Bob) wrote:

>On Wed, 05 May 2004 16:15:48 GMT, spam@spam.com (Bob) wrote:
>
>>I am going to start backing up my disk using the backup utility that
>>comes with Win2K. This is in addition to creating two archives with
>>Drive Image Pro.
>>
>>The reason is if I have to recover using an archive, I need an easy
>>way to bring my disk up to date. I am not an expert with backup
>>utilities so I am asking you all for your advice.
>>
>>I believe I want an incremental backup at selected times after I make
>>the archive (which is usually every month). So I imagine using the
>>backup utility weekly. Therefore to get started I need to mark
>>everything on the disk as "archived" each time I create a new archive,
>>so that only incrementally new files will be backed up when I use the
>>backup utility. When I make the archive disk, I plan on deleting the
>>old backup file because it is now out of date with respect to the new
>>archive.
>>
>>Please comment on how to do all this properly.
>>
>>Thanks,
>
>No one is responding to this simple question. Is that because this is
>the wrong forum to be asking questions about backup strategies? If so,
>please recommend a forum where I can discuss this matter.
hi bob,
on solution may be to run raid with a removable caddy and 3 hard disks
[identical if possible]
you will need two identical caddies, 3 identical hard disks and a raid
controller card
disk one is your working disk
disk two in the removable caddy
disk 3 is stored outside the computer [preferrably off site]
set up two drives in the removable cradles from the caddies
install one cradle in the computer
setup your raid mirroring array [hard disk one will mirror to hard
disk two] your failsafe back up is the 3 rd drive...every week or
whenever you want to back up just swap the removable drive and rebuild
the array...in the event of a disaster...[destruction of the computer]
you have an exact copy of your working drive stored away from the
computer ready to plug into the machine...you will have lost your data
since the last swap.......be aware that another computer will possibly
not boot into windows using that disk unless it has the same or
similar motherboard....in that scenario your files etc will be easily
transferred to new drive.....

i would not trust microsoft products to back up data in the light of
the huge security issues with MS software demonstrated daily

this is an expensive way of doing it but IMHO an ideal way to backup
without having to worry about incremental backups and refreshing
archives etc....the two disks in the machine will always be identical
and if one fails the other can be booted from.....once it is all setup
all you need to do is swap the drives weekly and allow the time for
the raid to rebuild....
relloman
Related resources
May 7, 2004 3:04:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:15:34 GMT, relloman@beasty.com (rello) wrote:

>>>I am going to start backing up my disk using the backup utility that
>>>comes with Win2K.

>i would not trust microsoft products to back up data in the light of
>the huge security issues with MS software demonstrated daily

I don't trust MS either, but in the case of the backup utility that
comes with Win2K, it is not screwed up because it is a clone of Backup
Executive.

Regarding those daily security issues, it is inconceivable that a huge
company like MS could have overlooked those issues when they were
widely reported sometimes years in advance. The buffer overrun issue,
responsible for multiple sucurity problems with MS products, was well
known literally years before the first major attacks surfaced. Sun
Solaris, for example, had been fixed fully 3 years before.

The reason MS products are vulnerable is because MS knowingly and
deliberately shipped them that way. When the bottomfeeders find the
smoking gun one day, there is going to be hell to pay at MS.


--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 7, 2004 5:44:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Fri, 07 May 2004 11:04:55 GMT, spam@spam.com (Bob) wrote:

>I don't trust MS either, but in the case of the backup utility that
>comes with Win2K, it is not screwed up because it is a clone of Backup
>Executive.

A more manageable way (assuming you aren't looking for corporate grade
backup) is to do this:

- Install a USB2 or FW external drive
- Install imaging SW (I like True Image 7, others like Ghost or Drive
Image)
- Make a full image once a week and incremental images daily.
- Once a week (or whatever floats your boat), copy the full image to
DVD. Store these away from the main computer, even offsite if you
care that much.

This allows you access to older files from the DVD copies, if you need
them, and allows very quick recovery in case of HD crash.



Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
May 8, 2004 1:38:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Fri, 07 May 2004 13:44:26 -0700, Neil Maxwell
<neil.maxwell@intel.com> wrote:

>- Make a full image once a week and incremental images daily.

That's essentially what I am going to do but I will use Drive Image
Pro to make a carbon copy to an IDE drive in a removeable bay and I
will use the Backup utility provided with Win2K (which looks almost
identical to Backup Executive).

You mention doing an incremental backup, but that costs a lot of disk
space if you are modifying the same large files every day. I am
thinking about doing a differential backup.

I will use the scheduler to do the daily backups at 12:00 am each
night. And then once a week I will do one manually where I have turned
off as much as possible. The backup process won't backup up locked
files caused by applications being open - such as the firewall, spam
filter, et al - the things that reside in the tray.

Comments please.

--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 8, 2004 4:39:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <50tn9010tdgpnfgbt25aa1muuuaul9j1mm@4ax.com>,
neil.maxwell@intel.com says...
> On Fri, 07 May 2004 11:04:55 GMT, spam@spam.com (Bob) wrote:
>
> >I don't trust MS either, but in the case of the backup utility that
> >comes with Win2K, it is not screwed up because it is a clone of Backup
> >Executive.
>
> A more manageable way (assuming you aren't looking for corporate grade
> backup) is to do this:
>
> - Install a USB2 or FW external drive
> - Install imaging SW (I like True Image 7, others like Ghost or Drive
> Image)
> - Make a full image once a week and incremental images daily.
> - Once a week (or whatever floats your boat), copy the full image to
> DVD. Store these away from the main computer, even offsite if you
> care that much.
>
> This allows you access to older files from the DVD copies, if you need
> them, and allows very quick recovery in case of HD crash.
>

I'd suggest doing your dailies/hourlies using a regular
file-level backup program like Second Copy 2000. Which
is extremely easy to recover files from (it's a straight
file copy to a 2nd folder tree).

Extremely lightweight software that has been very
reliable for us.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 9, 2004 3:07:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Sat, 8 May 2004 12:39:06 -0400, Toshi1873 <toshi1873@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>In article <50tn9010tdgpnfgbt25aa1muuuaul9j1mm@4ax.com>,
>neil.maxwell@intel.com says...
>> On Fri, 07 May 2004 11:04:55 GMT, spam@spam.com (Bob) wrote:
>>
>> >I don't trust MS either, but in the case of the backup utility that
>> >comes with Win2K, it is not screwed up because it is a clone of Backup
>> >Executive.
>>
>> A more manageable way (assuming you aren't looking for corporate grade
>> backup) is to do this:
>>
>> - Install a USB2 or FW external drive
>> - Install imaging SW (I like True Image 7, others like Ghost or Drive
>> Image)
>> - Make a full image once a week and incremental images daily.
>> - Once a week (or whatever floats your boat), copy the full image to
>> DVD. Store these away from the main computer, even offsite if you
>> care that much.
>>
>> This allows you access to older files from the DVD copies, if you need
>> them, and allows very quick recovery in case of HD crash.
>>
>
>I'd suggest doing your dailies/hourlies using a regular
>file-level backup program like Second Copy 2000. Which
>is extremely easy to recover files from (it's a straight
>file copy to a 2nd folder tree).
>
>Extremely lightweight software that has been very
>reliable for us.
raid may be woth looking at if you are going to buy extra drives
it will keep a mirror image of you hard disk at all times
you can swap your second drive weekly or daily if you have them in
drive caddies.....you wont have to do much except rebuild the array
each time you swap drives...
you will need:
3 identical hard drives
2 removable disk caddies
raid controller card
45 minutes to set up the hardware
30 minutes to build the array


relloman
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 9, 2004 3:21:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously rello <relloman@beasty.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 8 May 2004 12:39:06 -0400, Toshi1873 <toshi1873@nowhere.com>
> wrote:

>>In article <50tn9010tdgpnfgbt25aa1muuuaul9j1mm@4ax.com>,
>>neil.maxwell@intel.com says...
[...]
> raid may be woth looking at if you are going to buy extra drives
> it will keep a mirror image of you hard disk at all times
> you can swap your second drive weekly or daily if you have them in
> drive caddies.....you wont have to do much except rebuild the array
> each time you swap drives...
> you will need:
> 3 identical hard drives

Usually not needed. But if they are different size, you have to do
the array creation with the smallest ones.

> 2 removable disk caddies
> raid controller card

Or software-raid if yous OS has got a devent one. For hardware-RAID
you have to keep a spare controller, because otherwise a controller
failure will make your data very hard to access.
Low-cost mainboard-raid is probably not a good idea.

> 45 minutes to set up the hardware
> 30 minutes to build the array

Make that 2 hours for large drives. For smaller ones (80GB, e.g.)
the times are realistic.

Arno
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"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
May 9, 2004 5:04:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On 8 May 2004 23:21:02 GMT, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>> raid controller card

>Or software-raid if your OS has got a decent one.

Looking at Help for Win2K Pro, the claim is that RAID is available. I
have not chased this down, however, since I am not ready to employ
RAID in my system.

Can anyone comment about the availability and performance of RAID for
Win2K Pro and XP Pro.


--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 9, 2004 5:04:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Bob wrote:

> On 8 May 2004 23:21:02 GMT, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>> raid controller card
>
>>Or software-raid if your OS has got a decent one.
>
> Looking at Help for Win2K Pro, the claim is that RAID is available. I
> have not chased this down, however, since I am not ready to employ
> RAID in my system.
>
> Can anyone comment about the availability and performance of RAID for
> Win2K Pro and XP Pro.

Officially RAID 0 is supported for drives other than the boot drive. There
are hacks to enable RAID 1 and RAID 5, but those hacks have no official
support and there's no guarantee that a future patch won't break them.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
May 9, 2004 10:09:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On 9 May 2004 12:58:45 -0400, adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) wrote:


>I think depending on 3 disks (2 in a RAID1 configuration and one on
>the shelf) is weak because if there is a flaw in the RAID equipment,
>you're screwed. If you could test the detached disk on a second system
>to see that you had a good backup I would feel a little better.

I realize that equipment failure is always a risk, but we usually
presume things work, especially after testing them.

IOW, why pick on RAID equipment? Regular IDE can and does become
defective too. That's doesn't mean we throw it out.

I think what you are saying is that using RAID for backup is fraught
with the same kind of problems any backup system has.

>Is a detached RAID disk identical to a disk produced with a generic
>IDE controller ? If not, then you're dependant on having the right
>raid hardware to read your backup. It also complicates the task of
>restoring specific files from the backup. (or SCSI, if that's
>what you're susing.)

Since I asked about mainboard RAID, aren't there any manufacturers who
provide such capability? It would be desirous to be able to read a
RAID mirror with a standard IDE interface.

>I'd skip the RAID-as-a-backup and use the second and third disk to
>make multilpe generations of disk-disk savesets using ntbackup, or a
>commercial backup product. Each of the disks could have an instance of
>NT installed on it, bootable, so if you needed to do a
>reinstall-to-bare-irn recovery you'd have an OS ready to go.

If I am going to do all that, I just as well use Drive Image Pro and
make carbon copies.

The purpose of my inquiry was twofold: 1) To solicit advise as you
have provided; 2) To see what the options are.

If someone could provide a highly-reliable IDE-compatible RAID 1
interface, either as a PCI board or on the mainboard, would you then
use it?


--

Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy:
http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/

"You can all go to hell, and I will go to Texas."
--David Crockett
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 10, 2004 3:41:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <409e721d.9054790@news-
server.houston.rr.com>, spam@spam.com says...
> Since I asked about mainboard RAID, aren't there any manufacturers who
> provide such capability? It would be desirous to be able to read a
> RAID mirror with a standard IDE interface.
>

A lot of times, drives used in cheap IDE RAID1 solutions
(e.g. Promise FastTrak cards) are readable if you plug
them into a regular IDE port. RAID5 is, of course, a
horse of an entirely different color.

Easy enough to test... setup your RAID, and then break
it by moving one of the two drives over to a standard
IDE/SATA interface. (Or even install it in a 2nd
machine.)
!