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Which Tape Drive for PC Workstation?

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 2:05:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.

It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?

Thanks for your help.

More about : tape drive workstation

May 26, 2004 5:29:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I'm afraid that inexpensive tape for a single workstation is gone forever.
Occasional archiving can be done with DVD writer technology.
Unattended operations are best with additional hard drives - internal for
fault tolerance, - external for off site. Most typical external disk drives
have USB (2.0) interface.

"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
> It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 5:49:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Obadiah wrote:

> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
> It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?

Yeah, forget tape. Note, by the way, that below I use actual capacity while
the manufacturers use "compressed capacity" which is meaningless--double
mine for the manufacturer numbers.

LTO and DLT are very well established, very reliable devices that are priced
out of the reach of most individual computer users. 8mm helical scan (AIT,
VXA, Exabyte Mammoth), is a little less pricey and still very reliable but
it's still more than most folks can afford. 4mm helical scan (DDS or DAT)
is decent but the tapes have a limited service life, the drives have to be
cleaned on schedule or they act up, and the largest DDS drive is only 36
gig and costs as much as an 80 gig VXA. The rest, forget about it, they're
all junk.

Best bet with tape would be a VXA-2 drive, which is about a thousand bucks
plus host adapter plus 70 bucks a shot for 60 gig tapes.

Now consider that Newegg has 80 gig hard drives in stock from all major
manufacturers for under 70 bucks a shot. Using those drives, a suitable
enclosure, and the right host adapter you can set up a daily rotation
backup on a 7-day cycle with removable media for less than the price of
that drive and one tape.
>
> Thanks for your help.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 7:11:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

> Obadiah wrote:
>
> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> > be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
> >
> > It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> > storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> > different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>
> Yeah, forget tape. Note, by the way, that below I use actual capacity while
> the manufacturers use "compressed capacity" which is meaningless--double
> mine for the manufacturer numbers.
>
> LTO and DLT are very well established, very reliable devices that are priced
> out of the reach of most individual computer users. 8mm helical scan (AIT,
> VXA, Exabyte Mammoth), is a little less pricey and still very reliable but
> it's still more than most folks can afford. 4mm helical scan (DDS or DAT)
> is decent but the tapes have a limited service life, the drives have to be
> cleaned on schedule or they act up, and the largest DDS drive is only 36
> gig and costs as much as an 80 gig VXA. The rest, forget about it, they're
> all junk.
>
> Best bet with tape would be a VXA-2 drive, which is about a thousand bucks
> plus host adapter plus 70 bucks a shot for 60 gig tapes.
>
> Now consider that Newegg has 80 gig hard drives in stock from all major
> manufacturers for under 70 bucks a shot. Using those drives, a suitable
> enclosure, and the right host adapter you can set up a daily rotation
> backup on a 7-day cycle with removable media for less than the price of
> that drive and one tape.
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
>
> --
> --John
> Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Thanks for the kind follow up. I think you're right that a HD maybe the route.
I would like to explore 4mm tape before going there before. Can you recommend a
good make?

Thanks.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 7:13:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter wrote:

> I'm afraid that inexpensive tape for a single workstation is gone forever.
> Occasional archiving can be done with DVD writer technology.
> Unattended operations are best with additional hard drives - internal for
> fault tolerance, - external for off site. Most typical external disk drives
> have USB (2.0) interface.
>
> "Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> > be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
> >
> > It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> > storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> > different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >

Thanks for your help. I was afraid that the day of the good ol' tape streamers
were over. Is DVD-RW a viable option? Also, I remember "back in the day"
people backing up to a VCR. Anyone still do this?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 9:37:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

You will pay BIG money for a good drive for that much data. Instead, I
would recommend a removable drive bay and several drives. WD 120 GB special
edition drives are less than $100, Vantec removable caddy is like $35. I
use Pelican cases for transporting drives off site, they are waterproof and
mostly crush proof. The foam can be cut in such a way that the drive is
cushioned all the way around with like 2 or 3" of foam. VERY nice. No
worries about getting wet from rain while going to the car and if I drop it
on concrete, no biggie. Hell, I could throw it in the river and I am sure
the drive wouldn't get wet. Good tape drives are VERY expensive and require
maintenance. Even tapes are very expensive, and slow on top of that. My
backup is only about 15GB right now, so I have each 120GB removable drive
keep 4 backups on it (a little growing room), all automated. I like using
this backup method on top of RAID 1, I feel pretty much covered.

--Dan

"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
> It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 9:37:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

dg wrote:

> You will pay BIG money for a good drive for that much data. Instead, I
> would recommend a removable drive bay and several drives. WD 120 GB special
> edition drives are less than $100, Vantec removable caddy is like $35. I
> use Pelican cases for transporting drives off site, they are waterproof and
> mostly crush proof. The foam can be cut in such a way that the drive is
> cushioned all the way around with like 2 or 3" of foam. VERY nice. No
> worries about getting wet from rain while going to the car and if I drop it
> on concrete, no biggie. Hell, I could throw it in the river and I am sure
> the drive wouldn't get wet. Good tape drives are VERY expensive and require
> maintenance. Even tapes are very expensive, and slow on top of that. My
> backup is only about 15GB right now, so I have each 120GB removable drive
> keep 4 backups on it (a little growing room), all automated. I like using
> this backup method on top of RAID 1, I feel pretty much covered.
>
> --Dan
>
> "Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> > be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
> >
> > It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> > storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> > different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >

Thanks. That does sound like a good idea.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 11:29:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.

Don't even think about a tape. Get an inexpensive USB or other removeable
HD and use a HD for backup.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 26, 2004 11:29:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh wrote:

> "Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> > be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
> Don't even think about a tape. Get an inexpensive USB or other removeable
> HD and use a HD for backup.

Thanks.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 1:35:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Obadiah wrote:

>
>
> Peter wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid that inexpensive tape for a single workstation is gone
>> forever. Occasional archiving can be done with DVD writer technology.
>> Unattended operations are best with additional hard drives - internal for
>> fault tolerance, - external for off site. Most typical external disk
>> drives have USB (2.0) interface.
>>
>> "Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
>> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
>> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
>> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it
>> > can be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>> >
>> > It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
>> > storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array
>> > of
>> > different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>> >
>> > Thanks for your help.
>> >
>
> Thanks for your help. I was afraid that the day of the good ol' tape
> streamers
> were over. Is DVD-RW a viable option? Also, I remember "back in the day"
> people backing up to a VCR. Anyone still do this?

Capacity is limited and it's very slow--the gadget that you need in order to
do it still pops up on ebay now and then but I don't remember now what
keywords I was using when I ran across them.

DVD-RW is a viable option however the capacity is again somewhat limited.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 5:52:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 26 May 2004 13:49:14 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>Obadiah wrote:

>LTO and DLT are very well established, very reliable devices that are priced
>out of the reach of most individual computer users. 8mm helical scan (AIT,
>VXA, Exabyte Mammoth), is a little less pricey and still very reliable but
>it's still more than most folks can afford. 4mm helical scan (DDS or DAT)
>is decent but the tapes have a limited service life, the drives have to be
>cleaned on schedule or they act up, and the largest DDS drive is only 36
>gig and costs as much as an 80 gig VXA. The rest, forget about it, they're
>all junk.

You can pick up a nice Exabyte for a few hundred bucks (8505) or a bit
more for an 8705 on EBay. Uncompressed capacity is 7 GB, not as much
as you're seeking, but good software can address that (more about
later).

8 mm Exabyte (non-Mammoth) tapes are readily available on EBay for a
$1-3 each. And, with tapes, you can store backups offsite, and you
can store more than a few days worth of backups. What happens when
you need to retrieve a good copy of a file that was somehow trashed
two weeks ago? Disk? I doubt that.

Consider Retrospect by Dantz Software. www.dantz.com. About $90k for
the Professional version. With Dantz, once you have done a full
backup, each subsequent backup includes only those files that have
been changed. And it is smart enough to know which files do NOT need
to be restored, if you are rebuilding a disk. This works fine,but in
practice, you will want to start a new backup cycle every so often.

Dantz is head-and-shoulders above "personal" backup programs like
BackUpMyPC. If you do decide to go with disk-to-disk or disk-to-CDR
backup, Dantz supports those options too. Check it out. Well worth
it.
>
>Best bet with tape would be a VXA-2 drive, which is about a thousand bucks
>plus host adapter plus 70 bucks a shot for 60 gig tapes.

See above. Even if you do go with a VAX-2 drive, consider sourcing
your tapes from EBay.
>
>Now consider that Newegg has 80 gig hard drives in stock from all major
>manufacturers for under 70 bucks a shot. Using those drives, a suitable
>enclosure, and the right host adapter you can set up a daily rotation
>backup on a 7-day cycle with removable media for less than the price of
>that drive and one tape.
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 1:14:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 26 May 2004 10:05:56 -0700, Obadiah <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
>stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
>backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
>be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
>It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
>storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
>different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>
>Thanks for your help.


Check out Iomega's REV drives, 35GB (native) removable 2.5" HD's. I've
had one now for 4 weeks. I got it to replace my OnStream tape drive
and I'm very happy with it. Originally I was looking at DDS4 or 2nd
hand DLT or something. Check out my review in this group in the
thread "Comments on Iomega's 35Gb removable REV drive?" posted on 17th
May and
http://www.iomega-europe.com/eu/en/products/rev/rev_fam...


NO SPAM
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 2:13:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Winey wrote:

> On Wed, 26 May 2004 13:49:14 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Obadiah wrote:
>
>>LTO and DLT are very well established, very reliable devices that are
>>priced
>>out of the reach of most individual computer users. 8mm helical scan
>>(AIT,
>>VXA, Exabyte Mammoth), is a little less pricey and still very reliable
>>but
>>it's still more than most folks can afford. 4mm helical scan (DDS or DAT)
>>is decent but the tapes have a limited service life, the drives have to be
>>cleaned on schedule or they act up, and the largest DDS drive is only 36
>>gig and costs as much as an 80 gig VXA. The rest, forget about it,
>>they're all junk.
>
> You can pick up a nice Exabyte for a few hundred bucks (8505) or a bit
> more for an 8705 on EBay. Uncompressed capacity is 7 GB, not as much
> as you're seeking, but good software can address that (more about
> later).
>
> 8 mm Exabyte (non-Mammoth) tapes are readily available on EBay for a
> $1-3 each. And, with tapes, you can store backups offsite, and you
> can store more than a few days worth of backups. What happens when
> you need to retrieve a good copy of a file that was somehow trashed
> two weeks ago? Disk? I doubt that.

If you're only storing 7 gig, that's 2 DVDs. 8mm drives don't need to be
cleaned quite as religiously as 4mm, but they still need regular
maintenance. If your ebay drive is not new in sealed box there's a good
chance that it's dead. Further, the tapes wear out--again if those tapes
are not new in sealed box they're very likely dead.

> Consider Retrospect by Dantz Software. www.dantz.com. About $90k for
> the Professional version. With Dantz, once you have done a full
> backup, each subsequent backup includes only those files that have
> been changed.

That is called an "incremental backup" and Windows backup does that just
fine, you don't need to spend "$90k" for it.

If you're doing 7 gig at a time then a single 70 gig disk will hold ten of
those. Or you can use 10 7 gig drives which go for about the same price as
those tapes.

> And it is smart enough to know which files do NOT need
> to be restored, if you are rebuilding a disk.

You're saying that it doesn't restore files that have been deleted since the
backup? Or that it doesn't overwrite files? Or that you can tell it which
files to restore? Or what?

> This works fine,but in
> practice, you will want to start a new backup cycle every so often.
>
> Dantz is head-and-shoulders above "personal" backup programs like
> BackUpMyPC. If you do decide to go with disk-to-disk or disk-to-CDR
> backup, Dantz supports those options too. Check it out. Well worth
> it.

Windows Backup supports disk to disk or to any other media that can be
mounted as a disk including network shares.

>>Best bet with tape would be a VXA-2 drive, which is about a thousand bucks
>>plus host adapter plus 70 bucks a shot for 60 gig tapes.
>
> See above. Even if you do go with a VAX-2 drive, consider sourcing
> your tapes from EBay.

You can get VXA-2 tapes for less on ebay but you can also get hard drives
for less on ebay, and it's even money which is more likely to work.

>>Now consider that Newegg has 80 gig hard drives in stock from all major
>>manufacturers for under 70 bucks a shot. Using those drives, a suitable
>>enclosure, and the right host adapter you can set up a daily rotation
>>backup on a 7-day cycle with removable media for less than the price of
>>that drive and one tape.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 2:43:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <40B5161F.A22AE54A@yahoo.com>,
pilgrimworker@yahoo.com says...
> Thanks for the kind follow up. I think you're right that a HD maybe the route.
> I would like to explore 4mm tape before going there before. Can you recommend a
> good make?
>

IIRC, 4mm tape topped out at 20GB/40GB (DDS4?). And
those drives are still $1000. The individual tapes are
a bit cheaper though, only $9 each.

http://www.pricescan.com/01012600.asp
http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=42006&CMP=KNC-
DK1974361877

External HDs are down-n-dirty simple. I recommend
getting 5400rpm drives since they run cooler.

My favorite enclosure is the MACE GROUP CA-405U2 USB 2.0
Enclosure. It's reasonably small (you could probably
fit 2 in a briefcase), moderately well put-together.

The big reason I like the CA-405U2 is that it has a
built-in power-supply. That means you don't have to
worry about a proprietary and hard-to-replace power-
brick that can get lost/damaged. Since it uses the
standard AC power cable, you can swipe one off the
nearest laser printer / monitor / PC in a pinch.

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a firewire enclosure
that is as small as the CA-405U2 that also includes an
internal power-supply. A lot of makers seem to be
moving away from internal power-supplies on the smaller
units. (Someone tell the marketing folks that small
isn't everything if you have to carry around that power-
brick.)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 3:56:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
> It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>

You have 40 to 65Gb of "new data" each day?? if not why backup the total
disk. A full backup once then incremental for 6 days then another full
backup. Not the quickest way if you HAD to do a restore but it might mean
that a DVD/CD device could the incrementals for you and save time for the
backup.

Please do test the backup / restore route before you have the crash! No
matter what anyone says there are only two types of hard disk......
Those that have failed
Those that will fail.

regards
ted
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 3:56:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

ted msn wrote:

>
> "Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
>> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
>> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
>> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
>> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>>
>> It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
>> storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
>> different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>>
>> Thanks for your help.
>>
>
> You have 40 to 65Gb of "new data" each day?? if not why backup the total
> disk. A full backup once then incremental for 6 days then another full
> backup. Not the quickest way if you HAD to do a restore but it might mean
> that a DVD/CD device could the incrementals for you and save time for the
> backup.

Or you can do differential and then you have only the full and partial to
restore.

> Please do test the backup / restore route before you have the crash! No
> matter what anyone says there are only two types of hard disk......
> Those that have failed
> Those that will fail.
>
> regards
> ted

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
May 27, 2004 3:56:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

That is not true.
Most of the hard disks are thrown out (sometimes with the whole PC) before
they had a chance to fail.
It depends on the meaning of the word "fail".

"ted msn" <ted_greagsbey@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c94l16$1i1$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> "Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> > be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
> >
> > It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> > storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> > different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
>
> You have 40 to 65Gb of "new data" each day?? if not why backup the total
> disk. A full backup once then incremental for 6 days then another full
> backup. Not the quickest way if you HAD to do a restore but it might mean
> that a DVD/CD device could the incrementals for you and save time for the
> backup.
>
> Please do test the backup / restore route before you have the crash! No
> matter what anyone says there are only two types of hard disk......
> Those that have failed
> Those that will fail.
>
> regards
> ted
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 3:56:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <c94l16$1i1$1@sparta.btinternet.com>,
ted_greagsbey@msn.com says...
> You have 40 to 65Gb of "new data" each day?? if not why backup the total
> disk. A full backup once then incremental for 6 days then another full
> backup. Not the quickest way if you HAD to do a restore but it might mean
> that a DVD/CD device could the incrementals for you and save time for the
> backup.
>

Some of the newer software also has a "differential"
backup. Do a full backup on Friday night, then Mon-Thu
it only backs up what changed between last Friday and
that day.

So a file the changes on monday afternoon ends up on Mon
night's tape, and Tue night's tape, and Wed's tape, and
Thu's tape.

Takes a bit more space on the tape then the daily
incremental approach, but makes it much easier to
restore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 3:56:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Toshi1873 wrote:

> In article <40B5161F.A22AE54A@yahoo.com>,
> pilgrimworker@yahoo.com says...
>> Thanks for the kind follow up. I think you're right that a HD maybe the
>> route.
>> I would like to explore 4mm tape before going there before. Can you
>> recommend a good make?
>>
>
> IIRC, 4mm tape topped out at 20GB/40GB (DDS4?). And
> those drives are still $1000. The individual tapes are
> a bit cheaper though, only $9 each.

DDS-5 hardware is commercially available for about 900 bucks. 36/72 gig.

> http://www.pricescan.com/01012600.asp
> http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=42006&CMP=KNC-
> DK1974361877
>
> External HDs are down-n-dirty simple. I recommend
> getting 5400rpm drives since they run cooler.
>
> My favorite enclosure is the MACE GROUP CA-405U2 USB 2.0
> Enclosure. It's reasonably small (you could probably
> fit 2 in a briefcase), moderately well put-together.
>
> The big reason I like the CA-405U2 is that it has a
> built-in power-supply. That means you don't have to
> worry about a proprietary and hard-to-replace power-
> brick that can get lost/damaged. Since it uses the
> standard AC power cable, you can swipe one off the
> nearest laser printer / monitor / PC in a pinch.
>
> Unfortunately, I have yet to find a firewire enclosure
> that is as small as the CA-405U2 that also includes an
> internal power-supply. A lot of makers seem to be
> moving away from internal power-supplies on the smaller
> units. (Someone tell the marketing folks that small
> isn't everything if you have to carry around that power-
> brick.)

The trouble with this approach is that you can't really do a rotation backup
with just a single drive--one of the purposes of the rotation backup is to
minimize data loss if the same event that takes out the disk also takes out
the tape that is in the machine. You need at least two drives, one that is
online and one that is not connected to anything, to deal with that
eventuality.

When you get into multiple external enclosures you add cost--with the
CA-405U2 you're adding about 36 bucks to each drive. With Dataport IVs
you're paying about 22 bucks for the enclosure and 15 for each frame. If
you go with a good Taiwanese knockoff such as the Lian-Li RH-10 then you're
looking at about 20 bucks for the enclosure and you can find the racks for
as little as 3 bucks.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
May 27, 2004 8:53:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:23:02 -0400, Toshi1873 <toshi1873@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>Some of the newer software also has a "differential"
>backup. Do a full backup on Friday night, then Mon-Thu
>it only backs up what changed between last Friday and
>that day.

>So a file the changes on monday afternoon ends up on Mon
>night's tape, and Tue night's tape, and Wed's tape, and
>Thu's tape.

>Takes a bit more space on the tape then the daily
>incremental approach, but makes it much easier to
>restore.

Not if you modify the same large files everyday. With incremental
backup you will be backing up the same large files each night jast as
you do with differential backup, but you will not be overwriting the
backup volume with incremental. Therefore with incremental, that
backup volume will grow each night. With differential you overwrite
the backup volume each night, so it doesn't grow.

You can easily convince yourself of this. On the first night run an
incremental backup to get a baseline. Then run only differential
backups keeping track each night of the volume size (mine is typically
400 MB). If your usage is similar to mine, you will find that the
incremental and differential backups are about the same size.



--
Anubis, Supreme Goa'uld War Lord

* Mental Strength Is Essential For Success
* Fatigue Makes Cowards Of Us All
* Control The Ball
* Work On Lombardi Time
* Make That Second Effort
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 10:47:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"ted msn" <ted_greagsbey@msn.com> wrote in message news:c94l16$1i1
> Please do test the backup / restore route before you have the crash! No
> matter what anyone says there are only two types of hard disk......
> Those that have failed
> Those that will fail.

There are four kinds of tapes:
Those that never worked.
Those that have already failed.
Those that will fail tomorrow.
Those with no available working drive.

Harddrives are the preferred backup media unless one is in an enterprise
environment with the very best drives and experts to operate the drives and
handle the tapes.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 27, 2004 10:50:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Toshi1873" <toshi1873@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b1fc891f9aa75739898fb@news-50.giganews.com...
> In article <40B5161F.A22AE54A@yahoo.com>,
> pilgrimworker@yahoo.com says...
> > Thanks for the kind follow up. I think you're right that a HD maybe the
route.
> > I would like to explore 4mm tape before going there before. Can you
recommend a
> > good make?
> >
>
> IIRC, 4mm tape topped out at 20GB/40GB (DDS4?). And
> those drives are still $1000.

For that $1000 one can get FOUR 250GB ATA HDs each in a removeable tray.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 28, 2004 4:28:21 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Check out these pics of the pelican cases I was writing about, I am pretty
happy with how they are working out. I feel like the drives are as safe as
I could possibly hope, awesome cases. The foam is called "pick and pluck"
which means it is scored into little cubes and you can pluck out the exact
shape of the drive enclosure. This case is the 1400 model.

http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/EXTERIOR.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR2.JPG
http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/BAY.JPG



"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40B516AE.1FFD39DC@yahoo.com...
> Thanks. That does sound like a good idea.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 28, 2004 1:36:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@att.net> wrote:

>"Toshi1873" <toshi1873@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1b1fc891f9aa75739898fb@news-50.giganews.com...
>> In article <40B5161F.A22AE54A@yahoo.com>,
>> pilgrimworker@yahoo.com says...
>> > Thanks for the kind follow up. I think you're right that a HD maybe the
>route.
>> > I would like to explore 4mm tape before going there before. Can you
>recommend a
>> > good make?
>> >
>>
>> IIRC, 4mm tape topped out at 20GB/40GB (DDS4?). And
>> those drives are still $1000.
>
>For that $1000 one can get FOUR 250GB ATA HDs each in a removeable tray.

Ever consider fixing your newsreader so that it doesn't mangle quotes,
Rod^Hn? I mean, why wouldn't you? Do you think mangled quotes are a
good thing?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 31, 2004 3:26:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I had originally thought of swapable SATA drive enclosures but this
should work pretty well. I cannot find a website address for Mace Group
when I have checked on Google. Do you know the address?

Thanke
Ken K

Toshi1873 wrote:

>In article <40B5161F.A22AE54A@yahoo.com>,
>pilgrimworker@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>>Thanks for the kind follow up. I think you're right that a HD maybe the route.
>>I would like to explore 4mm tape before going there before. Can you recommend a
>>good make?
>>
>>
>>
>
>IIRC, 4mm tape topped out at 20GB/40GB (DDS4?). And
>those drives are still $1000. The individual tapes are
>a bit cheaper though, only $9 each.
>
>http://www.pricescan.com/01012600.asp
>http://www.superwarehouse.com/p.cfm?p=42006&CMP=KNC-
>DK1974361877
>
>External HDs are down-n-dirty simple. I recommend
>getting 5400rpm drives since they run cooler.
>
>My favorite enclosure is the MACE GROUP CA-405U2 USB 2.0
>Enclosure. It's reasonably small (you could probably
>fit 2 in a briefcase), moderately well put-together.
>
>The big reason I like the CA-405U2 is that it has a
>built-in power-supply. That means you don't have to
>worry about a proprietary and hard-to-replace power-
>brick that can get lost/damaged. Since it uses the
>standard AC power cable, you can swipe one off the
>nearest laser printer / monitor / PC in a pinch.
>
>Unfortunately, I have yet to find a firewire enclosure
>that is as small as the CA-405U2 that also includes an
>internal power-supply. A lot of makers seem to be
>moving away from internal power-supplies on the smaller
>units. (Someone tell the marketing folks that small
>isn't everything if you have to carry around that power-
>brick.)
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 31, 2004 6:30:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Did you order the case with anti-static foam?

Thanks
Ken K

dg wrote:

>You will pay BIG money for a good drive for that much data. Instead, I
>would recommend a removable drive bay and several drives. WD 120 GB special
>edition drives are less than $100, Vantec removable caddy is like $35. I
>use Pelican cases for transporting drives off site, they are waterproof and
>mostly crush proof. The foam can be cut in such a way that the drive is
>cushioned all the way around with like 2 or 3" of foam. VERY nice. No
>worries about getting wet from rain while going to the car and if I drop it
>on concrete, no biggie. Hell, I could throw it in the river and I am sure
>the drive wouldn't get wet. Good tape drives are VERY expensive and require
>maintenance. Even tapes are very expensive, and slow on top of that. My
>backup is only about 15GB right now, so I have each 120GB removable drive
>keep 4 backups on it (a little growing room), all automated. I like using
>this backup method on top of RAID 1, I feel pretty much covered.
>
>--Dan
>
>"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5@yahoo.com...
>
>
>>Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
>>stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
>>backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
>>be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>>
>>It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
>>storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
>>different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>>
>>Thanks for your help.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 31, 2004 6:32:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Do you have any thoughts about Vantec versus Kingwin?

Thanks
Ken K

P.S. I would be grateful if you would check out my post on a similar
topic today, 5/31, at 11:47AM.

dg wrote:

>Check out these pics of the pelican cases I was writing about, I am pretty
>happy with how they are working out. I feel like the drives are as safe as
>I could possibly hope, awesome cases. The foam is called "pick and pluck"
>which means it is scored into little cubes and you can pluck out the exact
>shape of the drive enclosure. This case is the 1400 model.
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/EXTERIOR.JPG
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR.JPG
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR2.JPG
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/BAY.JPG
>
>
>
>"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:40B516AE.1FFD39DC@yahoo.com...
>
>
>>Thanks. That does sound like a good idea.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 31, 2004 6:32:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Do you have any thoughts about Vantec versus Kingwin?

Thanks
Ken K

P.S. I would be grateful if you would check out my post on a similar
topic today, 5/31, at 11:47AM.

dg wrote:

>Check out these pics of the pelican cases I was writing about, I am pretty
>happy with how they are working out. I feel like the drives are as safe as
>I could possibly hope, awesome cases. The foam is called "pick and pluck"
>which means it is scored into little cubes and you can pluck out the exact
>shape of the drive enclosure. This case is the 1400 model.
>
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/EXTERIOR.JPG
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR.JPG
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/INTERIOR2.JPG
>http://home.pacbell.net/dankgus/BACKUP/BAY.JPG
>
>
>
>"Obadiah" <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:40B516AE.1FFD39DC@yahoo.com...
>
>
>>Thanks. That does sound like a good idea.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 31, 2004 9:49:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Obadiah <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5
@yahoo.com:

> Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
>
> It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?

If you're not sure how much you want to spend for your backup solution, try
and put a price on what it would cost you if the data were lost. If it's
no big loss and you could start from scratch and the downtime wouldn't mean
much, then by all means go for the cheapest solution. If you need to make
the data portable, so that you can give it to someone else for restore,
that might have some impact on your choice as well.

You will find several responses here suggesting using additional ATA
drives, either external or in removable drive bays. Given how ATA storage
prices are dropping, I'd definately consider these options. Compared to
many tape solutions, ATA HDs are often cheaper per MB, and faster for
backups and restores.

For tape backups in the size you suggest, most of the drives do tend to be
expenisve. But be certain to include the cost of the tapes you will need.
The total cost of tapes is often more than the drive itself. Also remember
that the size quoted on many tape drives is the amount of storage with a
certain amount of compression assumed. The actual amount of storage is
usually half or even less. A Sony ATI-500 would get you 50GB of
uncompressed storage, which is in your ballpark. A DLT 40/80 (40GB
uncompressed) might be too small for you, next up are Super DLT at 110/220,
perhaps overkill for you. DAT drives are another consideration.

I'm partial to DLT simply because I've used them alot, found them reliable
and easy to maintain, and found cheap sources for tapes and the older
drives. I'm using a Compaq 20/40 right now. But I've also got a Maxtor
Maxline 300GB ATA drive and I use that much more regulary for backups,
because it's fast and easy to use. I use Robocopy (free reskit tool) and
scripts to backup to it. With the amount of data you have, you could have
several days worth of backups on a drive like this, perhaps even more days
if the data can be compressed, either with a utility or using NTFS
disk/file compression.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
June 1, 2004 5:20:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Mr. Grinch" wrote:

> Obadiah <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in news:40B4CE74.A6968AC5
> @yahoo.com:
>
> > Howdy. I am looking for some recommendations on a tape drive for a
> > stand-alone PC workstation running WindowsXP Pro. I need a way of
> > backing up an entire HD (say 40-65GB) to a single tape. That way it can
> > be set to auto-run at 5:30PM and should be done by thee next day.
> >
> > It seems like all the newer tape drives I see are for server or network
> > storage devices and are very spendy. There are also an amazing array of
> > different storage technologies. Any suggestions for a desktop?
>
> If you're not sure how much you want to spend for your backup solution, try
> and put a price on what it would cost you if the data were lost. If it's
> no big loss and you could start from scratch and the downtime wouldn't mean
> much, then by all means go for the cheapest solution. If you need to make
> the data portable, so that you can give it to someone else for restore,
> that might have some impact on your choice as well.
>
> You will find several responses here suggesting using additional ATA
> drives, either external or in removable drive bays. Given how ATA storage
> prices are dropping, I'd definately consider these options. Compared to
> many tape solutions, ATA HDs are often cheaper per MB, and faster for
> backups and restores.
>
> For tape backups in the size you suggest, most of the drives do tend to be
> expenisve. But be certain to include the cost of the tapes you will need.
> The total cost of tapes is often more than the drive itself. Also remember
> that the size quoted on many tape drives is the amount of storage with a
> certain amount of compression assumed. The actual amount of storage is
> usually half or even less. A Sony ATI-500 would get you 50GB of
> uncompressed storage, which is in your ballpark. A DLT 40/80 (40GB
> uncompressed) might be too small for you, next up are Super DLT at 110/220,
> perhaps overkill for you. DAT drives are another consideration.
>
> I'm partial to DLT simply because I've used them alot, found them reliable
> and easy to maintain, and found cheap sources for tapes and the older
> drives. I'm using a Compaq 20/40 right now. But I've also got a Maxtor
> Maxline 300GB ATA drive and I use that much more regulary for backups,
> because it's fast and easy to use. I use Robocopy (free reskit tool) and
> scripts to backup to it. With the amount of data you have, you could have
> several days worth of backups on a drive like this, perhaps even more days
> if the data can be compressed, either with a utility or using NTFS
> disk/file compression.

Thanks for your kind follow up. Do you know a good vendor of DLT equipment?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
June 2, 2004 12:13:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Obadiah <pilgrimworker@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:40BCE511.427C1355@yahoo.com:

> "Mr. Grinch" wrote:
> Thanks for your kind follow up. Do you know a good vendor of DLT
> equipment?

Where I work, we've always bought new DLTs from Compaq / HP, or whatever
vendor would give us the best price on them. Some vendors insist on a 14 to
20% price over cost, others are happy with 4% or less. For used, try ebay,
ubid, etc, or local computer services retailers that might have old drives to
sell after upgrading customers to bigger drives.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
June 4, 2004 6:39:32 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <10bmtv04ntokue9@corp.supernews.com>,
psnwREMOVE@NotheSPAMkrones.com says...
> I had originally thought of swapable SATA drive enclosures but this
> should work pretty well. I cannot find a website address for Mace Group
> when I have checked on Google. Do you know the address?
>

You can also try: www.macally.com
- not sure if it's also the Mace Group, but seems to be
the same stuff. The CA-405U2 enclosure is getting
harder to find.

I may look at removable bays again, but a good quality
bay adds about the same cost as the external USB
enclosure. If they made a 5400rpm SATA drive (cooler
temp) that I could stick in a removable SATA bay, I'd be
very happy. Putting a hot-running 7200rpm SATA in one
of those leaves me less comfortable (since my backup
workstation is not located in a 60F climate-controlled
server room).

USB/firewire enclosures have one (minor) advantage over
the removable bays. Ease-of-use after a disaster (just
about any PC made has the hardware needed to retrieve
files off the device).
!