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approx. what temperature causes pain to human skin?

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 3:57:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help me.
What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
seconds contact?)

cheers
alex
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 3:58:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help
me.
> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> seconds contact?)

If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 11:14:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Alex Hunsley wrote:
>
> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help me.
> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> seconds contact?)
>
> cheers
> alex

Buy yourself a soldering workstation with temp. controlled iron.

Switch it up to 500deg. C.

Hold the business end of the iron.

Switch it on.

When you drop it, take note of the temperature it has reached.


OdieAlex Hunsley wrote:
>
> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help me.
> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> seconds contact?)
>
> cheers
> alex

Alex Hunsley wrote:
>
> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help me.
> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> seconds contact?)
>
> cheers
> alex


--

RetroData
Data Recovery Experts
www.retrodata.co.uk
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Can't find your answer ? Ask !
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 1:57:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:57:59 +0100, Alex Hunsley <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote:
> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help me.
> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> seconds contact?)
>

If I remember correctly, the commercial max temperature spec of 85C was
chosen as a safe temperature for people so it probably gets painful in the
80-85C range.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 2:17:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
<ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
>news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help
>me.
>> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
>> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
>> seconds contact?)
>
>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
>for 30 seconds then it's too hot.

Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.

If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
hot...

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 2:17:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Marc de Vries wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
>>news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help
>>me.
>>> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
>>> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
>>> seconds contact?)
>>
>>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
>>for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>
> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>
> If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
> drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
> hot...

If the drive capsules are that hot there's something wrong with the cooling.
I've never encountered a drive that was too hot to touch in a purpose-built
server from any of the major players. 50C on the surface of the chips
maybe.

> Marc

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 5:48:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Marc de Vries wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
>>news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>
>>>Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help
>>
>>me.
>>
>>>What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
>>>needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
>>>seconds contact?)
>>
>>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
>>for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>
>
> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.

Interesting. A tech guy at my local computer shop said around 45 degrees C or
above gets uncomfortable to the skin...

>
> If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
> drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
> hot...
>
> Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 5:50:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:

> Marc de Vries wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
>><ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>>>
>>>>Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help
>>>
>>>me.
>>>
>>>>What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
>>>>needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
>>>>seconds contact?)
>>>
>>>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
>>>for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>>
>>Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
>>It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
>>temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
>>definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>>
>>If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
>>drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
>>hot...
>
>
> If the drive capsules are that hot there's something wrong with the cooling.
> I've never encountered a drive that was too hot to touch in a purpose-built
> server from any of the major players. 50C on the surface of the chips
> maybe.
>
>
>>Marc

I'm thinking of my MaxLine Plus II drive. The chip surfaces definitely get very
hot, but a lot of heat ends up on the other side of the drive and the sides of
the drive, making it very hot.

This drive has operating temperatures up to 55C. Now, does this means that any
temperature it gets to (of its own accord) that is <55 is ok, or could it still
be faulty? The disk just seems to get too hot. Reviews of this disk reveal that
it should get 20degrees above ambient temperature, but I'm pretty sure my disk
is getting hotter than that....

alex
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 7:02:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:57:59 +0100, Alex Hunsley
<lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote:

}What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
}needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
}seconds contact?)

For hot water to cause a burn (scald), it takes something like 130-135F
(54.4-57.2C).
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 8:01:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:48:34 +0100, Alex Hunsley
<lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote:

<snip>
>>>
>>>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
>>>for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>>
>>
>> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
>> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
>> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
>> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>
>Interesting. A tech guy at my local computer shop said around 45 degrees C or
>above gets uncomfortable to the skin...

Well, I don't know the exact temperature when it gets painful. So,
there is some margin of error in that 50 degrees. I just remember that
it is suprisingly close to your body temperature.

Probably because such temperatures are already pretty unhealthy for
the cells in your body. Proteins start to change at temperatures like
45 and 50 degrees. (some a bit lower some a bit higher)


Harddisk specifications state maximum ambient temperatures of 55
degrees. The HD itself will be warmer with ambient temperatures like
that.

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 8:01:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <tn48e0d5ao21blj27qvhod7ub0elql13md@4ax.com>,
Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:48:34 +0100, Alex Hunsley
><lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote:
><snip>
>>>>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it comfortably
>>>>for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>>>
>>> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
>>> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
>>> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
>>> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>>
>>Interesting. A tech guy at my local computer shop said around 45 degrees C or
>>above gets uncomfortable to the skin...
>
>Well, I don't know the exact temperature when it gets painful. So,
>there is some margin of error in that 50 degrees. I just remember that
>it is suprisingly close to your body temperature.
>
>Probably because such temperatures are already pretty unhealthy for
>the cells in your body. Proteins start to change at temperatures like
>45 and 50 degrees. (some a bit lower some a bit higher)

Decades ago we were told in 2nd year botany that the thermal death
point of plants is around 42C, so I guess it depends how evolved you
are. ;-)

From the Australian kidsafe site:
http://www.greenweb.com.au/kidsafe/html/controlling_hot...
<quoting>
Controlling Domestic Hot Water Temperatures
How Hot is TOO Hot?
60° C major burn in 1 second
55° C major burn in 10 seconds
50° C major burn in 5 minutes
</quoting>

>Harddisk specifications state maximum ambient temperatures of 55
>degrees. The HD itself will be warmer with ambient temperatures like
>that.

Interesting. The operating specs for both Dells of my personal
acquaintance (4100 and 4600) list the max operating ambient
temperature as 35C, so I guess something else must die before the HDD?


Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 8:01:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Phred wrote:

> Interesting. The operating specs for both Dells of my personal
> acquaintance (4100 and 4600) list the max operating ambient
> temperature as 35C, so I guess something else must die before the HDD?
>

No. 35C ambient plus the temperature rise between external air and
internal air means the HD internals and the CPU may be pushing 55C.

Good case design should have enough air flow to minimize the rise in
temp, but Dell -- like all commodity PC vendors -- is more likely to
minimize cost than temp.rise.
--
Cheers, Bob
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 8:01:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Phred wrote:

> In article <tn48e0d5ao21blj27qvhod7ub0elql13md@4ax.com>,
> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:48:34 +0100, Alex Hunsley
>><lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote:
>><snip>
>>>>>If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it
>>>>>comfortably for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
>>>> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
>>>> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
>>>> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>>>
>>>Interesting. A tech guy at my local computer shop said around 45 degrees
>>>C or above gets uncomfortable to the skin...
>>
>>Well, I don't know the exact temperature when it gets painful. So,
>>there is some margin of error in that 50 degrees. I just remember that
>>it is suprisingly close to your body temperature.
>>
>>Probably because such temperatures are already pretty unhealthy for
>>the cells in your body. Proteins start to change at temperatures like
>>45 and 50 degrees. (some a bit lower some a bit higher)
>
> Decades ago we were told in 2nd year botany that the thermal death
> point of plants is around 42C, so I guess it depends how evolved you
> are. ;-)
>
> From the Australian kidsafe site:
> http://www.greenweb.com.au/kidsafe/html/controlling_hot...
> <quoting>
> Controlling Domestic Hot Water Temperatures
> How Hot is TOO Hot?
> 60° C major burn in 1 second
> 55° C major burn in 10 seconds
> 50° C major burn in 5 minutes
> </quoting>
>
>>Harddisk specifications state maximum ambient temperatures of 55
>>degrees. The HD itself will be warmer with ambient temperatures like
>>that.
>
> Interesting. The operating specs for both Dells of my personal
> acquaintance (4100 and 4600) list the max operating ambient
> temperature as 35C, so I guess something else must die before the HDD?

FWIW, the Seagate Cheetah 15K spec says that the maximum air temperature is
55C, but to achieve the specified MTBF the temperature of the drive casing
should not exceed 50C, with 60 allowable for very short periods.

Any competent engineer puts in some margin above and beyond the
manufacturer's rating, so as a matter of good practice those drives should
be kept at a lower temperature if possible. If you go for 20% margin that
puts you down to 40C, 3 degrees above body temperature.

The "keep your hand on it" test is a rule of thumb--a baker is going to be
able to keep his finger on something a bit hotter than most people for
example.
>
>
> Cheers, Phred.
>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 8:01:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cc1jfq0a1j@news2.newsguy.com...
>
> FWIW, the Seagate Cheetah 15K spec says that the maximum air temperature is
> 55C, but to achieve the specified MTBF the temperature of the drive casing
> should not exceed 50C, with 60 allowable for very short periods.
>
The Fuji MAN manual gives operating life at average temperatures:
<40C 5 years
<45C 4.5 years
<50C 4 years
<55C 3.5 years

> Any competent engineer puts in some margin above and beyond the
> manufacturer's rating, so as a matter of good practice those drives should
> be kept at a lower temperature if possible. If you go for 20% margin that
> puts you down to 40C, 3 degrees above body temperature.
>
> The "keep your hand on it" test is a rule of thumb--a baker is going to be
> able to keep his finger on something a bit hotter than most people for
> example.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 11:40:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:uoh7e0hs3sq6so1o1lt6ors7gcrpqvbv6j@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
> >news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may
help
> >me.
> >> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> >> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> >> seconds contact?)
> >
> >If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it
comfortably
> >for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>
> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.

That's flat FALSE. 50 C will certainly diminish the life of a HD. Keep em
40 C or cooler for longest life.

> If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
> drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
> hot...

You are just wrong!
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 1, 2004 11:40:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Mike Ching" <mtching@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40e4265e$1_3@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:57:59 +0100, Alex Hunsley
<lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote:
> > Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may help
me.
> > What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
> > needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
> > seconds contact?)
> >
>
> If I remember correctly, the commercial max temperature spec of 85C was
> chosen as a safe temperature for people so it probably gets painful in the
> 80-85C range.

Just NO!
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 2, 2004 1:41:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:26 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
<ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
>news:uoh7e0hs3sq6so1o1lt6ors7gcrpqvbv6j@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
>> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> >> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may
>help
>> >me.
>> >> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface) is
>> >> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after about 5
>> >> seconds contact?)
>> >
>> >If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it
>comfortably
>> >for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>>
>> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
>> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
>> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
>> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>
>That's flat FALSE.

Care to supply proof?

> 50 C will certainly diminish the life of a HD. Keep em
>40 C or cooler for longest life.

Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!

>> If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
>> drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
>> hot...
>
>You are just wrong!

You are ignoring the official harddisk specs and are not supplying any
proof of your beliefs.
Unless you change that I see very little crediblity in your
statements.

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 2, 2004 5:19:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
[snip]
>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!

Something is clearly wrong here. There's hardly anywhere on Earth
outside an oven where the ambient air temperature reaches 55C.
(Or is that "55 degrees" meant to be 55F? -- I guess that would
explain it! :) 


Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 2, 2004 5:20:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Phred wrote:

> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
> [snip]
>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>
> Something is clearly wrong here. There's hardly anywhere on Earth
> outside an oven where the ambient air temperature reaches 55C.
> (Or is that "55 degrees" meant to be 55F? -- I guess that would
> explain it! :) 

That's not actually an "ambient temperature", its the temperature of the air
flowing over the disk, which air might have been circulating around inside
a computer for a bit.

> Cheers, Phred.
>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 3, 2004 12:31:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:D 84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:26 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> >news:uoh7e0hs3sq6so1o1lt6ors7gcrpqvbv6j@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> >> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
> >> >news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >> >> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may
> >help
> >> >me.
> >> >> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface)
is
> >> >> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after
about 5
> >> >> seconds contact?)
> >> >
> >> >If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it
> >comfortably
> >> >for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
> >>
> >> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
> >> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
> >> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
> >> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
> >
> >That's flat FALSE.
>
> Care to supply proof?

Anybody who reads the thread can see that for themselves.

> > 50 C will certainly diminish the life of a HD. Keep em
> >40 C or cooler for longest life.
>
> Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!

No, you simply can't read HD specs.

> >> If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
> >> drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
> >> hot...
> >
> >You are just wrong!
>
> You are ignoring the official harddisk specs and are not supplying any
> proof of your beliefs.
> Unless you change that I see very little crediblity in your
> statements.

Clueless.
See:
The Seagate 10K6 technical spec
http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/enterpris...
"Operating Temperature (max) 55 deg C"

Now that's the case(casting) temperature and nothing about ambient as most
all HD mfgs specs show.
That's the drop dead case temp.

Run a drive at 40C case(casting) temp or less for max life.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 3, 2004 12:33:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cc3ppb0oe9@news1.newsguy.com...
> Phred wrote:
>
> > In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> > Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
> > [snip]
> >>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> >>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
> >
> > Something is clearly wrong here. There's hardly anywhere on Earth
> > outside an oven where the ambient air temperature reaches 55C.
> > (Or is that "55 degrees" meant to be 55F? -- I guess that would
> > explain it! :) 
>
> That's not actually an "ambient temperature", its the temperature of the
air
> flowing over the disk, which air might have been circulating around inside
> a computer for a bit.

It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec is the max
case(casting) temp.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 3, 2004 10:39:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:

>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!

> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
> is the max case(casting) temp.

The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
the 55C maximum casting temp?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 3, 2004 11:24:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

larrymoencurly wrote:

> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>
>> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>> is the max case(casting) temp.
>
> The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
> ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
> that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
> the 55C maximum casting temp?

Actually, there are several temperatures given in the docs.

Taking the "Cheetah 15k.3 SCSI Disk Drive ST373453LW/LC ST336753LW/LC
ST318453LW/LC Product Manual"
<http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/100148...; as an
example, on page 42 they state: "Cabinet cooling must be designed by the
customer so that the ambient temperature immediately surrounding the drive
will not exceed temperature conditions specified in Section 6.4.1,
'Temperature.'"

Sectin 6.4.1 states "With cooling designed to maintain the case
temperatures, the drive meets all specifications over a 41F to
131F (5C to 55C) drive ambient temperature range with a maximum temperature
gradient of 36F (20C) per hour." but then they go on to say "The MTBF
specification for the drive is based on operating in an environment that
ensures that the case temperatures are not exceeded. Occasional excursions
to drive ambient temperatures of 122°F (50°C) or 41°F (5°C) may occur
without impact to specified MTBF."

Then finally they get to the allowable temperature for the drive itself:
"The maximum allowable continuous or sustained HDA case temperature for the
rated MTBF is 122F (50C)." Then they modify that with "The maximum
allowable HDA case temperature is 60C. Operation of the drive at the
maximum case temperature is intended for short time periods only."

And they have a diagram "HDA Temperature Check Point" which shows that the
temperature is to be measured on the metal capsule just above the connector
and two inches from the left edge of the drive viewed from the end with the
connector and oriented with the circuit board down.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 4, 2004 12:21:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:755e968a.0407030539.6c25f12a@posting.google.com...
> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> >> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> >> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
> >>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> >>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>
> > It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
> > is the max case(casting) temp.
>
> The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
> ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
> that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
> the 55C maximum casting temp?

YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down to 40C or
less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 4, 2004 6:59:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<vzEFc.56267$OB3.9697@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>
>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>
> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
> is the max case(casting) temp.
>
> > The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C
> > in 25C ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C
> > hotter, doesn't that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C
> > inside them and exceed the 55C maximum casting temp?
>
> YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down
> to 40C or less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
> fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
> In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.

According to www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm , for
Hitachi's DK250 series ATA and SATA drives:

"Environmental characteristics
Operating
Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C"

So what do you mean HD manufacturers don't use the word "ambient"? On
that web page they don't even mention the temperature of the metal
casting.

Aren't you also the person who suggested that hard drives could be
made quieter by running their heads in a vacuum? How do you keep the
heads super-close to the platters that way without crashes?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 4, 2004 12:06:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

larrymoencurly wrote:

> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<vzEFc.56267$OB3.9697@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>>
>> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>> is the max case(casting) temp.
>>
>> > The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C
>> > in 25C ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C
>> > hotter, doesn't that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C
>> > inside them and exceed the 55C maximum casting temp?
>>
>> YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down
>> to 40C or less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
>> fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
>> In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.
>
> According to www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm , for
> Hitachi's DK250 series ATA and SATA drives:
>
> "Environmental characteristics
> Operating
> Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C"
>
> So what do you mean HD manufacturers don't use the word "ambient"? On
> that web page they don't even mention the temperature of the metal
> casting.

You need to get the full spec,
<http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/173...;,
which says in section 6.2.1 "The system is responsible for providing
sufficient ventilation to maintain a surface temperature below 60°C at the
center of the top cover of the drive." Beyond that they have a maximum
wet-bulb ambient of 29.4C listed, with a chart showing how that corresponds
to the dry bulb temperature at various humidity levels. The humidity in my
house at the moment is 43 percent so according to their chart I would want
to keep the ambient temperature of the air flowing around the drive at
about 40C. If the humidity goes up to 90% then the ambient has to be below
31C.

> Aren't you also the person who suggested that hard drives could be
> made quieter by running their heads in a vacuum? How do you keep the
> heads super-close to the platters that way without crashes?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 4, 2004 10:38:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:755e968a.0407040159.6520fe0a@posting.google.com...
> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<vzEFc.56267$OB3.9697@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> >>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> >>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >
> >>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> >>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
> >
> > It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
> > is the max case(casting) temp.
> >
> > > The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C
> > > in 25C ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C
> > > hotter, doesn't that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C
> > > inside them and exceed the 55C maximum casting temp?
> >
> > YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down
> > to 40C or less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
> > fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
> > In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.
>
> According to www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm , for
> Hitachi's DK250 series ATA and SATA drives:
>
> "Environmental characteristics
> Operating
> Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C"
>
> So what do you mean HD manufacturers don't use the word "ambient"? On
> that web page they don't even mention the temperature of the metal
> casting.

Clueless. Here's some real specs:
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/E8C...$file/d7k250P_sp.pdf
"
6.4.3 Start/stop cycles

The drive withstands a minimum of 50,000 start/stop cycles in a 40° C
environment and a minimum of 10,000

start/stop cycles in extreme temperature or humidity within the operating
range. See Table 20: "Temperature and

humidity" on page 28 and Figure 5: "Limits of temperature and humidity" on
page 28.

"
>
> Aren't you also the person who suggested that hard drives could be
> made quieter by running their heads in a vacuum?

Yep and there's always a gullible slow learner in every NG:
"From: Ron Reaugh (ron-reaugh@att.net)
Subject: Re: How do they make hard drives spin quieter? (other than use
fluid bearings)



Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
Date: 2004-05-12 13:19:52 PST

Evacuate all the air/gas from the case hi-vac and that makes the heads fly
much closer to the surface too. A vacuum wont transmit sound. The allows
for using new optical-acoustic techniques to read the data as the heads see
and feel the data."From my next post in the same thread cretin:"I still like
the part about the new head design where it "sees" the sparks
and "feels" the bumps<VBG>."> How do you keep the> heads super-close to the
platters that way without crashes?Dark energy!
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 4, 2004 11:05:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:c8YFc.59481$OB3.52313@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:755e968a.0407040159.6520fe0a@posting.google.com...
> > "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<vzEFc.56267$OB3.9697@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >
> > >>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> > >>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > >>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> > >>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
> > >
> > > It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
> > > is the max case(casting) temp.
> > >
> > > > The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C
> > > > in 25C ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C
> > > > hotter, doesn't that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C
> > > > inside them and exceed the 55C maximum casting temp?
> > >
> > > YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down
> > > to 40C or less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
> > > fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
> > > In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.
> >
> > According to www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm , for
> > Hitachi's DK250 series ATA and SATA drives:
> >
> > "Environmental characteristics
> > Operating
> > Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C"
> >
> > So what do you mean HD manufacturers don't use the word "ambient"? On
> > that web page they don't even mention the temperature of the metal
> > casting.
>
> Clueless. Here's some real specs:
>
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/E8C...$file/d7k250P_sp.pdf
> "
> 6.4.3 Start/stop cycles
>
> The drive withstands a minimum of 50,000 start/stop cycles in a 40° C
> environment and a minimum of 10,000
>
> start/stop cycles in extreme temperature or humidity within the operating
> range. See Table 20: "Temperature and
>
> humidity" on page 28 and Figure 5: "Limits of temperature and humidity" on
> page 28.
>
> "
> >
> > Aren't you also the person who suggested that hard drives could be
> > made quieter by running their heads in a vacuum?
>
> Yep and there's always a gullible slow learner in every NG:
> "From: Ron Reaugh (ron-reaugh@att.net)
> Subject: Re: How do they make hard drives spin quieter? (other than use
> fluid bearings)
>
>
>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
> Date: 2004-05-12 13:19:52 PST
>
> Evacuate all the air/gas from the case hi-vac and that makes the heads fly
> much closer to the surface too. A vacuum wont transmit sound. The allows
> for using new optical-acoustic techniques to read the data as the heads
see
> and feel the data.

>"From my next post in the same thread cretin:
>"I still like the part about the new head design where it "sees" the sparks
> and "feels" the bumps<VBG>."

>> How do you keep the heads super-close to the
>> platters that way without crashes?

>Dark energy!
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 2:52:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:33:06 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
<ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>news:cc3ppb0oe9@news1.newsguy.com...
>> Phred wrote:
>>
>> > In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>> > Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>> > [snip]
>> >>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>> >>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>> >
>> > Something is clearly wrong here. There's hardly anywhere on Earth
>> > outside an oven where the ambient air temperature reaches 55C.
>> > (Or is that "55 degrees" meant to be 55F? -- I guess that would
>> > explain it! :) 
>>
>> That's not actually an "ambient temperature", its the temperature of the
>air
>> flowing over the disk, which air might have been circulating around inside
>> a computer for a bit.
>
>It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec is the max
>case(casting) temp.

Next time you bother to reply, first check the facts:
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm

Environmental characteristics
Operating
Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C

Maxtor doesn't lit the word ambient, but lists the same figures also
under the header "Environmental characteristics".
http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation...
"Environmental characteristics" clearly doesn't point to the HD case
itself. Unless you want to explain the humidity of a HD case.

But as usual you will probably ignore the specifications the HD
manufacturers give themselves.

And for J. Clarke it proves that we are indeed talking about 55
degrees Celsius. (Which is not all that difficult to reach in a
computer case in which the harddisk resides)

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 3:00:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:38:01 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
<ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>"larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:755e968a.0407040159.6520fe0a@posting.google.com...
>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:<vzEFc.56267$OB3.9697@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>
>> >>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>> >>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>> >>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>> >
>> > It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>> > is the max case(casting) temp.
>> >
>> > > The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C
>> > > in 25C ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C
>> > > hotter, doesn't that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C
>> > > inside them and exceed the 55C maximum casting temp?
>> >
>> > YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down
>> > to 40C or less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
>> > fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
>> > In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.
>>
>> According to www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm , for
>> Hitachi's DK250 series ATA and SATA drives:
>>
>> "Environmental characteristics
>> Operating
>> Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C"
>>
>> So what do you mean HD manufacturers don't use the word "ambient"? On
>> that web page they don't even mention the temperature of the metal
>> casting.
>
>Clueless.

Do you want to claim that the above specs are "not real"
The Hitachi website has some pages with real specs and some with fake
specs?
You'd better inform them that they have fake specs on their site. I
bet they will be forever grateful to you for pointing that out to
them!

> Here's some real specs:
>http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/E8C...$file/d7k250P_sp.pdf
>"
>6.4.3 Start/stop cycles
>
>The drive withstands a minimum of 50,000 start/stop cycles in a 40° C
>environment and a minimum of 10,000

Talk about clueless.
These numbers don't say anything about the maximum temperature the
drive can work in. It just tells you that the number of 50.000
start/stop cycles applies to a situation where there is a 40 degree
environment.
With other temperatures the minimum start/stop cycles figure can be
different, so you can't make claims against them when it doesn't reach
50.00 start/stop cycles in a 50 degree environment (Standard procedure
for all these tests)

>start/stop cycles in extreme temperature or humidity within the operating
>range. See Table 20: "Temperature and
>
>humidity" on page 28 and Figure 5: "Limits of temperature and humidity" on
>page 28.
>
>"
>>
>> Aren't you also the person who suggested that hard drives could be
>> made quieter by running their heads in a vacuum?
>
>Yep and there's always a gullible slow learner in every NG:

We already know that you are. You don't have to keep proving it to us
again and again and again.

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 4:27:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:24:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>larrymoencurly wrote:
>
>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>
>>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>>
>>> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>>> is the max case(casting) temp.
>>
>> The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
>> ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
>> that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
>> the 55C maximum casting temp?
>
>Actually, there are several temperatures given in the docs.
>
>Taking the "Cheetah 15k.3 SCSI Disk Drive ST373453LW/LC ST336753LW/LC
>ST318453LW/LC Product Manual"
><http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/100148...; as an
>example, on page 42 they state: "Cabinet cooling must be designed by the
>customer so that the ambient temperature immediately surrounding the drive
>will not exceed temperature conditions specified in Section 6.4.1,
>'Temperature.'"
>
>Sectin 6.4.1 states "With cooling designed to maintain the case
>temperatures, the drive meets all specifications over a 41F to
>131F (5C to 55C) drive ambient temperature range with a maximum temperature
>gradient of 36F (20C) per hour." but then they go on to say "The MTBF
>specification for the drive is based on operating in an environment that
>ensures that the case temperatures are not exceeded. Occasional excursions
>to drive ambient temperatures of 122°F (50°C) or 41°F (5°C) may occur
>without impact to specified MTBF."

There is a difference between the max temperature a drive can
withstand and the value at which MTBF is influenced.

>Then finally they get to the allowable temperature for the drive itself:
>"The maximum allowable continuous or sustained HDA case temperature for the
>rated MTBF is 122F (50C)." Then they modify that with "The maximum
>allowable HDA case temperature is 60C. Operation of the drive at the
>maximum case temperature is intended for short time periods only."

Actually it is not a modification.
sustained max HDA case temperature is 50 C and for short periods it
can withstand 60 C.
That applies to most devices.

>And they have a diagram "HDA Temperature Check Point" which shows that the
>temperature is to be measured on the metal capsule just above the connector
>and two inches from the left edge of the drive viewed from the end with the
>connector and oriented with the circuit board down.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 4:27:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:31:13 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
<ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>
>"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
>news:D 84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:26 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
>> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
>> >news:uoh7e0hs3sq6so1o1lt6ors7gcrpqvbv6j@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:02:31 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
>> >> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Alex Hunsley" <lard@tardis.ed.ac.molar.uk> wrote in message
>> >> >news:jzHEc.15620$a37.401@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> >> >> Slightly odd question.. but in absence of a real themometer, it may
>> >help
>> >> >me.
>> >> >> What sort of temperature of metal (i.e. a hard disk outer surface)
>is
>> >> >> needed for contsant contact with the skin to be painful? (after
>about 5
>> >> >> seconds contact?)
>> >> >
>> >> >If a HD is hot enough such that you can't hold your hand on it
>> >comfortably
>> >> >for 30 seconds then it's too hot.
>> >>
>> >> Do you have any idea what temperature is too hot to hold your hand on?
>> >> It's suprisingly low. You only have to a get a few degrees above body
>> >> temperature for metal to be uncomfortable hot. 50 degrees is
>> >> definitely unpleasant, but it won't kill a harddisk.
>> >
>> >That's flat FALSE.
>>
>> Care to supply proof?
>
>Anybody who reads the thread can see that for themselves.

Since there wasn't any proof in the thread at that time, there wasn't
anything to see for anybody.

>> > 50 C will certainly diminish the life of a HD. Keep em
>> >40 C or cooler for longest life.
>>
>> Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>> tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>
>No, you simply can't read HD specs.

I've already proven that YOU cannot read them.
Hitachi and Seagate literally state: Ambient temperature.

>> >> If we use your definition, it would mean that lots and lots of scsi
>> >> drives that have been working fine for many years in servers are too
>> >> hot...
>> >
>> >You are just wrong!
>>
>> You are ignoring the official harddisk specs and are not supplying any
>> proof of your beliefs.
>> Unless you change that I see very little crediblity in your
>> statements.
>
>Clueless.

You are the one who is clueless, and I will once again proof it:

>See:
>The Seagate 10K6 technical spec
>http://www.seagate.com/cda/products/discsales/enterpris...
>"Operating Temperature (max) 55 deg C"
>
>Now that's the case(casting) temperature and nothing about ambient as most
>all HD mfgs specs show.
>That's the drop dead case temp.

WRONG.
More detailed specs from the same drive:
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/100195...

Section 6.4.1:
With cooling designed to maintain the case temperatures, the drive
meets all specifications over a 41 F to 131 F (5C to 55C) drive
AMBIENT TEMPERATURE range with a maximum temperature gradient of 36F
(20C)

The rest of the section also clearly proof without any doubt that they
are talking about the ambient temperature and certainly not about the
case temperature of the HD itself. (J. Clarke also found this in the
specs of the 15K drive)

>Run a drive at 40C case(casting) temp or less for max life.

Again wrong.

From the same section:
The maximum allowable continous or sustained HDA case temperature for
the rated MTBF is 122F (50C)

Hard facts keeping proving you wrong.

Nevertheless it can never hurt to keep temperatures down. And usually
a simple extra fan will be enough to keep temperatures at a lower
level.

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 11:14:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:185ie0h3dme1p5otajb38h3d1ncs7hdmq1@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:33:06 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:cc3ppb0oe9@news1.newsguy.com...
> >> Phred wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> >> > Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >> > [snip]
> >> >>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> >> >>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
> >> >
> >> > Something is clearly wrong here. There's hardly anywhere on Earth
> >> > outside an oven where the ambient air temperature reaches 55C.
> >> > (Or is that "55 degrees" meant to be 55F? -- I guess that would
> >> > explain it! :) 
> >>
> >> That's not actually an "ambient temperature", its the temperature of
the
> >air
> >> flowing over the disk, which air might have been circulating around
inside
> >> a computer for a bit.
> >
> >It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec is the max
> >case(casting) temp.
>
> Next time you bother to reply, first check the facts:
> http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm

Clueless.

All the detailed specs get back to drive case temperature as numerous posts
in this thread prove. Keep that case/casting temperature <=40C for max
drive life.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 11:17:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

The wacko impeaches himself again.

"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 11:19:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:p 76ie0phvrm7egkn426gkgtavam0ltkvo0@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:24:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
> >larrymoencurly wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> >> news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> >>
> >>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
> >>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
> >>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
> >>
> >>> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
> >>> is the max case(casting) temp.
> >>
> >> The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
> >> ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
> >> that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
> >> the 55C maximum casting temp?
> >
> >Actually, there are several temperatures given in the docs.
> >
> >Taking the "Cheetah 15k.3 SCSI Disk Drive ST373453LW/LC ST336753LW/LC
> >ST318453LW/LC Product Manual"
> ><http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/100148...; as an
> >example, on page 42 they state: "Cabinet cooling must be designed by the
> >customer so that the ambient temperature immediately surrounding the
drive
> >will not exceed temperature conditions specified in Section 6.4.1,
> >'Temperature.'"
> >
> >Sectin 6.4.1 states "With cooling designed to maintain the case
> >temperatures, the drive meets all specifications over a 41F to
> >131F (5C to 55C) drive ambient temperature range with a maximum
temperature
> >gradient of 36F (20C) per hour." but then they go on to say "The MTBF
> >specification for the drive is based on operating in an environment that
> >ensures that the case temperatures are not exceeded. Occasional
excursions
> >to drive ambient temperatures of 122°F (50°C) or 41°F (5°C) may occur
> >without impact to specified MTBF."
>
> There is a difference between the max temperature a drive can
> withstand and the value at which MTBF is influenced.

Any idiot who has been reading the thread already knows that.

Keep the case temperature of a HD at 40C or less for max life.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 11:20:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

This guy doesn't have a clue about HDs and engineering.

"Marc de Vries" <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 11:48:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Marc de Vries wrote:

> On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:24:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>larrymoencurly wrote:
>>
>>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>
>>>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>>>
>>>> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>>>> is the max case(casting) temp.
>>>
>>> The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
>>> ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
>>> that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
>>> the 55C maximum casting temp?
>>
>>Actually, there are several temperatures given in the docs.
>>
>>Taking the "Cheetah 15k.3 SCSI Disk Drive ST373453LW/LC ST336753LW/LC
>>ST318453LW/LC Product Manual"
>><http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/100148...; as an
>>example, on page 42 they state: "Cabinet cooling must be designed by the
>>customer so that the ambient temperature immediately surrounding the drive
>>will not exceed temperature conditions specified in Section 6.4.1,
>>'Temperature.'"
>>
>>Sectin 6.4.1 states "With cooling designed to maintain the case
>>temperatures, the drive meets all specifications over a 41F to
>>131F (5C to 55C) drive ambient temperature range with a maximum
>>temperature
>>gradient of 36F (20C) per hour." but then they go on to say "The MTBF
>>specification for the drive is based on operating in an environment that
>>ensures that the case temperatures are not exceeded. Occasional excursions
>>to drive ambient temperatures of 122°F (50°C) or 41°F (5°C) may occur
>>without impact to specified MTBF."
>
> There is a difference between the max temperature a drive can
> withstand and the value at which MTBF is influenced.

If you object to Seagate's statement then don't tell me, tell Seagate. In
any case, they got to that.

>>Then finally they get to the allowable temperature for the drive itself:
>>"The maximum allowable continuous or sustained HDA case temperature for
>>the
>>rated MTBF is 122F (50C)." Then they modify that with "The maximum
>>allowable HDA case temperature is 60C. Operation of the drive at the
>>maximum case temperature is intended for short time periods only."
>
> Actually it is not a modification.
> sustained max HDA case temperature is 50 C and for short periods it
> can withstand 60 C.
> That applies to most devices.

You're quibbling over a word here. What word would you use to describe a
statement which provides additional information to that provided by a
previous statement?

>>And they have a diagram "HDA Temperature Check Point" which shows that the
>>temperature is to be measured on the metal capsule just above the
>>connector and two inches from the left edge of the drive viewed from the
>>end with the connector and oriented with the circuit board down.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2004 11:51:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Marc, just a hint. Review Ron's posting history and you may come to the
conclusion that he's a 'bot that at random intervals responds to posts by
randomly interjecting "clueless" into them. Arguing with Ron is like
trying to teach a pig to sing--it wastes your time and annoys the pig.


Marc de Vries wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:38:01 GMT, "Ron Reaugh"
> <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"larrymoencurly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>news:755e968a.0407040159.6520fe0a@posting.google.com...
>>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>news:<vzEFc.56267$OB3.9697@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>
>>> >>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>> >>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>> >>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>>> >
>>> > It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>>> > is the max case(casting) temp.
>>> >
>>> > > The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C
>>> > > in 25C ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C
>>> > > hotter, doesn't that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C
>>> > > inside them and exceed the 55C maximum casting temp?
>>> >
>>> > YES, so how does one get the casting in 25C ambient air down
>>> > to 40C or less...import a hurricane...give it a blow job...buy a
>>> > fan/drive-cooler...DUH!
>>> > In 35C ambient air then get MORE BIGGER fans.
>>>
>>> According to www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/d7k250/d7k250.htm , for
>>> Hitachi's DK250 series ATA and SATA drives:
>>>
>>> "Environmental characteristics
>>> Operating
>>> Ambient temperature 5° to 55° C 5° to 55° C"
>>>
>>> So what do you mean HD manufacturers don't use the word "ambient"? On
>>> that web page they don't even mention the temperature of the metal
>>> casting.
>>
>>Clueless.
>
> Do you want to claim that the above specs are "not real"
> The Hitachi website has some pages with real specs and some with fake
> specs?
> You'd better inform them that they have fake specs on their site. I
> bet they will be forever grateful to you for pointing that out to
> them!
>
>> Here's some real specs:
>>http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/E8C...$file/d7k250P_sp.pdf
>>"
>>6.4.3 Start/stop cycles
>>
>>The drive withstands a minimum of 50,000 start/stop cycles in a 40° C
>>environment and a minimum of 10,000
>
> Talk about clueless.
> These numbers don't say anything about the maximum temperature the
> drive can work in. It just tells you that the number of 50.000
> start/stop cycles applies to a situation where there is a 40 degree
> environment.
> With other temperatures the minimum start/stop cycles figure can be
> different, so you can't make claims against them when it doesn't reach
> 50.00 start/stop cycles in a 50 degree environment (Standard procedure
> for all these tests)
>
>>start/stop cycles in extreme temperature or humidity within the operating
>>range. See Table 20: "Temperature and
>>
>>humidity" on page 28 and Figure 5: "Limits of temperature and humidity" on
>>page 28.
>>
>>"
>>>
>>> Aren't you also the person who suggested that hard drives could be
>>> made quieter by running their heads in a vacuum?
>>
>>Yep and there's always a gullible slow learner in every NG:
>
> We already know that you are. You don't have to keep proving it to us
> again and again and again.
>
> Marc

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 6, 2004 4:41:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"IBM Ronnie Retard" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>The wacko impeaches himself again.

Good to see you finally admit it, Ron.

Say, Ron, did you ever change you mind about the quality of the last
few generations of IBM harddrive? As I recall, you were quite adamant
in your defense of IBM's quality.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 6, 2004 4:45:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>This guy doesn't have a clue about HDs and engineering.

We know you don't, Rod^Hn.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 6, 2004 6:26:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<gShGc.62936$OB3.41688@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> This guy doesn't have a clue about HDs and engineering.

Do you?

He proved you wrong, more than once, when you said HD makers didn't say "ambient."
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 6, 2004 10:05:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

do_not_spam_me wrote:

> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<gShGc.62936$OB3.41688@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>> This guy doesn't have a clue about HDs and engineering.
>
> Do you?
>
> He proved you wrong, more than once, when you said HD makers didn't say
> "ambient."

I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a clue about
HDs and engineering.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2004 12:29:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:48:40 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>Marc de Vries wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 19:24:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>larrymoencurly wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:<6EjFc.179490$Gx4.12140@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>>
>>>>>> In article <d84ae0dminu4ube0qn8jm1s9j6rdol3d7u@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Most harddisk specs list 55 degrees as ambient temperatures. Please
>>>>>>tell the HD manufacturers that they are wrong!
>>>>
>>>>> It's neither and HD mfgs don't use the word ambient. The spec
>>>>> is the max case(casting) temp.
>>>>
>>>> The 7200 RPM HDs I measured with a thermometer ran at 50-53C in 25C
>>>> ambient air, and because many case interiors are 10C hotter, doesn't
>>>> that mean that those HDs would run at 60-63C inside them and exceed
>>>> the 55C maximum casting temp?
>>>
>>>Actually, there are several temperatures given in the docs.
>>>
>>>Taking the "Cheetah 15k.3 SCSI Disk Drive ST373453LW/LC ST336753LW/LC
>>>ST318453LW/LC Product Manual"
>>><http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/100148...; as an
>>>example, on page 42 they state: "Cabinet cooling must be designed by the
>>>customer so that the ambient temperature immediately surrounding the drive
>>>will not exceed temperature conditions specified in Section 6.4.1,
>>>'Temperature.'"
>>>
>>>Sectin 6.4.1 states "With cooling designed to maintain the case
>>>temperatures, the drive meets all specifications over a 41F to
>>>131F (5C to 55C) drive ambient temperature range with a maximum
>>>temperature
>>>gradient of 36F (20C) per hour." but then they go on to say "The MTBF
>>>specification for the drive is based on operating in an environment that
>>>ensures that the case temperatures are not exceeded. Occasional excursions
>>>to drive ambient temperatures of 122°F (50°C) or 41°F (5°C) may occur
>>>without impact to specified MTBF."
>>
>> There is a difference between the max temperature a drive can
>> withstand and the value at which MTBF is influenced.
>
>If you object to Seagate's statement then don't tell me, tell Seagate. In
>any case, they got to that.

No, I don't object to it. It just wasn't clear to me that you didn't
either.

>>>Then finally they get to the allowable temperature for the drive itself:
>>>"The maximum allowable continuous or sustained HDA case temperature for
>>>the
>>>rated MTBF is 122F (50C)." Then they modify that with "The maximum
>>>allowable HDA case temperature is 60C. Operation of the drive at the
>>>maximum case temperature is intended for short time periods only."
>>
>> Actually it is not a modification.
>> sustained max HDA case temperature is 50 C and for short periods it
>> can withstand 60 C.
>> That applies to most devices.
>
>You're quibbling over a word here. What word would you use to describe a
>statement which provides additional information to that provided by a
>previous statement?

Ah, I misunderstood you then.
I thought you meant that Seagate retracted/changed their statement.

English is not my native language, so I wouldn't want to tell anybody
what words they would need to use. Modify is a correct term, but it
can be misunderstood. I had to think a while for a better word, but I
guess If you had used "Then they add to that.." there wouldn't have
been any confusion.

Not that it is important, since it seems we agree on the real issue
discussed here.

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2004 12:32:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>do_not_spam_me wrote:
>
>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>> news:<gShGc.62936$OB3.41688@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>
>>> This guy doesn't have a clue about HDs and engineering.
>>
>> Do you?
>>
>> He proved you wrong, more than once, when you said HD makers didn't say
>> "ambient."
>
>I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a clue about
>HDs and engineering.

Should I be ashamed when the name Al Shugart doesn't ring a bell?

Marc
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2004 12:32:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Marc de Vries wrote:

> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>do_not_spam_me wrote:
>>
>>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>> news:<gShGc.62936$OB3.41688@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>>
>>>> This guy doesn't have a clue about HDs and engineering.
>>>
>>> Do you?
>>>
>>> He proved you wrong, more than once, when you said HD makers didn't say
>>> "ambient."
>>
>>I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a clue about
>>HDs and engineering.
>
> Should I be ashamed when the name Al Shugart doesn't ring a bell?

He's the guy who invented the modern hard disk at IBM, founded Seagate, and
created the interface once known as "SASI" (Shugart Associates Systems
Interface) and now known as "SCSI", among other things. Google him and
you'll get a large number of hits (appearently there are some other "Al
Shugart"s around as well, so don't let that confuse you).
>
> Marc

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2004 8:13:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message news:<p56ne05ea5bs4dh03kmbe79aml2r487sjh@4ax.com>...
> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> >I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a
> >clue about HDs and engineering.
>
> Should I be ashamed when the name Al Shugart doesn't ring a bell?

When IBM was trying to invent the disk drive back in the 1950s at
their San Jose facility, Alan Shugart was the chief engineer of the
project. He later formed a company called Shugart Associates that
built floppy disk drives and I believe also hard drives. I once saw
one of those hard drives at a surplus outlet, and I believe it had a
capacity of 14MB and a disk of maybe 8-12" in diameter, housed in
clear plastic. He then left that firm to form Shugart Technology but
had to change the name because Shugart Associates threatened a
lawsuit, so he changed it to Seagate Technology.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2004 11:35:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

do_not_spam_me wrote:

> Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:<p56ne05ea5bs4dh03kmbe79aml2r487sjh@4ax.com>...
>> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> >I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a
>> >clue about HDs and engineering.
>>
>> Should I be ashamed when the name Al Shugart doesn't ring a bell?
>
> When IBM was trying to invent the disk drive back in the 1950s at
> their San Jose facility, Alan Shugart was the chief engineer of the
> project. He later formed a company called Shugart Associates that
> built floppy disk drives and I believe also hard drives. I once saw
> one of those hard drives at a surplus outlet, and I believe it had a
> capacity of 14MB and a disk of maybe 8-12" in diameter, housed in
> clear plastic.

I had one of those in my classroom for years--was a great show-and-tell
because of the clear case and because the mechanism was big enough to see
from the back of the room. When I left that job I debated taking it home
and decided not to. Now I kind of miss having it around.

> He then left that firm to form Shugart Technology but
> had to change the name because Shugart Associates threatened a
> lawsuit, so he changed it to Seagate Technology.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 9, 2004 11:03:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" wrote:
>
> do_not_spam_me wrote:
>
> > Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> > news:<p56ne05ea5bs4dh03kmbe79aml2r487sjh@4ax.com>...
> >> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400, "J. Clarke"
> >> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> >I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a
> >> >clue about HDs and engineering.
> >>
> >> Should I be ashamed when the name Al Shugart doesn't ring a bell?
> >
> > When IBM was trying to invent the disk drive back in the 1950s at
> > their San Jose facility, Alan Shugart was the chief engineer of the
> > project. He later formed a company called Shugart Associates that
> > built floppy disk drives and I believe also hard drives. I once saw
> > one of those hard drives at a surplus outlet, and I believe it had a
> > capacity of 14MB and a disk of maybe 8-12" in diameter, housed in
> > clear plastic.
>
> I had one of those in my classroom for years--was a great show-and-tell
> because of the clear case and because the mechanism was big enough to see
> from the back of the room. When I left that job I debated taking it home
> and decided not to. Now I kind of miss having it around.
>
> > He then left that firm to form Shugart Technology but
> > had to change the name because Shugart Associates threatened a
> > lawsuit, so he changed it to Seagate Technology.
>
> --
> --John
> Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


Hello, John:

Oh, and what "classroom" was that, Professor Clarke? <g>


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur@concentric.net>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 10, 2004 4:16:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

John Turco wrote:

> "J. Clarke" wrote:
>>
>> do_not_spam_me wrote:
>>
>> > Marc de Vries <marcdevries@geen.spam.zonnet.nl> wrote in message
>> > news:<p56ne05ea5bs4dh03kmbe79aml2r487sjh@4ax.com>...
>> >> On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:05:38 -0400, "J. Clarke"
>> >> <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >I suspect that Ron would tell Al Shugart that he didn't have a
>> >> >clue about HDs and engineering.
>> >>
>> >> Should I be ashamed when the name Al Shugart doesn't ring a bell?
>> >
>> > When IBM was trying to invent the disk drive back in the 1950s at
>> > their San Jose facility, Alan Shugart was the chief engineer of the
>> > project. He later formed a company called Shugart Associates that
>> > built floppy disk drives and I believe also hard drives. I once saw
>> > one of those hard drives at a surplus outlet, and I believe it had a
>> > capacity of 14MB and a disk of maybe 8-12" in diameter, housed in
>> > clear plastic.
>>
>> I had one of those in my classroom for years--was a great show-and-tell
>> because of the clear case and because the mechanism was big enough to see
>> from the back of the room. When I left that job I debated taking it home
>> and decided not to. Now I kind of miss having it around.
>>
>> > He then left that firm to form Shugart Technology but
>> > had to change the name because Shugart Associates threatened a
>> > lawsuit, so he changed it to Seagate Technology.
>>
>> --
>> --John
>> Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>
> Hello, John:
>
> Oh, and what "classroom" was that, Professor Clarke? <g>

Room 205 at CCTC Flatbush.

> Cordially,
> John Turco <jtur@concentric.net>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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