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Skyrim Developer Says PC Development is a Headache

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November 11, 2011 10:44:19 AM

sissy devs, so they want a huge paycheck with no work? anything worth doing IS DIFFICULT
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32
November 11, 2011 10:46:21 AM

Quote:
Naturally piracy is also a major factor to deal with in PC development.


Oh STFU, it's possible on consoles, as well!!

Quote:
we continue to enthusiastically support our PC fans with things like the Creation Kit and the ability to create and add unlimited amounts of mods and content to your existing PC game.

I cannot imagine a TES game without mods. It'd be an incomplete experience - I remember all the mods I had in Morrowind, they enhanced the game experience so much!

Quote:
As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy' when in fact it's a really solid, stable game.


BS, BS, BS!

You know, somehow The Witcher 2 does NOT have any issues like that and it's one of the best-looking and most stable games I've played!
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November 11, 2011 10:51:02 AM

"As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy' when in fact it's a really solid, stable game."

This comment assumes for years the drivers from nvidia and amd/ati with Rage were rock solid and right before release they rewrote the drivers and thus the game seemed buggy. They released the game without testing the game with recent drivers? They could even include the last "good" driver right on the disk - the problem is there wasn't one.

Come on people, take responsibility. How could any tester have tried a mid-higher end AMD card on that final product and said, "This works great".
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16
November 11, 2011 10:51:29 AM

Quote:
A million different possibilities of hardware, drivers, etc.


BTW, another load of BS! That's what DirectX is there for - it's a hardware abstraction layer; so when you make a game, you make it for DX, NOT for some "specific hardware configuration". Don't try to bull$h!t the enthusiasts, Bethesda!
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November 11, 2011 10:53:33 AM

consoles have made lazy developers.. this makes me sad

edit; well put amk
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November 11, 2011 10:55:54 AM

@amk-aka-Phantom
You hit the nail on the head with your Witcher 2 comment, It had issues but they were not as extreme as Fallout 3 or Skyrims.
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November 11, 2011 10:59:17 AM

Quote:
From a technical standpoint, yes, the PC is a headache
Well then, take an aspirin and shut up!
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25
November 11, 2011 11:05:12 AM

dillonpeterliam@amk-aka-PhantomYou hit the nail on the head with your Witcher 2 comment, It had issues but they were not as extreme as Fallout 3 or Skyrims.


Skyrim already has issues? :lol: 

When you develop an RPG as huge as Morrowind or Fallout 3, I can tolerate quest issues, because I understand that it's a huge amount of work to make sure all quests come together without interfering with each other. And let's be honest, all Morrowind bugs were fixed in the last patch, although it was quite funny: Morrowind has bugs, Tribunal comes out, fixes Morrowind bugs and introduces new ones, Bloodmoon fixes Tribunal bugs and introduces new ones, then FINALLY they fix ALL the bugs in the patch :D 

Witcher 2 DOES have a few quests that can be broken. It's fine, I always play such games with their Wikia page open to know what I have to avoid in order to not break the quest :D 

But this is graphics issues they're talking about, and Witcher 2 has none. And I can name a ton of other games which might be even console ports and STILL have good graphics and no RAGE-like problems.

Indeed,

bojuconsoles have made lazy developers


Probably why tablet gaming is considered such a profitable market - you can milk way more customers for cash without having to develop much at all.
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November 11, 2011 11:05:50 AM

I finished up my review on this game for PC last night and then came here and saw this as a headline, the header may explain why this game is so crappy on PC. I was super disappointing with it. Anyways you guys may want to see my review for yourselves. I didn't give the pc game a high review, but i think it was a fair one.

youtube.com/watch?v=YqX03R4Q1QE
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November 11, 2011 11:10:17 AM

No, this is what happens when you develop for consoles and try to port to PC so you don't have to do as much work.

Also, it is funny they are talking about piracy when Oblivion had no protection, yet still sold awesome on PC?
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29
November 11, 2011 11:18:06 AM

I'll wait for the inevitable GOTY edition, so I can have a good value of DLC, bug fixes, and a ton of mods to choose from.
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November 11, 2011 11:25:59 AM

Excuses in early boys!

Probably the reason people pirate bethesda games, is because they are so buggy and poor.

Afaik, it isn't graphics that makes the rediculous amount of bugs in fallout / elder scrolls.
Since elder scrolls was crap on the console also.
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November 11, 2011 11:32:26 AM

amk-aka-PhantomSkyrim already has issues? When you develop an RPG as huge as Morrowind or Fallout 3, I can tolerate quest issues, because I understand that it's a huge amount of work to make sure all quests come together without interfering with each other. And let's be honest, all Morrowind bugs were fixed in the last patch, although it was quite funny: Morrowind has bugs, Tribunal comes out, fixes Morrowind bugs and introduces new ones, Bloodmoon fixes Tribunal bugs and introduces new ones, then FINALLY they fix ALL the bugs in the patch Witcher 2 DOES have a few quests that can be broken. It's fine, I always play such games with their Wikia page open to know what I have to avoid in order to not break the quest But this is graphics issues they're talking about, and Witcher 2 has none. And I can name a ton of other games which might be even console ports and STILL have good graphics and no RAGE-like problems. Indeed,Probably why tablet gaming is considered such a profitable market - you can milk way more customers for cash without having to develop much at all.


* There's also the assumption that you're making that some people actually update their drivers. Being a gamer doesn't equate to being knowledgeable about the stuff. I still encounter people every now and then who run a Windows XP service pack 1 and haven't done updates for several years on anything. When it comes to updated drivers for the GPU end, I still see it and they usually contribute it to the game rather than their hardware.

LORD_ORIONNo, this is what happens when you develop for consoles and try to port to PC so you don't have to do as much work.Also, it is funny they are talking about piracy when Oblivion had no protection, yet still sold awesome on PC?


* Good sales and/or a game doesn't imply little to no piracy. The basic model most people agree with that applies is when a title is highly anticipated and features good gameplay it sells very well and is equally as pirated as much. It's the same correlation for a movie; the more the movie sells the more it's pirated and why its no surprise Avatar is the most illegally downloaded movie.

g00eyWell then, take an aspirin and shut up!


* I assume they could've just made it for console and not hear people whine as much and say to them to take aspirin as well and STFU.
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November 11, 2011 11:40:18 AM

wooodoggiessissy devs, so they want a huge paycheck with no work? anything worth doing IS DIFFICULT


As if making a game on any platform doesn't require a lot of work? We're talking about Bethesda here...
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4
November 11, 2011 11:55:21 AM

I will help him out by not buying their stupid games anymore.
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November 11, 2011 12:00:11 PM

honestly, I'm sick and tired of this excuse that companies switch to consoles because of piracy. Like piracy doesn't exist on consoles, come on.
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25
Anonymous
November 11, 2011 12:08:43 PM

Well i pirated this game and im proud of it, they decided to use steam, so it was all in their hands.

if not i would have bought it, but im not installing POS steam on my pc.
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November 11, 2011 12:09:21 PM

I seem to recall reading that the platform with the sheer largest number of pirated copies was xbox 360. So why is piracy only a problem on the PC again?

Maybe the reason sales are poor on PC is because PC gamers expect good games, and sorry, but the entire elder scrolls franchise has been nothing but drivel. It's the halo of the RPG world. Lowest common denominator. Tried Morrowwind, gave it up a couple hours in because there was nothing engaging about the world. Dropped Oblivion because I discovered that as much as everybody talked about how pretty it was, that's all there was to it, no game play. I assume skyrim will be more of the same.
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November 11, 2011 12:13:33 PM

amk-aka-PhantomBTW, another load of BS! That's what DirectX is there for - it's a hardware abstraction layer; so when you make a game, you make it for DX, NOT for some "specific hardware configuration". Don't try to bull$h!t the enthusiasts, Bethesda!


This is tangental, but I would much rather devs write games for openGL rather than directX, so they can release them on OSX and Linux as well without almost any problems.

I think the big problem is that when you develop a game for a console, you have to fine grain control every pixel buffer and bit of memory in the video card and system RAM because the resources are so constrained. When you go back to the PC, you forget that PCs are so much more powerful than consoles that using some abstraction layers like the SDL or OpenGL on top of standard library C functions is more than enough to get a game that will compile anywhere.

They are so used to the overly complex development environment for consoles, where each platform must be built almost independently of one another because they have completely different architectures, they forget on the PC you can abstract away almost all of the platform dependencies.
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November 11, 2011 12:45:27 PM

amk-aka-PhantomBTW, another load of BS! That's what DirectX is there for - it's a hardware abstraction layer; so when you make a game, you make it for DX, NOT for some "specific hardware configuration". Don't try to bull$h!t the enthusiasts, Bethesda!


What he means is not likely the code itself but rather the scale, even when its written towards a single api with the same language the code have to allow good performance from the weakest to the more high end machines to be enjoyable for all, if you don't support the weakest the game wont sell ┬┤well and if you don't support the high end you will hear loads of crying harming sales as well. I can understand the headaches in where to put the bar in that regard. With consoles its still the same crap hardware it was years ago so you know when the dev cycle begins where to put the bar. On pc alot changes in the years it take to make a title!
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November 11, 2011 12:52:13 PM

Keep in mind that the graphics card wars help boost gaming back in the 90s for those developers complaining.

The concept was simple, called effort in competing:
3DFX started a rift that made all graphics card developers try to boost their capabilities to meet 3DFxs; however, many have tried and failed. Nvidia, ATI were the remaining forces since 3DFX went under.

Without competition, the advances of gaming, hardware, etc. started to plummet. We've been on the XBOX 360/PS3 for a long while and no hardware advances until Unreal, Frostbite 2 and the Crytek engines appeared, thus making the console wars develop a new system.

Hopefully people realize that we had a decade of graphics/console/engine boost back then and now we are at a halt because people's lack of interest in developing either a new engine/program/etc. to make another competition arise.

Like the other post's mentioned; Either be lazy and just develop for the same console for the next 6 years OR develop a new engine that will revolutionize the gaming industry.
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November 11, 2011 12:59:46 PM

I'd hate to see these current Bethesda devs try and code a game back in the DOS days with no real standardized APIs, LOL. Talk to those coders and then you can complain!
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November 11, 2011 1:07:15 PM

It just is. A million different possibilities of hardware, drivers, etc. As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy' when in fact it's a really solid, stable game."

GLIDE, OpenGL, and Direct3D make it tough. wish there was a unified API that developers could use to make things easier. :) 
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November 11, 2011 1:17:16 PM

I don't get it..

It's hard to make games for PC...yet I hear tons of developers say it's harder to make games for consoles.

FFS stop being so GD lazy.

Look at MW3. Probably the laziest game ever made. It's a complete rehash of MW2, a 2yr old game, with new maps and guns and some game modes stolen from other games like Crysis 2. Hell, if you get a MW3 crash the crash report says "MW2 Error"
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11
November 11, 2011 1:19:37 PM

TL/DR

Anyway, Dilaudid can fix that like nothing else. Pete Hines of Marketing should STFU, he's not making games and earns money by fabricating lies. Douchbags like himself should leave designers and coders make games.
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3
November 11, 2011 2:10:43 PM

cptnjarheadIt just is. A million different possibilities of hardware, drivers, etc. As you saw with Rage, all it takes is some bad video card drivers and years of hard work comes off as 'buggy' when in fact it's a really solid, stable game."GLIDE, OpenGL, and Direct3D make it tough. wish there was a unified API that developers could use to make things easier.


that GLIDE bit is a mental fart, i assume. glide went down with 3dfx back then, there have been no new glide based games ever since those in development were completed after nvidia bought them out. the only way to use GLIDE games these days is through a wrapper or an emulator, but why would you want to, there's plenty of fine games out there. as an aside, glide was basically a subset of opengl, trimmed of all the calls that were not required in game development, at least as it was back in the 90's. devs loved glide, and so did gamers who played on 3dfx hardware, a shame it went the way of the dodo.
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November 11, 2011 2:13:40 PM

zanny said:
This is tangental, but I would much rather devs write games for openGL rather than directX, so they can release them on OSX and Linux as well without almost any problems.


Lol, why? Those OSs still don't have any decent GPU support... why bother? Mac OS and Linux fanboys pride themselves of not "playing toys"...
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November 11, 2011 2:27:33 PM

Funny, how they say piracy is an issue for PC, when the pirated versions first came out for the consoles.
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November 11, 2011 2:29:07 PM

njtthat GLIDE bit is a mental fart, i assume. glide went down with 3dfx back then, there have been no new glide based games ever since those in development were completed after nvidia bought them out. the only way to use GLIDE games these days is through a wrapper or an emulator, but why would you want to, there's plenty of fine games out there. as an aside, glide was basically a subset of opengl, trimmed of all the calls that were not required in game development, at least as it was back in the 90's. devs loved glide, and so did gamers who played on 3dfx hardware, a shame it went the way of the dodo.


WOW!
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November 11, 2011 2:39:30 PM

All these big name developers keep shit talking PC. It's funny how you never heard this stuff back when consoles weren't so popular.

I don't really know what's happening but it seems to me the devs are getting lazy. Like they put all their effort into making the consoles versions of games, and then finish the PC version last. Then they sit and complain because they basically built a console game and are trying to PORT it to PC at the end of the cycle.

Shouldn't it be the other way? ... build the game for PC's and then port it to the under powered consoles?
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November 11, 2011 2:41:57 PM

^After that rant .... I'm still buying Skyrim today though :) 
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November 11, 2011 2:45:31 PM

What the frick ever happened to SEA DOGS? Why didn't these guys produce sequels to this game?

Great pirate ship battle sim and game in general. Would like to see a new release of this one on my two 580s!

Looking forward to Skyrim on this setup. Hope they fixed the combat system by which the dire wolf that kicked my ass when I first started the game has a harder time kicking my ass by the time I finish it.
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November 11, 2011 2:47:38 PM

beardguy said:
All these big name developers keep *** talking PC. It's funny how you never heard this stuff back when consoles weren't so popular.

I don't really know what's happening but it seems to me the devs are getting lazy. Like they put all their effort into making the consoles versions of games, and then finish the PC version last. Then they sit and complain because they basically built a console game and are trying to PORT it to PC at the end of the cycle.

Shouldn't it be the other way? ... build the game for PC's and then port it to the under powered consoles?


It was the case with BF3. I really, REALLY hope ME3 will be ported properly... I hate hearing all this abysmal stuff about the menu being so console-oriented; it pissed me off in SW:TFU to the point where I dropped the game and never came back to it.

chumly said:
Funny, how they say piracy is an issue for PC, when the pirated versions first came out for the consoles.


It's just an excuse. They ARE getting lazy... Ever had a LEGO Mindstorms set? You can either program the robot using one of the existing program languages (I do it in Java) or use the toolkit that is made for young kids and consists of the blocks that you can drag together to make simple algorithms. Sure, the toolkit is much simpler, but the stuff you can pull off with actual programming is far, FAR superior.

Now, the point of that analogy: modern game devs remind me of the kids who use this toolkit.



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November 11, 2011 2:49:19 PM

beardguy^After that rant .... I'm still buying Skyrim today though

i was too, until i saw the price!!! $59 ... i will wait till it comes down to $39 in a few weeks.
60 bucks for a game? do you get a message with that? :) 
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November 11, 2011 2:51:26 PM

ubercake said:
Hope they fixed the combat system by which the dire wolf that kicked my ass when I first started the game has a harder time kicking my ass by the time I finish it.


I actually hate this leveling enemies BS. Morrowind had it lovely... when you're powerful, you can slice through all these "hard" (for low-level char) enemies, so they don't bother you. Instead, you find someone worth a challenge - Bloodmoon was full with such enemies; the wolf riders were so annoying with their Reflect Magic... They reflected my claymore's Cold magic damage back onto me and killed me. So I had to enchant myself another weapon, this time with Fire Damage - they reflected that, too, but I had 150% Fire resistance and didn't care :D  THAT is how you make a game interesting, not by making the same bloody wolf kick your ass no matter how high-level you are.
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November 11, 2011 2:52:27 PM

Another example of why consoles have destroyed the gaming market... Blaming hardware? Really? I am a developer you morons... You might fool the layman but you write items for the method (DX9/11/etc). If the hardware drivers have a problem, it would be interpreting the DX or GL commands and it would be the fault of the manufacturers... All you're doing is being enormously lazy and petulant cause you can't just pop out console cookie-cutter software and make pockets of cash... Heaven forbid you had to work for a living...

And as for pirating; you know @#$% well that consoles get pirated just as much as PCs. It just somehow get's kept out of the public eye as much cause consoles fight to keep their 'appearence' of security. My neighbor kid had literally hundreds of Xbox/PS pirated software (Until I told his parents what they were letting him do to the software community).

And besides; if you build a GOOD game, people will pay for it anyhow. Even those of us whom would normally pirate it, more often then not feel proud to contribute to a quality product... There are always acceptation but being so ignorant to think consoles are somehow priate-free is extremely stupid.
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11
November 11, 2011 2:53:32 PM

cptnjarhead said:
i was too, until i saw the price!!! $59 ... i will wait till it comes down to $39 in a few weeks.
60 bucks for a game? do you get a message with that? :) 


Emperor, WTF is wrong with people waiting for a $20 price drop... don't people normally waste tons of money in US on health care and phone bills which are outrageously expensive?

So unless you're from a country that has better money management system and $20 DOES matter - LOL at you.
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November 11, 2011 2:54:09 PM

amk-aka-PhantomNow, the point of that analogy: modern game devs remind me of the kids who use this toolkit.


That is my point EXACTLY!!! Darn good analogy.
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November 11, 2011 2:55:27 PM

SirGCal said:
Another example of why consoles have destroyed the gaming market... Blaming hardware? Really? I am a developer you morons... You might fool the layman but you write items for the method (DX9/11/etc). If the hardware drivers have a problem, it would be interpreting the DX or GL commands and it would be the fault of the manufacturers... All you're doing is being enormously lazy and petulant cause you can't just pop out console cookie-cutter software and make pockets of cash... Heaven forbid you had to work for a living...

And as for pirating; you know @#$% well that consoles get pirated just as much as PCs. It just somehow get's kept out of the public eye as much cause consoles fight to keep their 'appearence' of security. My neighbor kid had literally hundreds of Xbox/PS pirated software (Until I told his parents what they were letting him do to the software community).

And besides; if you build a GOOD game, people will pay for it anyhow. Even those of us whom would normally pirate it, more often then not feel proud to contribute to a quality product... There are always acceptation but being so ignorant to think consoles are somehow priate-free is extremely stupid.


Fully agree to everything, but... poor kid :D  Console titles deserve to be pirated more and more, maybe THEN the devs will come back to the PC. If I'd have a console, I'd pirate EVERY single game, since the whole point of consoles is being "cheaper" than PC gaming :p 
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November 11, 2011 3:01:11 PM

cptnjarheadi was too, until i saw the price!!! $59 ... i will wait till it comes down to $39 in a few weeks.60 bucks for a game? do you get a message with that?


Yeah, normally I would not drop $60. But this is a RARE game that I thought would be worth it. Because I'm a huge Oblivion fan, and because I know there will be TONS of hours of game play. $60 for say MW3 where the campaign is only 6 hours of game play, hell no! :) 
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November 11, 2011 3:02:03 PM

amk-aka-PhantomFully agree to everything, but... poor kid Console titles deserve to be pirated more and more, maybe THEN the devs will come back to the PC. If I'd have a console, I'd pirate EVERY single game, since the whole point of consoles is being "cheaper" than PC gaming

Heh; good point. Although I do have the conosoles, and I haven't turned a single one on in over four years cause they're that horrible... You just have no control with those darn sticks, I HATE auto-aiming for FPS games (get skill or get lost) and the graphics look worse then my cellphone for goodness sake... Honestly, I have a first-run 360 that I keep meaning to take to GameStop but, I always forget I even have it. (Need to take my PS3/PSP/DS/and... well maybe I'll keep the Wii... Don't know why but Nintendo can at least make things fun somehow... but still it gets turned on like once a year... if that...)
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November 11, 2011 3:02:19 PM

amk-aka-PhantomEmperor, WTF is wrong with people waiting for a $20 price drop... don't people normally waste tons of money in US on health care and phone bills which are outrageously expensive?So unless you're from a country that has better money management system and $20 DOES matter - LOL at you.


You should get back on your meds.
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November 11, 2011 3:04:49 PM

@amk-aka-Phantom

haha that LEGO interface is pretty funny. I cringe at the thought of what the actual code looks like behind that WYSIWYG interface :) 

Makes me laugh to imagine these game devs using an interface like that to build games!
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November 11, 2011 3:06:57 PM

beardguy said:
@amk-aka-Phantom

haha that LEGO interface is pretty funny. I cringe at the thought of what the actual code looks like behind that WYSIWYG interface :) 

Makes me laugh to imagine these game devs using an interface like that to build games!


Eh, the code isn't so scary at all. It's Java, so it's rather simple, and it's not so long. 30 lines or so for making the robot chase other robots on the black arena with white border :D 
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November 11, 2011 3:10:12 PM

I personally think the major issues are the wide-scale success of gaming, the lack of passion from the suits at the top and its trickle down effect, and a company's inability to adjust or restructure to reflect the changing times we live in. There's plenty of successful companies (in and out of the gaming business) that have accommodated properly for piracy, and now its a non-issue for them.
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November 11, 2011 3:11:01 PM

beardguyYeah, normally I would not drop $60. But this is a RARE game that I thought would be worth it. Because I'm a huge Oblivion fan, and because I know there will be TONS of hours of game play. $60 for say MW3 where the campaign is only 6 hours of game play, hell no!


I hear ya. My wife said "you wont last the weekend without buying it" she's probably right.
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November 11, 2011 3:20:40 PM

I spent soo much time playing Oblivion, near mmo status, I was burned out by the time the first (only?) big expansion came along. With this one, I'm pretty sure I'm going to wait until a major expansion so I can pay a lower price for a bigger game world... unless of course the fanboy nerd rage convinces me to get it sooner. I haven't checked yet ;-)
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November 11, 2011 3:21:06 PM

cptnjarheadI hear ya. My wife said "you wont last the weekend without buying it" she's probably right.


Touche' :) 
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1
Anonymous
November 11, 2011 3:41:50 PM

In another development, Barbie declares that "Math is hard!"
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4
!