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16mb buffer hard drive in a laptop

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Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 20, 2004 12:37:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

hi,

I'm about to upgrade the hard drive in my gateway m275 (1.4 pentium m,
256mb ram) and i was looking around and i saw that there are a few
drives on the market with 16mb buffers (mainly the toshiba MK5024GA).
i was wondering, does this realy help, or is it overkill?



thanks for the help,

dan
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 20, 2004 5:50:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Dan Irwin" <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.0408191937.2b612043@posting.google.com...
> hi,
>
> I'm about to upgrade the hard drive in my gateway m275 (1.4 pentium m,
> 256mb ram) and i was looking around and i saw that there are a few
> drives on the market with 16mb buffers (mainly the toshiba MK5024GA).
> i was wondering, does this realy help, or is it overkill?
>


Well it clearly depends on
the apps and workloads you
are running.

I have installed a couple
of Tosh MK5024GAY on two
notebooks, replacing 2MB
5400rpm drives, and the
difference is like night
and day.



dk
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 20, 2004 3:52:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

But would 7200 with an 8mb buffer do just as good?

"Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<41259117$1@news.meer.net>...

> Well it clearly depends on
> the apps and workloads you
> are running.
>
> I have installed a couple
> of Tosh MK5024GAY on two
> notebooks, replacing 2MB
> 5400rpm drives, and the
> difference is like night
> and day.
>

>
>
> dk
Related resources
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 21, 2004 1:12:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Maybe, but why bother?

The Tosh MK-5024GAY are cheaper than the
IBM/Hitachi E7K60. They are also quieter.


dk

"Dan Irwin" <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.0408201052.a700ce3@posting.google.com...
> But would 7200 with an 8mb buffer do just as good?
>
> "Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<41259117$1@news.meer.net>...
>
> > Well it clearly depends on
> > the apps and workloads you
> > are running.
> >
> > I have installed a couple
> > of Tosh MK5024GAY on two
> > notebooks, replacing 2MB
> > 5400rpm drives, and the
> > difference is like night
> > and day.
> >
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 21, 2004 10:17:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

added heat and power draw. I was also thinking would i wind up losing
more in battery power from 7200rpm drive then i would gain in added
performance.

"Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<41274a2b$1@news.meer.net>...
> Maybe, but why bother?
>
> The Tosh MK-5024GAY are cheaper than the
> IBM/Hitachi E7K60. They are also quieter.
>
>
> dk
>
> "Dan Irwin" <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:2a779348.0408201052.a700ce3@posting.google.com...
> > But would 7200 with an 8mb buffer do just as good?
> >
> > "Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<41259117$1@news.meer.net>...
> >
> > > Well it clearly depends on
> > > the apps and workloads you
> > > are running.
> > >
> > > I have installed a couple
> > > of Tosh MK5024GAY on two
> > > notebooks, replacing 2MB
> > > 5400rpm drives, and the
> > > difference is like night
> > > and day.
> > >
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 22, 2004 1:21:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <2a779348.0408211717.3aede45@posting.google.com>,
Dan Irwin <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote:
>added heat and power draw. I was also thinking would i wind up losing
>more in battery power from 7200rpm drive then i would gain in added
>performance.


It's easy enough to check; Find the detail specs for a models you're
considering on the manufacturer's web site, and the disk you've got
now. The specs wiil show power draw for idle, startup, peak, etc.

I just looked at the numbers for these models and they are just about
equal.

Sometimes new designs can be faster _and_ draw less power.



>
>"Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<41274a2b$1@news.meer.net>...
>> Maybe, but why bother?
>>
>> The Tosh MK-5024GAY are cheaper than the
>> IBM/Hitachi E7K60. They are also quieter.
>>
>>
>> dk
>>
>> "Dan Irwin" <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:2a779348.0408201052.a700ce3@posting.google.com...
>> > But would 7200 with an 8mb buffer do just as good?
>> >
>> > "Dan Koren" <dankoren@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:<41259117$1@news.meer.net>...
>> >
>> > > Well it clearly depends on
>> > > the apps and workloads you
>> > > are running.
>> > >
>> > > I have installed a couple
>> > > of Tosh MK5024GAY on two
>> > > notebooks, replacing 2MB
>> > > 5400rpm drives, and the
>> > > difference is like night
>> > > and day.
>> > >


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 22, 2004 3:46:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"Dan Irwin" <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.0408211717.3aede45@posting.google.com...
| added heat and power draw. I was also thinking would i wind up losing
| more in battery power from 7200rpm drive then i would gain in added
| performance.
|

My 7200 uses no more battery than my 4200 did in my m6809.
August 22, 2004 10:54:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Jason Cothran wrote:

> "Dan Irwin" <harryguy082589@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:2a779348.0408211717.3aede45@posting.google.com...
> | added heat and power draw. I was also thinking would i wind up losing
> | more in battery power from 7200rpm drive then i would gain in added
> | performance.
> |
>
> My 7200 uses no more battery than my 4200 did in my m6809.

I've had a 60GB Hitachi in my ThinkPad for > 6 months - big bump in
performance & I've never noticed that it made any noise at all.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 23, 2004 1:47:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Dan Koren wrote:

> Maybe, but why bother?
>
> The Tosh MK-5024GAY are cheaper than the
> IBM/Hitachi E7K60. They are also quieter.
>

"Quieter" is a mute point (no pun intended). Most drives start out life
pretty quiet, but get a helluva lot louder after a few months (a year
tops). If you really want a quiet drive (don't we all!) then I reckon
you have to factor in a hard drive change over every year. Oh well.

-p
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 23, 2004 5:47:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In comp.sys.laptops plated metal <ha@yeah.right> wrote:
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > Maybe, but why bother?
> >
> > The Tosh MK-5024GAY are cheaper than the
> > IBM/Hitachi E7K60. They are also quieter.
> >
>
> "Quieter" is a mute point (no pun intended).

You mean "moot":

moot
adj 1: open to debate [syn: {disputed}]
2: capable of being disproved [syn: {debatable}, {disputable}]
v: think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the
possibility of a strike" [syn: {consider}, {debate}, {turn
over}, {deliberate}]

So I think you must have _intended_ a pun, and failed somewhere along
the line.

> Most drives start out life
> pretty quiet, but get a helluva lot louder after a few months (a year

!! Well, it's likely that a failing drive will be noisy, or even that
a drive slowly swapping outmore and more bad sectors will be physically
jumping the heads from point to point more and more, which makes more
noise, but to say "most drives" do that within the lifetime of the
laptop would be out of order. I've owned something like 7 laptops over
the years (started with a 386sx50), and all of them still work, and
none of them make any more noise than they ever did that I can notice!

Now, noisy scsi barracuda drive on servers is something else ...

Peter
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 24, 2004 2:09:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

P.T. Breuer wrote:
> In comp.sys.laptops plated metal <ha@yeah.right> wrote:
>
>>Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Maybe, but why bother?
>>>
>>>The Tosh MK-5024GAY are cheaper than the
>>>IBM/Hitachi E7K60. They are also quieter.
>>>
>>
>>"Quieter" is a mute point (no pun intended).
>
>
> You mean "moot":
>
> moot
> adj 1: open to debate [syn: {disputed}]
> 2: capable of being disproved [syn: {debatable}, {disputable}]
> v: think about carefully; weigh; "They considered the
> possibility of a strike" [syn: {consider}, {debate}, {turn
> over}, {deliberate}]
>
> So I think you must have _intended_ a pun, and failed somewhere along
> the line.
>
>
>>Most drives start out life
>>pretty quiet, but get a helluva lot louder after a few months (a year
>
>
> !! Well, it's likely that a failing drive will be noisy, or even that
> a drive slowly swapping outmore and more bad sectors will be physically
> jumping the heads from point to point more and more, which makes more
> noise, but to say "most drives" do that within the lifetime of the
> laptop would be out of order. I've owned something like 7 laptops over
> the years (started with a 386sx50), and all of them still work, and
> none of them make any more noise than they ever did that I can notice!

Point taken on the "mute" point! I had forgotten all about the "moot"
spelling.

The "noisy" drive development doesn't correlate with failure. That is,
I've had quite a few that have gotten noise after a few months, as I
described, but have not failed (and one in particular has worked
flawlessly, though noisily, for the last four years). I suspect it's a
bearing problem (plenty of scope for anothe pun there, but I'm staying
well clear). (Compare case fans in desktops which have a well known
tendency to get noisier and it's generally the bearings.)


> Now, noisy scsi barracuda drive on servers is something else ...

Yep.

>
> Peter
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 24, 2004 5:26:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

> tops). If you really want a quiet drive (don't we all!) then I reckon
> you have to factor in a hard drive change over every year. Oh well.

or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
there is one). Longer battery life, too.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 24, 2004 6:49:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

David Chien wrote:

>> tops). If you really want a quiet drive (don't we all!) then I reckon
>> you have to factor in a hard drive change over every year. Oh well.

> or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
> have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
> buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
> laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
> there is one). Longer battery life, too.

Yes, but flash drives are slow, 5MB/sec transfer rates for the standard
devices:
http://www.simpletech.com/webspeed/industrial/briefs/R1...

7-9MB/sec for the "high speed" variant.

Also, they're low capacity; the highest is only 8GB. That's plenty for a
Linux install, but barely enough for a Windows install. 800MB is ridiculous.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 24, 2004 7:46:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> writes:
> or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash
> drives have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation.
> You can buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they
> turn any laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make
> sounds, if there is one). Longer battery life, too.

You definitely can't buy an 800mb flash drive for $40. 80mb, maybe.

Also, flash drives are MUCH MUCH SLOWER than hard drives for writing.
They have no seek delay, and the read speed is reasonably fast, but
the write speed is very slow.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 24, 2004 9:31:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

David Chien wrote:

>> tops). If you really want a quiet drive (don't we all!) then I reckon
>> you have to factor in a hard drive change over every year. Oh well.
>
> or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
> have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
> buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
> laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
> there is one). Longer battery life, too.

Now lemme see you install any current version of Windows on an 800 meg drive
and have enough left over to do anything useful.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 24, 2004 11:26:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Dumb question:D oes the buffer buffer within the hard drive and the
rest of the comp or the hard drive and itself (aka is it like the
[ever growing] cpu cache or RAM of a computer)?

harryguy082589@aol.com (Dan Irwin) wrote in message news:<2a779348.0408191937.2b612043@posting.google.com>...
> hi,
>
> I'm about to upgrade the hard drive in my gateway m275 (1.4 pentium m,
> 256mb ram) and i was looking around and i saw that there are a few
> drives on the market with 16mb buffers (mainly the toshiba MK5024GA).
> i was wondering, does this realy help, or is it overkill?
>
>
>
> thanks for the help,
>
> dan
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 3:57:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In comp.sys.laptops David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote:
> > tops). If you really want a quiet drive (don't we all!) then I reckon
> > you have to factor in a hard drive change over every year. Oh well.
>
> or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
> have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can

However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
write cycles.

> buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
> laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if

Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
flash drive to hold up.

Peter
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 3:57:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

"P.T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
news:p jdggc.lqd.ln@news.it.uc3m.es...
> >
> > or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
> > have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
>
> However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
> write cycles.
>
Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have ECC
and sector remapping just like hard drives. They can use other tricks like
rotating frequently written sectors.

> > buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
> > laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
>
> Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
> flash drive to hold up.
>
Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like flies.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 3:57:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es (P.T. Breuer) wrote
> In comp.sys.laptops David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote:
> > These 2.5" flash drives have 100% no moving parts, and
> > are 100% silent in operation.
> they won't operate for long. They have very limited
> number of write cycles.

Typically 1 million minimum write cycles for the higher
quality flash:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+%22write+cycles%22...
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 8:09:45 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In comp.sys.laptops Eric Gisin <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote:
> "P.T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
> news:p jdggc.lqd.ln@news.it.uc3m.es...
> > >
> > > or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
> > > have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
> >
> > However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
> > write cycles.
> >
> Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have ECC
> and sector remapping just like hard drives. They can use other tricks like

Then they'll need it.

> rotating frequently written sectors.

That is a good idea. The max write cycle on flash memory is only a few
hundred times. Spreading that load over the whole disk instead of a
single sector would dramatically help.

> > > buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
> > > laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
> >
> > Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
> > flash drive to hold up.
> >
> Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like flies.

Yes you do, because yes they do.

Peter
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 8:09:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

P.T. Breuer wrote:

> In comp.sys.laptops Eric Gisin <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote:
>> "P.T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
>> news:p jdggc.lqd.ln@news.it.uc3m.es...
>> > >
>> > > or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash
>> > > drives
>> > > have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
>> >
>> > However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>> > write cycles.
>> >
>> Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
>> ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives. They can use other tricks
>> like
>
> Then they'll need it.
>
>> rotating frequently written sectors.
>
> That is a good idea. The max write cycle on flash memory is only a few
> hundred times.

Anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 for current devices.

> Spreading that load over the whole disk instead of a
> single sector would dramatically help.
>
>> > > buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn
>> > > any laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make
>> > > sounds, if
>> >
>> > Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
>> > flash drive to hold up.
>> >
>> Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
>> flies.
>
> Yes you do, because yes they do.
>
> Peter

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 8:09:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es (P.T. Breuer) wrote
> The max write cycle on flash memory is only a few
> hundred times.

The minimum write cycle capacity for any commercial
flash is one hundred thousand. Higher quality flash
units typically have write cycle capacities of
one million, minimum:
http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+%22write+cycles%22...
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 11:40:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <cggp9102srv@enews3.newsguy.com>,
Eric Gisin <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote:
>"P.T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
>news:p jdggc.lqd.ln@news.it.uc3m.es...
>> >
>> > or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
>> > have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
>>
>> However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>> write cycles.
>>
>Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have ECC
>and sector remapping just like hard drives. They can use other tricks like
>rotating frequently written sectors.
>


The CF cards used in cameras _can_ be used as a compuer disk
drive. I've done it, but the cehap consuber models is slow as ....,
and have a documented limititation on the lifetime # of write cycles,
in the "millions", and I've never figured out exactly what was
a "write cycle" .

The software I use boots from the CF card, builds a memory-resident
RAMdisk for data structures, the marks the CFcard file system as
read-only. The guy that hacked Linix to do this had to play some
games to make Linux run on a read-only boot partition.


http://www.nycwireless.net/pebble/


There are solid-state IDE disks, but I believe they max out at a GB
and are very expensive.


>> > buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
>> > laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
>>
>> Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
>> flash drive to hold up.
>>
>Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like flies.
>


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 2:50:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Al Dykes wrote:

> In article <cggp9102srv@enews3.newsguy.com>,
> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@graffiti.net> wrote:
>>"P.T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
>>news:p jdggc.lqd.ln@news.it.uc3m.es...
>>> >
>>> > or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash
>>> > drives
>>> > have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
>>>
>>> However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>>> write cycles.
>>>
>>Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
>>ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives. They can use other tricks
>>like rotating frequently written sectors.
>>
>
>
> The CF cards used in cameras _can_ be used as a compuer disk
> drive. I've done it, but the cehap consuber models is slow as ....,
> and have a documented limititation on the lifetime # of write cycles,
> in the "millions", and I've never figured out exactly what was
> a "write cycle" .

Every time you change a bit that's a "write cycle" and I'd like to see the
documentation that says that it's in the "millions". The slow writes are a
characteristic of flash memory--to change the contents a certain voltage
has to be applied for a certain period of time.

In any case, if it's in the millions and you're using it for swap space you
can go through that in a few weeks.

> The software I use boots from the CF card, builds a memory-resident
> RAMdisk for data structures, the marks the CFcard file system as
> read-only. The guy that hacked Linix to do this had to play some
> games to make Linux run on a read-only boot partition.

Actually, there are no "games" that have to be played to make Linux run from
a read-only boot partition. The boot partition contains the loader and the
kernel and a minimum set of drivers and not much else and the only time its
contents get changed is when one deliberately updates its contents.

Every Linux distribution I know of installs from a bootable CD, which is
about as "read only" as it gets.

As for your software, if that does what you need that's fine but it's hardly
a general-purpose solution.

> http://www.nycwireless.net/pebble/
>
>
> There are solid-state IDE disks, but I believe they max out at a GB
> and are very expensive.

The flash disks come much larger than that, but I don't know of any
non-flash solid-state IDE disks. The SCSI solid state disks can cost
anywhere from a few thousand to a few million dollars but they're designed
for speed.

>>> > buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
>>> > laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds,
>>> > if
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
>>> flash drive to hold up.
>>>
>>Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
>>flies.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 25, 2004 2:51:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Chris Allen wrote:

> ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es (P.T. Breuer) wrote
>> The max write cycle on flash memory is only a few
>> hundred times.
>
> The minimum write cycle capacity for any commercial
> flash is one hundred thousand. Higher quality flash
> units typically have write cycle capacities of
> one million, minimum:
> http://www.google.com/search?q=flash+%22write+cycles%22...

Now, is there any particular site among the 2330 turned up by that search
that supports your argument, or are you just using the "bury 'em in
bullshit" approach?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 6:49:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

> Also, flash drives are MUCH MUCH SLOWER than hard drives for writing.
> They have no seek delay, and the read speed is reasonably fast, but
> the write speed is very slow.

http://www.m-sys.com/Content/Products/product.asp?pid=2...
up to 47GB models available, 90GB model announced.

16.7 MBytes/sec burst read/write rate
8.3-8.7 MBytes/sec sustained read rate (DMA 2)
8.0-12.0 MBytes/sec sustained write rate (DMA 2)

http://www.m-systems.com/Content/Products/product.asp?p...
Up to 4GB model in standard 9.5mm thickness at
Performance
Burst Read/Write: 100.0 MBytes/sec
Sustained Read: 40.0 MBytes/sec
Sustained Write: 40.0 MBytes/sec
Access time: <0.04 ms
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 6:50:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

> However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
> write cycles.

Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
that's running just fine in my notebook.

flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
any problems at all in most user environments.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 7:01:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

for a government supplier of flash HDs (M-systems), here's their specs
for one 2.5" they sell:

Reliability
MTBF: 1,493,418 hours MTBF for 4.0 GB based on Telcordia SR-332, GB, 25°C
EDC/ECC Embedded EDC/ECC, based on BCH Algorithm
BER (Bit Error Rate) <10-20
5 Million write/erase cycles, unlimited read cycles, 5 year warranty.

compare that to a Toshiba HD (100GB 2.5" model):

Error Rates:
Non-recoverable 1 in 1013 bits
Seek 1 in 106 seeks
MTTF (Power on hours) 300,000
Product Life 5 years or 20,000 power ON hours

Flash drives are far more reliable in terms of bit-rate errors (10^-20
vs. 10^-13 for HDs) and time to failure.

Keep in mind that the write/erase cycle is for =each memory cell=.
Thus, for an entire HD to be rendered useless, you'll have to put each
cell through 100,000+ write/erase cycles (for typical specs; higher for
higher quality flash cells). You can rest assured that you'll have to
use a flash drive hard for years before anything happens.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 10:02:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

In article <cgllsf$fve$1@news.service.uci.edu>,
David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote:
>
>> Also, flash drives are MUCH MUCH SLOWER than hard drives for writing.
>> They have no seek delay, and the read speed is reasonably fast, but
>> the write speed is very slow.
>
>http://www.m-sys.com/Content/Products/product.asp?pid=2...
>up to 47GB models available, 90GB model announced.
>
>16.7 MBytes/sec burst read/write rate
>8.3-8.7 MBytes/sec sustained read rate (DMA 2)
>8.0-12.0 MBytes/sec sustained write rate (DMA 2)
>
>http://www.m-systems.com/Content/Products/product.asp?p...
>Up to 4GB model in standard 9.5mm thickness at
>Performance
>Burst Read/Write: 100.0 MBytes/sec
>Sustained Read: 40.0 MBytes/sec
>Sustained Write: 40.0 MBytes/sec
>Access time: <0.04 ms


How much do they cost. * figure $50/GB for the big/slow models and
$100/GB for the small/fast models.


This is editied from the spec sheets for the second URL;

Power
Input voltage: 5VDC (+/- 5%)
Typical power consumption:

4.0GB 90.1GB
Idle 2.7 W 3.1 W
Standby 2.5 W 3.1 W
Sustained R/W2.7 W 4.5 W
Sanitize 3.0 W 6.0 W


(It looks like it draws more power than a similar 2.5in
hard disk, by a small mut meaningful amount.)

Endurance
Unlimited read cycles
>5,000,000 Write/Erase cycles
TrueFFS. dynamic wear-leveling
Garbage collection process
>10 years' data retention


(It's not unlimited write cycles. I've never seen
a description if what a write/erase cycle is.)


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 10:02:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) writes:
> How much do they cost. * figure $50/GB for the big/slow models and
> $100/GB for the small/fast models.

Where'd you get those prices from? That's astonishingly low.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 10:02:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

http://www.litepc.com/98micro.html

Only 46MB required for a 98Lite install of Windows 98, 121MB for Windows 98.

Out of 800MB, I =think= there's enough room to load up Office 97,
Mozilla, Photoshop, and a couple other programs before it all runs of room.

Besides, Knoppix runs off a single CD, so there you go -- no problems
running a handful of commonly used applications on either Linux or
Windows on a 800MB HD.

(Makes you wonder, too. What in the world did MS throw into XP that
bloated a 121MB, 1806 file install of Windows 98 into a 1/2GB, 10k+ file
install of XP?!? It's not like we can't do anything with our files that
we couldn't do in XP in 98. No wonder our PCs are so slow today....)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 10:02:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> writes:
> http://www.litepc.com/98micro.html
>
> Only 46MB required for a 98Lite install of Windows 98, 121MB for Windows 98.

Yeah, the question was where Al got those flash drive prices. I have
no interest at all in running Windows, but wow, you were right about
the 810MB drive. I might buy one.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 26, 2004 10:39:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

David Chien wrote:

>> However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>> write cycles.
>
> Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
> that's running just fine in my notebook.
>
> flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
> lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
> any problems at all in most user environments.

In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
"most user environments".

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 12:43:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

David Chien wrote:

> http://www.litepc.com/98micro.html
>
> Only 46MB required for a 98Lite install of Windows 98, 121MB for Windows
> 98.

How about a version of Windows that is actually in production? In case you
have noticed Microsoft quit selling 98 some time ago.

> Out of 800MB, I =think= there's enough room to load up Office 97,
> Mozilla, Photoshop, and a couple other programs before it all runs of
> room.

That might be--2K and Office 2000 left 3 gig out of a five gig disk. And
that was only a partial O2K--a full install had several more apps from the
first CD and 3 more to go.

> Besides, Knoppix runs off a single CD, so there you go -- no problems
> running a handful of commonly used applications on either Linux or
> Windows on a 800MB HD.
>
> (Makes you wonder, too. What in the world did MS throw into XP that
> bloated a 121MB, 1806 file install of Windows 98 into a 1/2GB, 10k+ file
> install of XP?!? It's not like we can't do anything with our files that
> we couldn't do in XP in 98. No wonder our PCs are so slow today....)

Actually, they threw 98 compatibility into NT.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 2:16:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

these would be very good for making home-brued always on machines
which have no moving parts (aka home ___ server)

David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message news:<cgln8d$h2c$1@news.service.uci.edu>...
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...
>
> This guy is selling 10 such 800MB flash drives for $40 / each.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 2:20:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

I was looking on froogle and these drives in stores go for upwards of
200? why are they so cheap on ebay


David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message news:<cgln8d$h2c$1@news.service.uci.edu>...
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...
>
> This guy is selling 10 such 800MB flash drives for $40 / each.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 1:46:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Dan Irwin wrote:

> I was looking on froogle and these drives in stores go for upwards of
> 200? why are they so cheap on ebay

He claims they're surplus to a project. Might have "fallen off a truck".
>
>
> David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
> news:<cgln8d$h2c$1@news.service.uci.edu>...
>>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=...
>>
>> This guy is selling 10 such 800MB flash drives for $40 / each.


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 4:34:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

>>I was looking on froogle and these drives in stores go for upwards of
>>200? why are they so cheap on ebay
>
> He claims they're surplus to a project. Might have "fallen off a truck".

works fine for me here. good seller, no problems with the drive.
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 5:50:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:
> David Chien wrote:
>
>
>>>However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>>>write cycles.
>>
>> Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
>>that's running just fine in my notebook.
>>
>> flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
>>lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
>>any problems at all in most user environments.
>
>
> In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
> which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
> that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
> "most user environments".
>
What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it. A CF to IDE adapter
goes for less about $20.

WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/libr...
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 5:50:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <d_GXc.10365$0J6.2009@fe1.columbus.rr.com>,
Shailesh Humbad <noreply@nowhere.com> wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>> David Chien wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>>>>write cycles.
>>>
>>> Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
>>>that's running just fine in my notebook.
>>>
>>> flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
>>>lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
>>>any problems at all in most user environments.
>>
>>
>> In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
>> which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
>> that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
>> "most user environments".
>>
>What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
>tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
>scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
> card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it. A CF to IDE adapter
>goes for less about $20.
>
>WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:
>
>http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/libr...
>/xetbsCompactFlash.asp


H**l; Winxp/embedded can run in a cell phone! (I think that's what
Motorola uses)

I know the poeple that write Pebble, a linux tailored to run from a 64
or 128MB CF card on a small mobo that has 64mb RAM. That's all there
is. I've built a couple systems from the setup scripts.The Pebble
package is a WiFI AP and web server that's widely used for the Free
WiFi zones and local coffe shops. Neat stuff.

www.nycwireless.com/pebble

When Pebble Linux boots it makes some of RAM a memory-resident file
system for run-time data. It runs the binaries of the CF card, but
this file system is marked RO after booting is complete to protect the
life of the CF card. It required some magic to make the Linux kernel
happy running from a RO file system.

There are MAKERW and MAKERO commands so that I can edit configuration
files while the system is running and then make the system disk RO
afterwords.

Pebble is designed to run for years in remote locations. A couple
years ago the guys were conservative about CF card write cycle
lifetimes. I haven't heard that they have changed their mind(s).

--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 5:50:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Al Dykes wrote:

> In article <d_GXc.10365$0J6.2009@fe1.columbus.rr.com>,
> Shailesh Humbad <noreply@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>J. Clarke wrote:
>>> David Chien wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>>>>>write cycles.
>>>>
>>>> Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
>>>>that's running just fine in my notebook.
>>>>
>>>> flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
>>>>lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
>>>>any problems at all in most user environments.
>>>
>>>
>>> In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap
>>> file,
>>> which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running
>>> Windows that's another story but then you're not running anything
>>> characteristic of "most user environments".
>>>
>>What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
>>tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
>>scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
>> card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it. A CF to IDE adapter
>>goes for less about $20.
>>
>>WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:
>>
>>http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/libr...
>>/xetbsCompactFlash.asp
>
>
> H**l; Winxp/embedded can run in a cell phone! (I think that's what
> Motorola uses)

First, XP Embedded is not quite the same as XP Pro or XP Home. Yes, it can
run from a flash disk, or a CD or a ROM for that matter--it purpose to
existence in fact is that it can be burned into ROM--but it doesn't give
the same functionality. And it's not something that the "average consumer"
is going to have or want.

Second, the cell phones do not run any flavor of XP, they run a variant the
operating system that Microsoft developed to compete with PalmOS, which has
gone through so many name changes that I've given up trying to keep track
of what they call it this week.

> I know the poeple that write Pebble, a linux tailored to run from a 64
> or 128MB CF card on a small mobo that has 64mb RAM. That's all there
> is. I've built a couple systems from the setup scripts.The Pebble
> package is a WiFI AP and web server that's widely used for the Free
> WiFi zones and local coffe shops. Neat stuff.
>
> www.nycwireless.com/pebble
>
> When Pebble Linux boots it makes some of RAM a memory-resident file
> system for run-time data. It runs the binaries of the CF card, but
> this file system is marked RO after booting is complete to protect the
> life of the CF card. It required some magic to make the Linux kernel
> happy running from a RO file system.
>
> There are MAKERW and MAKERO commands so that I can edit configuration
> files while the system is running and then make the system disk RO
> afterwords.
>
> Pebble is designed to run for years in remote locations. A couple
> years ago the guys were conservative about CF card write cycle
> lifetimes. I haven't heard that they have changed their mind(s).

You can run MS-DOS from a ROM too.

It is certainly possible to make a machine that uses a flash disk--Palm and
Compaq and many others make such machines and you can buy them at any
office supply store. That has never been the issue. The issue was the
utility of a $40 IDE flash disk as a replacement for the magnetic disk in a
notebook computer used by an "average" consumer.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 27, 2004 10:38:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Shailesh Humbad" <noreply@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:D _GXc.10365$0J6.2009@fe1.columbus.rr.com
> J. Clarke wrote:
> > David Chien wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
> > > > write cycles.
> > >
> > > Tell that to my 800MB 2.5" flash drive I picked up cheap off ebay.com
> > > that's running just fine in my notebook.
> > >
> > > flash cells typically are rated in the 100,000 cycles per cell
> > > lifespan, and with automatic write balancing, drives can last years w/o
> > > any problems at all in most user environments.
> >
> >
> > In "most user environments" Windows is constantly updating the swap file,
> > which will kill a flash drive very quickly. If you're not running Windows
> > that's another story but then you're not running anything characteristic of
> > "most user environments".
> >
> What if we disable the swap file? I wonder if anyone has actually
> tried running Windows on a flash disk, or if everyone has just been
> scared off by the write-cycle limitation. I have an extra 256MB flash
> card, maybe I will try running Win98 off it.

> A CF to IDE adapter goes for less about $20.

Is that a CF to CF-IDE adapter -that merely adds the CompactFlash
IDE commandset- that you stick between a CF-card and a CF- slot or
a CF to 40 pin IDE connector adapter?

Is there any difference in running a flashcard like that and just
running a ramdisk on a Flashcard? Aren't there drivers that allow
you to run a FlashCard as a disk (emulating the command set)?

>
> WinXP embedded can run from flash disk:
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/libr...
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 28, 2004 12:49:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> "Shailesh Humbad" <noreply@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:D _GXc.10365$0J6.2009@fe1.columbus.rr.com
>
>>A CF to IDE adapter goes for less about $20.
>
>
> Is that a CF to CF-IDE adapter -that merely adds the CompactFlash
> IDE commandset- that you stick between a CF-card and a CF- slot or
> a CF to 40 pin IDE connector adapter?
>
> Is there any difference in running a flashcard like that and just
> running a ramdisk on a Flashcard? Aren't there drivers that allow
> you to run a FlashCard as a disk (emulating the command set)?
>

AFAIK, you plug the compact flash card into the adapter, and then the
adapter into an empty IDE port. I believe the adapter has minimal
on-board logic, and is basically just a pass-through. After it's
plugged in, it appears to the system just like any other regular hard
disk drive. You have to format and partition it, and then the system
assigns it a drive letter. No drivers are needed.

http://www.acscontrol.com/Index_ACS.asp?Page=/Pages/Pro...
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
August 29, 2004 4:22:21 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Shailesh Humbad" <noreply@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:N7NXc.39189$cT6.19701@fe2.columbus.rr.com
> Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> > "Shailesh Humbad" <noreply@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:D _GXc.10365$0J6.2009@fe1.columbus.rr.com
> >
> >>A CF to IDE adapter goes for less about $20.
> >
> >
> > Is that a CF to CF-IDE adapter -that merely adds the CompactFlash
> > IDE commandset- that you stick between a CF-card and a CF- slot or
> > a CF to 40 pin IDE connector adapter?
> >
> > Is there any difference in running a flashcard like that and just
> > running a ramdisk on a Flashcard? Aren't there drivers that allow
> > you to run a FlashCard as a disk (emulating the command set)?
> >
>
> AFAIK, you plug the compact flash card into the adapter, and then the
> adapter into an empty IDE port. I believe the adapter has minimal
> on-board logic, and is basically just a pass-through. After it's
> plugged in, it appears to the system just like any other regular hard
> disk drive. You have to format and partition it, and then the system
> assigns it a drive letter.

> No drivers are needed.

Which means that there must be some logic that imitates a real IDE bus
(which apparently is not all that different from CF in the first place)
and IDE command set and registers.

>
> http://www.acscontrol.com/Index_ACS.asp?Page=/Pages/Pro...
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
October 30, 2004 8:43:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.sys.laptops (More info?)

Eric Gisin wrote:

> "P.T. Breuer" <ptb@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote in message
> news:p jdggc.lqd.ln@news.it.uc3m.es...
>> >
>> > or simply drop in a flash hard drive drive. These 2.5" flash drives
>> > have 100% no moving parts, and are 100% silent in operation. You can
>>
>> However, they won't operate for long. They have very limited number of
>> write cycles.
>>
> Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
> ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.

So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number of
rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up the
allowable writes in a remarkably short time.

> They can use other tricks
> like rotating frequently written sectors.

Which delay the inevitable.

>> > buy them cheap off www.ebay.com (eg. 800MB for ~$40) and they turn any
>> > laptop into a silent notebook (assuming CPU fan doesn't make sounds, if
>>
>> Unfortunately, also a dead deadbook, very shortly, if you expect the
>> flash drive to hold up.
>>
> Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
> flies.

Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
October 30, 2004 8:43:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cm0vdd02moh@news2.newsguy.com...
> Eric Gisin wrote:
>
> > Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
> > ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.
>
> So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number of
> rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
> frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up the
> allowable writes in a remarkably short time.
>
Then you detect the error and remap the bad sector. Sound familiar?

> > They can use other tricks
> > like rotating frequently written sectors.
>
> Which delay the inevitable.
>
Nope. You have millions of sectors, some of them spares.

> > Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
> > flies.
>
> Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.
>
They all have frequently written areas, the FAT and root dir. Why aren't they
dying?
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
November 3, 2004 3:06:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Eric Gisin wrote:
>
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cm0vdd02moh@news2.newsguy.com...
> > Eric Gisin wrote:
> >
> > > Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and have
> > > ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.
> >
> > So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number of
> > rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
> > frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up the
> > allowable writes in a remarkably short time.
> >
> Then you detect the error and remap the bad sector. Sound familiar?
>
> > > They can use other tricks
> > > like rotating frequently written sectors.
> >
> > Which delay the inevitable.
> >
> Nope. You have millions of sectors, some of them spares.
>
> > > Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
> > > flies.
> >
> > Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.
> >
> They all have frequently written areas, the FAT and root dir. Why aren't they
> dying?


Hello, Eric:

"Flash memory cards" will wear out, physically, after a comparatively
brief number of write cycles (100,000 is typical). Are "flash hard
drives" any more durable?


Cordially,
John Turco <jtur@concentric.net>
Anonymous
a b D Laptop
a b G Storage
November 4, 2004 11:18:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"John Turco" <jtur@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:4188677D.F0590805@concentric.net...
> Eric Gisin wrote:
> >
> > "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:cm0vdd02moh@news2.newsguy.com...
> > > Eric Gisin wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nonsense. Flash hard drives are designed for harsh environments, and
have
> > > > ECC and sector remapping just like hard drives.
> > >
> > > So what? Any flash chip will have in its datasheet the allowable number
of
> > > rewrites. If you're using it in an environment in which writes are
> > > frequent (for example Windows with its page file) then you will use up
the
> > > allowable writes in a remarkably short time.
> > >
> > Then you detect the error and remap the bad sector. Sound familiar?
> >
> > > > They can use other tricks
> > > > like rotating frequently written sectors.
> > >
> > > Which delay the inevitable.
> > >
> > Nope. You have millions of sectors, some of them spares.
> >
> > > > Flash memory cards have no smarts, yet I don't see them dropping like
> > > > flies.
> > >
> > > Flash memory cards are not normally used as primary storage.
> > >
> > They all have frequently written areas, the FAT and root dir. Why aren't
they
> > dying?
>
> "Flash memory cards" will wear out, physically, after a comparatively
> brief number of write cycles (100,000 is typical). Are "flash hard
> drives" any more durable?
>
I already answered that. Twice. Learn to read.
!