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Cost of DVD as data storage versus HDD (UK)

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 4:51:01 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

What is the cost of DVD storage in the UK? I am in the UK so my figures
reflect UK prices. I want to store data not music.

I would welcome any comments on my posting.


(1) I can buy a 160GB hard drive for approx £65 including delivery. (E.G.
Maxtor Plus9 160GB 8MB 7200rpm from Dabs).
The available formatted space on the HDD is about 150GB (in 4K block with
NTFS), so this comes to 41p per GB.

Sustained data transfer rates are fast (about 15 MB/s according to
http://storagereview.com/map/lm.cgi/str and
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/extSpeed-c.html) so the process of
getting data to or from the HDD is relatively quick.


(2) For CDs (not DVD) I would say the usable storage space is approx 500MB
(not 750 or 800 because it is rare to completely fill a CD and I believe
there is approx 10 percent used for error correction). I don't know what
block size is used.

I want to have a protective case and not use the very cheapest product. 100
cased CD-Rs is approx £22 including delivery. I need 300 to match 150GB so
the total cost is £66. This excludes costs for the CD-R burner.

Data transfer rates when reading are not bad at about 3 MB/s (according to
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/cd/perfTransfer-c.html).


(3) DVDs. Now this is new to me. Are the following reasonable
assumptions.

Cased DVD+R or DVD-R 8x blanks are about £0.50 each (?).

What does the nominal 4.7Gb actually hold when data is stored?

Is the block size relatively large?

What is the cost per GB assuming the disk is only 80% filled?


Overall, I get the impression that HDDs are a far better and cheaper way of
backing up data for the home user. The HDD can be re-used and if the HDD is
plugged in (which can be harder than inserting a DVD) then the availability
is almost instantaneous.
October 13, 2004 4:51:02 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD
Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all other things that will kill an HDD
So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 4:51:02 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

David X wrote:

> Overall, I get the impression that HDDs are a far better and cheaper
> way of backing up data for the home user. The HDD can be re-used and
> if the HDD is plugged in (which can be harder than inserting a DVD)
> then the availability is almost instantaneous.

Its also easy to delete masses of data quickly on HDD.....

At least with write-once media like CDR and DVDR there's no
temptation to use it as "extra online space",

--
Mike
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 4:51:03 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Locutus" <Drone@Uni-MatrixOne.DeltaQuadrent> wrote in message
news:8didnbOX9roTgfDcRVn-gw@rcn.net...
> Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
> I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD
> Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
> unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
> DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all other
> things that will kill an HDD
> So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run

Depends on the quality of your DVD's. As people are noticing with CDR the
dye degrades over time, and scratches can be a major problem.
A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup, as
if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without any
data loss.

Dan


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Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 4:51:03 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:16:17 -0400, "Locutus"
<Drone@Uni-MatrixOne.DeltaQuadrent> wrote:

>I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD

There is no data to support this. Since recordable DVD storage is a
relatively new medium, it will be some years before we know if it has
the same dye degradation problems CDRs do (though it appears that it
does, based on early reports). Even then, the dye and reflective
layer formulations are constantly being changed, so data valid on 2
year old 2.4X media is not applicable to today's 8X media.

>Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
>unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s

These are true, and DVDs can be stored off-site as well.

>DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all other things that will kill an HDD

DVDs are susceptible to shock and flexing causing the two
polycarbonate layers to delaminate from the data layer. Moisture can
cause problems with the dye layer if there are any gaps in the edge
seal. Also, leaving one sitting in the sunlight will kill it quickly.
We don't even know all the failure mechanisms for DVD yet.

>So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run

More like the risks and costs are different between the two media.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 5:43:08 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"David X" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

>Overall, I get the impression that HDDs are a far better and cheaper way of
>backing up data for the home user.

Overall I get the impression all your observations are biased towards
reaching your impression.

Assuming you already have a DVD writer the per GB cost of DVD media is
about 1/5th that of hard drives.

That said, media cost is one of many considerations and only becomes
significant when you have a real lot of data. Both media have significant
pros and cons, there is no clear winner. Personally I use both.
October 13, 2004 5:43:09 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Don't forget a cost of labor. For frequent repetitive tasks (backup) or
large data sets, HD has an advantage and saves a lot of time. For small (up
to a single DVD size) archive operations, DVD is the best.

"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:r76qm0heasqkt17jki46c8kfqoa811vr77@4ax.com...
> "David X" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
> >Overall, I get the impression that HDDs are a far better and cheaper way
of
> >backing up data for the home user.
>
> Overall I get the impression all your observations are biased towards
> reaching your impression.
>
> Assuming you already have a DVD writer the per GB cost of DVD media is
> about 1/5th that of hard drives.
>
> That said, media cost is one of many considerations and only becomes
> significant when you have a real lot of data. Both media have significant
> pros and cons, there is no clear winner. Personally I use both.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 5:43:09 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:43:08 +0100, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>That said, media cost is one of many considerations and only becomes
>significant when you have a real lot of data. Both media have significant
>pros and cons, there is no clear winner. Personally I use both.

I believe this is the best solution.

HD provides fast, automatable, inexpensive, high-capacity, hands-off
backup, but you have all your eggs in one basket, susceptible to power
supply failures, viruses, user error, mechanical failure, theft, etc.

DVD is slower, needs to be started and loaded manually, requires more
media, and is susceptible to dye degradation, disc delamination, UV
exposure, and such, but can easily be stored off-site, can be kept in
multiple versions, is easy to transport, etc.

It's relatively inexpensive to use both for data you really care
about.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 5:43:59 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ae9bd.309$9n5.95@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Locutus" <Drone@Uni-MatrixOne.DeltaQuadrent> wrote in message
> news:8didnbOX9roTgfDcRVn-gw@rcn.net...
>> Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
>> I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD
>> Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
>> unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
>> DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all other
>> things that will kill an HDD
>> So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run
>
> Depends on the quality of your DVD's. As people are noticing with CDR the
> dye degrades over time, and scratches can be a major problem.
> A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup,
> as if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without
> any data loss.
>
> Dan
>
>
RAID0 is not a suitable backup option, IMHO. You're twice as likely to lose
a single drive, and with it all your data.

Did you mean RAID1?

DVD-/+ RW or DVD-RAM are other options which allow you to re-use the media.

Reasonable dvd-r media is available from around 20p per disc.
--
Doug Ramage

[Watch Spam Trap]
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 5:44:00 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On 13/10/2004 Doug Ramage wrote:

>
> "Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ae9bd.309$9n5.95@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> >

[snipped]

>
> DVD-/+ RW or DVD-RAM are other options which allow you to re-use the
> media.
>
> Reasonable dvd-r media is available from around 20p per disc.

DVD-RAM is much more secure for backing up because of the way it stores
data and you get 100,000 writes - from memory it's 10,000 for DVD. If
you use the caddy type it keeps sticky fingers away as well.

--
Jeff Gaines - Damerham Hampshire UK
Posted with XanaNews 1.16.4.6
http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/d7xananews.htm
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 5:44:00 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Doug Ramage" <ramage@XXukaccountant.net> wrote in message
news:2t4m8gF1rbdvkU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ae9bd.309$9n5.95@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>> "Locutus" <Drone@Uni-MatrixOne.DeltaQuadrent> wrote in message
>> news:8didnbOX9roTgfDcRVn-gw@rcn.net...
>>> Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
>>> I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD
>>> Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
>>> unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
>>> DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all
>>> other things that will kill an HDD
>>> So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run
>>
>> Depends on the quality of your DVD's. As people are noticing with CDR the
>> dye degrades over time, and scratches can be a major problem.
>> A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup,
>> as if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without
>> any data loss.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
> RAID0 is not a suitable backup option, IMHO. You're twice as likely to
> lose a single drive, and with it all your data.
>
> Did you mean RAID1?

Yep sorry Raid 1



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 6:36:27 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote:

>A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup, as
>if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without any
>data loss.

Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server meant
they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and trashed the
whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside an active machine are
a very bad idea for long term backup.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 7:22:09 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"David X" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:416d16a0$0$18348$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
> What is the cost of DVD storage in the UK? I am in the UK so my figures
> reflect UK prices. I want to store data not music.
>
> I would welcome any comments on my posting.
>
>
> (1) I can buy a 160GB hard drive for approx £65 including delivery.
> (E.G.
> Maxtor Plus9 160GB 8MB 7200rpm from Dabs).
> The available formatted space on the HDD is about 150GB (in 4K block with
> NTFS), so this comes to 41p per GB.
>
> Sustained data transfer rates are fast (about 15 MB/s according to
> http://storagereview.com/map/lm.cgi/str and
> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/extSpeed-c.html) so the process of
> getting data to or from the HDD is relatively quick.
>
>
> (2) For CDs (not DVD) I would say the usable storage space is approx
> 500MB
> (not 750 or 800 because it is rare to completely fill a CD and I believe
> there is approx 10 percent used for error correction). I don't know what
> block size is used.
>
> I want to have a protective case and not use the very cheapest product.
> 100
> cased CD-Rs is approx £22 including delivery. I need 300 to match 150GB
> so
> the total cost is £66. This excludes costs for the CD-R burner.
>
> Data transfer rates when reading are not bad at about 3 MB/s (according to
> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/cd/perfTransfer-c.html).
>
>
> (3) DVDs. Now this is new to me. Are the following reasonable
> assumptions.
>
> Cased DVD+R or DVD-R 8x blanks are about £0.50 each (?).

Possibly but have a little patience and get a slightly slower speed. I got
4xdvd-r disks 100 for £19 works out 19p per disk or about 5p per gig.

while it is 4.7Gig dvd-r You can fit about 4.4gigs of data on one and I can
burn the whole thing in about 15 minutes.

Printable surface with no logos to you can lable them how ever you want or
simply write on them for easy archiving.

I would easily choose dvd writing over hard drive storage.

£19 gets you 100 disks on a spindle, plus I got a 240 space cd/dvd holder
for about £3 which keeps them scratch free and easy to store in a space
about 30cm long and about 10 cm wide...
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 10:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Locutus <Drone@uni-matrixone.deltaquadrent> wrote:
> Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
> I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD

This is very unlikely at present. Have you read any DVD quality tests
recently? For some products you get 50% defectives right after the
burn!

> Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
> unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
> DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,
> moisture

No. There are already instance of CDs being dertoyed by fungus!
And in addition DVD/CDs have a real problem with sunlight/

> and all other things that will kill an HDD
> So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run

This strikes me as _very_ naive.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 10:25:04 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Bitstring <416d16a0$0$18348$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.octanews.com>, from
the wonderful person David X <someone@somewhere.com> said
>What is the cost of DVD storage in the UK? I am in the UK so my figures
>reflect UK prices. I want to store data not music.
>
>I would welcome any comments on my posting.

Don't cross-post to so many groups (many people kill anything
crossposted to >3 places, on the assumption that if the OP doesn't know
which group it goes it, it won't be of much interest in any of them).

Back to the question .. cost per byte is not an interesting metric for
backups, unless you include the cost of making the backup and the cost
of securing it against whatever disaster you are backing up against.

For HDD failure protection, the simplest solution (and cheapest) is
'second copy' to another drive elsewhere on the network, or even on the
same PC. The downside is that many disasters apart from a disk crash can
take out both copies (theft, fire, lightning). The other downside is you
only have one identical copy, so there is no archival ability (e.g.
'oops I trashed that file yesterday, it's been copied to the backup
which is now trashed too, I need a copy from last week).

For proper backup you need an offsite copy .. tape or DVD or CDR will
all work, just make sure you can read the backups on whatever machine to
may need to restore them on. Tapes can be picky about being read on
other machines, and can be picky about being read at all if badly stored
for a long time. Another option is 'backup across the www' to a storage
server in a secure location .. they'll be backing that up to tape,
hopefully.

Unless you have large capacity tapes, it is pretty stupid to back up
anything more than critical data. People gaily make disk images of their
whole system, but unless you can produce =identical= hardware this is of
no use at all if your original system is stolen, burns to the ground, or
whatever. If you have the original applications on CD, or you can buy
new copies from MS, there isn't much point in wasting time and money
making copies every day/week for the rest of your life.

In a perfect world, RAID1 or RAID5 for continuous up-time even if a disk
crashes (which they are increasingly prone to do), tape backups of
anything that can't be reproduced easily .. daily ones, or weekly, or
whatever turns out to be the best tradeoff between 'cost of prevention'
and 'cost of recovering what you hadn't prevented being lost'.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 13, 2004 11:12:42 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage David X <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
> What is the cost of DVD storage in the UK? I am in the UK so my figures
> reflect UK prices. I want to store data not music.

> I would welcome any comments on my posting.

[...]

> Overall, I get the impression that HDDs are a far better and cheaper way of
> backing up data for the home user. The HDD can be re-used and if the HDD is
> plugged in (which can be harder than inserting a DVD) then the availability
> is almost instantaneous.

Your calculation is missing one point: Redundancy.

If your Disks are e.g. in a RAID5 and are surface-scanned every 2
weeks, the sytem is going to be very reliable and your overhead will
be one disk per array and some hot/cold spares. Additional costs
include hardware, power and system administration.

If your disks are kept offline, you have to take into account
the possibility of catastrophic failure of one/several disks
and should actually have all data at least on two disks. This
still might give less reliability than the first solution,
depending on storage time/conditions and the disks. If the
disks are tested periodically, reliability will increase but so
will cost.

For your CDs/DVDs you also should put everything at least on
two media. If you do regular checks of the media, reliability
will increase, but so will cost. Also reliability figures
for CDs/DVDs are much less certain that for HDDs. The
30 years or even 100 years or more ofteh quoted by many
vendors 5 years ago have turned out to be wishful thinking
in many instances. It is better today, but nobody really
knows how much better. CDR and DVD+/-R are young technologies!
No long-term experience like with HDDs, Tapes or MODs exists!
And of course while the RAID5 has very low handling overherd,
you will be juggeling CDs/DVDs for hours to burn them, verify
them and generally handle them.

Of course, depending on the reliability wanted, you can do more or
less replication and you should have off-site copies for anything
important. You cannot simply take the media price. Storage cost is a
trade-off between cost, efort (also cost) and reliability. And you
need reasonable reliability estimates and estimates of needed
reliability and storage volume to make an informed decision.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 2:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

I'll throw a spanner in the argument...
o You probably need both media types as backup
o Altho the accurate extent depends on the data's importance

One media type is 1 single point of failure:
o The DVD drive may produce bad recordings or those only it can read
---- a replacement may have difficulty reading old disks
---- DVD media could go the way of CDR media - variable
o The HD drive may fail, and is a single-instance of the *entire* dataset
---- a single backup of an entire data-set is a lot of risk

Suppose you used just DVD, and you lost the original HD:
o You have 150GB to restore, using 30 disks
---- using & restoring via CDR would be akin to floppies
---- plus if say 1 in 100 disks goes bad, you may find 1-1.5 are bad (*)
o That is going to take say 30hrs to achieve
---- and 30hrs to recreate if the data-set changes regularly

So you may want to consider:
o What part of the data-set is important?
---- data that can be regenerated is ok on HD
---- data that is absolutely critical requires redundant backups (copies)
o How often does the data-set change, or sub-sets of it change?
---- DVD-R gets more expensive the more often change is required
---- DVD-RAM whilst rewriteable & better is more expensive

So the economic answer may be HD for the bulk backup, then spread
the DVD-R cost over several months with incremental backups etc.

Another issue is whether you will backup frequently enough:
o It is very quick & easy to backup a HD to another HD
o It is a very different matter to backup to DVD-R

Whatever backup method you use, verify files regularly.
Not so long ago I had to get data off a CDR, Kodak Gold & TDK
from some years back - quality brands. More recent readers would
not read it - and a laptop drive the least, and even less with heat. It
turned out I could read the data ok, in chunks, from a freezer. As
soon as the CDR warmed up XP did the usual I/O Block Error (7).

The backup media that is most reliable is 2 different types :-)
The backup may not even exist unless you verify it - often.

One reason why companies have used cheap SATA drives.
Appliance - Near-Line storage with integral tape drive
o Faster backup to disk, then dumping out to tape
o Two backup media copies, near-line archiving re fast search/recovery

RAID is not a backup - it is availability :-)
--
Dorothy Bradbury
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 3:31:48 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Dorothy Bradbury <dorothy.bradbury@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I'll throw a spanner in the argument...
> o You probably need both media types as backup
> o Altho the accurate extent depends on the data's importance

> One media type is 1 single point of failure:
> o The DVD drive may produce bad recordings or those only it can read
> ---- a replacement may have difficulty reading old disks
> ---- DVD media could go the way of CDR media - variable
> o The HD drive may fail, and is a single-instance of the *entire* dataset
> ---- a single backup of an entire data-set is a lot of risk

> Suppose you used just DVD, and you lost the original HD:
> o You have 150GB to restore, using 30 disks
> ---- using & restoring via CDR would be akin to floppies
> ---- plus if say 1 in 100 disks goes bad, you may find 1-1.5 are bad (*)
> o That is going to take say 30hrs to achieve
> ---- and 30hrs to recreate if the data-set changes regularly

> So you may want to consider:
> o What part of the data-set is important?
> ---- data that can be regenerated is ok on HD
> ---- data that is absolutely critical requires redundant backups (copies)
> o How often does the data-set change, or sub-sets of it change?
> ---- DVD-R gets more expensive the more often change is required
> ---- DVD-RAM whilst rewriteable & better is more expensive

MOD/DVD-RAM (similar technology) is very good for smaller backups
with high reliability requirements. Also for long-term storage.

> So the economic answer may be HD for the bulk backup, then spread
> the DVD-R cost over several months with incremental backups etc.

> Another issue is whether you will backup frequently enough:
> o It is very quick & easy to backup a HD to another HD
> o It is a very different matter to backup to DVD-R

> Whatever backup method you use, verify files regularly.
> Not so long ago I had to get data off a CDR, Kodak Gold & TDK
> from some years back - quality brands. More recent readers would
> not read it - and a laptop drive the least, and even less with heat. It
> turned out I could read the data ok, in chunks, from a freezer. As
> soon as the CDR warmed up XP did the usual I/O Block Error (7).

> The backup media that is most reliable is 2 different types :-)
> The backup may not even exist unless you verify it - often.

Yes, that seems to bite a lot of people. And please compare
the data on the backup medium to the data on the main medium.
I have seen numerous occasions where there was corruption in
the transfer path. Only a compare will reliably show you this.

> One reason why companies have used cheap SATA drives.
> Appliance - Near-Line storage with integral tape drive
> o Faster backup to disk, then dumping out to tape
> o Two backup media copies, near-line archiving re fast search/recovery

Yery insightfull, all of these remarks. I do disagree a bit
about needing two different types of media. For not yet well
understood media like DVD+/-R this is certainly valid though.

> RAID is not a backup - it is availability :-)

And ease of repair! The major reason I have now all
my /root and /home on RAID is I was getting very anoyed
wasting half a day of work until the system was usable again.
Of course that is also an availability argument ;-)

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 4:12:31 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In article news:<UcSiVoEwTWbBFAVf@from.is.invalid>, GSV Three Minds in a
Can wrote:
> Don't cross-post to so many groups (many people kill anything
> crossposted to >3 places, on the assumption that if the OP doesn't know
> which group it goes it, it won't be of much interest in any of them).

<aside>
... and in doing so avoid a huge amount of junk and a few interesting
discussions.

I must say I'd find it "challenging" to dream up a post that could
legitimately be posted to more than about five groups, but I don't think
four is necessarily out of order.

The OP selected four groups for a posting which seems to me to be
reasonably on-topic for all of them ... except possibly uk.comp.homebuilt
(which is where I'm reading it, as it happens) where it is a common enough
subject fr discussion, if not strictly on-topic.
</aside>

> Back to the question .. cost per byte is not an interesting metric for
> backups, unless you include the cost of making the backup and the cost
> of securing it against whatever disaster you are backing up against.

... and, perhaps more importantly, the value of the data.

> People gaily make disk images of their whole system, but unless you can
> produce =identical= hardware this is of no use at all if your original
> system is stolen, ...

That's a good point, and one that's not made often enough.

> If you have the original applications on CD, or you can buy
> new copies from MS, there isn't much point in wasting time and money
> making copies every day/week for the rest of your life.

Also true. One might think -- especially give the time it takes to install
some large applications -- that backing up once after an install would be a
time-saver, but in general when software is installed (on Windows, that is)
it sets a cartload of registry entries that aren't easily backed up in
isolation. Backing up the whole registry isn't useful if disaster forces a
change of hardware (which will mean the system-specific parts of the
registry will no longer apply). Reinstallation is really the only safe
choice.

That registry is a pain in the proverbial, sometimes.

> In a perfect world, RAID1 or RAID5 for continuous up-time even if a disk
> crashes (which they are increasingly prone to do), tape backups of
> anything that can't be reproduced easily .. daily ones, or weekly, or
> whatever turns out to be the best tradeoff between 'cost of prevention'
> and 'cost of recovering what you hadn't prevented being lost'.

Good advice. Add to that that the daily/weekly backups (on whatever medium
they're made) should be test-restored so that you can be sure that they
*can* be restored, in the event of disaster (and that you've backed up
everything you need). Keep a spare device that can read the backups, in
case the original fails. Having a good tape backup regime is no good if,
when you need to restore some old data, you find that the tape drive is
knackered and that that type of drive is no longer available.

You can spend a fortune on backup and still not get it right -- and you
certainly can't get it all right without spending a fortune. How much you
do spend must depend on the value of the data.

Cheers,
Daniel.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 4:12:32 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Daniel James wrote:

> In article news:<UcSiVoEwTWbBFAVf@from.is.invalid>, GSV Three Minds in a
> Can wrote:
>> Don't cross-post to so many groups (many people kill anything
>> crossposted to >3 places, on the assumption that if the OP doesn't know
>> which group it goes it, it won't be of much interest in any of them).
>
> <aside>
> .. and in doing so avoid a huge amount of junk and a few interesting
> discussions.
>
> I must say I'd find it "challenging" to dream up a post that could
> legitimately be posted to more than about five groups, but I don't think
> four is necessarily out of order.
>
> The OP selected four groups for a posting which seems to me to be
> reasonably on-topic for all of them ... except possibly uk.comp.homebuilt
> (which is where I'm reading it, as it happens) where it is a common enough
> subject fr discussion, if not strictly on-topic.
> </aside>
>
>> Back to the question .. cost per byte is not an interesting metric for
>> backups, unless you include the cost of making the backup and the cost
>> of securing it against whatever disaster you are backing up against.
>
> .. and, perhaps more importantly, the value of the data.
>
>> People gaily make disk images of their whole system, but unless you can
>> produce =identical= hardware this is of no use at all if your original
>> system is stolen, ...
>
> That's a good point, and one that's not made often enough.
>
>> If you have the original applications on CD, or you can buy
>> new copies from MS, there isn't much point in wasting time and money
>> making copies every day/week for the rest of your life.
>
> Also true. One might think -- especially give the time it takes to install
> some large applications -- that backing up once after an install would be
> a time-saver, but in general when software is installed (on Windows, that
> is) it sets a cartload of registry entries that aren't easily backed up in
> isolation. Backing up the whole registry isn't useful if disaster forces a
> change of hardware (which will mean the system-specific parts of the
> registry will no longer apply). Reinstallation is really the only safe
> choice.
>
> That registry is a pain in the proverbial, sometimes.

For a large system a product such as Novell Zenworks can help deal with
this--it takes a snapshot of the system before and after an application is
installed, and after you clean up the excess baggage (something always
seems to change that has nothing to do with the installation) you can
quickly reinstall or install to other systems from the snapshot. It's also
very nice for figuring out what actually _did_ happen during the
installation when the installation hoses something.

>> In a perfect world, RAID1 or RAID5 for continuous up-time even if a disk
>> crashes (which they are increasingly prone to do), tape backups of
>> anything that can't be reproduced easily .. daily ones, or weekly, or
>> whatever turns out to be the best tradeoff between 'cost of prevention'
>> and 'cost of recovering what you hadn't prevented being lost'.
>
> Good advice. Add to that that the daily/weekly backups (on whatever medium
> they're made) should be test-restored so that you can be sure that they
> *can* be restored, in the event of disaster (and that you've backed up
> everything you need). Keep a spare device that can read the backups, in
> case the original fails. Having a good tape backup regime is no good if,
> when you need to restore some old data, you find that the tape drive is
> knackered and that that type of drive is no longer available.
>
> You can spend a fortune on backup and still not get it right -- and you
> certainly can't get it all right without spending a fortune. How much you
> do spend must depend on the value of the data.
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 5:09:38 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:16:17 -0400, "Locutus"
<Drone@Uni-MatrixOne.DeltaQuadrent> wrote:

>Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
>I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD
>Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
>unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
>DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all other things that will kill an HDD
>So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in the long run
>



DVD-RAM is used by the Pros, and out performs all other types of back up..

Also used in Pro equipment..


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. (George Carlin)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 5:09:39 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

puss@purrpurr.com wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 08:16:17 -0400, "Locutus"
> <Drone@Uni-MatrixOne.DeltaQuadrent> wrote:
>
>>Im not going to comment on the "cost per" quotes you made
>>I will say that a dvd will last 100 times longer than an HDD
>>Plus if the HDD dies you lose ALL your data
>>unless there is a fire you will not lose all the DVD/CD,s
>>DVD/CD's are easier to transport,will handle shock,moisture and all other
>>things that will kill an HDD So in conclusion DVD/CD storage is cheaper in
>>the long run
>>
>
>
>
> DVD-RAM is used by the Pros, and out performs all other types of back
> up..
>
> Also used in Pro equipment..

To which "Pros" are you referring? And in what manner does it "out perform
all other types of backup"? Capacity? Speed? Reliability?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
> that take our breath away. (George Carlin)

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 14, 2004 9:46:43 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

> MOD/DVD-RAM (similar technology) is very good for smaller backups
> with high reliability requirements. Also for long-term storage.

Indeed - I use MO for just that reason, however now also use DVD-RAM:
o MO media QC has blips - a few too many
---- Sony 540MB 3.5" -- block errors on new disks
---- Fujitsu own 3.5" -- block error on *same place* on every disk - factory format
error
o DVD-RAM has been ok - and is higher capacity
---- £ 10 will get a two-sided 9.4GB disk
---- LG-4082B will write to them once removed from the caddy

Since I use DVD-RAM once-only for archive the removal from the caddy is minor.
If bothered use cotton gloves - whatever - it's 15x MO capacity for the same price.

MO is best for the most critical backups
o It was designed for data reliability from the ground up like DLT
o It is not a converted audio standard like helical scan DAT, or DVD

However, the "real" MO systems are based around the 5.25" form-factor:
o New blue-laser ones offer a migration path to very high data capacities
o The 5.25" form factor is relatively well proven in medical/mil/industrial

For the most part, DVD-RAM offers a good half-way house:
o Reliability is good - it is Phase-Change unlike DVD+/-R & has better error correction
o Drives are cheap - so having 2 different branded drives isn't impossible (or suppliers
:-)
o Disks are cheap - 9.4GB can be had for just £6.99, sealed, a bit more elsewhere

MO is ~£200 drive & ~£10 media for 1.3GB v ~£60 drive & ~7 media for 9.4GB.
Critical stuff is best on MO, but with those media errors I think it's forget about
decades:
o Yes, backup media can last a long time - DVD-RAM probably, MO most probably
o However, it is perhaps more economic to keep changing technology every few yrs
---- because technology will offer more capacity, perhaps more reliability for less cost
---- that is particularly so with media cost as archives grow - eg, DVD-RAM v MO

Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however

If HDs are used, I prefer a "micro-PC" converted to NAS - with a few scripts to check
the data integrity progressively to another identical machine working in parallel. That
need not be particularly expensive - Mini-ITX snails don't cost much, recycle some of
the older 1U PSUs, make/re-use a case, whatever. Match solution to data criticality.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 3:27:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

David X wrote:
> What is the cost of DVD storage in the UK? I am in the UK so my figures
> reflect UK prices. I want to store data not music.
>
> I would welcome any comments on my posting.
>
>
> (1) I can buy a 160GB hard drive for approx £65 including delivery. (E.G.
> Maxtor Plus9 160GB 8MB 7200rpm from Dabs).
> The available formatted space on the HDD is about 150GB (in 4K block with
> NTFS), so this comes to 41p per GB.
>
> Sustained data transfer rates are fast (about 15 MB/s according to
> http://storagereview.com/map/lm.cgi/str and
> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/extSpeed-c.html) so the process of
> getting data to or from the HDD is relatively quick.
>
>
> (2) For CDs (not DVD) I would say the usable storage space is approx 500MB
> (not 750 or 800 because it is rare to completely fill a CD and I believe
> there is approx 10 percent used for error correction). I don't know what
> block size is used.
>
> I want to have a protective case and not use the very cheapest product. 100
> cased CD-Rs is approx £22 including delivery. I need 300 to match 150GB so
> the total cost is £66. This excludes costs for the CD-R burner.
>
> Data transfer rates when reading are not bad at about 3 MB/s (according to
> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/cd/perfTransfer-c.html).
>
>
> (3) DVDs. Now this is new to me. Are the following reasonable
> assumptions.
>
> Cased DVD+R or DVD-R 8x blanks are about £0.50 each (?).
>
> What does the nominal 4.7Gb actually hold when data is stored?
>
> Is the block size relatively large?
>
> What is the cost per GB assuming the disk is only 80% filled?
>
>
> Overall, I get the impression that HDDs are a far better and cheaper way of
> backing up data for the home user. The HDD can be re-used and if the HDD is
> plugged in (which can be harder than inserting a DVD) then the availability
> is almost instantaneous.
>
>

Well, consider also backing up to an online server. You can get a
Gigabyte of space for about $10 per month. What I'm going to do is
write a script that encrypts my most important files, and then sends
them by ftp to the online server. Then, I keep the secret key file on
only on a CD. This way, I can keep the encrypted backup files in
relatively non-secure locations, and keep only a minimal amount of
data on physical CDs. The public key is stored anywhere I need to
create encrypted files. Here's an article on how to use gnupg to do this:

http://www.somacon.com/blog/page7.php
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 5:27:11 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Dorothy Bradbury <dorothy.bradbury@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> MOD/DVD-RAM (similar technology) is very good for smaller backups
>> with high reliability requirements. Also for long-term storage.

> Indeed - I use MO for just that reason, however now also use DVD-RAM:
> o MO media QC has blips - a few too many
> ---- Sony 540MB 3.5" -- block errors on new disks
> ---- Fujitsu own 3.5" -- block error on *same place* on every disk - factory format
> error
> o DVD-RAM has been ok - and is higher capacity
> ---- £ 10 will get a two-sided 9.4GB disk
> ---- LG-4082B will write to them once removed from the caddy

> Since I use DVD-RAM once-only for archive the removal from the caddy
> is minor. If bothered use cotton gloves - whatever - it's 15x MO
> capacity for the same price.

Well, not quite. The last time I bought 3.5" 640MB MOs, I paid 5 Euro
for each. The cheapest DVD-RAM I find is the same price for 4.7GB.
That is a factor of 7. Still signifficant if you do large backups.

> MO is best for the most critical backups
> o It was designed for data reliability from the ground up like DLT
> o It is not a converted audio standard like helical scan DAT, or DVD

I agree. In 7 years regular MO usage I have still to see my first
unrecoverable read error. (I had to clean cartridtges two times,
but that resolved the problems with them completely.)

> However, the "real" MO systems are based around the 5.25" form-factor:
> o New blue-laser ones offer a migration path to very high data capacities
> o The 5.25" form factor is relatively well proven in medical/mil/industrial

Actually many hostpitals in Europe use 3.5" MOD for computer images.
They have to keep the info for 20years by law, e.g. in Germany
or Switzerland and a few of these 640MODs are enough for a day.
I would say 3.5" MOD is professional today. 5.25" MOD seems to
have stalled development some time ago.

> For the most part, DVD-RAM offers a good half-way house:
> o Reliability is good - it is Phase-Change unlike DVD+/-R &
> has better error correction
> o Drives are cheap - so having 2 different branded drives
> isn't impossible (or suppliers :-)
> o Disks are cheap - 9.4GB can be had for just £6.99, sealed,
> a bit more elsewhere

However there is the cartridge issue. Drop a DVD-RAM and it may
be gone. A MOD does not care. Also remember that MOD has 30 Million
certified overwrites while DVD-RAM without cartridge only has 10.000.
If you only do backups, that does not matter much. I also use my MODs
in "HDD mode", i.e. move around files, do small changes, etc..

> MO is ~£200 drive & ~£10 media for 1.3GB v ~£60 drive & ~7 media for 9.4GB.
> Critical stuff is best on MO, but with those media errors I think it's
> forget about decades:
> o Yes, backup media can last a long time - DVD-RAM probably, MO most probably
> o However, it is perhaps more economic to keep changing technology every
> few yrs
> ---- because technology will offer more capacity, perhaps more
> reliability for less cost
> ---- that is particularly so with media cost as archives grow - eg,
> DVD-RAM v MO

Depends. I have still about the same needs for high-reliability backups.
After I nearly lost some important stuff 7 years ago, I got a 640MB
MO drive. I still get my system and home backups on just two of these
disks and I still have all the original disks and the original drive
in use without problems. The last time I bought disks is 3 years ago,
the ~30 GB ultra-reliable storage I have is more than enough.

For the less critical stuff I keep copies on other computers.

MOD is fit to keep you Master's thesis, family photos, tax data you
need to store for decades (in some countries), scans of your degree,
in short all the things you absolutely do not want to loose. Also most
data recovery companies will convert MOD to some other format for you
for a modest fee and that type of offer should be around really long.
So even if you do not have a drive anymore in 30 years, that data
should still be accessible.

If your storage needs grow fast (my orgiginal complete systems backup
fit on just one 640MB MOD), then MOD is not the right solution
today. (It was by far the cheapest 7 years ago. And it is still
around. That should tell you something.)

> Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
> o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
> o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
> ---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
> ---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however

Actually you should script this stuff. I am still surprised that MS
does not deliver a proper and easy to use backup tool with thir OS.
It is not that difficult. I use unix tar, perhaps one of the oldest
UNIX tools with good success.

> If HDs are used, I prefer a "micro-PC" converted to NAS - with a few
Yes, that is what I use at home for the less critical stuff.
A Mini-ITX box with a 120GB HDD is just fine for this.

> scripts to check the data integrity progressively to another
> identical machine working in parallel. That need not be particularly
> expensive - Mini-ITX snails don't cost much, recycle some of the
> older 1U PSUs, make/re-use a case, whatever. Match solution to data
> criticality.

.... and to data amounth and actuallity. Only then will you get
something satisfactory.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 11:01:00 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <hbbqm09lqpncaoabv6hp0ovlb9dgsp8680@4ax.com>, nospam@nospam.invalid
says...
> "Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup, as
> >if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without any
> >data loss.
>
> Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server meant
> they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and trashed the
> whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside an active machine are
> a very bad idea for long term backup.
>
>
>
Fell over??? As in dropped to the floor?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 1:31:58 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On 13 Oct 2004, Major ChrisB wrote:

>> (3) DVDs. Now this is new to me. Are the following
>> reasonable assumptions.
>>
>> Cased DVD+R or DVD-R 8x blanks are about £0.50 each (?).


> Possibly but have a little patience and get a slightly slower
> speed. I got 4xdvd-r disks 100 for £19 works out 19p per disk
> or about 5p per gig.

What is the failure rate of your burns with these DVDs?

If you have zero manufacturing defects and zero burn failures then it
is impressive.


> while it is 4.7Gig dvd-r You can fit about 4.4gigs of data on
> one and I can burn the whole thing in about 15 minutes.
>
> Printable surface with no logos to you can lable them how ever
> you want or simply write on them for easy archiving.
>
> I would easily choose dvd writing over hard drive storage.
>
> £19 gets you 100 disks on a spindle, plus I got a 240 space
> cd/dvd holder for about £3 which keeps them scratch free and
> easy to store in a space about 30cm long and about 10 cm wide...
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 5:49:49 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

phorbin <phorbin1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In article <hbbqm09lqpncaoabv6hp0ovlb9dgsp8680@4ax.com>, nospam@nospam.invalid
>says...
>> "Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup, as
>> >if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without any
>> >data loss.
>>
>> Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server meant
>> they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and trashed the
>> whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside an active machine are
>> a very bad idea for long term backup.
>>
>Fell over??? As in dropped to the floor?

Fell over as in stopped working properly - I don't know the details

Personally I have seen Win2k trash a (cheap) stripped array because one of
the drives was a bit sticky on power up. The RAID BIOS didn't recognise the
set and w2k thought the remaining drive was corrupt and attempted to 'fix'
it on boot without any operator intervention.

A RAID 0/5 protects you against drive failure, it offers no protection
against all the other ways data can be lost.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 6:30:11 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

nospam wrote:
> "Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup, as
> >if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without any
> >data loss.
>
> Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server meant
> they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and trashed the
> whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside an active machine are
> a very bad idea for long term backup.

Also, FILES get corrupted or otherwise damaged without affecting the
hard disc. It's very nice to have a week's daily backups and a month's
weekly backups on tape (9 tapes).

Best wishes,
--
Michael Salem
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 6:44:20 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <958360F96870317E35@130.133.1.4>, david@mail.invalid says...
> On 13 Oct 2004, Major ChrisB wrote:
>
> >> (3) DVDs. Now this is new to me. Are the following
> >> reasonable assumptions.
> >>
> >> Cased DVD+R or DVD-R 8x blanks are about £0.50 each (?).
>
>
> > Possibly but have a little patience and get a slightly slower
> > speed. I got 4xdvd-r disks 100 for £19 works out 19p per disk
> > or about 5p per gig.
>
> What is the failure rate of your burns with these DVDs?
>
> If you have zero manufacturing defects and zero burn failures then it
> is impressive.
>
>

Why so? You can get 4x ritek discs for £20 for 100. You'd be hard pushed
to find better discs, imo. I used to be a verbatim man, but after
experiencing read errors on discs written only 2 or 3 years ago...
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 6:44:21 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:44:20 +0100, mrlipring <mrlipring@h0tmail.com>
wrote:

>In article <958360F96870317E35@130.133.1.4>, david@mail.invalid says...
>> On 13 Oct 2004, Major ChrisB wrote:

>> What is the failure rate of your burns with these DVDs?
>>
>> If you have zero manufacturing defects and zero burn failures then it
>> is impressive.
>
>Why so? You can get 4x ritek discs for £20 for 100. You'd be hard pushed
>to find better discs, imo. I used to be a verbatim man, but after
>experiencing read errors on discs written only 2 or 3 years ago...

You won't know if the Riteks suffer from this same problem for another
2 or 3 years, right? It's also important to remember that Verbatim
isn't a manufacturer, but a vendor. Verbatim-labeled discs are made
by whoever won the most recent contract (including Ritek).

Ritek used to make awful CDRs - some of the worst available - but I
understand their quality is better on DVDs. Haven't tried them
myself, though.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 8:33:59 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In message <2t8nbfF1sqpmvU1@uni-berlin.de>, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net>
writes


>> Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
>> o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
>> o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
>> ---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
>> ---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however
>
>Actually you should script this stuff. I am still surprised that MS
>does not deliver a proper and easy to use backup tool with thir OS.

They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
completely undocumented.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 15, 2004 8:33:59 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In message <MPG.1bd9e1413d2f4c1b989818@News.individual.NET>, Michael
Salem <a$-b$1@ms3.org.uk> writes
>nospam wrote:
>> "Sideshow" <sideshow_j10nospamcunts@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >A raid0 or raid5 array is the most suitable option for long term backup, as
>> >if one drive fizzucks you can just replace it with a new one without any
>> >data loss.
>>
>> Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server meant
>> they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and trashed the
>> whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside an active machine are
>> a very bad idea for long term backup.
>
>Also, FILES get corrupted or otherwise damaged without affecting the
>hard disc. It's very nice to have a week's daily backups and a month's
>weekly backups on tape (9 tapes).

Pretty much essential. In my experience the main use for backup tapes is
to restore files that users have deleted. A RAID array doesn't protect
against that. In fact I haven't ever needed to use a backup tape for any
other purpose, and I've been working with computers for 25 years.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 16, 2004 5:34:47 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Bernard Peek wrote:

> In my experience the main use for backup tapes is
> to restore files that users have deleted. A RAID array doesn't protect
> against that.

You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
overwritten (oldest first). There are programs for Windows that add
similar functionality I believe. Shouldn't be used to replace a backup
system (for several obvious reasons), but very handy.

Best wishes,
--
Michael Salem
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 16, 2004 7:28:18 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
> In message <2t8nbfF1sqpmvU1@uni-berlin.de>, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net>
> writes


>>> Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
>>> o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
>>> o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
>>> ---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
>>> ---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however
>>
>>Actually you should script this stuff. I am still surprised that MS
>>does not deliver a proper and easy to use backup tool with thir OS.

> They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
> to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
> completely undocumented.

The last word may be the key. That would be the missing "easy
to use". Anyway, I just observe this. I use Linux for all
my backups, including those of Windows installations. ;-)

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 16, 2004 7:55:58 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <k920n0tgf6uufknpq7jetamudguf5o9qlo@4ax.com>,
neil.maxwell@intel.com says...
> On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:44:20 +0100, mrlipring <mrlipring@h0tmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <958360F96870317E35@130.133.1.4>, david@mail.invalid says...
> >> On 13 Oct 2004, Major ChrisB wrote:
>
> >> What is the failure rate of your burns with these DVDs?
> >>
> >> If you have zero manufacturing defects and zero burn failures then it
> >> is impressive.
> >
> >Why so? You can get 4x ritek discs for £20 for 100. You'd be hard pushed
> >to find better discs, imo. I used to be a verbatim man, but after
> >experiencing read errors on discs written only 2 or 3 years ago...
>
> You won't know if the Riteks suffer from this same problem for another
> 2 or 3 years, right? It's also important to remember that Verbatim
> isn't a manufacturer, but a vendor. Verbatim-labeled discs are made
> by whoever won the most recent contract (including Ritek).
>
> Ritek used to make awful CDRs - some of the worst available - but I
> understand their quality is better on DVDs. Haven't tried them
> myself, though.
>
>
> --
> Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
>

well, i've got riteks that are a year or 2 old, and they're fine so far.
Time will tell.

I referred to verb discs, as verbatim were supposedly the kings of
quality, only choosing the best discs etc. Lifetime swap guarantees etc.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 16, 2004 3:28:18 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In message <MPG.1bda7cfe485cf154989819@News.individual.NET>, Michael
Salem <a$-b$1@ms3.org.uk> writes
>Bernard Peek wrote:
>
>> In my experience the main use for backup tapes is
>> to restore files that users have deleted. A RAID array doesn't protect
>> against that.
>
>You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
>with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
>overwritten (oldest first). There are programs for Windows that add
>similar functionality I believe. Shouldn't be used to replace a backup
>system (for several obvious reasons), but very handy.

Undelete has been available since the days of MS-DOS but it does rely on
the space still being available and doesn't prioritise the use of
"empty" space. Thanks for the info on Netware though.

And yes, this ("shadow copies") is a new feature of the latest versions
of Microsoft software. As I understand it to be able to fully use the
feature you need to be running Office 2003 and store the data files on a
Windows 2003 server.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 16, 2004 3:36:35 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In message <2tbiqiF1uinm1U2@uni-berlin.de>, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net>
writes


>> They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
>> to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
>> completely undocumented.
>
>The last word may be the key. That would be the missing "easy
>to use". Anyway, I just observe this. I use Linux for all
>my backups, including those of Windows installations. ;-)

ntbackup /? >ntbackup.txt

Instant documentation. I know of a site that exists to provide
ultra-reliable offsite backup over the Internet. They do all of their
own backups using ntbackup and batch files. Once you understand the
command-line switches you can write batch files quite easily. There are
versions available that will backup Exchange Server and SQL Server
systems too.




--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 16, 2004 6:10:09 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

I wrote:

> >You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
> >with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
> >overwritten (oldest first).
....

Bernard Peek wrote:

> Undelete has been available since the days of MS-DOS but it does rely on
> the space still being available and doesn't prioritise the use of
> "empty" space. Thanks for the info on Netware though.

Not at all the same thing. Many's the time I have slaved to try to
recover a deleted MS-DOS file which had been stored on non-contiguous
disc sectors. The more advanced undelete systems such as Windows Recycle
bin would only store what had been deleted on purpose. But Netware would
store all files deleted in any way; for example. multiple copies of a
document being edited. No good for databases though, as the data files
are directly modified, rather than being backed up and replaced by a
newer version.

> And yes, this ("shadow copies") is a new feature of the latest versions
> of Microsoft software. As I understand it to be able to fully use the
> feature you need to be running Office 2003 and store the data files on a
> Windows 2003 server.

To be useful you need to store all files. I understand that programs
that provide the same functionality as Netware for Windows are
available.

Best wishes,
--
Michael Salem
October 17, 2004 9:11:14 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

I have used Nero to make a backup of drive C: to 19 DVDs . The messages were
all correct but I cannot restore now ,I have reinstalled windows XP home
but Nero wants a file that it did not write on the DVDs and if I try to do
it from the disk it starts a DOS prog then complains about the disk being
accessed directly and stops.

I thought I was using good software for the purpose it was meant for and I
would be able to restore. a lot of what is on there is un replaceable and
I thought I did the right thing by backing up . the Nero help files are
not much help.

what to do now?

Thanks for your help.

Gary
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 17, 2004 9:11:15 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

.. --------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F2D8973.EBCD8386@...

( No Pipsqueaks have been able to prove ANY of the above is a LIBEL )
( -- despite Mikey claimed to have proof of misquotes !! )

Gary wrote:
>
> I have used Nero to make a backup of drive C: to 19 DVDs . The messages were
> all correct but I cannot restore now ,I have reinstalled windows XP home
> but Nero wants a file that it did not write on the DVDs and if I try to do
> it from the disk it starts a DOS prog then complains about the disk being
> accessed directly and stops.
>
> I thought I was using good software for the purpose it was meant for and I
> would be able to restore. a lot of what is on there is un replaceable and
> I thought I did the right thing by backing up . the Nero help files are
> not much help.

13. How can I restore a partition or hard drive backup created with Nero
BackItUp?

http://www.nero.com/en/FAQs_Data_CD.html#13
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 18, 2004 7:23:25 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

> Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server
> meant they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and
> trashed the whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside
> an active machine are a very bad idea for long term backup.

I met a network manager in Indiana, US who fell for that one, and I
just know there are plenty more where he came from. :-/ RAID is good,
it's just no substitute for a proper backup strategy.

- Andy Ball
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 20, 2004 8:50:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr (More info?)

In article <p0hvm0tgg5faj3e9e8mrp5qi1nmkhdsrv5@4ax.com>,
nospam@nospam.invalid says...
> Personally I have seen Win2k trash a (cheap) stripped array because one of
> the drives was a bit sticky on power up. The RAID BIOS didn't recognise the
> set and w2k thought the remaining drive was corrupt and attempted to 'fix'
> it on boot without any operator intervention.

Yeah, I've seen Win2k CHKDSK a drive (RAID5 array) into
oblivion... was rather entertaining in a very demented
sort of way.

Personally, I prefer a tiered system:

- RAID for the data and O/S drives (goal is keeping the
system running, even if a drive fails, one or more hot-
spare drives are required if you want minimum downtime)

- A large-capacity drive in the same or another server
that is used for quick-n-dirty mirroring and recovery of
deleted files, usually sync'd anywhere from once daily
to as often every few hours. Most tape backup software
now allows for "virtual tape" where you write to a hard
drive instead of a tape.

- Tape or removable drives for the daily backup,
tape/drive should go offsite at least weekly if not
daily.

- Optical for long-term archival if the data can be
managed in 4GB chunks. Otherwise, use tape for long-
term. Always make sure that a particular bit of data is
on at least 3 different pieces of media. (Generational
archives work well... if you can fit 6 months on a piece
of media, make one backup every month of all data
generated within the last 6 months. You'll have 5-6
tapes with the bit of data that you need to restore.)

IOW, don't put all your eggs in a single basket, and
always have a way to verify that the contents of backup
media are still unaltered (MD5/SHA/QuickPar PAR2 files).
Data is expensive, and backup hardware/software is like
buying an insurance policy for your house. Even $4k
tape drives start to look cheap when you consider the
price of the data.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 21, 2004 10:34:54 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Hello Dorothy,

DB> For the most part, DVD-RAM offers a good half-way house:

I'm keeping my eyes open for a nice SCSI DVD-RAM drive. Perhaps they
are mostly IEEE-1394 these days though.

DB> ...even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall...

If I remember rightly, XCOPY's "verify" option verifies that what it
wrote is readable, not necesarily that it's what was in the source
file.

DB> If HDs are used, I prefer a "micro-PC" converted to NAS...
> ...Mini-ITX snails don't cost much...

If only VIA would make an Eden board with Ultra160 or Ultra320 built
in! :-)

- Andy Ball
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 21, 2004 12:46:36 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Andy Ball wrote:

> DB> ...even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall...
>
> If I remember rightly, XCOPY's "verify" option verifies that what it
> wrote is readable, not necesarily that it's what was in the source
> file.

Go and get XXCOPY from www.xxcopy.com - it's freeware and does a
complete copy & verify.



--
Mushroom
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 21, 2004 3:36:19 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Mushroom wrote:
>
> Go and get XXCOPY from www.xxcopy.com - it's freeware and does a
> complete copy & verify.

But I think that this still has the problem, when used for barking up,
of not deleting from the backup files that have been deleted from the
source.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 21, 2004 4:05:28 PM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On 21/10/2004 Michael Salem wrote:

> Mushroom wrote:
> >
> > Go and get XXCOPY from www.xxcopy.com - it's freeware and does a
> > complete copy & verify.
>
> But I think that this still has the problem, when used for barking
> up, of not deleting from the backup files that have been deleted from
> the source.

I think you're backing up the wrong tree here :-)

--
Jeff Gaines - Damerham Hampshire UK
Posted with XanaNews 1.16.4.6
http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/d7xananews.htm
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 23, 2004 7:17:47 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage half_pint <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> "guv" <guv69@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:1hbjn01pacrv3l821k4a7l646t23hsnvef@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:20:49 +0100, "half_pint" <me@privacy.net>
>> wrote:
[...]
>> Oh ok guys. Wait for 3 years and all will be well.

> Well I ws mainly talking about CD's but DVD have the same problems.

> I cannot use my computer whilst burning and thats a problem.

> My older cd drive dont work anymore either (occasionally works).
> Its just too much hassle.
> LIfe is too shor to burn media!!!

> How long will it take you to find a file on 300 DVD's?
> A month?

I think that is the key issue here. Of course you can do copies
of all data to 2 or more media. of course you can verify all
your media once a month and re-burn those with problems.
(Incidentially I do complete surface scans of most of mu HDDs
once a month, but that is completely automatised...).
But how much time will that cost? How mind-numbing will the
process be? Better get a job flipping burgers in that time
and buy external HDDs for the money earned!

> I have a big box full of floppies, another full of CD's
> do i want another full of DVD'S?

I recently copied all my ATARI ST floppies to one MOD. Took
almost forever but now I can find stuff and there is no
media decay anymore.

As for CDs, I find that I burn very few. Most of those are boot-CDs
(Knoppix), making copies of my (bought) music CDs or copies of student
theses to be included in the printed versions. I recently started
putting Knoppix on CD-RW (700MB CD-RW finally being available) so it
will be even less now.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 23, 2004 7:20:47 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

guv wrote:
>
> How much would you consume fitting all these HDs you would need to
> buy? Burning a 4.7GB disc is hardly an issue. Even at 2x its only 30
> mins. Go get yourself a 16x burner if you are counting seconds.

I find DVD media to be incredibly unreliable.

Using a pretty nippy PC, a £300 (at the time) Sony DVD burner and £1 a
pop branded DVD media.

I've had discs that haven't burned/verified okay, then a few months
later gone back to them and Windows just sees them as empty media. They
may have one or two scuffs on, but nothing a CD would complain about.

DVD's I've bought from stores have become unglued after little play.

They're an absolute waste of time, and a very much over-hyped medium.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
October 23, 2004 7:20:48 AM

Archived from groups: uk.media.dvd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.periphs.cdr,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage NoSpam <nospam@pipex.net> wrote:
> guv wrote:
>>
>> How much would you consume fitting all these HDs you would need to
>> buy? Burning a 4.7GB disc is hardly an issue. Even at 2x its only 30
>> mins. Go get yourself a 16x burner if you are counting seconds.

> I find DVD media to be incredibly unreliable.

> Using a pretty nippy PC, a £300 (at the time) Sony DVD burner and £1 a
> pop branded DVD media.

> I've had discs that haven't burned/verified okay, then a few months
> later gone back to them and Windows just sees them as empty media. They
> may have one or two scuffs on, but nothing a CD would complain about.

> DVD's I've bought from stores have become unglued after little play.

> They're an absolute waste of time, and a very much over-hyped medium.

I could not agree more. Yet for some reason there are people that
keep kidding themselves about what CDs and DVDs are: Cheap,
mass-market media with the lowest reliability the manufacturers
think they can get away with. I wonder whether the perople that
do not get this are trying to convince themselves that their
set-up is reliable. Denial is not a good strategy to approach
a technological question!

I get the urge to buy a DVD burner about once every two months
or so. Usually does not take much research to get rid of it
again.

What saddens me is that it looks like blue-ray is going the
same way: The cartridge is likely to be dropped, a massive
indicator that price if a far bigger concern than reliability.

I will stay with 3.5" MOD for my critical stuff and RAID5 + copies
on several computers for less critical stuff.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
!