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IDE RAID- Major problem need to save my data

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November 27, 2004 9:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
with the same RAID chipset. Even if I throw the computer out, I really
need to save my data. My questions are:

1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
need to boot or anything else).

2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?

Thanks
November 28, 2004 5:43:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

MC wrote:
> I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
> two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
> long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
> with the same RAID chipset. Even if I throw the computer out, I really
> need to save my data. My questions are:
>
> 1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
> the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
> drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
> need to boot or anything else).
>
> 2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
> can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
> software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?
>
> Thanks

I think your best bet is to find an add-in card with the same Promise
chipset.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
November 28, 2004 1:02:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On 27 Nov 2004 18:07:27 -0800, michaeljc70@hotmail.com (MC)
wrote:

>I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
>two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
>long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
>with the same RAID chipset.

What does "shot" mean?
Some common failings like failed capacitors or inoperative
bios can be relatively inexpensively fixed, if you don't
have the inclination to do so yourself... especially if you
only need the board operable long enough to copy off data.

>Even if I throw the computer out, I really
>need to save my data. My questions are:
>
>1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
>the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
>drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
>need to boot or anything else).

No, the odds are bad, typically it won't work... but you
might find a promise card with same chipset. Often
motherboards use what they call a "Promise Lite" bios but
it's the same full-featured RAID chip you'd find on a card
(one having same Promise ATA(nnn) chip on it of course.

>
>2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
>can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
>software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?

No, you definitely can't get that data that way.

What motherboard was it? Is the rest of the system operable
still, for example you have a working CPU and memory
available?
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
November 28, 2004 4:47:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage MC <michaeljc70@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
> two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
> long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
> with the same RAID chipset. Even if I throw the computer out, I really
> need to save my data. My questions are:

> 1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
> the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
> drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
> need to boot or anything else).

Forget it.

> 2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
> can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
> software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?

NO. RAID from different manufacturers are usually (and I think
intentionally) incompatible. It is not the data arrangement on the
disk, but the descriptor block that stores meta information.

Incidentially that is one of the strong arguments for software-RAID,
since you can access it with entirely different hardware as long
as the software can still be installed.

Best option: Ask Promise tech support which of their products can
read your disks and then get that.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
November 29, 2004 2:24:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

michaeljc70@hotmail.com (MC) wrote in
news:289a46d0.0411271807.428f97a8@posting.google.com:

> I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
> two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
> long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
> with the same RAID chipset. Even if I throw the computer out, I really
> need to save my data. My questions are:
>
> 1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
> the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
> drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
> need to boot or anything else).
>
> 2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
> can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
> software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?
>
> Thanks

I would bet there are at least 6 of your shot board on Ebay right now.

1) and 2): no

--
Peder (Please reply to group only, email invalid)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
November 30, 2004 11:41:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

Now do you see what I've been talkin' bout "Kony?"

or do you still think all raid implementations are equally useful &
time-saving?

I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 12:29:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:41:05 GMT, Curious George
<cg@email.net> wrote:

>Now do you see what I've been talkin' bout "Kony?"

You don't seem to see what I've been talking about. I
didn't suggest RAID0 here EITHER.

>
>or do you still think all raid implementations are equally useful &
>time-saving?

I never advocate RAID0 unless user has a viable additional
backup. Generally speaking I typically recommend against
RAID 0 even when it's the expressed goal of the poster.
There ARE other alternatives than just SCSI or RAID0 ATA,
but you ignored this in a prior thread because it didn't
suit your argument.

>I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
>sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..

"Hope"? This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.
I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...

There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
controller with same/similar bios will work. Towards that
end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
might be easier to use a PCI card to recover, since flashing
a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
RAID bios version used on the old board (if manufacturer
didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
determining this), in the off chance that the default bios
on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
bios to ensure same raid bios version.
December 1, 2004 2:03:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

kony wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:41:05 GMT, Curious George
> <cg@email.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Now do you see what I've been talkin' bout "Kony?"
>
>
> You don't seem to see what I've been talking about. I
> didn't suggest RAID0 here EITHER.
>
>
>>or do you still think all raid implementations are equally useful &
>>time-saving?
>
>
> I never advocate RAID0 unless user has a viable additional
> backup. Generally speaking I typically recommend against
> RAID 0 even when it's the expressed goal of the poster.
> There ARE other alternatives than just SCSI or RAID0 ATA,
> but you ignored this in a prior thread because it didn't
> suit your argument.
>
>
>>I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
>>sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..
>
>
> "Hope"? This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
> thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
> data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.
> I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
> RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...
>
> There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
> logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
> *only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
> controller with same/similar bios will work.

Are you sure no motherboard RAID stores configuration info
on the motherboard?

Towards that
> end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
> might be easier to use a PCI card to recover, since flashing
> a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
> RAID bios version used on the old board (if manufacturer
> didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
> motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
> determining this), in the off chance that the default bios
> on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
> There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
> http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
> that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
> original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
> bios to ensure same raid bios version.


--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 2:13:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:29:38 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:41:05 GMT, Curious George
><cg@email.net> wrote:
>
>>Now do you see what I've been talkin' bout "Kony?"
>
>You don't seem to see what I've been talking about. I
>didn't suggest RAID0 here EITHER.

<Sigh>

of course you didn't endorse the config he was already using. It died
before anybody got the chance to dissuade him.

>>or do you still think all raid implementations are equally useful &
>>time-saving?
>
>I never advocate RAID0 unless user has a viable additional
>backup. Generally speaking I typically recommend against
>RAID 0 even when it's the expressed goal of the poster.

Of course. anybody would

>There ARE other alternatives than just SCSI or RAID0 ATA,
>but you ignored this in a prior thread because it didn't
>suit your argument.

That doesn't even make sense. I assume you are referring to a more
recent case of you demonstrating no concept of consistency of logic,
argument, or discussion. If only you would maintain focus on the
points actually made in a thread as well as you fixate on your own
inventions.

>>I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
>>sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..
>
>"Hope"?

Different controllers and raid software store the configuration in
different places (not always on drives or recovered from the drives)
and use it differently for recovery purposes. I "hope" that "this"
mobo can reconstruct the controller config from the drives and there
is good flexibility for swap out with similar or identical HW. Yes
this all seems doable but it is not clear to me how much of a PITA the
whole thing is going to be (including locating the 'right' HW).

>This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
>thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
>data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.

Well of course, but how much can a novice really learn from manuals.
They learn what's important from doing (& from getting burnt).

>I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
>RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...

Not really making an ata raid comment per se. Only highlighting that
not all RAID HW & implemetations are equal (from a useability,
convenience, etc. standpoint) and sometime you can encounter a real
PITA for any number or reasons - including not being able to get an
identical board, compatibility with other readily available boards,
etc. Of course some product lines try harder to insulate you from
troubles - but that's not really the point I'm making.

>There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
>logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
>*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
>controller with same/similar bios will work. Towards that
>end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
>might be easier to use a PCI card to recover,

so all Promise cards & onboard chips are totally compatible? config,
CHS translation, LBA, driver always identical?
(really asking here)

> since flashing
>a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
>RAID bios version used on the old board

Huh? you're going to flash some PCI card with what? for what
purpose? How many variables are you going to change during the
recovery process? Normally all software levels have to match to work
properly (esp/incl driver). The more complicated you make this the
more likely you're going to muck things up - including messing up the
new raid card.

Maybe he should image the drives or backup certain sectors before
trying any suggestions esp w' experimenting w' different mobos or
cards?

> (if manufacturer
>didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
>motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
>determining this),

That would truly be magic as the mobo is toast & he can't locate
another. (This is where those multi-year warranties come in handy).

You mean from the image file DL'ed from the manufacturer? How does
that help if he doesn't know 'which' BIOS level he was using on the
original board?

> in the off chance that the default bios
>on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
>There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
>http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
>that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
>original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
>bios to ensure same raid bios version.

but the mobo is toast...
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 4:08:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:03:53 GMT, CJT <abujlehc@prodigy.net>
wrote:


>> There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
>> logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
>> *only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
>> controller with same/similar bios will work.
>
>Are you sure no motherboard RAID stores configuration info
>on the motherboard?

I don't need to be sure of it do I? I didn't set up the
RAID. Yes, I am sure the OP's RAID config is stored
entirely on the drives.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 4:45:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:13:30 GMT, Curious George
<cg@email.net> wrote:



>
>>>I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
>>>sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..
>>
>>"Hope"?
>
>Different controllers and raid software store the configuration in
>different places (not always on drives or recovered from the drives)
>and use it differently for recovery purposes. I "hope" that "this"
>mobo can reconstruct the controller config from the drives and there
>is good flexibility for swap out with similar or identical HW. Yes
>this all seems doable but it is not clear to me how much of a PITA the
>whole thing is going to be (including locating the 'right' HW).

Again, an example of why you shouldn't be comparing or
contrasting, because you don't have the needed information
to do so.

It's not "reconstruct", nor a matter of flexibility. It's a
matter of using same controller and similar enough bios
version that there wasn't a sweeping change. In other
words, the chipset manufacturer does document if/when bios
changes are significant enough to cause loss of data. User
should not write to drive, merely hook it up and try it. If
the data is not readable then a look at the raid bios notes
is needed to determine where the version break-point was
that changed the parameters... and use the appropriate bios
version. This is usually not necessary, I only mentioned it
as a worst-case scenario.


>
>>This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
>>thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
>>data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.
>
>Well of course, but how much can a novice really learn from manuals.
>They learn what's important from doing (& from getting burnt).

Yes, this is why it's important to learn how BEFORE any
expectations of vital data storage... and at the very least,
have the restorable backup.

>
>>I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
>>RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...
>
>Not really making an ata raid comment per se. Only highlighting that
>not all RAID HW & implemetations are equal (from a useability,
>convenience, etc. standpoint) and sometime you can encounter a real
>PITA for any number or reasons - including not being able to get an
>identical board, compatibility with other readily available boards,
>etc. Of course some product lines try harder to insulate you from
>troubles - but that's not really the point I'm making.

I agree, but fortunately when one sticks to a very common
chipset with config-on-drives as these are, it's very easy
to recovery from a controller/board failure.

>
>>There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
>>logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
>>*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
>>controller with same/similar bios will work. Towards that
>>end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
>>might be easier to use a PCI card to recover,
>
>so all Promise cards & onboard chips are totally compatible? config,
>CHS translation, LBA, driver always identical?
>(really asking here)

I never suggested they were. All of the same chipsets are
compatible with same bios versions. Some of the chipsets
do support configs made by others, for example a Fasttrack66
can be read by a FastTrack100, IIRC, but only in bios prior
to introduction of 48bit LBA... or perhaps it was a
different version-break point, I'd have to look it up.
There are sufficient Promise chipset products that this
isn't necessary, and there may've only been one Promise
ATA133 chipset integrated on motherboards... I only recall
one.


>
>> since flashing
>>a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
>>RAID bios version used on the old board
>
>Huh? you're going to flash some PCI card with what? for what
>purpose?

Did you read what I wrote?
PCI controller card, flash different bios version, for
purpose of reading data IF the PCI card had a significantly
older or newer bios not compatible with the bios used on the
motherboard controller. You might have to do it before
you'd realize the simplicity in doing so.

>How many variables are you going to change during the
>recovery process?

This is really easy for someone accustomed to dealing with
Promise controllers:

- Same chipset
- If default/shipping bios doesn't work, flash different
bios per previous controller bios revision

What is hard about that? It takes about 1/10 the time it
took to write your post.

>Normally all software levels have to match to work
>properly (esp/incl driver). The more complicated you make this the
>more likely you're going to muck things up - including messing up the
>new raid card.

This is not complicated, you must have some preconceived
notion interfering with the simple two-step process... and
typically it's a one-step process, bios flashing isn't
usually needed, I only offered the info "just in case" it
was.

>
>Maybe he should image the drives or backup certain sectors before
>trying any suggestions esp w' experimenting w' different mobos or
>cards?

It's real simple - Don't write to the drives, including NOT
making ANY changes in the RAID bios setup. The drives will
be read OK with zero config or you don't have the right
controller or bios version. Drivers are NOT needed for
RAID0. Well, if they were formatted as NTFS you do need a
driver for that, but it has nothing to do with the RAID or
controller... just windows NT/etc... hook it up in a working
system with the PCI card will be fine, and as with any other
hardware, you already had to know "somehow" what driver to
use, right? This is no different, all the needed info,
driver, is either included on the CDROM with product or
downloadable from manufacturer.

>
>> (if manufacturer
>>didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
>>motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
>>determining this),
>
>That would truly be magic as the mobo is toast & he can't locate
>another. (This is where those multi-year warranties come in handy).

Nope, he'd either have to remember flashing the bios or
enquire about what bios version shipped on his revision of
the motherboard... or just download a bios from mobo
manufacturer... you don't need a board to determine info
about bios.

>
>You mean from the image file DL'ed from the manufacturer? How does
>that help if he doesn't know 'which' BIOS level he was using on the
>original board?

You're making it seem hard, when it's usually not.
Why? What's the point of all this when it's relatively easy
to do it?

Just don't write to the drive. If you have one RAID bios
that doesn't work, try a different one. Whatever clues the
individual can gather to narrow down the bios version, might
help reduce the time it takes trying different bios, but
ultimately it's doable, repeatable, not luck or chance or
hope, etc, etc.

>
>> in the off chance that the default bios
>>on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
>>There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
>>http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
>>that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
>>original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
>>bios to ensure same raid bios version.
>
>but the mobo is toast...

Those tools work with bios images, have no need for the
original board. As with anything else, I advise practicing
with them before doing something critical like flashing a
modded bios to a board... BUT, if user is capable of
flashing EEPROM another way too, it matters even less. I
suppose what it all boils down to is that the more skill
you have the more you can get away with doing... so long as
you already have a recovery plan rather than just a vague
concept that there might be some way to recover... which is
drifting off topic

That is a fair reason to be even more weary of motherboard
RAID controllers instead of separate PCI card, since the
odds of a motherboard failing are far higher than a RAID
card failing... especially in PC grade boards.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 6:56:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 01:45:59 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:13:30 GMT, Curious George
><cg@email.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>>>I just hope that if he gets a 'new' motherboard (like from ebay or
>>>>sometihing) the onboard controller can get the config off the drives..
>>>
>>>"Hope"?
>>
>>Different controllers and raid software store the configuration in
>>different places (not always on drives or recovered from the drives)
>>and use it differently for recovery purposes. I "hope" that "this"
>>mobo can reconstruct the controller config from the drives and there
>>is good flexibility for swap out with similar or identical HW. Yes
>>this all seems doable but it is not clear to me how much of a PITA the
>>whole thing is going to be (including locating the 'right' HW).
>
>Again, an example of why you shouldn't be comparing or
>contrasting, because you don't have the needed information
>to do so.
>
>It's not "reconstruct", nor a matter of flexibility. It's a
>matter of using same controller and similar enough bios
>version that there wasn't a sweeping change. In other
>words, the chipset manufacturer does document if/when bios
>changes are significant enough to cause loss of data. User
>should not write to drive, merely hook it up and try it. If
>the data is not readable then a look at the raid bios notes
>is needed to determine where the version break-point was
>that changed the parameters... and use the appropriate bios
>version. This is usually not necessary, I only mentioned it
>as a worst-case scenario.

Uh huh. - so the logical drive configuration is simply read off the
disks during post and need not be restored to the controller? That
makes sense as NVRAM adds cost.

Well that's certainly an argument for software or hardware assisted
software raid. If the controller is the only problem than it's fast
to be up and running again (even if you are out of warranty even
drastic solutions are cheap & fast).

It's also an argument against it - if the dying controller or other
mishap also marked drives as offline you want to recover - or if you
are performing tests and want to quickly switch between several
configs.


>>>This is an example of what I'd posted in a prior
>>>thread, that I advise one not to learn _while_ setting up a
>>>data storage subsystem but prior to doing so.
>>
>>Well of course, but how much can a novice really learn from manuals.
>>They learn what's important from doing (& from getting burnt).
>
>Yes, this is why it's important to learn how BEFORE any
>expectations of vital data storage... and at the very least,
>have the restorable backup.
>
>>
>>>I also suspect you've not spend enough time dealing with ATA
>>>RAID to be able to properly contrast it to any other...
>>
>>Not really making an ata raid comment per se. Only highlighting that
>>not all RAID HW & implemetations are equal (from a useability,
>>convenience, etc. standpoint) and sometime you can encounter a real
>>PITA for any number or reasons - including not being able to get an
>>identical board, compatibility with other readily available boards,
>>etc. Of course some product lines try harder to insulate you from
>>troubles - but that's not really the point I'm making.
>
>I agree, but fortunately when one sticks to a very common
>chipset with config-on-drives as these are, it's very easy
>to recovery from a controller/board failure.
>
>>
>>>There's no need to hope, if the drives are physically and
>>>logically intact (that is - if the motherboard was the
>>>*only* failure point, no damage to drives) then same
>>>controller with same/similar bios will work. Towards that
>>>end, if the motherboard RAID bios version is unknown it
>>>might be easier to use a PCI card to recover,
>>
>>so all Promise cards & onboard chips are totally compatible? config,
>>CHS translation, LBA, driver always identical?
>>(really asking here)
>
>I never suggested they were. All of the same chipsets are
>compatible with same bios versions. Some of the chipsets
>do support configs made by others, for example a Fasttrack66
>can be read by a FastTrack100, IIRC, but only in bios prior
>to introduction of 48bit LBA... or perhaps it was a
>different version-break point, I'd have to look it up.
>There are sufficient Promise chipset products that this
>isn't necessary, and there may've only been one Promise
>ATA133 chipset integrated on motherboards... I only recall
>one.
>
>
>>
>>> since flashing
>>>a different bios is likely far easier than determining the
>>>RAID bios version used on the old board
>>
>>Huh? you're going to flash some PCI card with what? for what
>>purpose?
>
>Did you read what I wrote?
>PCI controller card, flash different bios version, for
>purpose of reading data IF the PCI card had a significantly
>older or newer bios not compatible with the bios used on the
>motherboard controller. You might have to do it before
>you'd realize the simplicity in doing so.
>
>>How many variables are you going to change during the
>>recovery process?
>
>This is really easy for someone accustomed to dealing with
>Promise controllers:
>
>- Same chipset
>- If default/shipping bios doesn't work, flash different
>bios per previous controller bios revision
>
>What is hard about that? It takes about 1/10 the time it
>took to write your post.
>
>>Normally all software levels have to match to work
>>properly (esp/incl driver). The more complicated you make this the
>>more likely you're going to muck things up - including messing up the
>>new raid card.
>
>This is not complicated, you must have some preconceived
>notion interfering with the simple two-step process... and
>typically it's a one-step process, bios flashing isn't
>usually needed, I only offered the info "just in case" it
>was.
>
>>
>>Maybe he should image the drives or backup certain sectors before
>>trying any suggestions esp w' experimenting w' different mobos or
>>cards?
>
>It's real simple - Don't write to the drives, including NOT
>making ANY changes in the RAID bios setup.

If drives get incorrectly marked offline it is not so simple. Things
often misbehave when they are dying and sometimes users screw things
up when they notice problems surfacing. But IF the drives are perfect
& IF the user does his homework, it should be as painless as you say.

> The drives will
>be read OK with zero config or you don't have the right
>controller or bios version. Drivers are NOT needed for
>RAID0. Well, if they were formatted as NTFS you do need a
>driver for that, but it has nothing to do with the RAID or
>controller... just windows NT/etc... hook it up in a working
>system with the PCI card will be fine, and as with any other
>hardware, you already had to know "somehow" what driver to
>use, right? This is no different, all the needed info,
>driver, is either included on the CDROM with product or
>downloadable from manufacturer.
>
>>
>>> (if manufacturer
>>>didn't provide full documentation, though decompressing the
>>>motherboard bios version is an alternate method of
>>>determining this),
>>
>>That would truly be magic as the mobo is toast & he can't locate
>>another. (This is where those multi-year warranties come in handy).
>
>Nope, he'd either have to remember flashing the bios or
>enquire about what bios version shipped on his revision of
>the motherboard... or just download a bios from mobo
>manufacturer... you don't need a board to determine info
>about bios.
>
>>
>>You mean from the image file DL'ed from the manufacturer? How does
>>that help if he doesn't know 'which' BIOS level he was using on the
>>original board?
>
>You're making it seem hard, when it's usually not.
>Why? What's the point of all this when it's relatively easy
>to do it?
>
>Just don't write to the drive. If you have one RAID bios
>that doesn't work, try a different one. Whatever clues the
>individual can gather to narrow down the bios version, might
>help reduce the time it takes trying different bios, but
>ultimately it's doable, repeatable, not luck or chance or
>hope, etc, etc.
>
>>
>>> in the off chance that the default bios
>>>on such a PCI card wouldn't work... though it probably will.
>>>There are also bios tools like CBROM or awardmod
>>>http://awardmod.sourceforge.net/
>>>that can even be used to extract the raid bios from the
>>>original motherboard's bios, and swap it into a new board's
>>>bios to ensure same raid bios version.
>>
>>but the mobo is toast...
>
>Those tools work with bios images, have no need for the
>original board. As with anything else, I advise practicing
>with them before doing something critical like flashing a
>modded bios to a board... BUT, if user is capable of
>flashing EEPROM another way too, it matters even less. I
>suppose what it all boils down to is that the more skill
>you have the more you can get away with doing... so long as
>you already have a recovery plan rather than just a vague
>concept that there might be some way to recover... which is
>drifting off topic
>
>That is a fair reason to be even more weary of motherboard
>RAID controllers instead of separate PCI card, since the
>odds of a motherboard failing are far higher than a RAID
>card failing... especially in PC grade boards.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 4:20:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

Curious George <cg@email.net> wrote:

>(snip)

Ever consider trimming the parts of the post that you're not
responding to? This would save a lot of scrolling-down looking for
something else to read.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 1, 2004 10:35:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:20:28 -0600, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>Curious George <cg@email.net> wrote:
>
>>(snip)
>
>Ever consider trimming the parts of the post that you're not
>responding to? This would save a lot of scrolling-down looking for
>something else to read.

Sorry. I could've done that better.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 2, 2004 7:19:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

"chrisv" <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote in message news:r96sq0d3vkq6qrrh05q5eju3l1u59bt8d8@4ax.com
> Curious George <cg@email.net> wrote:
>
> > (snip)
>
> Ever consider trimming the parts of the post that you're not
> responding to? This would save a lot of scrolling-down looking for

> something else to read.

What 'else to read'? All I only see is lots of posturing.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 5, 2004 7:04:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

kony wrote:
> On 27 Nov 2004 18:07:27 -0800, michaeljc70@hotmail.com (MC)
> wrote:
>
>
>>I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
>>two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
>>long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
>>with the same RAID chipset.
>
>
> What does "shot" mean?
> Some common failings like failed capacitors or inoperative
> bios can be relatively inexpensively fixed, if you don't
> have the inclination to do so yourself... especially if you
> only need the board operable long enough to copy off data.
>
>
>>Even if I throw the computer out, I really
>>need to save my data. My questions are:
>>
>>1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
>>the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
>>drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
>>need to boot or anything else).
>
>
> No, the odds are bad, typically it won't work... but you
> might find a promise card with same chipset. Often
> motherboards use what they call a "Promise Lite" bios but
> it's the same full-featured RAID chip you'd find on a card
> (one having same Promise ATA(nnn) chip on it of course.
>
>
>>2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
>>can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
>>software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?
>
>
> No, you definitely can't get that data that way.
>
> What motherboard was it? Is the rest of the system operable
> still, for example you have a working CPU and memory
> available?
I put drives of bad computers into a second computer sytem, boot from
the Knoppix Live CDrom, copy the files over to a known good drive, and
save files in that manner!

BUT, if you are talking moving your drives over to another computer, to
boot up XP or it's ilk, it probably will through you into fits! M$
didn't want that, and so, it can be the dickens trying to do what the
MOTHERSHIP prohibits!
Anonymous
a b G Storage
December 5, 2004 7:04:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

patrick wrote:

> kony wrote:
>> On 27 Nov 2004 18:07:27 -0800, michaeljc70@hotmail.com (MC)
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I had a motherboard with a built in IDE RAID Promise chipset. I used
>>>two drives for RAID 0 (now I know this was a bad idea). To make a
>>>long story short, the system board is shot and I can't get another
>>>with the same RAID chipset.
>>
>>
>> What does "shot" mean?

Since this wasn't adressed, "tot", "kaput", "defunct", "deceased", "in a
condition like or similar to that of a human being who has had the
misfortune to occupy the space through which one or more projectiles
launched by a closed-breech powder-actuated launching system of the type
commonly known as a 'firearm' were passing.

>> Some common failings like failed capacitors or inoperative
>> bios can be relatively inexpensively fixed, if you don't
>> have the inclination to do so yourself... especially if you
>> only need the board operable long enough to copy off data.

Generally cheaper to find a replacement board on ebay. If you're paying
someone to do it then it's cheaper to just get a new board.

>>>Even if I throw the computer out, I really
>>>need to save my data. My questions are:
>>>
>>>1) If I get another system with a PCI RAID card or IDE RAID chipset on
>>>the motherboard that is not Promise RAID chipset, will my existing
>>>drives work without reformating? (i.e. I can get my data off. I don't
>>>need to boot or anything else).
>>
>>
>> No, the odds are bad, typically it won't work... but you
>> might find a promise card with same chipset. Often
>> motherboards use what they call a "Promise Lite" bios but
>> it's the same full-featured RAID chip you'd find on a card
>> (one having same Promise ATA(nnn) chip on it of course.
>>
>>
>>>2) If I just get a new computer (or borrow someones) with normal IDE,
>>>can I plug in my 2 drives as the the 2nd and 3rd drive and use
>>>software RAID (like in Win2000) to get at my data?
>>
>>
>> No, you definitely can't get that data that way.
>>
>> What motherboard was it? Is the rest of the system operable
>> still, for example you have a working CPU and memory
>> available?
> I put drives of bad computers into a second computer sytem, boot from
> the Knoppix Live CDrom, copy the files over to a known good drive, and
> save files in that manner!

Try it with drives that were formatted using a RAID controller and that were
part of a RAID-0 array and you'll find that that approach doesn't work
unless you have a compatible RAID controller. You have to reconstruct the
RAID, or extract the data sector by sector and then make a software
emulation of the RAID controller, which is a lot more programming than most
folks want to be bothered with doing when a replacement RAID controller
costs maybe the value of a couple of hours labor for someone with the
skills to do that.

> BUT, if you are talking moving your drives over to another computer, to
> boot up XP or it's ilk, it probably will through you into fits! M$
> didn't want that, and so, it can be the dickens trying to do what the
> MOTHERSHIP prohibits!

Well, actually, just moving the drives to another computer causes no
problems at all for Windows XP or any other version of Windows as long as
the disk controller is supported by a driver that is either a standard part
of Windows or was installed on the source machine. XP will require that
you reactivate, which takes about five minutes worst-case.

You seem to be trying to make a Windows vs Linux case of some kind, which is
pretty silly since it's a hardware issue.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
December 5, 2004 8:15:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.os.windows-xp,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.comp.hardware (More info?)

patrick wrote:
<snip>
> I put drives of bad computers into a second computer sytem, boot from
> the Knoppix Live CDrom, copy the files over to a known good drive, and
> save files in that manner!
>
><snip>

That won't solve the problem of putting back together files dispersed
over multiple drives by a RAID controller.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.
!