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Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 11, 2005 9:33:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ok. I'm not overly experienced, but let me explain my situation and
hopefully someone can, and will be willing, to help this desperate
person.

I was helping my neighbor with their pc. They have an older pc we're
just trying to get a little more use out of. They had a small hard
drive with windows xp on it. I wanted to install a newer larger hard
drive for them.

I installed the newer hard drive without any problems (formatting,
install windows, etc). I installed it as master and put the old hard
drive, which had a full windows xp install on it and other documents
and files, as slave on the secondary ide channel. My intent was to
then bring the machine live and copy their documents and other files to
the new hard drive then trash the old one.

Windows xp sees both drives. Bios sees both drives. When i click on
the D drive in windows it says "disk in drive d is not formatted, do
you want to format it now?". I clearly don't as that will lose all the
data i am trying to get to.

When i go into device manager, under disk drives, it also sees the
drive. Under "volumes" there is nothing there so i click "populate"
where it shows me the drive capacity. This is where i get a little
fuzzy.

Partition style says "master boot record (mbr)". Unallocated and
reserved space both say 0mb.

So, what does all this mean?

I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old one up
again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would still be able to
boot to windows since i never touched this drive. Bios recognizes the
drive but then says "operating system failed to load" or something like
that. Back at square one.

What can i do to get the data off this drive? Would it help to try to
access it as a secondary drive on another pc?

I'm at a loss. I did back up their documents about 3 months ago when i
did some other work for them and, luckily, they're not heavy users like
me so they don't have a ton of new stuff that i'm worried about losing.
But, then again, any lost data is bad.

Please help.

thanks in advance. Sorry for the long post. Let me know if i should
post somewhere else.

Chris
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 12, 2005 12:04:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

cdcutlip@hotmail.com wrote:
> I installed the newer hard drive without any problems (formatting,
> install windows, etc). I installed it as master and put the old hard
> drive, which had a full windows xp install on it and other documents
> and files, as slave on the secondary ide channel. My intent was to
> then bring the machine live and copy their documents and other files to
> the new hard drive then trash the old one.

I'm not an expert either; just visiting, but you said you're
desperate... It seems like you could've just cloned the old drive with
Ghost or some such utility, perhaps resizing or adding partitions if
desired. If you already have WinXP working fine, it's a lot of grief to
do a fresh install, reinstall apps, etc just to swap hard disks. Now
you've got 2 drives with visible active primary bootable partitions,
which is often a good way to hose yourself...

> I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old one up
> again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would still be able to
> boot to windows since i never touched this drive. Bios recognizes the
> drive but then says "operating system failed to load" or something like
> that. Back at square one.

You probably loused up the boot sector on this disk, or maybe the
primary (Windows) partition just got marked inactive. If it were me, I
might run FDISK to reset it as active if necessary, since that's
simplest to check. If that didn't fix things, I'd try using the "repair
existing installation" option on my NT/2000/XP setup cd to restore the
boot record and ntldr files (do all of this with the new drive
unplugged!) If that got me back to the starting point, then I'd boot to
a DOS floppy with Ghost on it, clone the entire drive, then DISCONNECT
IT this time before booting off the new one. Then muck around with the
partition sizes etc. via Partition Magic or similar.

HTH,
Adam Cole
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 12, 2005 4:23:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

<cdcutlip@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ........ They had a small hard drive with windows xp on it.
> I wanted to install a newer larger hard drive for them.
>
> I installed the newer hard drive without any problems (formatting,
> install windows, etc).


Is the file format on the new HD
the same as that of the old HD?


> I installed it as master and put the old hard drive, which had
> a full windows xp install on it and other documents and files,
> as slave on the secondary ide channel. My intent was to
> then bring the machine live and copy their documents and
> other files to the new hard drive then trash the old one.


Then what? You'd have files on the new HD,
but no installed operating system.


> Windows xp sees both drives. Bios sees both drives. When
> i click on the D drive in windows it says "disk in drive d is not
> formatted, do you want to format it now?". I clearly don't as
> that will lose all the data i am trying to get to.
>
> When i go into device manager, under disk drives, it also sees
> the drive. Under "volumes" there is nothing there so i click
> "populate" where it shows me the drive capacity. This is where
> i get a little fuzzy.
>
> Partition style says "master boot record (mbr)". Unallocated
> and reserved space both say 0mb.
>
> So, what does all this mean?
>
> I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old
> one up again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would
> still be able to boot to windows since i never touched this drive.
> Bios recognizes the drive but then says "operating system
> failed to load" or something like that. Back at square one.
>
> What can i do to get the data off this drive?


Standard procedure for moving an OS to a new HD is
to clone the old HD's entire contents to the new HD
using cloning software such as Synantec's Ghost or
Acronis' True Image, or a handful of other cloning
utilities, or the cloning utility that might have come
with the retail package containing the new HD. Check
to see if you can download such a utility from the
manufacturer's website.

When you do the cloning, be sure that the utility knows
(or has been told by you) to copy the Master Boot Record
to the new HD. If the utility is also to create the new
partition on the new HD, tell it to make a "primary"
partition and to mark the new partition on the new HD
"active".

Once the copying has been completed, don't boot up
the new HD just yet. First disconnect the old HD's
data cable or power cable or both. This isolates the
new HD to prevent its new OS from seeing its "parent"
when it boots up for the 1st time. Then startup the
PC. The BIOS will see that there is only the new HD
in the system, and it will pass control to the new HD's
MBR, which in turn will pass control to the boot sector
on the "active" partition, which will start ntldr there which
will look at its boot.ini file.... etc., etc., and the new OS
will load and start up. If it were to see its "parent" during
its 1st startup, it would set pointers that will forever entangle
it with its "parent" and you'd have siamesed OSes. But
after the 1st startup in isolation, the new OS becomes
an "adult", and subsequent startups with its "parent"
visible doesn't affect the new OS.

The most common procedure is then to put the new HD
in place of the old HD on the IDE cable, and to set the
new HD's jumpers to the jumper setting of the old HD
(although neither action is really necessary), and use
the new HD as you had used the old HD. Note that there
is no real role corresponding to "Primary Master" as
that designation only determines the default position of
the HD in the BIOS's boot order - which can be changed
at will during bootup.

If you know how to adjust the boot.ini file on the old HD,
you can reconnect the old HD, let it boot up, adjust its
boot.ini file for multi-booting, and you can choose between
the old OS and its files or the new OS and the copied
files at boot time.

Or, you could exchange the new HD's and the old HD's
jumper settings and use the new HD's boot manager
and boot.ini file to do the multi-booting.

Or, you could remove the old HD and use it as a bootable
archive of the system that is now on the new HD.

Or, you could leave the old HD in the system, reformat
its partition, and use it as extra storage space.

With 2 (or 3, or 4) HDs in your PC, the combinations
of uses becomes awesome. By making one of the HDs
removable through use of a removable HD tray, and
by making the power to each HD switchable, the ease
and flexibility becomes quite amazing.

*TimDaniels*
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 12, 2005 6:48:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Thanks adam. I'll try some of your suggestions.

Chris


"Adam Cole" <foozle@foozlesnark.invalid> wrote in message
news:mK5Fd.1542$m31.16106@typhoon.sonic.net...
> cdcutlip@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I installed the newer hard drive without any problems (formatting,
> > install windows, etc). I installed it as master and put the old hard
> > drive, which had a full windows xp install on it and other documents
> > and files, as slave on the secondary ide channel. My intent was to
> > then bring the machine live and copy their documents and other files to
> > the new hard drive then trash the old one.
>
> I'm not an expert either; just visiting, but you said you're
> desperate... It seems like you could've just cloned the old drive with
> Ghost or some such utility, perhaps resizing or adding partitions if
> desired. If you already have WinXP working fine, it's a lot of grief to
> do a fresh install, reinstall apps, etc just to swap hard disks. Now
> you've got 2 drives with visible active primary bootable partitions,
> which is often a good way to hose yourself...
>
> > I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old one up
> > again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would still be able to
> > boot to windows since i never touched this drive. Bios recognizes the
> > drive but then says "operating system failed to load" or something like
> > that. Back at square one.
>
> You probably loused up the boot sector on this disk, or maybe the
> primary (Windows) partition just got marked inactive. If it were me, I
> might run FDISK to reset it as active if necessary, since that's
> simplest to check. If that didn't fix things, I'd try using the "repair
> existing installation" option on my NT/2000/XP setup cd to restore the
> boot record and ntldr files (do all of this with the new drive
> unplugged!) If that got me back to the starting point, then I'd boot to
> a DOS floppy with Ghost on it, clone the entire drive, then DISCONNECT
> IT this time before booting off the new one. Then muck around with the
> partition sizes etc. via Partition Magic or similar.
>
> HTH,
> Adam Cole
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 12, 2005 10:05:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

En 1105497223.377442.263970@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, Chris wrote:
> Windows xp sees both drives.

Judging from your other notes, I am not THAT sure...

> Bios sees both drives.

Great. So DOS will as well. Do you have some way to boot DOS on this box?

> I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old one
> up again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would still be
> able to boot to windows since i never touched this drive. Bios
> recognizes the drive but then says "operating system failed to
> load" or something like that. Back at square one.

Sorry if I look pedantic (I actually am not).
Is the message "Error loading operating system"?

If no, please post the real message (even if it is in another language).

If yes, this means the MBR code is correct (so DO NOT try fdisk/mbr), but it
failed to properly load the bootrecord; which in turn could be, either
because it can't locate it (partition table corrupted), or because there is
some hardware error (unfortunately, when you massage hardware, removing dust
etc., things like these do happen).

A good idea at this point would be to give Findpart
(http://www.partitionsupport.com/utilities.htm) a try.


Antoine
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 13, 2005 4:16:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ignore Timmy, he obviously has severe reading problems combined with an
enormous urge to rant.

"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote in message news:maGdnUY84d_RCHjcRVn-tA@comcast.com
> <cdcutlip@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > ........ They had a small hard drive with windows xp on it.
> > I wanted to install a newer larger hard drive for them.
> >
> > I installed the newer hard drive without any problems (formatting,
> > install windows, etc).
>
>
> Is the file format on the new HD
> the same as that of the old HD?
>
>
> > I installed it as master and put the old hard drive, which had
> > a full windows xp install on it and other documents and files,
> > as slave on the secondary ide channel. My intent was to
> > then bring the machine live and copy their documents and
> > other files to the new hard drive then trash the old one.
>
>
> Then what? You'd have files on the new HD,
> but no installed operating system.

Hmm, "install windows" means that there no installed operating system, Timmy?

>
>
> > Windows xp sees both drives. Bios sees both drives. When
> > i click on the D drive in windows it says "disk in drive d is not
> > formatted, do you want to format it now?". I clearly don't as
> > that will lose all the data i am trying to get to.
> >
> > When i go into device manager, under disk drives, it also sees
> > the drive. Under "volumes" there is nothing there so i click
> > "populate" where it shows me the drive capacity. This is where
> > i get a little fuzzy.
> >
> > Partition style says "master boot record (mbr)". Unallocated
> > and reserved space both say 0mb.
> >
> > So, what does all this mean?
> >
> > I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old
> > one up again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would
> > still be able to boot to windows since i never touched this drive.
> > Bios recognizes the drive but then says "operating system
> > failed to load" or something like that. Back at square one.
> >
> > What can i do to get the data off this drive?
>
>
> Standard procedure for moving an OS to a new HD is
> to clone the old HD's entire contents to the new HD
> using cloning software such as Synantec's Ghost or
> Acronis' True Image, or a handful of other cloning
> utilities, or the cloning utility that might have come
> with the retail package containing the new HD. Check
> to see if you can download such a utility from the
> manufacturer's website.

The old one doesn't boot, Timmy, so the clone won't either.

>
> When you do the cloning, be sure that the utility knows
> (or has been told by you) to copy the Master Boot Record
> to the new HD. If the utility is also to create the new
> partition on the new HD, tell it to make a "primary"
> partition and to mark the new partition on the new HD
> "active".
>
> Once the copying has been completed, don't boot up
> the new HD just yet. First disconnect the old HD's
> data cable or power cable or both. This isolates the
> new HD to prevent its new OS from seeing its "parent"
> when it boots up for the 1st time. Then startup the
> PC. The BIOS will see that there is only the new HD
> in the system, and it will pass control to the new HD's
> MBR, which in turn will pass control to the boot sector
> on the "active" partition, which will start ntldr there which
> will look at its boot.ini file.... etc., etc., and the new OS
> will load and start up. If it were to see its "parent" during
> its 1st startup, it would set pointers that will forever entangle
> it with its "parent" and you'd have siamesed OSes. But
> after the 1st startup in isolation, the new OS becomes
> an "adult", and subsequent startups with its "parent"
> visible doesn't affect the new OS.
>
> The most common procedure is then to put the new HD
> in place of the old HD on the IDE cable, and to set the
> new HD's jumpers to the jumper setting of the old HD
> (although neither action is really necessary), and use
> the new HD as you had used the old HD. Note that there
> is no real role corresponding to "Primary Master" as
> that designation only determines the default position of
> the HD in the BIOS's boot order - which can be changed
> at will during bootup.
>
> If you know how to adjust the boot.ini file on the old HD,
> you can reconnect the old HD, let it boot up, adjust its
> boot.ini file for multi-booting, and you can choose between
> the old OS and its files or the new OS and the copied
> files at boot time.
>
> Or, you could exchange the new HD's and the old HD's
> jumper settings and use the new HD's boot manager
> and boot.ini file to do the multi-booting.
>
> Or, you could remove the old HD and use it as a bootable
> archive of the system that is now on the new HD.
>
> Or, you could leave the old HD in the system, reformat
> its partition, and use it as extra storage space.
>
> With 2 (or 3, or 4) HDs in your PC, the combinations
> of uses becomes awesome. By making one of the HDs
> removable through use of a removable HD tray, and
> by making the power to each HD switchable, the ease
> and flexibility becomes quite amazing.

Rant, rant, rant ......

Sure Timmy, sure.
Now how about "What can i do to get the data off this drive?"

>
> *TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 13, 2005 5:16:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. Was able to determine from the user
that there was no data of significance which saved me a lot of grief.
Learned from my mistake though. I should have backed up before beginning
any of this.

Timothy - see my comments to your reply below. Thanks again.

Chris


"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote in message
news:maGdnUY84d_RCHjcRVn-tA@comcast.com...
> <cdcutlip@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > ........ They had a small hard drive with windows xp on it.
> > I wanted to install a newer larger hard drive for them.
> >
> > I installed the newer hard drive without any problems (formatting,
> > install windows, etc).
>
>
> Is the file format on the new HD
> the same as that of the old HD?
Yo know, that could be an issue. Old HD might have been FAT32 and new HD
was formatted ntsf.
>
>
> > I installed it as master and put the old hard drive, which had
> > a full windows xp install on it and other documents and files,
> > as slave on the secondary ide channel. My intent was to
> > then bring the machine live and copy their documents and
> > other files to the new hard drive then trash the old one.
>
>
> Then what? You'd have files on the new HD,
> but no installed operating system.

Actually did a clean install of windows xp on the new hard drive so intent
was just to copy the documents from the old HD to the new one.

>
>
> > Windows xp sees both drives. Bios sees both drives. When
> > i click on the D drive in windows it says "disk in drive d is not
> > formatted, do you want to format it now?". I clearly don't as
> > that will lose all the data i am trying to get to.
> >
> > When i go into device manager, under disk drives, it also sees
> > the drive. Under "volumes" there is nothing there so i click
> > "populate" where it shows me the drive capacity. This is where
> > i get a little fuzzy.
> >
> > Partition style says "master boot record (mbr)". Unallocated
> > and reserved space both say 0mb.
> >
> > So, what does all this mean?
> >
> > I actually disconnected the larger new hard drive, set the old
> > one up again as primary and tried to boot, thinking i would
> > still be able to boot to windows since i never touched this drive.
> > Bios recognizes the drive but then says "operating system
> > failed to load" or something like that. Back at square one.
> >
> > What can i do to get the data off this drive?
>
>
> Standard procedure for moving an OS to a new HD is
> to clone the old HD's entire contents to the new HD
> using cloning software such as Synantec's Ghost or
> Acronis' True Image, or a handful of other cloning
> utilities, or the cloning utility that might have come
> with the retail package containing the new HD. Check
> to see if you can download such a utility from the
> manufacturer's website.
>
> When you do the cloning, be sure that the utility knows
> (or has been told by you) to copy the Master Boot Record
> to the new HD. If the utility is also to create the new
> partition on the new HD, tell it to make a "primary"
> partition and to mark the new partition on the new HD
> "active".
>
> Once the copying has been completed, don't boot up
> the new HD just yet. First disconnect the old HD's
> data cable or power cable or both. This isolates the
> new HD to prevent its new OS from seeing its "parent"
> when it boots up for the 1st time. Then startup the
> PC. The BIOS will see that there is only the new HD
> in the system, and it will pass control to the new HD's
> MBR, which in turn will pass control to the boot sector
> on the "active" partition, which will start ntldr there which
> will look at its boot.ini file.... etc., etc., and the new OS
> will load and start up. If it were to see its "parent" during
> its 1st startup, it would set pointers that will forever entangle
> it with its "parent" and you'd have siamesed OSes. But
> after the 1st startup in isolation, the new OS becomes
> an "adult", and subsequent startups with its "parent"
> visible doesn't affect the new OS.
>
> The most common procedure is then to put the new HD
> in place of the old HD on the IDE cable, and to set the
> new HD's jumpers to the jumper setting of the old HD
> (although neither action is really necessary), and use
> the new HD as you had used the old HD. Note that there
> is no real role corresponding to "Primary Master" as
> that designation only determines the default position of
> the HD in the BIOS's boot order - which can be changed
> at will during bootup.
>
> If you know how to adjust the boot.ini file on the old HD,
> you can reconnect the old HD, let it boot up, adjust its
> boot.ini file for multi-booting, and you can choose between
> the old OS and its files or the new OS and the copied
> files at boot time.
>
> Or, you could exchange the new HD's and the old HD's
> jumper settings and use the new HD's boot manager
> and boot.ini file to do the multi-booting.
>
> Or, you could remove the old HD and use it as a bootable
> archive of the system that is now on the new HD.
>
> Or, you could leave the old HD in the system, reformat
> its partition, and use it as extra storage space.
>
> With 2 (or 3, or 4) HDs in your PC, the combinations
> of uses becomes awesome. By making one of the HDs
> removable through use of a removable HD tray, and
> by making the power to each HD switchable, the ease
> and flexibility becomes quite amazing.

WOW. This last section is way over my head. What was i getting into? LOL.
And here i thought i had some decent knowledge.
My experience has really just been in installing new hard drives, no
ghosting or imaging, and installing second hard drives for
data only. Thanks for the insight though.

>
> *TimDaniels*
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 13, 2005 5:16:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Cut" wrote:
>> Is the file format on the new HD
>> the same as that of the old HD?
> Yo know, that could be an issue. Old HD might have been FAT32 and new HD
> was formatted ntsf.


Let us know if that was the cause. We're all learning.
!