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Tape Backup

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 13, 2005 4:00:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks

More about : tape backup

Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 2:01:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

On 01/13/2005 4:00 PM chrisisasavage@hotmail.com wrote:

>I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
>workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
>biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
>or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
>for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
>model.
>
>Thanks
>
>
>
What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream
tape drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been out of
business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD for
backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found the least expensive
being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

--
________
To email me, Edit "xt" from my email address.
Brian M. Kochera
"Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"
View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951
January 14, 2005 2:01:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

> What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream tape drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been
> out of business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD for backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found
> the least expensive being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced ! 20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti...

But, I would use an external hard drive with Robocopy.

Lynn
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 2:06:51 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

I am a fan of hard disk storage used for backup, BUT, I was recently in a
computer store and saw a product marketed by ZIP that had a storage capacity
of (I think) 35-90GB. I think it was tape. Knowing ZIP products are
marketed towards the average PC user (and priced accordingly), you might
want to browse their website and see what they have to offer.

--Dan

<chrisisasavage@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105650059.340774.306560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
> workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
> biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
> or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
> for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
> model.
>
> Thanks
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 2:06:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

dg wrote:

> I am a fan of hard disk storage used for backup, BUT, I was recently in a
> computer store and saw a product marketed by ZIP that had a storage
> capacity
> of (I think) 35-90GB. I think it was tape. Knowing ZIP products are
> marketed towards the average PC user (and priced accordingly), you might
> want to browse their website and see what they have to offer.

It's an Iomega product but it's not a Zip and it's not a tape, it's called a
"REV" and it's a removable-media disk. The drive is 300 bucks and the
disks cost about the same as hard disks of slightly larger capacity.

> --Dan
>
> <chrisisasavage@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1105650059.340774.306560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
>> workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
>> biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
>> or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
>> for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
>> model.
>>
>> Thanks
>>

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 8:51:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In article <cs71p4$ofh@library1.airnews.net>, Lynn <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com>
writes

>Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced !

They're also a pile of unreliable shite.

> 20/40 GB
>for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.

I pity you if you think $40 per tape is "reasonably priced".

--
..sigmonster on vacation
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 11:06:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived? I really don't
know. You say HDD are reliable and medium life. I have never dropped a
hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better. Now granted, I have
burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
that, was it software, burner, or medium? I guess that would qualify as
unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?

I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
data before it starts to corrupt?

IMF
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 1:03:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

On 14 Jan 2005 08:06:40 -0800, "Irwin" <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Arno,
>
>Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

I like using HD as the primary backup, then archiving the backup files
to DVDR every now and again. This gives you several levels with
different failure mechanisms, and the DVDRs don't age enough to be a
very high risk.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 1:36:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
after 3 months? Do they lose data?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 1:37:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> writes:
> CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
> long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
> them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
> to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

High quality CDR (e.g. Mitsui Archive Gold) have undergone a lot of
testing and seem to be quite stable for long periods. The jury is
still out for DVDR. Hard drives contain all kinds of seals, filters,
lubricants on mechanical parts, and flash memory parameters and
firmware dependent on floating charges, all of which can decay over a
period of years. Hard drives are quite unreliable for long term
storage.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 2:31:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Gee, this is terrible. According to the NIST thing, I am doing so many
things wrong. I write on them with a broad permanent marker which sure
smells like it uses solvents, sometimes with fine tip markers, and I
store the recorded media horizontally for years, sometimes in their own
cases laying down piled on top of each other, but usually just back in
the spindles they came in.

Funny thing, though, I have never, ever noticed a disc lose data it
once held. Could it all just be a lot of hype? Wouldn't be the first
time. So now I have to go back and try a few. Of course, figuring out
what was supposed to be on there and whether it is still good or not
won't be easy!

Wish me luck,
Irwin
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 3:53:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Irwin wrote:

> Arno,
>
> Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

Whether they are or not depends on the particular chemistry--some last a
good long time when properly stored but don't count on it unless you're
sure you know what you're getting.

> I really don't
> know. You say HDD are reliable and medium life. I have never dropped a
> hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
> that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better.

Some kinds yes, others no. A hard disk shock-mounted in a removable tray
will take quite a lot of abuse, a laptop drive even more. One thing you
are not going to do is scratch the data off a hard disk by dragging
something across it.

> Now granted, I have
> burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
> correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
> that, was it software, burner, or medium? I guess that would qualify as
> unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
> only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
> think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
> validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?
>
> I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
> consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
> data before it starts to corrupt?

Put those disks in inexpensive trays and they become a lot more convenient.
You'll find that disk is actually competitive with travan tape in cost and
is much more flexible in terms of options for backup strategies (you can
use anything from xcopy to high end enterprise backup software, you can
back up to RAID, can do all sorts of things that you can't do with tape)
and vastly superior in terms of transfer rate and scalability (when you
need 200 gig of backup, if there is a Travan that large available at all
it's not going to be cheap and won't use your existing tapes, but stick a
250 gig disk in a tray and it plugs right in where your old 40 came out,
with no changes at all needed.

As to how long a hard disk holds data, I don't know a specific answer to
that--I've never had one lose data that had not failed outright. Since
they depend on magnetic servo tracks for their operation they should hold
data uncorrupted as long as the drive operates.




> IMF

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 3:53:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> writes:
> As to how long a hard disk holds data, I don't know a specific answer to
> that--I've never had one lose data that had not failed outright. Since
> they depend on magnetic servo tracks for their operation they should hold
> data uncorrupted as long as the drive operates.

I've had numerous hard drives fail, resulting in any of data
corruption, specific sectors failing, or the whole drive failing. Any
serious backup system should include enough error
correction/redundancy to recover from sector and media failures.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 4:01:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> It's an Iomega product but it's not a Zip and it's not a tape, it's called a
> "REV" and it's a removable-media disk. The drive is 300 bucks and the
> disks cost about the same as hard disks of slightly larger capacity.

....and they also use non-standard UDF filesystem.

--
Maxim Shatskih, Windows DDK MVP
StorageCraft Corporation
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 4:45:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In article <462gu0t9vcernodg05i2dpn5oe1hskbn1g@4ax.com>,
Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> wrote:
>On 14 Jan 2005 08:06:40 -0800, "Irwin" <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Arno,
>>
>>Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?
>
>CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
>long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
>them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
>to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.
>
>I like using HD as the primary backup, then archiving the backup files
>to DVDR every now and again. This gives you several levels with
>different failure mechanisms, and the DVDRs don't age enough to be a
>very high risk.
>
>
>--
>Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer


The ability to read a DVD written on one brand of burner on any other
reader scares me. I'd do a readback on at least one PC of another
brand to test it.

You also need several generations of backup, and never overwrite your
best backup. (this applies to disks and re-writable media.)

Unless you've actually tested a restore to bare iron you don't
know if your disaster recovery plan will work when you need it.

These days I do image backups to a pair of big disks in another
computer on my LAN, (these disks are synced in case one dies) and I
backup my data (mostly "My Documents") with some sync software that
keeps my laptop in sync with my desktop machine.

test test test .

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 4:49:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <1105727766.949858.164690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Irwin <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
>lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
>magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
>after 3 months? Do they lose data?
>


I've never seen a reference to the magnetic domains degrading,
in the context of magnetic disk media.

The US National Standard org has a good document on CD/DVD media
lifetime issues:

http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 6:00:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage chrisisasavage@hotmail.com wrote:
> I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
> workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
> biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
> or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
> for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
> model.

Forget it. Tape is today only cost-effective if you have huge volumes
of data in tape libraries, e.g. >100TB.

Other backup media are (my subjective list):

Medium...high reliability, medium lifetime, medium cost, high capacity:
- HDDs in external enclosures or removable drive bays

Low reliability, low lifetime, high cost, medium capacity:
- Non-professional tape (Dat, Travan)

Low reliability, low lifetime, low cost, low capacity:
- CD-R, DVD+/-R(W)

High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
- MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM

To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

For backups with small sizes use MOD, DVD-RAM or HDDs.
For backups with large sizes use HDDs.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 6:44:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Amazing. I always put CDs on the table with the label down, to protect
the bottom side. So, that is wrong? Amazing.

Irwin

Mike Redrobe wrote:
> Irwin wrote:
> > Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent
and
> > lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched,
>
> The vulnerable part of CDRs is actually the top surface.
>
> Scratches on the bottom can be polished out - there's 1.2mm of
> clear plastic on the underside, scratch the label size, however,
> and your data is gone forever.
>
> The top surface has only a thin layer of laquer protecting the
> aluminium recording layer from the outside world.
> DVDs are better in this respect, as they have 1.2mm of clear plastic
> top and bottom.
>
> So if you leave your CD on your desk or whatever, you should put
> the data side - not label side - face down on the desk.
> (Or put them away in cases or sleeves every time..!)
>
> >while the magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually.
>
> In theory, yes, in practice this isn't common.
>
> >What happens
> > to the CD-R after 3 months? Do they lose data?
>
> The thin layer of laquer on the label side can be worn off over
> time (through mishandling, stacking CDs on top of each other etc),
> causing "CD Rot" as the aluminium surface oxides.
> Even the pressure of a pen is enough....
>
> --
> Mike
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 9:16:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Irwin wrote:

> Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
> lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
> magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
> after 3 months? Do they lose data?

3 months probably not, three years some do.

The upper surface of a CD is protected only by a layer of paint if that--if
it gets scratched the data is gone (people tend to be careful of the
bottom--if that gets scratched it can be polished, the top is the fragile
side). DVDs have a layer of plastic on top of the chemical and reflective
layers, so they're a good deal more durable in that regard, but I haven't
even seen claims of high longevity for them.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 14, 2005 10:50:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Irwin wrote:
> Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
> lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched,

The vulnerable part of CDRs is actually the top surface.

Scratches on the bottom can be polished out - there's 1.2mm of
clear plastic on the underside, scratch the label size, however,
and your data is gone forever.

The top surface has only a thin layer of laquer protecting the
aluminium recording layer from the outside world.
DVDs are better in this respect, as they have 1.2mm of clear plastic
top and bottom.

So if you leave your CD on your desk or whatever, you should put
the data side - not label side - face down on the desk.
(Or put them away in cases or sleeves every time..!)

>while the magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually.

In theory, yes, in practice this isn't common.

>What happens
> to the CD-R after 3 months? Do they lose data?

The thin layer of laquer on the label side can be worn off over
time (through mishandling, stacking CDs on top of each other etc),
causing "CD Rot" as the aluminium surface oxides.
Even the pressure of a pen is enough....

--
Mike
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 9:53:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Irwin <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Arno,

> Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived? I really don't
> know.
My personal experience and that of people I know. The shortest CD-R life
I had so far was 5 minutes. It burned. It verified fine, 5 minutes later
the same drive could not read it. The problem is not so much that all
media are bad, but that quality and durability varies widely with no
way for the user to know which media are good and which are not. In
addition the burner/firmware/medium combination makes a huge difference.

> You say HDD are reliable and medium life.

Medium = 5..20 years. The HDD manufacturers only state 5 year component
life. The problem is that there are components on HDDs (e.g. electrolyte
capacitors) that have a limited lifetime, even more so when unused.
Also part of the reliabaility claim is that you can suffer a complete
media loss if you drop them.

> I have never dropped a
> hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
> that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better.

Yes: Mechanical on the underside. No: Scratches on the top, sunlight.

> Now granted, I have
> burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
> correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
> that, was it software, burner, or medium?

All three (if you count the firmware of the drive as part of the software).

> I guess that would qualify as
> unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
> only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
> think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
> validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?

In my experience, that is unfortunately so.

> I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
> consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
> data before it starts to corrupt?

Data corruption should take >>10 years. However HDDs for backups are
best done with the HDDs in removable drive bays or UDB/FireWire/SATA
external enclosures, which also protect the drive so some degree.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 10:04:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously Irwin <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
> lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
> magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
> after 3 months? Do they lose data?

Yes, we all have seen these manufacturer claims. The problem is chemical
degradation, often induces by light.

Example: A high-quality CD-R written exactly to manufacturer specification
and stored cool, dark and dry may actually keep 50 years or so,
but nobody really knows, the technology is still too new.
And there is a lot of variation and different chemicals used in
different media.
Also don't forget these are extremely cheap mass-market media.

Comparison: Any MOD (and a DVD-RAM in a cartridge, it is basically the
same technology) will keep >30 years when stored under normal
conditions. Some manufacturers today think that >80 years is
realistic, but for these long times accelerated ageing models
seem to be unreliable. In addition MOD (and DVD-RAM?) is
ISO-standardized. If it has the logo, then it has the
characteristics and the reliability.
These techologies are targetted at people that are willing to
pay more to actually keep their data.

--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 10:05:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <1105727766.949858.164690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Irwin <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
>>lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
>>magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
>>after 3 months? Do they lose data?
>>


> I've never seen a reference to the magnetic domains degrading,
> in the context of magnetic disk media.

It happens on floppy disk. It is pretty much a non-ussue on HDD,
since they a) keep longer b) other parts limit drive lifetime.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 10:10:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid&gt; wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> writes:
>> As to how long a hard disk holds data, I don't know a specific answer to
>> that--I've never had one lose data that had not failed outright. Since
>> they depend on magnetic servo tracks for their operation they should hold
>> data uncorrupted as long as the drive operates.

> I've had numerous hard drives fail, resulting in any of data
> corruption, specific sectors failing, or the whole drive failing. Any
> serious backup system should include enough error
> correction/redundancy to recover from sector and media failures.

That is why you do regular backups on at least 3 rotating media sets
(so you can go back to the backup one step older if the newest one
fails) and why you do a complete compare after the backup (so you
can identify problems with a medium early).

Still not extremely reliable. For that you should probably use
two different types of professional tapes at the same time,
put each backup and both media types and store the tapes in
different locations. However that costs far more than most
people are willing/able to pay.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 10:15:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously Irwin <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gee, this is terrible. According to the NIST thing, I am doing so many
> things wrong. I write on them with a broad permanent marker which sure
> smells like it uses solvents, sometimes with fine tip markers, and I
> store the recorded media horizontally for years, sometimes in their own
> cases laying down piled on top of each other, but usually just back in
> the spindles they came in.

> Funny thing, though, I have never, ever noticed a disc lose data it
> once held. Could it all just be a lot of hype? Wouldn't be the first
> time. So now I have to go back and try a few. Of course, figuring out
> what was supposed to be on there and whether it is still good or not
> won't be easy!

As said here before, if you have a good match between firmware, burner
and disk (and limit writing speed to 8x: personal observation for a
TEAC CD-E540E and Imation 40x CD-R) and store them in a dark place,
you can get years of data lifetime. There is just no way to predict
with which exact combination you will get this.

> Wish me luck,

I do. You might need it.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 10:23:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid&gt; wrote:
> Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> writes:
>> CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
>> long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
>> them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
>> to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

> High quality CDR (e.g. Mitsui Archive Gold) have undergone a lot of
> testing and seem to be quite stable for long periods. The jury is
> still out for DVDR. Hard drives contain all kinds of seals, filters,
> lubricants on mechanical parts, and flash memory parameters and
> firmware dependent on floating charges, all of which can decay over a
> period of years. Hard drives are quite unreliable for long term
> storage.

Indeed. The only good solutions for long-term storage is professional
tape intended for long-term storage (check the specs), MOD and (to a
lesser degree, since it is newer technology) DVD-RAM.

If you don't drop or overheat them, HDD reliability if fine for
regular backups. (Backup != long-term storage.)

I agree that DVD+/-R(W) is unclear at the moment. However the
German computer magazine c't does regular tests of burner/medium
combinations and has burned disks evaluated with professional
equipment. It does not look good. The same "speed before
reliability" marketing-driven philosophy that we know from CD-R
seems to be the current trend there.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 10:29:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <462gu0t9vcernodg05i2dpn5oe1hskbn1g@4ax.com>,
> Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> wrote:
>>On 14 Jan 2005 08:06:40 -0800, "Irwin" <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>

> You also need several generations of backup, and never overwrite your
> best backup. (this applies to disks and re-writable media.)

Common consens here is 3 or more independent media sets in rotation.
If you keep backups for a longer time, add media sets. And be prepared
to have to restore from the second-newest set.

> Unless you've actually tested a restore to bare iron you don't
> know if your disaster recovery plan will work when you need it.

Not a media reliability issue, but very true! I had to do this once
(it worked), and since then I try this once a year or so with a spare
disk to be sure.

> These days I do image backups to a pair of big disks in another
> computer on my LAN, (these disks are synced in case one dies) and I
> backup my data (mostly "My Documents") with some sync software that
> keeps my laptop in sync with my desktop machine.

So-so from the point of reliability. Should be o.k.. Good for
convenience.

> test test test .
And be sure what you actually test for!

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 11:41:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <34rtmdF4f031cU3@individual.net>,
Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>Previously Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <1105727766.949858.164690@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> Irwin <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>Thanks for the info. I actually thought that CD-R were permanent and
>>>lasted forever, even if the plastic surface was scratched, while the
>>>magnetic info on a HDD degraded eventually. What happens to the CD-R
>>>after 3 months? Do they lose data?
>>>
>
>
>> I've never seen a reference to the magnetic domains degrading,
>> in the context of magnetic disk media.
>
>It happens on floppy disk. It is pretty much a non-ussue on HDD,
>since they a) keep longer b) other parts limit drive lifetime.
>
>Arno
>--
>For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
>GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
> "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
>
>


Coercivity (measured in Oersteds) is the field strength necessary to
magnatize or demagnative magnetic media. A quick google shows that
floppy disks are at about 730 oersteds.
http://home.fujifilm.com/products/datamedia/fd.html

Hard disks are in the thousands.

ISTR that the earth's magnetic field is 1 oersted. (used to be called
1 gauss)



--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 12:54:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Has anyone here tried any of the online backup solutions offered by
some ISP's? Essentially you pay a monthly fee for a block of storage
(500MB, 1GB, 2GB, 5GB, whatever) on a server located "somewhere" and
some software that runs in the background on your local machine that
uploads files after changes, compressed and encrypted of course. The
advantage is that all of this is automated and there is no additional
hardware to deal with. This can be a disadvantage as well.

Opinions?


On 14 Jan 2005 15:00:22 GMT, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage chrisisasavage@hotmail.com wrote:
>> I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
>> workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the

----
Paul J. Hurley
Caliban Computing
http://www.Caliban.com/
Spam resistant return email address.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 1:04:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In article <09biu0pjca4r2e3a8ntg7nkctc2ckdknah@4ax.com>,
Paul J. Hurley <hurleyp@NoSpam.caliban.com> wrote:
>Has anyone here tried any of the online backup solutions offered by
>some ISP's? Essentially you pay a monthly fee for a block of storage
>(500MB, 1GB, 2GB, 5GB, whatever) on a server located "somewhere" and
>some software that runs in the background on your local machine that
>uploads files after changes, compressed and encrypted of course. The
>advantage is that all of this is automated and there is no additional
>hardware to deal with. This can be a disadvantage as well.
>
>Opinions?


I know people that have been using ibackup.com for several years
and I can recommend it. It's great for user data,
but it doesn't replace image backups for bare iron reinstalls
unless you are just writing MSWord docs and can sit down
on any PC with an internet connection to do your work.

It's "one touch backup", at least the way my friends
use it.

The access-your-data-anywhere is a nice feature.

You can get an ISP account with 500MB or more disk space
for a few bucks a months and use FTP to upload a ZIP
file of your documents.

For a business contigency plan, I'm sure that a responsible
online backup service has a EULA that should be read that lays
out terms and liabilities.

(no financial relationship with ibackup. I just see it used
on a daily basis.)

>
>
>On 14 Jan 2005 15:00:22 GMT, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage chrisisasavage@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
>>> workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
>
>----
>Paul J. Hurley
>Caliban Computing
>http://www.Caliban.com/
>Spam resistant return email address.


--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 3:11:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Paul J. Hurley <hurleyp@NoSpam.caliban.com> writes:
> Has anyone here tried any of the online backup solutions offered by
> some ISP's? Essentially you pay a monthly fee for a block of storage
> (500MB, 1GB, 2GB, 5GB, whatever) on a server located "somewhere" and
> some software that runs in the background on your local machine that
> uploads files after changes, compressed and encrypted of course. The
> advantage is that all of this is automated and there is no additional
> hardware to deal with. This can be a disadvantage as well.

If it's just a few MB, that might work pretty well. Transferring 5GB
over a typical broadband connection will be pretty slow. Also, I
don't know any of those services that provide encryption on the client
side by default. You have to supply your own.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 6:14:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In article <7xis5yihad.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,
Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt; wrote:
>Paul J. Hurley <hurleyp@NoSpam.caliban.com> writes:
>> Has anyone here tried any of the online backup solutions offered by
>> some ISP's? Essentially you pay a monthly fee for a block of storage
>> (500MB, 1GB, 2GB, 5GB, whatever) on a server located "somewhere" and
>> some software that runs in the background on your local machine that
>> uploads files after changes, compressed and encrypted of course. The
>> advantage is that all of this is automated and there is no additional
>> hardware to deal with. This can be a disadvantage as well.
>
>If it's just a few MB, that might work pretty well. Transferring 5GB
>over a typical broadband connection will be pretty slow. Also, I
>don't know any of those services that provide encryption on the client
>side by default. You have to supply your own.


The daily upload would be _really_ slow on an adsl line,
but some smart software that only sent modofied files would make
the best of things (or someting that works in background.

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 8:16:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
> - MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM
>
>To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
>diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

Is that DVD-RAM in an original unopened cartridge only or would you
include DVD-RAM without a cartridge if it is handled carefully?
--
I am TERRIBLY cruel to my cat. I tease him with a vine tendril
until he either jumps up in the air to bat at it or zooms around
in a circle until he gets too dizzy to stand up. What is cruel about
it is that I don't do it nearly as much as he wants me to.


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Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 8:53:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
> - MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM
>
>To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
>diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

Is that DVD-RAM in an original unopened cartridge only or would you
include DVD-RAM without a cartridge if it is handled carefully?
--
I am TERRIBLY cruel to my cat. I tease him with a vine tendril
until he either jumps up in the air to bat at it or zooms around
in a circle until he gets too dizzy to stand up. What is cruel about
it is that I don't do it nearly as much as he wants me to.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 15, 2005 9:22:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
> - MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM
>
>To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
>diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

Is that DVD-RAM in an original unopened cartridge only or would you
include DVD-RAM without a cartridge if it is handled carefully?
--
I am TERRIBLY cruel to my cat. I tease him with a vine tendril
until he either jumps up in the air to bat at it or zooms around
in a circle until he gets too dizzy to stand up. What is cruel about
it is that I don't do it nearly as much as he wants me to.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 16, 2005 2:12:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Paul J. Hurley <hurleyp@nospam.caliban.com> wrote:
> Has anyone here tried any of the online backup solutions offered by
> some ISP's? Essentially you pay a monthly fee for a block of storage
> (500MB, 1GB, 2GB, 5GB, whatever) on a server located "somewhere" and
> some software that runs in the background on your local machine that
> uploads files after changes, compressed and encrypted of course. The
> advantage is that all of this is automated and there is no additional
> hardware to deal with. This can be a disadvantage as well.

> Opinions?

It is surely a good solution for a single off-site backup if
a) confidentiallity is really ensured
b) you data volume is low

It is not a replacement for a backup with several independent media
sets, unless the online service does that type of backup on the
storage, the cycle time fits your needs _and_ they allow you access
to older backups.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 16, 2005 5:01:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Daniel Prince <neutrino1@comcast.net> wrote:
> Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>>High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
>> - MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM
>>
>>To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
>>diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

> Is that DVD-RAM in an original unopened cartridge only or would you
> include DVD-RAM without a cartridge if it is handled carefully?

DVD-RAM is a good solution, but not as reliable as MOD. MOD
is allways with cartridge and verify after each write.

With DVD-RAM you get either, but usually not both, i.e. cartridges
don't need to be verified by the drive and blank disks need to be but
do not have a cartridge.

Personally if the disk is handled only with gloves and stored in
a dark place, cartridge-less DVD-RAM should be o.k., but note that
they only have 100.000 certified write cycles.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 16, 2005 8:51:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

<chrisisasavage@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105650059.340774.306560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
> workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
> biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
> or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
> for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
> model.
>
> Thanks

Exabyte VXA-2 fits your bill. Pricewatch lists them for just under $800. You
can then use X10 tapes for 35GB native, and once you need them, use X23
tapes to get 80GB native.

Rob
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 16, 2005 11:15:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

On 01/16/2005 11:51 AM Rob Turk wrote:

><chrisisasavage@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1105650059.340774.306560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>>I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
>>workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
>>biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
>>or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
>>for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
>>model.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>
>
>Exabyte VXA-2 fits your bill. Pricewatch lists them for just under $800. You
>can then use X10 tapes for 35GB native, and once you need them, use X23
>tapes to get 80GB native.
>
>Rob
>
>
>
>
Rob,

How fortunate for you that your personal finances permit you to see
"just under $800." as affordable. I am not quite sure that the OP would
agree. I certainly don't. Affordable to me is $200. and that's why I
am now looking at external HDD.

--
________
To email me, Edit "xt" from my email address.
Brian M. Kochera
"Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"
View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 1:14:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

"Brian K" <brianxt1951@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%XzGd.874$Rs.136@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>
>>Exabyte VXA-2 fits your bill. Pricewatch lists them for just under $800.
>>You can then use X10 tapes for 35GB native, and once you need them, use
>>X23 tapes to get 80GB native.
>>
>>Rob
>>
> Rob,
>
> How fortunate for you that your personal finances permit you to see "just
> under $800." as affordable. I am not quite sure that the OP would agree.
> I certainly don't. Affordable to me is $200. and that's why I am now
> looking at external HDD.

OP was asking for a tape option (See subject: Tape Backup). VXA-2 is as
affordable as it gets for a reliable tape drive in the capacity range he
asked for. $800 is a lot of money and you'll need to invest another $150 in
a set of tapes, but that buys you a lot of protection.

HDD backup isn't bad for casual safety copies of your data, but it isn't
backup. For real backup you will want to go back a number of versions
("whoops, that file got corrupted two weeks ago.."), and you want to store
at least one copy off-site. If it's just your personal MP3 collection, then
HDD is fine. If you want multiple versions of your backup then you may have
to get multiple drives. That's $200 plus another $200, plus maybe another
$200.... If you get hit by a virus while you backup drive is attached, poof
goes your backup. If you drop your harddisk, poof goes your backup. If your
house gets hit by a lightning strike, poof goes your backup. And one
arguement often overlooked, an external HDD attracts a lot of unwanted
attention from uninvited guests, poof goes your backup. Tapes on the other
hand are 'dull', unattractive and will rarely be stolen by a casual thieve.

If it's your tax administration, your current consultancy projects, your
source code, your thesis, your latest novel or your entire customer
administration then a tape drive and a decent backup strategy is money well
spent. If $800 is too much, then maybe a VXA-1 will do, or you can try to
find a deal at eBay.

Rob
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 1:14:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

"Rob Turk" <_wipe_me_r.turk@chello.nl> writes:
> OP was asking for a tape option (See subject: Tape Backup). VXA-2 is as
> affordable as it gets for a reliable tape drive in the capacity range he
> asked for. $800 is a lot of money and you'll need to invest another $150 in
> a set of tapes, but that buys you a lot of protection.
>
> HDD backup isn't bad for casual safety copies of your data, but it isn't
> backup. For real backup you will want to go back a number of versions
> ("whoops, that file got corrupted two weeks ago.."), and you want to store
> at least one copy off-site. If it's just your personal MP3 collection, then
> HDD is fine. If you want multiple versions of your backup then you may have
> to get multiple drives. That's $200 plus another $200, plus maybe another
> $200....

Well, $200 gets you around 300 GB of hard disc space. VXA2 X23 tape
is $85/80GB so to back up the same amount of data on tape, you spend
over $300 just on the blank tape.

> If you get hit by a virus while you backup drive is attached, poof
> goes your backup. If you drop your harddisk, poof goes your backup. If your
> house gets hit by a lightning strike, poof goes your backup.

True, and just leaving HD's sitting around long enough often results
in them failing when you spin them up again.

> And one arguement often overlooked, an external HDD attracts a lot
> of unwanted attention from uninvited guests, poof goes your
> backup. Tapes on the other hand are 'dull', unattractive and will
> rarely be stolen by a casual thieve.

Also a good point--keep them hidden away or locked up.

> If $800 is too much, then maybe a VXA-1 will do, or you can try to
> find a deal at eBay.

Here's a new LTO-1 for $625:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5156...

If it's your tax administration, your current consultancy
projects, your source code, your thesis, your latest novel or your
entire customer administration then a tape drive and a decent
backup strategy is money well spent. If $800 is too much, then
maybe a VXA-1 will do, or you can try to find a deal at eBay.

I don't know about customer administration but the other examples
sound like such small amounts of data that you might just encrypt
them and upload them to your ISP.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 1:14:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Rob Turk wrote:

> "Brian K" <brianxt1951@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:%XzGd.874$Rs.136@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>>Exabyte VXA-2 fits your bill. Pricewatch lists them for just under $800.
>>>You can then use X10 tapes for 35GB native, and once you need them, use
>>>X23 tapes to get 80GB native.
>>>
>>>Rob
>>>
>> Rob,
>>
>> How fortunate for you that your personal finances permit you to see "just
>> under $800." as affordable. I am not quite sure that the OP would agree.
>> I certainly don't. Affordable to me is $200. and that's why I am now
>> looking at external HDD.
>
> OP was asking for a tape option (See subject: Tape Backup). VXA-2 is as
> affordable as it gets for a reliable tape drive in the capacity range he
> asked for. $800 is a lot of money and you'll need to invest another $150
> in a set of tapes, but that buys you a lot of protection.
>
> HDD backup isn't bad for casual safety copies of your data, but it isn't
> backup. For real backup you will want to go back a number of versions
> ("whoops, that file got corrupted two weeks ago.."), and you want to store
> at least one copy off-site.

And disk prevents you from doing this how?

> If it's just your personal MP3 collection,
> then HDD is fine. If you want multiple versions of your backup then you
> may have to get multiple drives. That's $200 plus another $200, plus maybe
> another $200....

$200 gets you a 300 gig drive. 40 gig drives go for about 50 bucks, a
little less than a V17 tape.

> If you get hit by a virus while you backup drive is
> attached, poof goes your backup.

And how is copying infected files to a tape superior to copying them to a
disk?

> If you drop your harddisk, poof goes your
> backup.

If you drop it hard enough in its shock-mounted caddy to exceed 350 g
acceleration then "poof" goes that day's backup. If you leave the tape on
top of your car and drive off poof there goes your backup too. If you
can't afford to lose one day's backup to damaged media then you need to
pursue a parallel backup strategy.

> If your house gets hit by a lightning strike, poof goes your
> backup.

And there is something magic about tape that makes it immune to the intense
magnetic fields that go with a lightning strike? How is it that a disk,
with its much higher coercivity and its metal shell all around the media
manages to get damaged while a tape survives?

This is one reason you retain an off-site backup.

> And one arguement often overlooked, an external HDD attracts a lot
> of unwanted attention from uninvited guests, poof goes your backup. Tapes
> on the other hand are 'dull', unattractive and will rarely be stolen by a
> casual thieve.

So? This is another reason you maintain an off-site backup. In any case, a
disk in a caddy generally doesn't look too sexy either.

> If it's your tax administration, your current consultancy projects, your
> source code, your thesis, your latest novel or your entire customer
> administration then a tape drive and a decent backup strategy is money
> well spent. If $800 is too much, then maybe a VXA-1 will do, or you can
> try to find a deal at eBay.

So who is better off, the guy with an 800 buck tape drive and one tape, or
the guy with 16 disks in caddys that he's running a two-week rotation
backup on?

You seem to be assuming that someone performing disk-based backup will only
spend 40 bucks for one disk but will spend over a thousand for a tape drive
and tapes. That's not the alternative, the altnernative is to use a bunch
of 50 buck tapes and an 800 buck drive or use a bunch of 50 buck disks that
don't need a separate drive.
>
> Rob

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 1:14:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> writes:
> > If you get hit by a virus while you backup drive is
> > attached, poof goes your backup.
>
> And how is copying infected files to a tape superior to copying them to a
> disk?

I think the idea is that you could have an uninfected backup drive
attached to your PC when the virus runs, the virus can wipe out the
backup drive even though you weren't doing a backup at the time.

The solution is if you're backing up to HD's, use removable HD's and
make sure they're actually removed except when a backup is in
progress.

> > If your house gets hit by a lightning strike, poof goes your backup.
>
> And there is something magic about tape that makes it immune to the intense
> magnetic fields that go with a lightning strike? How is it that a disk,
> with its much higher coercivity and its metal shell all around the media
> manages to get damaged while a tape survives?

The magnetic files aren't THAT strong. Neither the disk platters nor
the tape gets erased. The lightning fries the drive electronics (disk
or tape), not the media. With a disk, once the electronics are fried,
you can't read the platters any more, without some ultra-expensive
data recovery attempt that isn't successful all that often. With
tape, you just put the tape into another drive and read it normally.

> You seem to be assuming that someone performing disk-based backup will only
> spend 40 bucks for one disk but will spend over a thousand for a tape drive
> and tapes. That's not the alternative, the altnernative is to use a bunch
> of 50 buck tapes and an 800 buck drive or use a bunch of 50 buck disks that
> don't need a separate drive.

I dunno about 50 buck discs, I think you have to spend a bit more if
you want external enclosures. If you just mean those pull-out caddy
type discs, you have to power down your PC when you install or remove
one of those things, which makes backup considerably less convenient.

Tape really does seem to be superior for backup, and VXA drives are
pretty good technology. Their main drawback is that the tapes are so
expensive. Right now I back up to HD, but am looking towards LTO.
LTO-3 has just started shipping (400 GB native!) and perhaps as a
result, there's been quite a drop in the cost of LTO-{1,2} drives and
media over the past few months.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 3:47:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> writes:
>> > If you get hit by a virus while you backup drive is
>> > attached, poof goes your backup.
>>
>> And how is copying infected files to a tape superior to copying them to a
>> disk?
>
> I think the idea is that you could have an uninfected backup drive
> attached to your PC when the virus runs, the virus can wipe out the
> backup drive even though you weren't doing a backup at the time.
>
> The solution is if you're backing up to HD's, use removable HD's and
> make sure they're actually removed except when a backup is in
> progress.

The thing is, if the machine is "hit by a virus" while the daily backup disk
is in the machine you lose that day's data, not the previous day's.
Assuming that the virus will actually corrupt a compressed, encrypted image
file in a nonrecoverable way.

>> > If your house gets hit by a lightning strike, poof goes your backup.
>>
>> And there is something magic about tape that makes it immune to the
>> intense
>> magnetic fields that go with a lightning strike? How is it that a disk,
>> with its much higher coercivity and its metal shell all around the media
>> manages to get damaged while a tape survives?
>
> The magnetic files aren't THAT strong. Neither the disk platters nor
> the tape gets erased. The lightning fries the drive electronics (disk
> or tape), not the media. With a disk, once the electronics are fried,
> you can't read the platters any more, without some ultra-expensive
> data recovery attempt that isn't successful all that often. With
> tape, you just put the tape into another drive and read it normally.

If the contents of the platters remain undamaged then the recovery isn't
going to be all that expensive--a circuit board swap will probably do it.

>> You seem to be assuming that someone performing disk-based backup will
>> only spend 40 bucks for one disk but will spend over a thousand for a
>> tape drive
>> and tapes. That's not the alternative, the altnernative is to use a
>> bunch of 50 buck tapes and an 800 buck drive or use a bunch of 50 buck
>> disks that don't need a separate drive.
>
> I dunno about 50 buck discs, I think you have to spend a bit more if
> you want external enclosures.

Why would one want "external enclosures? A Kingwin drive bay costs 25 bucks
and you pay about 14 for the trays.

> If you just mean those pull-out caddy
> type discs, you have to power down your PC

Maybe _you_ do, but I don't. Disable the drive, pull it, insert the new
one, enable it. SATA is designed to support hot-swap and it actually works
reasonably well.

> when you install or remove
> one of those things, which makes backup considerably less convenient.


> Tape really does seem to be superior for backup, and VXA drives are
> pretty good technology. Their main drawback is that the tapes are so
> expensive. Right now I back up to HD, but am looking towards LTO.
> LTO-3 has just started shipping (400 GB native!) and perhaps as a
> result, there's been quite a drop in the cost of LTO-{1,2} drives and
> media over the past few months.

Tape is cost effective for some purposes, not for others. If you need
_reliable_ backup then put two drive bays in your machine, attach them to a
RAID controller, backup to a RAID-1, then take one disk home and leave the
other at work. Do _that_ with tape for a reasonable cost--the software
alone will buy you quite a lot of disks, and you'll need two tape drives.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 3:47:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> writes:
> > The solution is if you're backing up to HD's, use removable HD's and
> > make sure they're actually removed except when a backup is in
> > progress.
>
> The thing is, if the machine is "hit by a virus" while the daily
> backup disk is in the machine you lose that day's data, not the
> previous day's. Assuming that the virus will actually corrupt a
> compressed, encrypted image file in a nonrecoverable way.

If a compressed, encrypted image is corrupted at all, it's probably
unrecoverable.

> > The magnetic files aren't THAT strong. Neither the disk platters nor
> > the tape gets erased. The lightning fries the drive electronics
>
> If the contents of the platters remain undamaged then the recovery isn't
> going to be all that expensive--a circuit board swap will probably do it.

That's easier said than done. I won't say it never works, but all
attempts that I've heard of (not that many) to recover data by just
swapping circuit boards have failed. And the places that did it
charged a bundle.

> > If you just mean those pull-out caddy type discs, you have to
> > power down your PC
>
> Maybe _you_ do, but I don't. Disable the drive, pull it, insert the new
> one, enable it. SATA is designed to support hot-swap and it actually works
> reasonably well.

Oh good point, I'm used to regular ATA. Hmm. I wonder if they will
start putting SATA in laptops, with an external SATA connector.

> Tape is cost effective for some purposes, not for others. If you need
> _reliable_ backup then put two drive bays in your machine, attach them to a
> RAID controller, backup to a RAID-1, then take one disk home and leave the
> other at work. Do _that_ with tape for a reasonable cost--the software
> alone will buy you quite a lot of disks, and you'll need two tape drives.

I see RAID as good for crash protection but not so good for backup.
Right now as mentioned, I'm using HD's for backup but I'm not
impressed with their reliability. I'm hoping to move up to a tape
drive again sooner or later (my old DDS-2 drive's 4GB capacity is
pathetic by today's standards). I only use free software, so that's
not a significant cost component.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 10:39:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

"Paul Rubin" <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt; wrote in message
news:7xsm51nels.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
> "Rob Turk" <_wipe_me_r.turk@chello.nl> writes:
>
> Well, $200 gets you around 300 GB of hard disc space. VXA2 X23 tape
> is $85/80GB so to back up the same amount of data on tape, you spend
> over $300 just on the blank tape.
>
With tape you can select the capacity independent of the drive, keeping your
backups separate. OP could start with X10 media, which does exactly 40GB
native, for $32 each. See:
http://www.exabyte.com/products/tape/xtape.cfm

> I don't know about customer administration but the other examples
> sound like such small amounts of data that you might just encrypt
> them and upload them to your ISP.

I've looked into that too, one of the major stumbling blocks has been how to
get the data out if something happens to the service provider. If you get
into a dispute, they can take your data hostage. If they go belly-up or get
if they get taken over, how do you ensure you can still get your data back.
Even when you want to transfer to an ISP for better rates, how do you get
your backups out? Again, for your personal MP3 collection there's no
problem. Besides, your MP3 collection is stored onto the Internet multiple
times over already.. ;^)

If it's data that you depend your business or finances on I'd rather have
full control.

Rob
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 10:39:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

"Rob Turk" <_wipe_me_r.turk@chello.nl> writes:
> > I don't know about customer administration but the other examples
> > sound like such small amounts of data that you might just encrypt
> > them and upload them to your ISP.
>
> I've looked into that too, one of the major stumbling blocks has been how to
> get the data out if something happens to the service provider. If you get
> into a dispute, they can take your data hostage. If they go belly-up or get
> if they get taken over, how do you ensure you can still get your data back.

We were talking about stuff like drafts of a novel, which is just a
few MB. It's simple enough to put it in several places. I've also
had ISP's go belly-up several times; some scrambling resulted each
time but there was never a serious problem getting the data out. (In
one case we hired one of the belly-up ISP's suddenly-out-of-work
employees and they let him continue having access to the data center
so he could get our stuff out).

> Even when you want to transfer to an ISP for better rates, how do you get
> your backups out?

Download it, just like you uploaded it.

> Again, for your personal MP3 collection there's no
> problem. Besides, your MP3 collection is stored onto the Internet multiple
> times over already.. ;^)

Heh, yes, an MP3 collection would be too large for this approach though.

> If it's data that you depend your business or finances on I'd rather have
> full control.

There's no such thing as full control, as the recent earthquake and
tsunamis in Asia recently illustrated for those of us who forget that
sometimes.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 11:28:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <jclarke@nospam.invalid> writes:
>> > The solution is if you're backing up to HD's, use removable HD's and
>> > make sure they're actually removed except when a backup is in
>> > progress.
>>
>> The thing is, if the machine is "hit by a virus" while the daily
>> backup disk is in the machine you lose that day's data, not the
>> previous day's. Assuming that the virus will actually corrupt a
>> compressed, encrypted image file in a nonrecoverable way.
>
> If a compressed, encrypted image is corrupted at all, it's probably
> unrecoverable.

But will a virus typically attack any file that is not executable? While
some do, is that the normal action?

>> > The magnetic files aren't THAT strong. Neither the disk platters nor
>> > the tape gets erased. The lightning fries the drive electronics
>>
>> If the contents of the platters remain undamaged then the recovery isn't
>> going to be all that expensive--a circuit board swap will probably do it.
>
> That's easier said than done. I won't say it never works, but all
> attempts that I've heard of (not that many) to recover data by just
> swapping circuit boards have failed. And the places that did it
> charged a bundle.

It's actually quite easily done. You pull the board off of your off-site
drive and put it on the dead drive, which generally involves about ten
minutes with a screwdriver.

Generally such an attempt is tried on a drive that is dead of undetermined
causes, not one on which the problem is known to be fried electronics. But
in the real world one would not try to fix that drive anymore than one
would try to fix a tape cartridge that got dropped and cracked. It's a
disposable device and you go to the previous day's backup.

The thing is, for any kind of backup system you can make up a scenario in
which it will fail. The question is how likely is that scenario and will
you care about your backups if it occurs.

>> > If you just mean those pull-out caddy type discs, you have to
>> > power down your PC
>>
>> Maybe _you_ do, but I don't. Disable the drive, pull it, insert the new
>> one, enable it. SATA is designed to support hot-swap and it actually
>> works reasonably well.
>
> Oh good point, I'm used to regular ATA. Hmm. I wonder if they will
> start putting SATA in laptops, with an external SATA connector.

Easily done--SATA PCCard adapters go for about 20 bucks. I have a couple of
250 gig disks in external enclosures that I carry to client sites to back
up their disks when I'm going to do something that puts their data at risk
or am going to swap out a drive--I run them in RAID-1 so that if I manage
to destroy one I haven't lost their data.

>> Tape is cost effective for some purposes, not for others. If you need
>> _reliable_ backup then put two drive bays in your machine, attach them to
>> a RAID controller, backup to a RAID-1, then take one disk home and leave
>> the
>> other at work. Do _that_ with tape for a reasonable cost--the software
>> alone will buy you quite a lot of disks, and you'll need two tape drives.
>
> I see RAID as good for crash protection but not so good for backup.

Read what I wrote again. I didn't say "use RAID for backup". I said backup
_to_ the RAID. The step I assumed was obvious was to "then pull both
drives, replace them with the next day's backup set, take one home, leave
the other in the safe".

There is software that does this with tapes. You need two tape drives and
the last time I checked the price the software was a thousand dollar add-in
to a several thousand dollar enterprise backup package. There's a
crossover point on very large systems where a tape library becomes cost
effective. For home use the cost of reliable tape is prohibitive.

> Right now as mentioned, I'm using HD's for backup but I'm not
> impressed with their reliability.

Are you using just one disk or are you using a set of them in a rotation
backup like you would with tapes?

> I'm hoping to move up to a tape
> drive again sooner or later (my old DDS-2 drive's 4GB capacity is
> pathetic by today's standards). I only use free software, so that's
> not a significant cost component.

I have a number of tape drives. The trouble with them is that disk capacity
is increasing faster than tape capacity, and you need a state of the art
tape to back up a cheap disk.

And quite honestly, I'd trust disk over DDS. I've had DDS drives eat
multiple tapes.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 12:25:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Rob Turk wrote:

> "Paul Rubin" <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid&gt; wrote in message
> news:7xsm51nels.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
>> "Rob Turk" <_wipe_me_r.turk@chello.nl> writes:
>>
>> Well, $200 gets you around 300 GB of hard disc space. VXA2 X23 tape
>> is $85/80GB so to back up the same amount of data on tape, you spend
>> over $300 just on the blank tape.
>>
> With tape you can select the capacity independent of the drive, keeping
> your backups separate. OP could start with X10 media, which does exactly
> 40GB native, for $32 each. See:
> http://www.exabyte.com/products/tape/xtape.cfm

X10 does 40 native on a VXA-2 drive, the cheapest of which bought new goes
for 810 bucks. Doesn't work at all on a VXA-1. The best price I see on
the tapes is 23 bucks. 40 gig SATA disks in shock-mounted removable
drawers go for $64, and the tray to put it in goes for $25. So let's see
how many generations of backup we can maintain for a given dollar figure.
Just for hohos let's see what it looks like for 80 gig ($67), too, which is
as large as VXA2 ($62 for X23) goes.

Cost VXA Disk VXA Disk
X10 40 X23 80

89 0 1 0 0
153 0 2 0 1
217 0 3 0 2
281 0 4 0 3
345 0 5 0 4
409 0 6 0 5
473 0 7 0 6
537 0 8 0 7
601 0 9 0 8
665 0 10 0 9
729 0 11 0 10
793 0 12 0 11
857 2 13 0 12
921 4 14 1 13
985 7 15 2 14
1049 10 16 3 15
1113 13 17 4 16
1177 15 18 5 17
1241 18 19 6 18
1305 21 20 7 19


So until you're up to 20 generations of backup the VXA costs more than disk.
With 80 gig disk vs VXA, I'm not going to show the whole table, but the
crossover occurs at 153 generations of backup. For 120 GB you'd have to
use an X10 and an X23 for $90 vs disk in drawer for 89 and VXA _never_
breaks even, not to mention having to change media in mid stream.

>> I don't know about customer administration but the other examples
>> sound like such small amounts of data that you might just encrypt
>> them and upload them to your ISP.
>
> I've looked into that too, one of the major stumbling blocks has been how
> to get the data out if something happens to the service provider. If you
> get into a dispute, they can take your data hostage.

They can take your data hostage only if you have managed to lose it while
the dispute is going on. Seems to me that if a dispute is starting the
thing to do is go to an alternative backup strategy.

> If they go belly-up
> or get if they get taken over, how do you ensure you can still get your
> data back. Even when you want to transfer to an ISP for better rates, how
> do you get your backups out?

Why do you want to "get your backups out"? Backups are, by their very
nature, disposable. Perhaps you are confusing "archives" with "backups"?
A backup exists so that you can recover when your system fails or suffers
data loss for some other reason. All the data in a backup is online on
your system except possibly for unintentionally deleted files, which on any
decent server you can recover for quite some time even without backups. If
someone steals your backups or destroys them or anything else happens to
them, you just start a new set. Losing backups is a big deal only to the
extent that someone might obtain confidential information from them and to
the extent that there is a _tiny_ risk that your system will fail in the
interval between loss of the old backups and start of the new set.

If you _care_ about the content of it beyond that it accurately reflect the
state of your system on the day it was made, if it's not disposable, then
it's not a backup, it's an archive, and the considerations for an archive
are very different from those for a backup.

> Again, for your personal MP3 collection
> there's no problem. Besides, your MP3 collection is stored onto the
> Internet multiple times over already.. ;^)

How about the video of my kid's first birthday?

> If it's data that you depend your business or finances on I'd rather have
> full control.

>
> Rob

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
January 17, 2005 12:27:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,comp.arch.storage (More info?)

Paul Rubin wrote:

> "Rob Turk" <_wipe_me_r.turk@chello.nl> writes:
>> > I don't know about customer administration but the other examples
>> > sound like such small amounts of data that you might just encrypt
>> > them and upload them to your ISP.
>>
>> I've looked into that too, one of the major stumbling blocks has been how
>> to get the data out if something happens to the service provider. If you
>> get into a dispute, they can take your data hostage. If they go belly-up
>> or get if they get taken over, how do you ensure you can still get your
>> data back.
>
> We were talking about stuff like drafts of a novel, which is just a
> few MB. It's simple enough to put it in several places. I've also
> had ISP's go belly-up several times; some scrambling resulted each
> time but there was never a serious problem getting the data out. (In
> one case we hired one of the belly-up ISP's suddenly-out-of-work
> employees and they let him continue having access to the data center
> so he could get our stuff out).
>
>> Even when you want to transfer to an ISP for better rates, how do you get
>> your backups out?
>
> Download it, just like you uploaded it.
>
>> Again, for your personal MP3 collection there's no
>> problem. Besides, your MP3 collection is stored onto the Internet
>> multiple times over already.. ;^)
>
> Heh, yes, an MP3 collection would be too large for this approach though.
>
>> If it's data that you depend your business or finances on I'd rather have
>> full control.
>
> There's no such thing as full control, as the recent earthquake and
> tsunamis in Asia recently illustrated for those of us who forget that
> sometimes.

Anyone who thinks that there is "full control" should visit a museum which
has a full scale T-rex skeleton on display and consider what happened to
them.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
!