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Backup/Imaging Software w/ support for USB drives?

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 25, 2005 12:59:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I am looking for a reliable and affordable backup/imaging software that
will allow me to backup a partition from an internal harddrive (with
optional compression) to an external USB harddisk and restore the image
later with minimum fuss. The machines in question have no floppy
drives, so I probably need a software that can boot the PC from
CD-ROM/DVD and then find and restore the image from the external USB HD
(I assume that booting from a USB stick will not work with most PCs
....).

I have Drive Image 2002, but as it seems it will not let me restore
data from USB drives (or is there a way)?

What do you guys suggest?

Ghost? I heard quite some bitching about it.
TrueImage?
Something else?

I need no fancy extras, just a reliable and easy-to-use imaging/restore
solution ...

TIA.
April 25, 2005 5:06:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> I am looking for a reliable and affordable backup/imaging software that
> will allow me to backup a partition from an internal harddrive (with
> optional compression) to an external USB harddisk and restore the image
> later with minimum fuss. The machines in question have no floppy
> drives, so I probably need a software that can boot the PC from
> CD-ROM/DVD and then find and restore the image from the external USB HD
> (I assume that booting from a USB stick will not work with most PCs
> ...).
>
> I have Drive Image 2002, but as it seems it will not let me restore
> data from USB drives (or is there a way)?
>
> What do you guys suggest?
>
> Ghost? I heard quite some bitching about it.
> TrueImage?
> Something else?
>
> I need no fancy extras, just a reliable and easy-to-use imaging/restore
> solution ...

Lets take a defferent approach.
So you want to use external USB HD for storing images? OK.
Which operating system you use most often when you want to
read or write to the external USB HD? Stick to it.
Create a bootable CD for your selected OS.
Now look for imaging applications which can work with that CD.
For Linux that would probably be Acronis TI.
For Win2k3/XP I would choose ghost32.exe.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 25, 2005 5:06:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Peter" <peterfoxghost@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:vs9be.907$BW6.336846@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > I am looking for a reliable and affordable backup/imaging software that
> > will allow me to backup a partition from an internal harddrive (with
> > optional compression) to an external USB harddisk and restore the image
> > later with minimum fuss. The machines in question have no floppy
> > drives, so I probably need a software that can boot the PC from
> > CD-ROM/DVD and then find and restore the image from the external USB HD
>
> Lets take a defferent approach.
> So you want to use external USB HD for storing images? OK.
> Which operating system you use most often when you want to
> read or write to the external USB HD? Stick to it.
> Create a bootable CD for your selected OS.
> Now look for imaging applications which can work with that CD.
> For Linux that would probably be Acronis TI.
> For Win2k3/XP I would choose ghost32.exe.
>
I take it you mean create Bart's WinPE CD. In that case you can use ntbackup.

Another option is Win32 UnxUtils: http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/

cipher /w:X: # zero free space
dd if=//./X: | gzip >driveX.imz # backup
gzip -d <driveX.imz | dd of=//./X: # restore
Related resources
April 26, 2005 1:24:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> > Lets take a defferent approach.
> > So you want to use external USB HD for storing images? OK.
> > Which operating system you use most often when you want to
> > read or write to the external USB HD? Stick to it.
> > Create a bootable CD for your selected OS.
> > Now look for imaging applications which can work with that CD.
> > For Linux that would probably be Acronis TI.
> > For Win2k3/XP I would choose ghost32.exe.
> >
> I take it you mean create Bart's WinPE CD. In that case you can use
ntbackup.
>
> Another option is Win32 UnxUtils: http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
>
> cipher /w:X: # zero free space
> dd if=//./X: | gzip >driveX.imz # backup
> gzip -d <driveX.imz | dd of=//./X: # restore

I don't think that ntbackup is really an imaging tool because you have to
reinstall Windows to use it.

dd technique is not flexible enough and lacks most of the sophistication
found in ghost and similar programs. Like browsing image to restore
selected files, restore to different disk geometires, resizing partitions,
skipping swap files, etc.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 1:24:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Peter" <peterfoxghost@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:zLgbe.1241$BW6.446378@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > Lets take a defferent approach.
> > > So you want to use external USB HD for storing images? OK.
> > > Which operating system you use most often when you want to
> > > read or write to the external USB HD? Stick to it.
> > > Create a bootable CD for your selected OS.
> > > Now look for imaging applications which can work with that CD.
> > > For Linux that would probably be Acronis TI.
> > > For Win2k3/XP I would choose ghost32.exe.
> > >
> > I take it you mean create Bart's WinPE CD. In that case you can use
> ntbackup.
>
> I don't think that ntbackup is really an imaging tool because you have to
> reinstall Windows to use it.
>
Nope, just run ntbackup from WinPE.
April 26, 2005 2:44:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> > I don't think that ntbackup is really an imaging tool because you have
to
> > reinstall Windows to use it.
> >
> Nope, just run ntbackup from WinPE.

I thought that you have to run ntbackup from Windows XP Setup
to be able to recover system. And that you have to have ASR floppy too.
That looks a bit complicated when there is no floppy drive and backup
data is on USB HD.

So how do you do that while running WinPE?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 9:20:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

All right, I will purchase TI. The WinPE road looks like, err, an
interesting challenge :)  , and I just want a simple, out-of-the-box
solution. Also, the Acronis support rep just confirmed that I can get a
refund in case it doesnt work.

Thank you, guys.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 9:51:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

<wintermute_101_nospam@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:1114444756.135883.68450@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> I am looking for a reliable and affordable backup/imaging software that
> will allow me to backup a partition from an internal harddrive (with
> optional compression) to an external USB harddisk and restore the image
> later with minimum fuss. The machines in question have no floppy
> drives, so I probably need a software that can boot the PC from
> CD-ROM/DVD and then find and restore the image from the external USB HD

> (I assume that booting from a USB stick will not work with most PCs ...).

Correct.

> I have Drive Image 2002, but as it seems it will not let
> me restore data from USB drives (or is there a way)?

DI 2002 does the restores at the DOS level, that is the problem.

There is atleast one USB DOS driver around, but it makes more
sense to use an imaging app that supports USB natively now.

> What do you guys suggest?

True Image in your situation.

> Ghost? I heard quite some bitching about it.

Yeah, the latest Ghost 9 is a rather flawed product. It will do that
restore from USB after booting its CD but it wont do some other
stuff like creating the image after booting its CD, you have to install
it first and it only works with the NT/2K/XP family, not with Win9x or ME.

And has got some real design flaws if you ever want to clone
the boot drive when replacing it with something larger too.

> TrueImage?

That's currently the imager of choice in my opinion.

Not perfect, and it might not like you particular USB drive
or something, but you can get a refund if it doesnt.

> Something else?

Not that I'm game to trust for imaging.

TI has only recently become trustable in my opinion.

I used DI 2002 mostly until just recently.

> I need no fancy extras, just a reliable and
> easy-to-use imaging/restore solution ...

TI is certainly that and will do incremental images now
if you are using XP. I dont really trust incremental images
except for safety incase an install goes pear shaped tho.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 9:51:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
>>Ghost? I heard quite some bitching about it.
> Yeah, the latest Ghost 9 is a rather flawed product. It will do that
> restore from USB after booting its CD but it wont do some other
> stuff like creating the image after booting its CD, you have to install
> it first and it only works with the NT/2K/XP family, not with Win9x or ME.

I concur, Ghost 9 is not the best choice. From what I hear, Ghost 9 is
actually just Drive Image that's been rebranded (Symantec purchased
PowerQuest). However, previous versions of Ghost are excellent. I have
an old version (7?) and it's a great, life-saving program. I boot off a
floppy, but I suspect you could probably make a bootable CD of Ghost. I
believe Ghost 2003 can also create/restore images from Windows.

//Kevin
April 26, 2005 10:25:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> I believe Ghost 2003 can also create/restore images from Windows.

I'm afraid that you cannot. You have to boot DOS to create/restore images
with Ghost 2003.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 11:52:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

http://ghost.radified.com/

Has a good overview of Ghost, including:

"New version: 02.august.2004 - Symantec announces the release of Ghost
v9.0. Ghost 9 is controversial, because it's not really Ghost. It's
actually Drive Image, a similar imaging/cloning product developed by
PowerQuest, a company Symantec purchased on 05.dec.2003."

"New version: 26.august.2002 - Symantec releases Ghost 2003. This
version offers a Windows-based interface. Prior to v2003, you needed to
boot to DOS in order to create or restore an image. Being able to
configure Ghost from Windows makes the program more user-friendly."

I wouldn't suggest restoring images while in Windows, though. I'd
suggest that you stick with DOS based Imaging tools.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 11:57:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <zLgbe.1241$BW6.446378@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Peter <peterfoxghost@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> > Lets take a defferent approach.
>> > So you want to use external USB HD for storing images? OK.
>> > Which operating system you use most often when you want to
>> > read or write to the external USB HD? Stick to it.
>> > Create a bootable CD for your selected OS.
>> > Now look for imaging applications which can work with that CD.
>> > For Linux that would probably be Acronis TI.
>> > For Win2k3/XP I would choose ghost32.exe.
>> >
>> I take it you mean create Bart's WinPE CD. In that case you can use
>ntbackup.
>>
>> Another option is Win32 UnxUtils: http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
>>
>> cipher /w:X: # zero free space
>> dd if=//./X: | gzip >driveX.imz # backup
>> gzip -d <driveX.imz | dd of=//./X: # restore
>
>I don't think that ntbackup is really an imaging tool because you have to
>reinstall Windows to use it.
>

I haven't played with BartPE yet but I expect you boot a BartPE CD and
run ntbackup off it. You shou be able to reimage your C drive from any
saveste, boot and go. You might have to do something to recreate the
MBR.
--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 12:24:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <1114518037.606004.305390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
David Winter <wintermute_101_nospam@yahoo.de> wrote:
>All right, I will purchase TI. The WinPE road looks like, err, an
>interesting challenge :)  , and I just want a simple, out-of-the-box
>solution. Also, the Acronis support rep just confirmed that I can get a
>refund in case it doesnt work.
>
>Thank you, guys.
>


I use land like TI but IMO your USB experience depends on what brand
of USB controller and external device you have. Test your backups. At
a minimum read back your data every time until you are comfortable and
after then do it again once in a while.

Best case. Do a backup, pop a blank disk in your machine, boot the CD
and try to do restore, for real.





--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
April 26, 2005 1:02:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> I haven't played with BartPE yet but I expect you boot a BartPE CD and
> run ntbackup off it. You shou be able to reimage your C drive from any
> saveste, boot and go. You might have to do something to recreate the
> MBR.

I don't think you can boot a BartPE CD and run ntbackup off it.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 1:02:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter wrote:

>> I haven't played with BartPE yet but I expect you boot a BartPE CD and
>> run ntbackup off it. You shou be able to reimage your C drive from any
>> saveste, boot and go. You might have to do something to recreate the
>> MBR.
>
> I don't think you can boot a BartPE CD and run ntbackup off it.

Why not? You can also run Ghost 8 or Ghost 9 off of it. Or Acronis. Or
several other backup programs. Just google bartpe nt5backup plugin

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 1:18:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

One more question regarding True Image.

It seems that the license agreement requires one license per machine.
This means that I would have to purchase 2 licenses for my desktop PC
and my notebook - which would cost me as much as a Windows license.

So ... Does TI include a hardware-related activation mechanism or
"phone home" in one way or another?

I do not want to imply that I plan on doing something illegal here, but
purchasing this software twice just to back up a plain home system
seems a bit much. So I might do a "perfect" default configuration on my
Desktop PC, make an image, uninstall True Image and install it on the
notebook to do the same there. I wonder if Acronis could live with this
....
April 26, 2005 3:41:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> >> I haven't played with BartPE yet but I expect you boot a BartPE CD and
> >> run ntbackup off it. You shou be able to reimage your C drive from any
> >> saveste, boot and go. You might have to do something to recreate the
> >> MBR.
> >
> > I don't think you can boot a BartPE CD and run ntbackup off it.
>
> Why not?

Because nt5backup plugin fails with BartPE CD.

> You can also run Ghost 8 or Ghost 9 off of it. Or Acronis. Or
> several other backup programs. Just google bartpe nt5backup plugin

I know that Ghost 8 runs with BartPE. I have recommended to use
Ghost32.exe which is part of Ghost enterprise versions (7.5, 8.0, 8.2).

I don't know much about BartPE and Ghost 9 or BartPE and Acronis.
I doubt they work reliably (if at all) from BartPE.
April 26, 2005 4:34:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> One more question regarding True Image.
>
> It seems that the license agreement requires one license per machine.
> This means that I would have to purchase 2 licenses for my desktop PC
> and my notebook - which would cost me as much as a Windows license.
>
> So ... Does TI include a hardware-related activation mechanism or
> "phone home" in one way or another?
>
> I do not want to imply that I plan on doing something illegal here, but
> purchasing this software twice just to back up a plain home system
> seems a bit much. So I might do a "perfect" default configuration on my
> Desktop PC, make an image, uninstall True Image and install it on the
> notebook to do the same there. I wonder if Acronis could live with this

Acronis license agreement says:
"2. The Original Purchaser may use the Software on a single computer owned
or leased by the
Original Purchaser. You may not use the Software on more than a single
machine even if you
own or lease all of them without the written consent of Acronis."

I suggest to give them a call to clarify your intended use of TI, before you
make a purchase.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 6:04:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter wrote:

>> >> I haven't played with BartPE yet but I expect you boot a BartPE CD and
>> >> run ntbackup off it. You shou be able to reimage your C drive from any
>> >> saveste, boot and go. You might have to do something to recreate the
>> >> MBR.
>> >
>> > I don't think you can boot a BartPE CD and run ntbackup off it.
>>
>> Why not?
>
> Because nt5backup plugin fails with BartPE CD.

The plugin for BartPE fails on BartPE? Have you asked the developer about
this?

>> You can also run Ghost 8 or Ghost 9 off of it. Or Acronis. Or
>> several other backup programs. Just google bartpe nt5backup plugin
>
> I know that Ghost 8 runs with BartPE. I have recommended to use
> Ghost32.exe which is part of Ghost enterprise versions (7.5, 8.0, 8.2).
>
> I don't know much about BartPE and Ghost 9 or BartPE and Acronis.
> I doubt they work reliably (if at all) from BartPE.

In point of fact Acronis provides the BartPE plugin directly. Right now
they only provide it as a fix for folks who can't access their external
drive from the Acronis CD but that might change. And the Ghost 9 plugin
has been in test since October and from what I can tell seems to be pretty
well debugged.



--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 7:01:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ghost 2003 works fine for this. Comes with the latest version of Ghost
on sale today.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 26, 2005 7:03:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I would not trust any of the 'live' backup programs. How would they
know, when a file is being modified every milisecond, which version at
what time is the true, valid one to backup!?!

You can't know for sure, and certainly can't prove that a true, working,
100% perfect backup is being made of the system everytime you do this.

Only real way is to start up from a boot disk, bypassing all writes to
the HD in question, then run a backup program that'll image it off to
another drive/cd off-line.

---

Anyways, Ghost 2003 has worked perfectly for me to internal & external
drives, and is reliable.
April 26, 2005 11:31:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> I would not trust any of the 'live' backup programs. How would they
> know, when a file is being modified every milisecond, which version at
> what time is the true, valid one to backup!?!
>
> You can't know for sure, and certainly can't prove that a true, working,
> 100% perfect backup is being made of the system everytime you do this.
>
> Only real way is to start up from a boot disk, bypassing all writes to
> the HD in question, then run a backup program that'll image it off to
> another drive/cd off-line.
>
> Anyways, Ghost 2003 has worked perfectly for me to internal & external
> drives, and is reliable.

That is why I have suggested to boot off CD with WinPE or
Linux, then run a good imaging software.

While Ghost2003 worked for you, it might not work with newer
hardware which has poor or no support in DOS.
April 26, 2005 11:37:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> Ghost 2003 works fine for this. Comes with the latest version of Ghost
> on sale today.

??, do you mean Ghost 2003 comes with Symantec Norton Ghost 9.0?
I don't think so.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 27, 2005 9:33:46 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

David Winter <wintermute_101_nospam@yahoo.de> wrote in message
news:1114532285.261592.93130@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> One more question regarding True Image.

> It seems that the license agreement requires one license per machine.
> This means that I would have to purchase 2 licenses for my desktop PC
> and my notebook - which would cost me as much as a Windows license.

I just ignore stupiditys like that.

> So ... Does TI include a hardware-related activation
> mechanism or "phone home" in one way or another?

Nope.

> I do not want to imply that I plan on doing something
> illegal here, but purchasing this software twice just to
> back up a plain home system seems a bit much.

Yeah, my feeling entirely. Acronis can get stuffed.

Symantec is even worse.

> So I might do a "perfect" default configuration on my Desktop PC,
> make an image, uninstall True Image and install it on the notebook
> to do the same there. I wonder if Acronis could live with this...

Who cares ?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 27, 2005 1:19:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
news:D 4mdrs$7ui$2@news.service.uci.edu...

> I would not trust any of the 'live' backup programs. How would they know,
> when a file is being modified every milisecond, which version at what time is
> the true, valid one to backup!?!

It isnt hard to keep track of what got changed since it was
included in the image and update the image with the changes.

> You can't know for sure,

Corse you can.

> and certainly can't prove that a true, working, 100% perfect backup is being
> made of the system everytime you do this.

Corse its possible.

> Only real way is to start up from a boot disk, bypassing all writes to the HD
> in question, then run a backup program that'll image it off to another
> drive/cd off-line.

Thats just one way.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 27, 2005 4:28:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter <peterfoxghost@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:CgAbe.4891$BW6.624861@news20.bellglobal.com...

>> Ghost 2003 works fine for this. Comes
>> with the latest version of Ghost on sale today.

> ??, do you mean Ghost 2003 comes with Symantec Norton Ghost 9.0?
> I don't think so.

Fraid so
http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/featu...
April 27, 2005 4:28:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> >> Ghost 2003 works fine for this. Comes
> >> with the latest version of Ghost on sale today.
>
> > ??, do you mean Ghost 2003 comes with Symantec Norton Ghost 9.0?
> > I don't think so.
>
> Fraid so
> http://www.symantec.com/sabu/ghost/ghost_personal/featu...

OK. It does. My mistake.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 27, 2005 4:49:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:

> David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
>>I would not trust any of the 'live' backup programs. How would they know,
>>when a file is being modified every milisecond, which version at what time is
>>the true, valid one to backup!?!
>
> It isnt hard to keep track of what got changed since it was
> included in the image and update the image with the changes.

And at what point in time do you make the backup of a changing file?
1us ago? 1us later? the current us? The problem here is that the
entire system timing isn't 100% synchronized perfectly, so if you try to
time-freeze a system at, let's say 12:00am exactly, some parts of the
system can be in the middle of a write (let's say just started, hasn't
completed), some parts can be in the middle of an erase (just started,
hasn't completed), some parts have finished but that signal hasn't
gotten back to the CPU yet (data written on the HD, is done, CPU doesn't
have a clue), and some parts can be in the middle of finishing writing
the very last bit of data to a file. (just one more bit left to write to
the file system tables, then the file is complete).

Now, if you start a backup right at 12:00am, you've got the problem
where you're time stamping things at 12:00am - okay, you can backup
what's written to the HD already but the CPU doesn't yet know about
(because it's on the HD), you can't backup the files half-way done
(because that's not even a file yet in the file system entry), and even
the one file that has one more bit to go won't be backed up because the
file system entry isn't complete.

YET, if you're like any user, you'd have no clue that that OH SO
VERY IMPORTANT file that has only 1 more bit to go isn't being backed up
today because it's hasn't completed, so it's time stamp will fall after
the backup start time. Heck, you can wiggle your mouse a little harder
(get the CPU occupied a bit more) starting a backup and you could miss a
few files just like that.

What these backup programs never do is to tell the user what files
were still in-process after the backup initiated so that the user will
know what files were missed!!!!!

What's the point of making a live backup when you assume what you're
working on and saving will be backed up when it isn't? (And what's the
point of doing 100% nothing with the sytstem during a live backup? when
that's the point of a live backup? - that you can still use the system
while it's making the backup?)

You can't guarentee a 100% working, complete backup of a system will
all files you want backed up intact w/o going to an offline backup. A
live backup will always miss files in the process of being written to
disk, and thus, miss those files important to you and the OS. (Heck, I
can even be in the middle of hex editing my OS files during a backup and
result in a system that won't start up again because I haven't finished
writing the changes I made to the OS before the backup start timestamp
is made!)

---

You can always do an incremental afterwards, but as long as the
drive/system is being modified in any way with any open files, you still
can't backup those open files correctly. You can get into the case
where the full first backup and all later incremental backups on a live
system simply won't result in a working bootable system or backup of
important files you've been editing because it never backs up at a time
when the files are 'good' (ie. finished writing to disc completely).

(Imagine a big GB database of patient records. You're in the middle
of editing that database, so changes haven't all yet been made correctly
- ie. saved - to the file. It's in the middle of saving. It'll be
bypassed on the first backup. and as long as you're still modifying the
database or simply saving to disk (since it's a GB sized database),
it'll be missed time and time again until the write has been finished. -
this can easily take hours/overnight on large databases, you know...)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 28, 2005 11:16:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

J. Clarke wrote:
> In point of fact Acronis provides the BartPE plugin directly. Right
now
> they only provide it as a fix for folks who can't access their
external
> drive from the Acronis CD but that might change.

Do you mean they do not offer the BartPE plugin officially but only on
request when you tell them you're having problems? Is that the only way
to get the BartPE plugin?

Peter F.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 28, 2005 11:38:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
news:D 4oqcs$31e$1@news.service.uci.edu...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> David Chien <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote

>>> I would not trust any of the 'live' backup programs. How would they know,
>>> when a file is being modified every milisecond, which version at what time
>>> is the true, valid one to backup!?!

>> It isnt hard to keep track of what got changed since it was
>> included in the image and update the image with the changes.

> And at what point in time do you make the backup of a changing file? 1us ago?
> 1us later? the current us?

If you want the latest in the image file, you dont keep changing the file.

It isnt rocket science.

> The problem here is that the entire system timing isn't 100% synchronized
> perfectly,

It never can be with a changing file.

If you want that, you need mirroring.

> so if you try to time-freeze a system at, let's say 12:00am exactly, some
> parts of the system can be in the middle of a write (let's say just started,
> hasn't completed), some parts can be in the middle of an erase (just started,
> hasn't completed), some parts have finished but that signal hasn't gotten back
> to the CPU yet (data written on the HD, is done, CPU doesn't have a clue), and
> some parts can be in the middle of finishing writing the very last bit of data
> to a file. (just one more bit left to write to the file system tables, then
> the file is complete).

> Now, if you start a backup right at 12:00am, you've got the problem where
> you're time stamping things at 12:00am - okay, you can backup what's written
> to the HD already but the CPU doesn't yet know about (because it's on the HD),
> you can't backup the files half-way done (because that's not even a file yet
> in the file system entry), and even the one file that has one more bit to go
> won't be backed up because the file system entry isn't complete.

See above on mirroring.

> YET, if you're like any user, you'd have no clue that that OH SO VERY
> IMPORTANT file that has only 1 more bit to go isn't being backed up today
> because it's hasn't completed, so it's time stamp will fall after the backup
> start time. Heck, you can wiggle your mouse a little harder (get the CPU
> occupied a bit more) starting a backup and you could miss a few files just
> like that.

The reality with desktop systems is that there wont be much
going on at the time you do the incremental image at say 12am.

It should obviously be scheduled for when
there wont be anything much going on.

If that isnt feasible, you need a mirror, not an image for backup.

> What these backup programs never do is to tell the user what files were still
> in-process after the backup initiated so that the user will know what files
> were missed!!!!!

They arent 'missed'

> What's the point of making a live backup when you assume what you're working
> on and saving will be backed up when it isn't?

You do the image backup when it isnt changing.

> (And what's the point of doing 100% nothing with the sytstem during a live
> backup?

An incremental image backup is a lot quicker than a full image
creation at the dos level. So you may well choose to do one
before doing an install or a significant reconfig etc.

> when that's the point of a live backup? - that you can still use the system
> while it's making the backup?)

Thats just ONE point of a live backup.

The other obvious advantage is that its better than now new backup.

> You can't guarentee a 100% working, complete backup of a system will all files
> you want backed up intact w/o going to an offline backup.

Wrong. You just need to ensure that nothing
that matters is happening during the live backup.

> A live backup will always miss files in the process of being written to disk,
> and thus, miss those files important to you and the OS.

Wrong again. Modern live backup doesnt miss those files at all.

> (Heck, I can even be in the middle of hex editing my OS files during a backup
> and result in a system that won't start up again because I haven't finished
> writing the changes I made to the OS before the backup start timestamp is
> made!)

Anyone with a clue realises that its not a triffic idea
to be doing that sort of thing during a live backup.

If you want protection during that sort of thing, you need a mirror.

> ---

> You can always do an incremental afterwards, but as long as the drive/system
> is being modified in any way with any open files, you still can't backup those
> open files correctly.

Wrong again. You dont understand how modern
live backup works. It backs up open files fine.

> You can get into the case where the full first backup and all later
> incremental backups on a live system simply won't result in a working bootable
> system or backup of important files you've been editing because it never backs
> up at a time when the files are 'good' (ie. finished writing to disc
> completely).

Wrong again. See above.

> (Imagine a big GB database of patient records. You're in the middle of
> editing that database, so changes haven't all yet been made correctly - ie.
> saved - to the file. It's in the middle of saving. It'll be bypassed on the
> first backup. and as long as you're still modifying the database or simply
> saving to disk (since it's a GB sized database), it'll be missed time and time
> again until the write has been finished. - this can easily take
> hours/overnight on large databases, you know...)

Utterly mangled. And thats a situation where you need mirroring anyway.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 28, 2005 3:25:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter Frank wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> In point of fact Acronis provides the BartPE plugin directly. Right
> now
>> they only provide it as a fix for folks who can't access their
> external
>> drive from the Acronis CD but that might change.
>
> Do you mean they do not offer the BartPE plugin officially but only on
> request when you tell them you're having problems? Is that the only way
> to get the BartPE plugin?

That is my understanding.

>
> Peter F.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
April 28, 2005 5:53:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <1114444756.135883.68450@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
wintermute_101_nospam@yahoo.de says...
> I am looking for a reliable and affordable backup/imaging software that
> will allow me to backup a partition from an internal harddrive (with
> optional compression) to an external USB harddisk and restore the image
> later with minimum fuss. The machines in question have no floppy
> drives, so I probably need a software that can boot the PC from
> CD-ROM/DVD and then find and restore the image from the external USB HD
> (I assume that booting from a USB stick will not work with most PCs
> ...).
>
> I have Drive Image 2002, but as it seems it will not let me restore
> data from USB drives (or is there a way)?
>
> What do you guys suggest?
>
> Ghost? I heard quite some bitching about it.
> TrueImage?
> Something else?
>
> I need no fancy extras, just a reliable and easy-to-use imaging/restore
> solution ...
>

I use Drive Snapshot to backup "live" partitions and
BartPE CD (or UBCD4WIN) to restore from an USB external HD.
Simple, very small and very fast.

http://www.drivesnapshot.de/en/

http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

http://www.ubcd4win.com/



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