America Going into Another War!

I thought it would all be over in 11 days.

"June 3 -- German air campaign strikes on Paris begin. German soldiers occupy the French capital 11 days later. "

Maybe they couldn't read the danger signs....

There's too many of them to simply denounce them as terrorists (btw an extremist terrorist is a pleonasm).

Remember, this is France we're talking about.

You're right though. America can not constantly lead in areas. At some point, another country has to step up and show how it's done. If American continues to lead, progress will slow to a crawl.

It happens in everything. Once something is invented, someone else tries to make it better. You can only make it so good, but someone else might take that idea to the next step.

It's really hard to say what more America can do to really help those who have fallen into the lower class. In France, they can start to recoginize their minorities, etc.

I worked downtown next to my cities main public library. I saw a lot of lower class people who lives in projects always walking around the library. They complained about not having money. They complained they couldn't get an education. They begged for money, food. Said the gov't and people wouldn't help them.

I'd tell them libraries are for education. Go in there, study. Most of them, from what I could gather, were able to read, since most of them were reading the newspaper. But they don't think to walk into the library and just read and educate themselves.

So now, they talk about moving the poorer out into the suburbs to mix wit the middle and upper class.. thinking that will solve the problem. Put them around good influences. But how can you help someone who doesn't think to help themself?

You really can't do anything.

France could step up and recognize these people, but it would be touted as a major Muslim win, instead of a more Civil Rights movement in France. That's what it comes down to. These are muslim people rioting mainly.

In America, we called it Civil Rights.. for everyone. Over there, it'll be a Muslim 'win' and not for the Africans or other minorities.

What steps does one take to resolve this in France, Europe, world wide, without making it seem like a Religious thing when it should be a Civil thing?

I believe he was referring to the white man getting screwed over in this country.

Justify that please.

I second that.

Justify that please.

I second that.

I'm glad it wasn't just me that interpreted it that way.

Sounds like a bunker mentality to me for sure ... 8O

Huh? Nationalistic/ethinc strife in europe is a fact. It needs to be resolved, but with the decades of backlogged liberal political hodge-podge and open borders, there's no good way of doing it.

Where's the bunker?

This thread is gonna be good

I'm neither, but have spent a considerable part of my life in both places.

I basicaly agree with BigMac's take on the situation, hard not to, but I care more about where it comes from and what to do with it.

No I wasn't. Not sure how you got that out of my post.

Let's pick a period in history to start. Maybe after the second world war and the end of colonialism. Maybe sooner. It doesn't matter.

What do we do? We go around the world conquering all these places and then when we leave all goes to hell. We create all these artificial borders and force people to live within them.

Then when they run from their countries or just simply immigrate we complain about their national identity, lack of national identity, or inept ability to integrate into our societies. Now I'm kinda coming from my Swedish side since my American side would definitely have to consider the comparison with the Asian, European, and Mexican immigrants but that's simply too complicated for me right now.

These poor people are coming from crappy places and are hanging onto a national identity that we in many cases forced upon them. They're immigrating to countries where the people have been rather homogenious and in a very short time have had such a massive influx of diversity. We're talking about all of this happening during mediocre at best economic times and huge political and economic change, ie the EU and terrorism.

Most of these immigrants are coming from Africa, Former Soviet Republics, or the Middle East. The cultures clash tremendously.

So what happens when they arrive? They're treated like crap. They're mostly brought to the outskirts of the cities after they've gone through the terrible immigration process. They then are looked at funny, put in special schools, and not respected at all. They have turbans, burkas, scarfs, beads, beards, pearcings, languages that sound funny, different religions, different manners, and maybe they've just been through a war or had their whole family cut up with machetees.

When I lived in Sweden I was "The American". Yeah I'm Swedish but I'm culturally a mix and at the time being an American was a good thing. I got laid just for being one on several occasions. I'm going to guess that Bush fucked that one up for me but I haven't been to Sweden in a few years to find out. One of my girlfriends was "The Russian". That wasn't a good thing and my friends pretty much didn't even bother learning her name. Say what you will, but I can't just leave all my friends. That's just the way it is over there. Even my family says shitty things. I can't leave them either.

There was basically a hiearchy. At the top were white Europeans with Asians actually pretty close. Then came the Black people. Then at the bottom of the barrel were the "Turks". All muslims are thrown into the Turk pool. You don't want to be there.

How welcome do you think these people are? They get crappy jobs. My girlfriend worked in a Pakistani restaurant since that was the only job she could get and the guy running it knew he could use all the immigrants working there so he would pay them shit and then make them work cleaning up after the restaurant closed but wouldn't pay them for that. Then on top of all that you have this underlying resentment for the immigrant population since unemployment is high. Even I got screwed when I worked 12 hours a day to get work done but when it came time to get paid they wouldn't give me overtime.

I'd be on the subway or bus and the immigrants would get on and get off without a person talking to them and if they were lucky maybe they didn't get any funny looks. You then have violence where people just turn their heads. I remember there was a couple young teenagers spraypainting some crap on a wall. People just look the other way rather than lecture them. It's not like Sweden or France is like Los Angeles. You can still, and should, smack somebody upside the head when they do something like that. I'd be at bars and there would be skinheads. Nobody asked them to leave. The skinheads have marches and nobody seems to really show up to protest them.

There is, as far as I'm concerened, very little integration and a very clear tendency on the part of the Europeans to resent and disrespect their immigrant population. Now I could of course say that the immigrants aren't trying to learn the language or integrate but I'm not coming from that point of view. I'm trying to show you people that there are serious problems with the "natives" and they surely could put out more of an effort. When I sit on a bus in the USA I feel like I'm really seeing the economic divide in this country. When I'm on a bus in Europe I see the racist divide that we once had. Some places are better than others like the UK for example, but there is so much room for improvement. Especially in Sweden. It really is sad.

Times have changed. You can't keep a homogenious population anymore unless you're some sick place like North Korea. People need to grow up and realize that despite your instincts to resist change it's going to happen. In the future we'll probably all be these weird looking 8 foot grey people and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Still I'm glad you've disclosed your way of looking at it (at least one of them).

That's a bit too easy. I would say for a sensible discussion on the issue on a global scale (and immigration is a global issue) we have to consider the similarities and differences between the different regions in the world. Even if it is complicated to start with.

Of what I know about Scandinavia, I agree with your assessment and things haven't been improved in the recent years. Denmark is even worse than Sweden at the moment. However I do reject your projection to the whole of Europe of that particular attitude.

The problem in France is different from the problems in Scandinavia. In France we have an immigrant population that is speaking the language (almost) in native quality, and many of them are french literate as well. This is different in Scandinavia where there are no serious historical ties of colonising nations.

Although I do agree with your reasoning (there are issues with the natives), you must not underestimate the impact of a very basic attitude of the immigrant. An immigrant must have the intention of blending in, to become a valued member of society in their new home. That does not mean denying your background or culture, but a drive to be successful in your new surroundings. People coming to the USA, share the american dream. That is the awesome power of that concept. It is actually irrelevant of what they're actually dreaming about, the essence is, that it is the american dream, and I do not mean that in a nationalistic way, but it is a sharing of identity, to pursue this dream. This is missing in Europe. They do not come here to pursue their dreams here. They come to get their fortune and return home once they have it (which is essentially different from supporting family that lives abroad). This might still be to our mutual benefit as long as we need cheap labor, but when this is no longer the case, then we're in deep shit, and things are shifting towards this direction.

In a sense this is very ironic, where we once went to "the colonies" to earn a fortune and return home, the modern "European" immigrants do the same, so I'm not blaming them at all. The big difference is though that we were top dog when we got there, whereas they're still at the bottom so to speak, even though they're now coming over to Europe.

One possible answer may lie with the evolution of modern capitalist states and how their industrial relations are managed. We are talking about generational, ingrained, low socio-economics applying to minorities within capitalist states. The core issues revolve around unemployment, lack of education, religious idealism/fanaticism, lack of opportunity in general.

If a nation-state is to counter these issues humanely then IR laws must be at the cutting edge so as to offer the unemployed not only a job but skills training that will allow these individuals career growth, and by default, personal growth too. Liberals argue that you dehumanise the unemployed with IR change because the capitalist system exploitts those with no skills etc. Its true and in fact its an idea we have to get used to:- if you have no skills or minimal education then until you do gain either or both then your labour is worth minimum wage only.

But the evolution will lie in the State offering compulsive assistance whereby education or skills training in conjunction with work is compulsory to receive any kind of benefits. Correctly set-up - and God knows France has the bureaucracy to handle this - you could have a managed citizen development system in place that occupies the time of these would-be rioters. I dont know about you, but a full day of work takes the steam right out of me and I certainly dont feel like getting out there and blowing shite up.

O M G 8O

Is that pumpkin what I think it is?

I think it's one of those new hybrid as[b][/b]s-pumpkins ... 8O

Is that what they mean by being a Big American Butt?

Crikeys, thats an outrageous behind if it is. Sweetheart, lay off the Burger King and take up fruit juices because that is a huge posterior!

Sarcasm and a joke. No one really picked up on that one..

Basically I meant that I don't really minorities in America getting screwed over like they do in other countries. The reason they're coming here is because they getting an opportunity.

I have a load of colleges in my area. University of Toledo has one of the top ranked programs, and the most, foreign students. People in my city can't get into the college, but they're talking on insane amounts of foreigners.

Opportunity is here for them, not in their own country.

Do I see this as a bad thing for white males? No. I see it more as evening of things and leveling the playing field for minorities who live in America, not just those coming here.

Scandinavia might be different but it's still taking in these immigrants since the borders are so lax and the policies are so socialist. Under the right circumstance bringing in refugees and immigrants and giving them a second chance and hope for a brighter future is a good thing.

All the rich countries are taking huge amounts of immigrants. When my mother was 24 she saw her first black person. Imagine that! Today almost 25% of the population is an immigrant and most of this has happened in my generation. Very huge changes in way too short a time.

You do not know sh[i][/i]it about France, so don't pretend that you do.

I'm not a fan of France foreign policies or their opinion on european funding but I do know something about that country and I certainly know enough to know that you're clueless. I don't particularly blame you for that, but you should not pretend to know more than you do.

I'm just going off the information about their gov't. They have no representation of their minorities.
After all, this evolved to this state from the discontent of the poor people of France who aren't being represented where.. what was it, 5 million or so are?

Now, instead of coming in and telling me I don't know shit about it, I'm posting here from what I understand, read and looked up. You on the other hand come in telling me I don't know shit.. yet you yourself really aren't saying anything except 'it's the nationals' doing it.

So far, you haven't made your claim that you know what's going on. Even the De Ville or whatever his name is said it's time for revolution and time for France to start looking at their minorities.. he said that 2 days ago I think, maybe yesterday.

I'm going with what information in out there, what the French gov't says, does, and how it's represented. It's a democracy that's not fairly representative of it's people.. not good for a democracy.

That much I do know. Do I know who is on the street rioting? No. But I do know what their message is.

Where did you get your information on how it's represented? Because you are wrong. Or are you patting the US of A on the back because you've had Powell as a secretary of state and now, and Rice? Give me a break there. What would be more comparable if there were some significant hispanics in Bush's government. Maybe there are (please name them if so), but I'm not familiar with them.

I disagree, you don't know, unless you keep it at the level of "they're angry because they've less money/opportunity than others" which is oversimplifying the issue. Btw, you also oversimplified my contribution to the discussion so if you don't actually read what I type, then it's kind of hard to share views, don't you think? Read it again and see if you can get more out of it.

I'm not out to prove you're ignorant here, I don't even think you are. You do have a serious tendency of oversimplifying issues, with the possible endresult that you're actually missing some core elements underlying the conflict. That, and I get rather annoyed at your super power suppositions as were it to rub off on you or your opinions in some way, which it doesn't. Quite possible that I'm (over)sensitive to that, living in a very small country.

What's an asshat?

How do you figure? I'm not saying it is or isn't, since I'm not sure, but why did you say that?