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Hardware failure at boot up?

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 18, 2005 5:02:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

My Dell laptop has suddenly developed a problem. About 7 or 8 seconds
after switching the power on, a message comes up "NTLDR missing - press
CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue". Pressing them makes the machine start again
and, 7 seconds later, the error message comes up again.

Dell hardware say it's a software problem and Dell software say it's
hardware. Anyone have any ideas I might explore?

More about : hardware failure boot

Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 18, 2005 5:24:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Hi,

Turn off the computer. Turn it back on and insert the windows xp
recovery cd.

It will give you two options a) install windows xp. b) repair windows
xp, press R.

Select the second option. Hit R and it will give you the Recovery
Console prompt.
The it will prompt for the password. just hit enter key on the KB.

Type copy c:\i386\ntldr c:\
Type copy c:\i386\ntdetect.com c:\
Close the recovery console prompt window by typing exit and quit from
Recovery screen. The computer will now restart and it should come up
just fine.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 19, 2005 3:01:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously theedwardses@ntlworld.com wrote:
> My Dell laptop has suddenly developed a problem. About 7 or 8 seconds
> after switching the power on, a message comes up "NTLDR missing - press
> CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue". Pressing them makes the machine start again
> and, 7 seconds later, the error message comes up again.

> Dell hardware say it's a software problem and Dell software say it's
> hardware. Anyone have any ideas I might explore?

It is software. The bootsector is loaded, which means the
disk-subsystem works. Seems Dell software support is incompetent,
lazy or both.

Arno
Related resources
May 19, 2005 6:11:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On 19 May 2005 11:01:26 GMT, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Previously theedwardses@ntlworld.com wrote:
>> My Dell laptop has suddenly developed a problem. About 7 or 8 seconds
>> after switching the power on, a message comes up "NTLDR missing - press
>> CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue". Pressing them makes the machine start again
>> and, 7 seconds later, the error message comes up again.
>
>> Dell hardware say it's a software problem and Dell software say it's
>> hardware. Anyone have any ideas I might explore?
>
>It is software. The bootsector is loaded, which means the
>disk-subsystem works. Seems Dell software support is incompetent,
>lazy or both.

Windows has an "In-Place Upgrade" which fixes problems like that. Or
you can use the Recovery Console and try to rebuild the MBR. But you
need to know what you are doing.

You can look up all this in the MS Knowledge Base.


--

Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html

A liberal is a person who is so open minded
that their brains have fallen out.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 19, 2005 6:11:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Bob" <spam@spamcop.com> wrote in message
news:428c9e21.56466406@news-server.houston.rr.com...
> On 19 May 2005 11:01:26 GMT, Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> >Previously theedwardses@ntlworld.com wrote:
> >> My Dell laptop has suddenly developed a problem. About 7 or 8 seconds
> >> after switching the power on, a message comes up "NTLDR missing - press
> >> CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue". Pressing them makes the machine start again
> >> and, 7 seconds later, the error message comes up again.
> >
> >It is software. The bootsector is loaded, which means the
> >disk-subsystem works. Seems Dell software support is incompetent,
> >lazy or both.
>
> Windows has an "In-Place Upgrade" which fixes problems like that. Or
> you can use the Recovery Console and try to rebuild the MBR. But you
> need to know what you are doing.
>
You do not know. You are clueless. Do you even know what MBR is?

Boob's advice will make things worse if the problem is disk corruption.

> You can look up all this in the MS Knowledge Base.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 19, 2005 8:05:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

sensumit@gmail.com wrote:

> Turn off the computer. Turn it back on and insert the windows xp
> recovery cd.
>
> It will give you two options a) install windows xp. b) repair windows
> xp, press R.
>
> Select the second option. Hit R and it will give you the Recovery
> Console prompt.
> The it will prompt for the password. just hit enter key on the KB.
>
> Type copy c:\i386\ntldr c:\
> Type copy c:\i386\ntdetect.com c:\
> Close the recovery console prompt window by typing exit and quit from
> Recovery screen. The computer will now restart and it should come up
> just fine.

Dangerous advice!

The most common reason for the "NTLDR missing" error message to show is
incorrect drive settings in the CMOS. Attempting to write to the drive in such
condition will cause disastrous results by corrupting the file system critical
areas!

Regards, Zvi
--
NetZ Computing Ltd. ISRAEL www.invircible.com www.ivi.co.il (Hebrew)
InVircible Virus Defense Solutions, ResQ and Data Recovery Utilities
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 19, 2005 8:43:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

theedwardses@ntlworld.com wrote:

> My Dell laptop has suddenly developed a problem. About 7 or 8 seconds
> after switching the power on, a message comes up "NTLDR missing - press
> CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue". Pressing them makes the machine start again
> and, 7 seconds later, the error message comes up again.
>
> Dell hardware say it's a software problem and Dell software say it's
> hardware. Anyone have any ideas I might explore?

They could be both correct. The message "NTLDR missing" is issued by the boot
partition boot sector, when failing to find NTLDR.

This could be caused by genuine deletion of the file. But a more common reason
could be incorrect settings of the hard drive in the CMOS.

To test whether this is the case, get a copy of NTFS4DOS from
http://www.datapol-technologies.com/dpe/fts.php?criteri... , make with an
NTFS boot floppy from DOS (free for private use) and boot the laptop from the
floppy made.

Explore the C: drive from the A: prompt / command line to see if your
directories and files are accessible. You can even run CHKDSK from the floppy
but pay attention to NOT use the /F parameter (fix) before having assessed the
drive!

The showing of a garbled DIR C: may mean that the drive setting in the CMOS is
incorrect, or in the worse case, that the file system is corrupted. To test
for the presence of the start files (on a healthy file system) issue the command
DIR C:\NT* /A If the files exists then the command should return NTLDR and
NTDETECT.COM.

Only if the file system of C: is OK and one of the two files is missing, then
you may copy them safely from the Windows setup CD, in repair console mode.

Regards, Zvi
--
NetZ Computing Ltd. ISRAEL www.invircible.com www.ivi.co.il (Hebrew)
InVircible Virus Defense Solutions, ResQ and Data Recovery Utilities
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 21, 2005 3:29:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I cannot keep count of how many times some of my clients would call me
and complain about how their PCs worked fine and suddenly they started
getting the same message you get.

You should first check to see if there is a floppy disk in your floppy
drive and remove it before booting the PC. All systems set to use the
floppy drive as first boot device and have floopy boot seek turned on
in BIOS will give you that message if the inserted floopy is not a boot
floppy.

Remove the floppy from your drive and see what happens - that is if you
have not called in the technician or restored the system already.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 21, 2005 6:44:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

There is a very simple way to find out for yourself.

Place a non-bootable floppy in your drive after setting your PC to boot
first from floppy and tell me what you see. Why else are they going to
tell you that you must press CTRL+ALT+DEL. That command reboots the
system, right? And why would they want you to reboot?

Obviously the PC is not finding the boot device which might very well
be that a floppy is in the drive or the hard drive needs
reconfiguration or it crashed.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 21, 2005 8:00:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Nonsense. It IS booting from the disk.

The "press CTRL+ALT+DEL" text only exists in the Win 2K/XP boot sector.

Either ntldr is missing, or the volume is corrupt. Run chkdsk from recovery
console.

"modiftek" <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116711868.183058.201160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> There is a very simple way to find out for yourself.
>
> Place a non-bootable floppy in your drive after setting your PC to boot
> first from floppy and tell me what you see. Why else are they going to
> tell you that you must press CTRL+ALT+DEL. That command reboots the
> system, right? And why would they want you to reboot?
>
> Obviously the PC is not finding the boot device which might very well
> be that a floppy is in the drive or the hard drive needs
> reconfiguration or it crashed.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 22, 2005 2:20:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Eric Gisin:

Look, I don't come on here just because I want to make myself foolish
or dispute what methods other people apply in solving their computer
problems. If you know this industry well you will recognize that there
is no one method used in solving problems relating to computer hardware
/ software issues, and that I learned from studying / fixing computer
for over a decade and a half.

In saying that, I am going to allow you time to do some research or ask
any good neighborhood technician what is the first thing they look at
when faced with this error and listen to what they tell you.

The majority of the time that error points to a floppy in the FDD which
the computer tries to boot from but, because the files are corrupt or
the NTLDR is not present on the floppy the system returns that error.

Most good technicians look at the FDD first before tearing apart the
computer and start examining IDE cables, deleting partitions,
reformatting hard drives and running Chkdsk or start recovery console
to solve this problem.

If you read what I wrote carefully you will notice that I stated that I
hoped the user did not go out and get a technician or had already
applied the hard drive utility to bring the system back to order before
first checking the FDD. Some people lose data and precious time over
this situation when most times fixing the problem requires the simple
removal of a floppy disk before booting the PC.

Anyway, just not to make this a lecture and on realizing some of us are
set in our ways and beliefs, I am not going to attempt to educate you.
However, follow the link and read the information on there and tell me
if those people on there are telling you nonsense as well.

http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 22, 2005 10:48:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

modiftek <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116700181.668962.292580@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>> My Dell laptop has suddenly developed a problem. About 7 or 8 seconds
>> after switching the power on, a message comes up "NTLDR missing - press
>> CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue". Pressing them makes the machine start again
>> and, 7 seconds later, the error message comes up again.

>> Dell hardware say it's a software problem and Dell software
>> say it's hardware. Anyone have any ideas I might explore?

> I cannot keep count of how many times some of my clients
> would call me and complain about how their PCs worked fine
> and suddenly they started getting the same message you get.

Bet they dont usually get that particular message.

> You should first check to see if there is a floppy disk in your floppy
> drive and remove it before booting the PC. All systems set to use the
> floppy drive as first boot device and have floopy boot seek turned on
> in BIOS will give you that message if the inserted floopy is not a boot
> floppy.

You wont normally get that particular message in that situation.

> Remove the floppy from your drive and see what happens - that is
> if you have not called in the technician or restored the system already.

He said he has already asked Dell.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 22, 2005 1:16:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

modiftek <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116711868.183058.201160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> There is a very simple way to find out for yourself.

Dont need to, I've done it plenty of times by accident.

> Place a non-bootable floppy in your drive after setting
> your PC to boot first from floppy and tell me what you see.

Non System Disk usually, depending
on how the floppy has been created.

> Why else are they going to tell you
> that you must press CTRL+ALT+DEL.
> That command reboots the system, right?
> And why would they want you to reboot?

Separate issue entirely to whether you normally see
the "NTLDR missing - press CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue".
message when the system is setup to try booting the
floppy first and a non bootable floppy is in the floppy drive.

> Obviously the PC is not finding the boot device

Duh, but you dont necessarily get a message that complains
"NTLDR missing", essentially because the MBR on the floppy
doesnt normally attempt to boot an OS in the NT/2K/XP
family with a non bootable floppy.

> which might very well be that a floppy is in the drive
> or the hard drive needs reconfiguration or it crashed.

Separate issue entirely to whether you normally see
the "NTLDR missing - press CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue".
message when the system is setup to try booting the
floppy first and a non bootable floppy is in the floppy drive.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 22, 2005 2:27:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

*****************************************************************************************
The page provides good information, except for the following phrase:

"Many times this error is caused when the computer is attempting to
boot from a
non-bootable floppy disk or CD-ROM." It's plain wrong, and if you had
read
previous posts in the thread before posting yours, then you would have
known
why.

Regards, Zvi
*****************************************************************************************

It is a very bad thing when some of you on here argue and portray
yourselves as the sole authority on issues, especially as in your case,
attempting to critique what others say when Microsoft itself says that
the NTLDR message does occur for reasons both that site and I
explained.

As I stated before, there is no one way to approach the fixing of
hardware / software issues in this industry and I won't make myself a
dummy by telling people on here that I have the sole remedy for their
problems, neither would I plain knock down someone else's theory or
know how. To be honest, I come on here with and open mind because I
know there are people here that are capable of teaching / sharing
valuable information and if I refrain from making myself a Doubting
Thomas I might learn a thing or two.

Since joining this discussion I have recreated the NTLDR error message
at will and in exactly the way Microsoft says it can occur. I have
learned through the years that if you are able to recreate a problem,
you will eventually know how to fix it.

In saying that, read below and go take this up with Microsoft if you
feel that they put out misinformation on their website. And no, I
won't include the link because some of us know it all already and so,
I won't waste my time.

SYMPTOMS
you get an error that NTLDR is not found or missing during bootup.


CAUSE
This issue may occur if your start device (such as a floppy disk drive,
hard disk drive, or CD-ROM drive) does not contain boot files.


Back to the top

RESOLUTION
Remove the non-system disk from your boot device. For example, remove
the non-system disk from the floppy drive or the CD-ROM drive.

Change your computer's boot sequence. Make sure that your computer's
first boot sequence is the CD-ROM Drive.

1.Insert the Windows XP CD-ROM into the CD-ROM drive, and then restart
the computer.

Click to select any options that are required to start the computer
from the CD-ROM drive if you are prompted.

2.When the "Welcome to Setup" screen appears, press R to start the
Recovery Console.

3.If you have a dual-boot or multiple-boot computer, select the
installation that you must access from the Recovery Console.

4.When you are prompted, type the Administrator password. If the
administrator password is blank, just press ENTER.

5.Enter in the following commands

COPY X:i386NTLDR C:
COPY X:i386NTDETECT.COM C:
[where X=CD ROM Drive]
Take out the CD ROM and type exit
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 22, 2005 3:45:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"modiftek" <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote:

> Eric Gisin:
>
> Look, I don't come on here just because I want to make myself foolish
> or dispute what methods other people apply in solving their computer
> problems. If you know this industry well you will recognize that there
> is no one method used in solving problems relating to computer hardware
> / software issues, and that I learned from studying / fixing computer
> for over a decade and a half.

[snip]

> The majority of the time that error points to a floppy in the FDD which
> the computer tries to boot from but, because the files are corrupt or
> the NTLDR is not present on the floppy the system returns that error.

Plain wrong. The "NTLDR missing" error message is issued by the boot sector of
the *hard drive* boot partition when failing to load NTLDR for whatever reason.
The message is part of the data that can be found in the boot sector of
partitions that boot NT, W2K or XP. You won't normally find it in floppies'
boot sectors, only in those that were created as an emergency boot disk during
the OS installation, and as we know, very few users possess such disk.

A floppy left in the A: drive will normally show the legacy message "Invalid
system disk" and/or "replace the disk, and then press any key". Besides the
"system" does NOT issue the "NTLDR missing" message, because the system won't
even start to load when the NT loader is missing. The only message in regards
to NTLDR which is issued by NTLDR itself is "NTLDR is corrupt".

[snip]

> However, follow the link and read the information on there and tell me
> if those people on there are telling you nonsense as well.
>
> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm

The page provides good information, except for the following phrase:

"Many times this error is caused when the computer is attempting to boot from a
non-bootable floppy disk or CD-ROM." It's plain wrong, and if you had read
previous posts in the thread before posting yours, then you would have known
why.

Regards, Zvi
--
NetZ Computing Ltd. ISRAEL www.invircible.com www.ivi.co.il (Hebrew)
InVircible Virus Defense Solutions, ResQ and Data Recovery Utilities
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 22, 2005 8:16:06 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot and did check the floppy.

In that case, my advice is correct, yours is not. The MBR and NT boot sector
were loaded, so the hardware is OK.

"modiftek" <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116739227.460007.299660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Eric Gisin:
>
> Look, I don't come on here just because I want to make myself foolish
> or dispute what methods other people apply in solving their computer
> problems. If you know this industry well you will recognize that there
> is no one method used in solving problems relating to computer hardware
> / software issues, and that I learned from studying / fixing computer
> for over a decade and a half.
>
[drivel snipped]

Here is your post I was replying to, which you conveniently forget to
include:

"There is a very simple way to find out for yourself.

Place a non-bootable floppy in your drive after setting your PC to boot
first from floppy and tell me what you see. Why else are they going to
tell you that you must press CTRL+ALT+DEL. That command reboots the
system, right? And why would they want you to reboot?

Obviously the PC is not finding the boot device which might very well
be that a floppy is in the drive or the hard drive needs
reconfiguration or it crashed."
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 2:05:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"modiftek" <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message news:1116739227.460007.299660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> Eric Gisin:
>
> Look, I don't come on here just because I want to make myself foolish

Yet that is what you do here each and every time, without fail.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 4:24:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote in news:D 6r4t901le7
@enews1.newsguy.com:

> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...

Reasonable, no evidence thus far.

> ...and did check the floppy.

An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later. Even an
expert such as yourself could make such a simple mistake, so why not
check out the bleedin' obvious possibilities early?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 9:01:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

modiftek <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116782845.132938.210380@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Zvi Netiv <support@replace_with_domain.com> wrote

>> The page provides good information, except for the following phrase:

>> "Many times this error is caused when the computer is attempting
>> to boot from a non-bootable floppy disk or CD-ROM." It's plain
>> wrong, and if you had read previous posts in the thread before
>> posting yours, then you would have known why.

> It is a very bad thing when some of you on here argue
> and portray yourselves as the sole authority on issues,

You're lying now. No one did that.

And its completely trivial for anyone with a clue to PROVE
that a non bootable floppy DOES NOT PRODUCE THAT
NTLDR MISSING MESSAGE WHEN YOU TRY TO BOOT IT.

> especially as in your case, attempting to critique what others
> say when Microsoft itself says that the NTLDR message does
> occur for reasons both that site and I explained.

Microsoft doesnt actually say what you said.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;555304&sd=rss&spid=3223
actually says

This issue may occur if your start device (such as a floppy disk drive,
hard disk drive, or CD-ROM drive) does not contain boot files.

Thats talking about a different situation to just any old non bootable floppy,
its talking about a 2K emergency boot floppy that has lost its NTLDR file.

> As I stated before, there is no one way to approach
> the fixing of hardware / software issues in this industry

There is with as specific an error message as that one.

> and I won't make myself a dummy by telling people
> on here that I have the sole remedy for their problems,

You did however make a spectacular fool of yourself when
you flaunted the fact that you dont understand the basics
of what can produce that specific error message.

And you're so stupid that you cant manage to check
for yourself that what you are being told now is correct.

> neither would I plain knock down someone else's theory or know how.

More fool you with as specific a fault condition as that particular one
where its completely trivial to prove that normal non boot floppys
DO NOT PRODUCE THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.

> To be honest, I come on here with and open mind because
> I know there are people here that are capable of teaching /
> sharing valuable information and if I refrain from making
> myself a Doubting Thomas I might learn a thing or two.

You clearly dont have enough of a clue to actually think about
what you have been told and check for yourself what happens
error message wise when you attempt to boot a normal non
bootable floppy. YOU DONT GET THAT ERROR MESSAGE.
YOU GET A QUITE DIFFERENT ONE.

> Since joining this discussion I have recreated the NTLDR error
> message at will and in exactly the way Microsoft says it can occur.

Pity that is nothing like the situation you made such a spectacular
fool of yourself about when you proclaimed that any normal non
bootable floppy can produce that specific error message. It cant.

> I have learned through the years that if you are able to
> recreate a problem, you will eventually know how to fix it.

You cant even manage the basics of actually recreating the particular
scenario being discussed, A NORMAL NON BOOTABLE FLOPPY.

> In saying that, read below and go take this up with Microsoft
> if you feel that they put out misinformation on their website.

It isnt saying anything like your original pig ignorant claim.

> And no, I won't include the link because some of us
> know it all already and so, I won't waste my time.

Couldnt even bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag
even if its pathetic excuse for a 'life' depended on it.

Anyone with a clue can find the url just by
doing a phrase search in google, stupid.

> SYMPTOMS
> you get an error that NTLDR is not found or missing during bootup.

> CAUSE
> This issue may occur if your start device (such as a floppy disk drive,
> hard disk drive, or CD-ROM drive) does not contain boot files.

Nothing like your original claim about a normal non bootable floppy.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 9:01:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

modiftek <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1116739227.460007.299660@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Eric Gisin

> Look, I don't come on here just because I want to make myself foolish

That happens anyway, regardless of your intentions on that.

> or dispute what methods other people
> apply in solving their computer problems.

Some of us use rigorous engineering on the basics like
which MBRs produce which specific error messages.

Obviously thats completely beyond the likes of you.

> If you know this industry well you will recognize
> that there is no one method used in solving problems
> relating to computer hardware / software issues,

There is with that specific question being discussed,
just which MBRs produce which specific error messages.

Completely trivial for anyone with even
half a clue to work that simple stuff out.

> and that I learned from studying / fixing
> computer for over a decade and a half.

But clearly dont have enough viable between your
ears to be able to manage VERY basic stuff like
which MBRs produce which specific error messages.

> In saying that, I am going to allow you time to do some research
> or ask any good neighborhood technician what is the first thing they
> look at when faced with this error and listen to what they tell you.

Dont need to do either thanks. Neither does Gisin.

> The majority of the time that error points to a floppy in the FDD which
> the computer tries to boot from but, because the files are corrupt or
> the NTLDR is not present on the floppy the system returns that error.

Wrong. The MBR on a floppy does NOT produce that
PARTICULAR error message when you attempt to boot a non
bootable floppy. Specificially it does NOT whine about NTLDR.

> Most good technicians look at the FDD first

Not when the error message mentions NTLDR. Pointless in that case.

BECAUSE THE FLOPPY MBR DOESNT PRODUCE THAT ERROR MESSAGE.

> before tearing apart the computer and start examining IDE
> cables, deleting partitions, reformatting hard drives and running
> Chkdsk or start recovery console to solve this problem.

> If you read what I wrote carefully you will notice that
> I stated that I hoped the user did not go out and get a
> technician or had already applied the hard drive utility to
> bring the system back to order before first checking the FDD.

And that was a stupid thing to suggest WHEN THE
ERROR MESSAGE MENTIONS A MISSING NTLDR.

YOU ACTUALLY GET A DIFFERENT ERROR MESSAGE
IF YOU ATTEMPT TO BOOT A NON BOOTABLE FLOPPY.

> Some people lose data and precious time over this situation
> when most times fixing the problem requires the simple
> removal of a floppy disk before booting the PC.

NOT WHEN THE ERROR MESSAGE MENTIONS A MISSING NTLDR.

YOU ACTUALLY GET A DIFFERENT ERROR MESSAGE
IF YOU ATTEMPT TO BOOT A NON BOOTABLE FLOPPY.

> Anyway, just not to make this a lecture and on realizing some of us are
> set in our ways and beliefs, I am not going to attempt to educate you.

No chance of that, you dont have a clue about the basics.

> However, follow the link and read the information on there and
> tell me if those people on there are telling you nonsense as well.

Yep, its complete pig ignorant drivel with the floppy drive or cdrom drive.

> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 9:11:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Just to be completely clear, its very unlikely indeed
that the original poster managed to have a damaged
2K emergency boot floppy in the floppy drive

So your original 'suggestion' on what can produce that
SPECIFIC ERROR MESSAGE is in fact WAY down the
list of real possibilitys, well after the much more likely
possibility of hard drive corruption or drive type change etc.

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3fc315F6lhn7U1@individual.net...
>
> modiftek <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1116782845.132938.210380@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Zvi Netiv <support@replace_with_domain.com> wrote
>
>>> The page provides good information, except for the following phrase:
>
>>> "Many times this error is caused when the computer is attempting
>>> to boot from a non-bootable floppy disk or CD-ROM." It's plain
>>> wrong, and if you had read previous posts in the thread before
>>> posting yours, then you would have known why.
>
>> It is a very bad thing when some of you on here argue
>> and portray yourselves as the sole authority on issues,
>
> You're lying now. No one did that.
>
> And its completely trivial for anyone with a clue to PROVE
> that a non bootable floppy DOES NOT PRODUCE THAT
> NTLDR MISSING MESSAGE WHEN YOU TRY TO BOOT IT.
>
>> especially as in your case, attempting to critique what others
>> say when Microsoft itself says that the NTLDR message does
>> occur for reasons both that site and I explained.
>
> Microsoft doesnt actually say what you said.
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;555304&sd=rss&spid=3223
> actually says
>
> This issue may occur if your start device (such as a floppy disk drive,
> hard disk drive, or CD-ROM drive) does not contain boot files.
>
> Thats talking about a different situation to just any old non bootable floppy,
> its talking about a 2K emergency boot floppy that has lost its NTLDR file.
>
>> As I stated before, there is no one way to approach
>> the fixing of hardware / software issues in this industry
>
> There is with as specific an error message as that one.
>
>> and I won't make myself a dummy by telling people
>> on here that I have the sole remedy for their problems,
>
> You did however make a spectacular fool of yourself when
> you flaunted the fact that you dont understand the basics
> of what can produce that specific error message.
>
> And you're so stupid that you cant manage to check
> for yourself that what you are being told now is correct.
>
>> neither would I plain knock down someone else's theory or know how.
>
> More fool you with as specific a fault condition as that particular one
> where its completely trivial to prove that normal non boot floppys
> DO NOT PRODUCE THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
>
>> To be honest, I come on here with and open mind because
>> I know there are people here that are capable of teaching /
>> sharing valuable information and if I refrain from making
>> myself a Doubting Thomas I might learn a thing or two.
>
> You clearly dont have enough of a clue to actually think about
> what you have been told and check for yourself what happens
> error message wise when you attempt to boot a normal non
> bootable floppy. YOU DONT GET THAT ERROR MESSAGE.
> YOU GET A QUITE DIFFERENT ONE.
>
>> Since joining this discussion I have recreated the NTLDR error
>> message at will and in exactly the way Microsoft says it can occur.
>
> Pity that is nothing like the situation you made such a spectacular
> fool of yourself about when you proclaimed that any normal non
> bootable floppy can produce that specific error message. It cant.
>
>> I have learned through the years that if you are able to
>> recreate a problem, you will eventually know how to fix it.
>
> You cant even manage the basics of actually recreating the particular
> scenario being discussed, A NORMAL NON BOOTABLE FLOPPY.
>
>> In saying that, read below and go take this up with Microsoft
>> if you feel that they put out misinformation on their website.
>
> It isnt saying anything like your original pig ignorant claim.
>
>> And no, I won't include the link because some of us
>> know it all already and so, I won't waste my time.
>
> Couldnt even bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag
> even if its pathetic excuse for a 'life' depended on it.
>
> Anyone with a clue can find the url just by
> doing a phrase search in google, stupid.
>
>> SYMPTOMS
>> you get an error that NTLDR is not found or missing during bootup.
>
>> CAUSE
>> This issue may occur if your start device (such as a floppy disk drive,
>> hard disk drive, or CD-ROM drive) does not contain boot files.
>
> Nothing like your original claim about a normal non bootable floppy.
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 3:23:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
news:Xns965FE2E3434Akxxx@62.253.162.201...
> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote

>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
>> ...and did check the floppy.

> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple mistake,
> so why not check out the bleedin' obvious possibilities early?

Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 3:23:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3fcpcuF75rn8U1
@individual.net:

>
> Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
> news:Xns965FE2E3434Akxxx@62.253.162.201...
>> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
>>> ...and did check the floppy.
>
>> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
>> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
mistake,
>> so why not check out the bleedin' obvious possibilities early?
>
> Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
> WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.

Can't be that unlikely: I've seen it a couple of times, as have a
few others apparently e.g.:
http://computer-vet.com/weblog/2004/11/08/ntldr_is_miss...
http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
http://www.tinyempire.com/shortnotes/files/ntldr_missin...
http://www.anetforums.com/posts.aspx?ThreadIndex=10606
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6287-0.html?forumID=47...
173998
http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-593072.php
and so on...

Same old clueless RodShit.
May 23, 2005 3:23:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> Can't be that unlikely: I've seen it a couple of times, as have a
> few others apparently e.g.:
> http://computer-vet.com/weblog/2004/11/08/ntldr_is_miss...
> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
> http://www.tinyempire.com/shortnotes/files/ntldr_missin...
> http://www.anetforums.com/posts.aspx?ThreadIndex=10606
> http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6287-0.html?forumID=47...
> 173998
> http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-593072.php
> and so on...
>
> Same old clueless RodShit.

I'm sure you are wrong.
OP reported that he has seen:
"NTLDR missing - press
CTRL-ALT-DEL to continue"

Leaving floppy would produce:
"NTLDR is missing
Press any key to restart"

There were rare situations where OP's message was
observed (with 'is' added):
http://extremetechsupport.org/forum/showthread.phtml?t=...

Boot partition lost an "active" flag?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 3:23:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Kinell" <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
news:Xns965F1E4BD5B8Akxxx@62.253.162.203...
> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3fcpcuF75rn8U1
> @individual.net:
>
> >
> > Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
> > news:Xns965FE2E3434Akxxx@62.253.162.201...
> >> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote
> >
> >>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
> >>> ...and did check the floppy.
> >
> >> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
> >> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
> mistake,
> >> so why not check out the bleedin' obvious possibilities early?
> >
> > Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
> > WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
>
> Can't be that unlikely: I've seen it a couple of times, as have a
> few others apparently e.g.:
>
Nope, the FAT boot sector on floppies does NOT say "ctrl-alt-del to reboot",
it is "press any key to reboot".
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 3:23:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:3fctr6F73jj5U1@individual.net:

>
> Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
> news:Xns965F1E4BD5B8Akxxx@62.253.162.203...
>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>>> Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote
>>>> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
>>>>> ...and did check the floppy.
>
>>>> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
>>>> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
>>>> mistake, so why not check out the bleedin' obvious
>>>> possibilities early?
>
>>> Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
>>> WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
>
>> Can't be that unlikely:
>
> Corse it is. You have to have a floppy in the drive accidentally
> and it has to be a damaged 2K emergency floppy with no
> NTLDR on it. That isnt likely to be seen at all, way down
> the list after some stuffup with the hard drive.
>
>> I've seen it a couple of times, as have a few others apparently
>> e.g.:
>> http://computer-vet.com/weblog/2004/11/08/ntldr_is_miss...
>> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
>> http://www.tinyempire.com/shortnotes/files/ntldr_missin...
>> http://www.anetforums.com/posts.aspx?ThreadIndex=10606
>> http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6287-0.html?forumID=47...
>> = 173998
>> http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-593072.php
>> and so on...
>
IMO, and that of many others, checking for a floppy in the drive is
a reasonable suggestion in these circumstances.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 3:23:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:D 6rhhs02pqj@enews4.newsguy.com:

> "Kinell" <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
> news:Xns965F1E4BD5B8Akxxx@62.253.162.203...
>> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3fcpcuF75rn8U1
>> @individual.net:
>>
>> >
>> > Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns965FE2E3434Akxxx@62.253.162.201...
>> >> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote
>> >
>> >>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
>> >>> ...and did check the floppy.
>> >
>> >> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
>> >> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
>> mistake,
>> >> so why not check out the bleedin' obvious possibilities
>> >> early?
>> >
>> > Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
>> > WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
>>
>> Can't be that unlikely: I've seen it a couple of times, as have
>> a few others apparently e.g.:
>>
> Nope, the FAT boot sector on floppies does NOT say "ctrl-alt-del
> to reboot", it is "press any key to reboot".
>
>

Accepted. But I'd still want to check the bleedin' obvious, in case
the blithering idiot factor applied e.g. misreporting symptoms.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 5:27:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"modiftek" <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote:

> It is a very bad thing when some of you on here argue and portray
> yourselves as the sole authority on issues, especially as in your case,

Nothing of the sort.

> attempting to critique what others say when Microsoft itself says that
> the NTLDR message does occur for reasons both that site and I
> explained.

Please get your facts straight before posting such nonsense. The site you
quoted isn't Microsoft's, and FWIW, Microsoft says exactly the same as did Eric,
Rod, and myself, about the possible causes of the "NTLDR missing" message.

Read
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;318728&Product=win2000
and see for yourself.

[snip]
> Since joining this discussion I have recreated the NTLDR error message
> at will and in exactly the way Microsoft says it can occur. [...]

The Microsoft page doesn't mention the floppy nonsense, and you didn't recreate
the condition as you claim. If you wished to convince the readers on that then
you may have provided a detailed protocol to let them try for themselves.

Regards, Zvi
--
NetZ Computing Ltd. ISRAEL www.invircible.com www.ivi.co.il (Hebrew)
InVircible Virus Defense Solutions, ResQ and Data Recovery Utilities
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 6:48:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote:

> IMO, and that of many others, checking for a floppy in the drive is
> a reasonable suggestion in these circumstances.

No, it isn't a reasonable suggestion! Reasonable people do not check for
unlikely causes to the problem at hand.

Regards
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 23, 2005 7:24:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Nope, the FAT boot sector on floppies does NOT say "ctrl-alt-del to
reboot",
it is "press any key to reboot".

Why all the semantics coming from the "experts" on here? "Pressing any
key to reboot" and CTRL+ALT+DEL does the exact same thing, restart the
computer. The instruction varies from version to version and things
like upgrade / updates and SPs has a lot to do with it.
May 23, 2005 11:28:20 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> .... Read carefully the
> part that says "press any key to restart" and tell me how that is
> different from pressing "CTRL+ALT+DEL"

Computers are programmed to give specific messages depending
on determined conditions. If condition A generates "message A"
and condition B generates "message B" then by observing "message B"
one can assume that condition B occured.
Simply saying that "message A" is wrong because programmer should
use "message B" instead is quite a different story.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 24, 2005 5:03:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:D 6ofj702n1o@enews3.newsguy.com
> Nonsense. It IS booting from the disk.
>
> The "press CTRL+ALT+DEL" text only exists in the Win 2K/XP boot sector.

In the *NTFS* Win 2K/XP boot sector, apparently.

>
> Either ntldr is missing, or the volume is corrupt.

Or bios set incorrectly.

> Run chkdsk from recovery console.
>
> "modiftek" <turbo27685@aol.com> wrote in message news:1116711868.183058.201160@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > There is a very simple way to find out for yourself.
> >
> > Place a non-bootable floppy in your drive after setting your PC to boot
> > first from floppy and tell me what you see. Why else are they going to
> > tell you that you must press CTRL+ALT+DEL. That command reboots the
> > system, right? And why would they want you to reboot?
> >
> > Obviously the PC is not finding the boot device which might very well
> > be that a floppy is in the drive or the hard drive needs
> > reconfiguration or it crashed.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 24, 2005 5:05:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Kinell" <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message news:Xns965F6F9459648kxxx@62.253.162.201
> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3fctr6F73jj5U1@individual.net:
> > Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message news:Xns965F1E4BD5B8Akxxx@62.253.162.203...
> > > Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
> > > > Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote
> > > > > Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote
> >
> > > > > > I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
> > > > > > ...and did check the floppy.
> >
> > > > > An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
> > > > > Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
> > > > > mistake, so why not check out the bleedin' obvious
> > > > > possibilities early?
> >
> > > > Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
> > > > WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
> >
> > > Can't be that unlikely:
> >
> > Corse it is. You have to have a floppy in the drive accidentally
> > and it has to be a damaged 2K emergency floppy with no
> > NTLDR on it. That isnt likely to be seen at all, way down
> > the list after some stuffup with the hard drive.
> >
> > > I've seen it a couple of times, as have a few others apparently
> > > e.g.:
> > > http://computer-vet.com/weblog/2004/11/08/ntldr_is_miss...
> > > http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
> > > http://www.tinyempire.com/shortnotes/files/ntldr_missin...
> > > http://www.anetforums.com/posts.aspx?ThreadIndex=10606
> > > http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6287-0.html?forumID=47... = 173998
> > > http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-593072.php
> > > and so on...
> >
> IMO, and that of many others, checking for a floppy in the drive

> is a reasonable suggestion in these circumstances.

So is praying to God for a miracle.
Or checking that the drive platters have gone U-shaped in case the earth
has gone flat as a pancake suddenly and the harddrive wasn't told about it.

What exactly did you not understand in
" Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
*WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE*".
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 24, 2005 8:23:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
news:Xns965F6F9459648kxxx@62.253.162.201...
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>> Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote
>>>>> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote

>>>>>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
>>>>>> ...and did check the floppy.

>>>>> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
>>>>> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
>>>>> mistake, so why not check out the bleedin' obvious
>>>>> possibilities early?

>>>> Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
>>>> WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.

>>> Can't be that unlikely:

>> Corse it is. You have to have a floppy in the drive accidentally
>> and it has to be a damaged 2K emergency floppy with no
>> NTLDR on it. That isnt likely to be seen at all, way down
>> the list after some stuffup with the hard drive.
>>
>>> I've seen it a couple of times, as have a few others apparently
>>> e.g.:
>>> http://computer-vet.com/weblog/2004/11/08/ntldr_is_miss...
>>> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000465.htm
>>> http://www.tinyempire.com/shortnotes/files/ntldr_missin...
>>> http://www.anetforums.com/posts.aspx?ThreadIndex=10606
>>> http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6287-0.html?forumID=47...
>>> = 173998
>>> http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-593072.php
>>> and so on...

> IMO, and that of many others, checking for a floppy in the
> drive is a reasonable suggestion in these circumstances.

Yes, there are indeed a number so ignorant of the basics that
they mindlessly do check for a floppy in the floppy drive when that
particular error message is seen, BUT THAT IS NEVER EVER THE
REASON FOR THE ERROR MESSAGE, BECAUSE NO FLOPPY
CAN EVER PRODUCE THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.

Anyone with a clue realises that THAT PARTICULAR ERROR
MESSAGE cannot EVER be produced by a floppy in the drive.

It can only be produced by some problem with the hard drive,
either the ntldr file has been deleted, or the drive type entry
is wrong so the contents of the hard drive cannot be read
properly anymore, or the drive has partially died so that the
MBR can still be read but the ntldr file cannot be read anymore.

Keep desperately digging, you'll be out in china any day now, again.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
May 24, 2005 8:26:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Kinell" <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
news:Xns965F6E1D3867Dkxxx@62.253.162.201...
> "Eric Gisin" <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:D 6rhhs02pqj@enews4.newsguy.com:
>
>> "Kinell" <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
>> news:Xns965F1E4BD5B8Akxxx@62.253.162.203...
>>> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3fcpcuF75rn8U1
>>> @individual.net:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Kinell <w@invalid.jp> wrote in message
>>> > news:Xns965FE2E3434Akxxx@62.253.162.201...
>>> >> Eric Gisin <ericgisin@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> >
>>> >>> I assume the OP is not a blithering idiot...
>>> >>> ...and did check the floppy.
>>> >
>>> >> An assumption that could make one look bloody stupid later.
>>> >> Even an expert such as yourself could make such a simple
>>> mistake,
>>> >> so why not check out the bleedin' obvious possibilities
>>> >> early?
>>> >
>>> > Because its very unlikely indeed that that is the problem
>>> > WITH THAT PARTICULAR ERROR MESSAGE.
>>>
>>> Can't be that unlikely: I've seen it a couple of times, as have
>>> a few others apparently e.g.:

>> Nope, the FAT boot sector on floppies does NOT say
>> "ctrl-alt-del to reboot", it is "press any key to reboot".

> Accepted. But I'd still want to check the bleedin' obvious, in case
> the blithering idiot factor applied e.g. misreporting symptoms.

Very unlikely indeed that the user could actually invent such a
specific error message, pluck it out of the air. And it makes a
lot more sense to ask the user if they are completely sure that
the error message does mention NTLDR and CTRL-ALT-DEL
!