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Harddisk-cloning: possible to log that the source disk has..

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2005 12:22:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Hello!

I hope you can answer me a question:
I read in a magazine an article about copy protection and cloning. In
that article a programmer of a big software company said, it would be
possible to recognize, that a harddisk has been cloned or imaged.

?

Hmmm, I don't think so. If I connect a harddisk as slave to my PC and
don't start any software of that drive, how can this be identified? At
least a program which logs it anywhere must be executed as soon as the
source disk will be accessed. But how will this program be executed?

May be here is one assembler-programmer reading this:
Is it possible to add a small routine to the boot area of a
harddisk...or something like that...I guess you know what I mean)?

It would be interesting to read your thoughts about this!

Best,
Stefan
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 5, 2005 7:34:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk? I'm
talking about the source harddisk and not the target/new/cloned disk.

Stefan
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 6, 2005 9:11:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

<StefanMueller65535@web.de> wrote in message
news:1120576954.047832.59280@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> I hope you can answer me a question:
> I read in a magazine an article about copy protection and cloning. In
> that article a programmer of a big software company said, it would be
> possible to recognize, that a harddisk has been cloned or imaged.

> ?

> Hmmm, I don't think so. If I connect a harddisk as slave to my PC and
> don't start any software of that drive, how can this be identified? At
> least a program which logs it anywhere must be executed as soon as the
> source disk will be accessed. But how will this program be executed?

> May be here is one assembler-programmer reading this:
> Is it possible to add a small routine to the boot area of a
> harddisk...or something like that...I guess you know what I mean)?

> It would be interesting to read your thoughts about this!

All drives have a readable serial number and
that can be used to check if that has changed.

It isnt rocket science and nothing to do with assembler at all.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 6, 2005 12:51:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

<StefanMueller65535@web.de> wrote in message
news:1120602864.925600.15300@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk?

It doesnt, but it obviously changes when you clone a drive.

> I'm talking about the source harddisk and not the target/new/cloned disk.

Ghost does write its own turd to a drive thats been the source with a clone.
July 6, 2005 11:21:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:51:16 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
><StefanMueller65535@web.de> wrote in message
>news:1120602864.925600.15300@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk?
>
>It doesnt, but it obviously changes when you clone a drive.

No, it does not. Here the issue is that someone as a drive A
containing data he does not want to be copied. If someone can take the
drive A, and clone it on a B drive, putting back the A drive in the
computer, how can the owner of A know that the data as been cloned ?

>
>> I'm talking about the source harddisk and not the target/new/cloned disk.
>
>Ghost does write its own turd to a drive thats been the source with a clone.
>

Ghost is one clone software among dozens.

Nick
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2005 8:39:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Nick <char-DONTBUGME-les@YY.iiedotcnam.france> wrote in
message news:em4oc1ls9iqi5ros96doghmm257fo557ge@4ax.com...
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> <StefanMueller65535@web.de> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>> <StefanMueller65535@web.de> wrote

>>>>> I hope you can answer me a question:
>>>>> I read in a magazine an article about copy protection and cloning. In
>>>>> that article a programmer of a big software company said, it would
>>>>> be possible to recognize, that a harddisk has been cloned or imaged.

>>>>> ?

>>>>> Hmmm, I don't think so. If I connect a harddisk as slave to my PC and
>>>>> don't start any software of that drive, how can this be identified? At
>>>>> least a program which logs it anywhere must be executed as soon as the
>>>>> source disk will be accessed. But how will this program be executed?

>>>>> May be here is one assembler-programmer reading this:
>>>>> Is it possible to add a small routine to the boot area of a
>>>>> harddisk...or something like that...I guess you know what I mean)?

>>>>> It would be interesting to read your thoughts about this!

>>>> All drives have a readable serial number and
>>>> that can be used to check if that has changed.

>>>> It isnt rocket science and nothing to do with assembler at all.

>>> Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk?

>> It doesnt, but it obviously changes when you clone a drive.

> No, it does not.

Corse it does. The original and the clone have to have different serial numbers.

> Here the issue is that someone as a drive A
> containing data he does not want to be copied.

There are obvious and completely bulletproof ways to secure that data.

> If someone can take thedrive A, and clone it on a B
> drive, putting back the A drive in the computer, how
> can the owner of A know that the data as been cloned ?

The only viable approach is to ensure that even if the drive is
cloned, the clone will be completely useless access to data wise.

Completely routine and has been available for years and years now.

Most commonly used with laptops.

>>> I'm talking about the source harddisk and not the target/new/cloned disk.

>> Ghost does write its own turd to a drive thats been the source with a clone.

> Ghost is one clone software among dozens.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?
July 7, 2005 8:40:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:39:59 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>>> Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk?
>
>>> It doesnt, but it obviously changes when you clone a drive.
>
>> No, it does not.
>
>Corse it does. The original and the clone have to have different serial numbers.
>
>> Here the issue is that someone as a drive A
>> containing data he does not want to be copied.
>
>There are obvious and completely bulletproof ways to secure that data.

Can I remind you the original question :
"
I hope you can answer me a question:
I read in a magazine an article about copy protection and cloning. In
that article a programmer of a big software company said, it would be
possible to recognize, that a harddisk has been cloned or imaged."

The question is not : "what happen if I change a drive?" or "how can I
secure the data?"

Nick
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 7, 2005 1:09:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Nick <char-DONTBUGME-les@YY.iiedotcnam.france> wrote in
message news:udkoc1lqfpv8909i2va3ijrqkvd34gldhm@4ax.com...
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>>> Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk?

>>>> It doesnt, but it obviously changes when you clone a drive.

>>> No, it does not.

>> Corse it does. The original and the clone have to have different serial
>> numbers.

>>> Here the issue is that someone as a drive A
>>> containing data he does not want to be copied.

>> There are obvious and completely bulletproof ways to secure that data.

> Can I remind you the original question :

I restored it to the quoting for a reason, stupid.

> "I hope you can answer me a question:
> I read in a magazine an article about copy protection and cloning. In
> that article a programmer of a big software company said, it would
> be possible to recognize, that a harddisk has been cloned or imaged."

> The question is not : "what happen if I change a drive?"
> or "how can I secure the data?"

Just another example of the wrong question, stupid.
July 7, 2005 1:09:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:09:58 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>Nick <char-DONTBUGME-les@YY.iiedotcnam.france> wrote in
>message news:udkoc1lqfpv8909i2va3ijrqkvd34gldhm@4ax.com...
>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>>>>> Why should the serial number change when I read from a harddisk?
>
>>>>> It doesnt, but it obviously changes when you clone a drive.
>
>>>> No, it does not.
>
>>> Corse it does. The original and the clone have to have different serial
>>> numbers.
>
>>>> Here the issue is that someone as a drive A
>>>> containing data he does not want to be copied.
>
>>> There are obvious and completely bulletproof ways to secure that data.
>
>> Can I remind you the original question :
>
>I restored it to the quoting for a reason, stupid.

You went astray from the beginning, and again in the second answer. If
you clone a drive, you do not change the serial number of the source.
All this thread is about the source drive, not the destination.

Nick
July 8, 2005 2:27:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

>> You went astray from the beginning,
>
>Nope. I answered the question that should have been asked.

Nope, you wasted the time of the guy who asked the question.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 8, 2005 11:07:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Nick wrote:

>>> You went astray from the beginning,

>> Nope. I answered the question that should have been asked.

> Nope, you wasted the time of the guy who asked the question.

Nope, he asked the wrong question and that was meaningless.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 8, 2005 10:30:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

StefanMueller65535@web.de wrote:
> Hello!

> I hope you can answer me a question:
> I read in a magazine an article about copy protection and cloning. In
> that article a programmer of a big software company said, it would be
> possible to recognize, that a harddisk has been cloned or imaged.

All hard drives have a unique serial number embedded in their firmware.
If an application can access this serial number it can tell whether it was
moved to a different drive.
That is, it can hide an encrypted number in the Windows registry
during the application Setup process then refer to this anytime you run
the app.

Now to obtain the number - for windows NT, 2000 and XP/2003 Server the
installer has to be running as "LocalSystem" to be able to issue the
system call that returns device ID.

hope this helps....

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Herb Oxley
Reply-to: address IS Valid.
July 8, 2005 11:39:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 07:07:29 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Nick wrote:
>
>>>> You went astray from the beginning,
>
>>> Nope. I answered the question that should have been asked.
>
>> Nope, you wasted the time of the guy who asked the question.
>
>Nope, he asked the wrong question and that was meaningless.
>

YOU say so. I feel it is an interesting question to know if there is a
way to detect the cloning of a drive

Nick
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 9, 2005 1:52:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3j5jskFoinliU1@individual.net
> Nick wrote:
>
> > > > You went astray from the beginning,
>
> > > Nope. I answered the question that should have been asked.
>
> > Nope, you wasted the time of the guy who asked the question.
>
> Nope, he asked the wrong question and that was meaningless.

The question was fine.
Whether he truly understood the article he read is an entirely other matter.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 9, 2005 8:47:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Nick <char-DONTBUGME-les@YY.iiedotcnam.france> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Nick <char-DONTBUGME-les@YY.iiedotcnam.france> wrote

>>>>> You went astray from the beginning,

>>>> Nope. I answered the question that should have been asked.

>>> Nope, you wasted the time of the guy who asked the question.

>> Nope, he asked the wrong question and that was meaningless.

> YOU say so.

Its obvious to anyone with a clue so.

> I feel it is an interesting question to know if
> there is a way to detect the cloning of a drive

Corse there cant be.
July 9, 2005 12:53:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 04:47:15 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> YOU say so.
>
>Its obvious to anyone with a clue so.
>
>> I feel it is an interesting question to know if
>> there is a way to detect the cloning of a drive
>
>Corse there cant be.
>

So that's what you should have said from the beginning, and only after
you could have said anything you find relevant. Not the other way
round.

Nick
!