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Best strategy hard drive swapping?

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Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 12, 2005 7:56:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
without USB.

I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
the older 8GB drives? The two main machines are dell and amd
duron.

At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
installation compatibility?

If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best? What
should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are better
alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
that.

Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
July 12, 2005 7:56:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> without USB.
>
> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>
> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
> the older 8GB drives? The two main machines are dell and amd
> duron.
>
> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.
>
> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
> caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
> installation compatibility?
>
> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best? What
> should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are better
> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
> that.

Why do you need to swap drives occasionaly?
What OS do you run on those PCs?
Do you need to preserve data on them during swap?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 12, 2005 7:56:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> What should I look for in the specs specifically?


I archive bootable system partitions on large capacity HDs
housed in removable trays (i.e. "caddies"), each partition
immediately bootable if I have to revert to a backup system.
My "mobile racks" are made by Kingwin, and I use the model
with the fan mounted horizontally in the base of the tray - it
keeps the HD quite cool without the whine of little fans:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=2...
The trays are all-aluminum, a cut above several other brands
in that regard, and they are available from many retail websites.
A Nextag/Google/PriceWatch search will reveal dollar prices in
the mid- to low-teens for the rack/tray pair, and about $10 for
extra trays. Just use the model nos. in your search.

I also find that round cables are a great help in hooking
things up inside the PC case while keeping some room for
air flow. I use the ones with aluminum braid shields. There
seems to be just a few manufacturers - most of them in China -
and many retail websites that carry them at a broad range of
prices, but SVCompucycle seems to have the best combination
of selection and price:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-ca...


*TimDaniels*
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 12, 2005 7:56:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> swapping of drives from one machine to another.


Do you plan to swap system partitions or data partitions?
What OS will be used?

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 1:15:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an earlier thread in
this group (see google) argues that these Kingwin drives are not ATA
standard compatible and have caused problems especially when using
multiple drives. This is not my experience but comments by others here.

"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote in
news:MJCdnc5YefvKZU7fRVn-jw@comcast.com:

> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> What should I look for in the specs specifically?
>
>
> I archive bootable system partitions on large capacity HDs
> housed in removable trays (i.e. "caddies"), each partition
> immediately bootable if I have to revert to a backup system.
> My "mobile racks" are made by Kingwin, and I use the model
> with the fan mounted horizontally in the base of the tray - it
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 1:15:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an earlier thread in
> this group (see google) argues that these Kingwin drives are not ATA
> standard compatible and have caused problems especially when using
> multiple drives. This is not my experience but comments by others here.


I have 3 hard drives in my PC, and one of them is in a removable
tray. I have them all connected to a PCI ATA/133 controller card via
shielded round cables. I've had no discernable problems with them
in the 2 years I've had the setup. And yes, such hardware does not
conform to ATA specs. So? Does that mean they don't work?
Some of the student labs at UCLA are also set up with such removable
trays for students' hard drives, and they've had no problems with them.
Engineering specs are just guidelines - like clock rates on a CPU.
That doesn't stop gamers from overclocking. Sometimes you just
gotta try something for yourself. In my case, the convenience is an
overwhelming argument for using removable trays. They make
archiving multiple bootable copies of the entire system practical,
and they allow fast switchover to a working system possible in the
event of a primary HD failure. Given the cost of a rack/tray setup
(as low as $14 plus shipping), why not give it a try?

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 1:15:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an earlier thread in
> this group (see google) argues that these Kingwin drives are not ATA
> standard compatible and have caused problems especially when using
> multiple drives. This is not my experience but comments by others here.


"Hard drive problems" are frequently *heat* problems. That's why I
chose the Kingwin tray with the flat fan in the bottom of the tray. Kingwin
also makes the kind with 0 thru 2 fans in the front with room for a 3rd,
but a hardware review of the flat fan gave it high marks for cooling
effectiveness. My experience bears that out. At no time does the HD
mounted inside the removable tray feel any warmer than one mounted
normally inside the case. In fact, it feels cooler. Maybe that's why I've
had no problems with the removable drive.

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 1:52:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> without USB.
>
> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>
> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.

I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting on the
desktop for this purpose but trays work.

> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
> the older 8GB drives?

Yes, using an SATA addon card.

> The two main machines are dell and amd
> duron.
>
> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.


The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE
controller. Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.

> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
> caddies.

Ignore such nay sayers.

> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy

Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.

> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
> installation compatibility?

Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.

> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?


www.kingwin.com

I use the KF-83.

> What
> should I look for in the specs specifically?

Fans, shock mounting and price.

> If there are better
> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
> that.

You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 2:52:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:eYWAe.414693$cg1.372357@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> without USB.
>>
>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>
>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>
> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting
> on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.


Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even if
you are careful you still have problems with vibrations, etc and the
airflow to the box is not correct with the case removed (i usually use a
outside fan when I remove the case).

>
>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
>> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
>> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
>> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
>> the older 8GB drives?
>
> Yes, using an SATA addon card.

I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick to
ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?

>
>> The two main machines are dell and amd
>> duron.
>>
>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
>> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
>> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
>> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.
>
>
> The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE
> controller. Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.
>
>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
>> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
>> caddies.
>
> Ignore such nay sayers.

Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended. I would think
that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
caddy.

>
>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
>
> Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.
>
>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
>> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
>> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
>> installation compatibility?
>
> Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.
>
>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>
>
> www.kingwin.com
>
> I use the KF-83.

looks good, but as I said others have had problems with them at least
reported in this group. maybe not related to the hardware, maybe their
configurations or user error.

>
>> What
>> should I look for in the specs specifically?
>
> Fans, shock mounting and price.
>
>> If there are better
>> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
>> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
>> that.
>
> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.

originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of light
there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have warned me
against this.

>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 4:00:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vb39691A184D322DHaHaHoHoHeeHee01121F@213.155.197.138...
> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:eYWAe.414693$cg1.372357@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>>
>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>> without USB.
>>>
>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>
>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>>
>> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting
>> on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even if
> you are careful you still have problems with vibrations,

There is no vibration problem with any HD mfg-ed since 1999.

> I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick to
> ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?

Depends on the mobo BIOS and mobo ATA controller. There is no ATA 80GB
limit per se.

> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy

IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".

> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.

Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

> I would think
> that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
> caddy.


There are no such problems with most well designed caddies.

>> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
>
> originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of light
> there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have warned me
> against this.


Note who the 'others' are.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 4:14:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:UQYAe.1129893$w62.690338@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vb39691A184D322DHaHaHoHoHeeHee01121F@213.155.197.138...
>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>> news:eYWAe.414693$cg1.372357@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>
>>>
>>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>>> message news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>>> without USB.
>>>>
>>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>>
>>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>>>
>>> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or
>>> sitting on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even
>> if you are careful you still have problems with vibrations,
>
> There is no vibration problem with any HD mfg-ed since 1999.

I don't believe that for a moment. It is contrary to common sense with a
disk that spins at high speeds and your having the hard drive sitting
out in the open where it is subject to the slightest jar. That is one
reason why the caddys you recommend often feature extra shock absorbers.
Hard drives need to be securely mounted, imo, except for short testing
periods.

>
>> I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick
>> to ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?
>
> Depends on the mobo BIOS and mobo ATA controller. There is no ATA
> 80GB limit per se.
>
>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
>
> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>
>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>
> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is 18 inches and even
given that 24 inch cables might work, that shows how touch the IDE
interface is. Or maybe it's the MBs themselves or general design. Point
is that the whole standard is rather flaky if at electron speeds they
cannot design cables/etc that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.

>
>> I would think
>> that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
>> caddy.
>
>
> There are no such problems with most well designed caddies.
>
>>> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
>>
>> originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of
>> light there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have
>> warned me against this.
>
>
> Note who the 'others' are.
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 4:14:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 00:14:56 +0000 (UTC), HaHaHoHoHeeHee
<HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote:


>>
>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
>>
>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>
>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>
>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>
>It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is 18 inches and even
>given that 24 inch cables might work, that shows how touch the IDE
>interface is. Or maybe it's the MBs themselves or general design. Point
>is that the whole standard is rather flaky if at electron speeds they
>cannot design cables/etc that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>
The problem is electron speed. Electrons flowing through wires
generate an induced magnetic field that effects other wires. Better
(not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and differential signaling so that
any induced signals affect both sides of the signal oppositely and
cancel out. Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 4:31:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vb39691AF7663CA5HaHaHoHoHeeHee01121F@213.155.197.138...
> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:UQYAe.1129893$w62.690338@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>>
>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:vb39691A184D322DHaHaHoHoHeeHee01121F@213.155.197.138...
>>> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>>> news:eYWAe.414693$cg1.372357@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>>>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>>>> without USB.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>>>
>>>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>>>>
>>>> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or
>>>> sitting on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even
>>> if you are careful you still have problems with vibrations,
>>
>> There is no vibration problem with any HD mfg-ed since 1999.
>
> I don't believe that for a moment. It is contrary to common sense with a
> disk that spins at high speeds and your having the hard drive sitting
> out in the open where it is subject to the slightest jar.


Right but that is NOT a 'vibration problem'.

> That is one
> reason why the caddys you recommend often feature extra shock absorbers.
> Hard drives need to be securely mounted, imo, except for short testing
> periods.
>
>>
>>> I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick
>>> to ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?
>>
>> Depends on the mobo BIOS and mobo ATA controller. There is no ATA
>> 80GB limit per se.
>>
>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
>>
>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>
>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>
>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>
> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is 18 inches and even
> given that 24 inch cables might work, that shows how touch the IDE
> interface is.

Nope, the cable length limit with ultra SCSI and 4 or more devices is 5
feet....that's tounchy.

> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves or general design. Point
> is that the whole standard is rather flaky if at electron speeds they
> cannot design cables/etc that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.


HUH?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote

> I have several older systems, some
> with old USB 1.0 and others without USB.

> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> swapping of drives from one machine to another.

Why do you actually want to do occasional swapping of drives ?

> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-

Correct, those are just two names for the same thing.

> fastest machinesare 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives
> at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA standard?

You dont have to go SATA currently. Eventually
you wont be able to buy ATA drives at the same
price as SATA but that hasnt happened yet.

> and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines

Yes.

> and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives?

Yes.

> The two main machines are dell and amd duron.

> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't
> have to worry about jumper settings on that one machine;

It gets more complicated with removable drive bays. There is a real
sense in which you are stuck with the lowest common denominator.

> not sure about the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range,

That can be a real problem because WD has a different jumper
config for single drive on a cable and for master of a pair, if cable
select isnt used. Thats a real problem with removable drive bays
because that may require a jumper change of the internal drive
depending on whether there is a removable drive plugged in or not.

Not always tho, some bios see the WD drives
when not jumpered correctly and some dont.

> with one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may
> be USB upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades
> mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

You will however need the removable drive bays and that is in some
ways worse than adding USB2 to a system that doesnt have it.

> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I read
> a thread on this group that some have had problems with these caddies.

Yep, thats the main problem with them.

Not that the USB route is problem free tho.

> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive
> and put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?).

That is still possible if you have an ATA/SATA converter in the old systems.

> I am not sure what the differences are between
> these standards in terms of installation compatibility?

The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.

> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?

Many like Kingwin.

> What should I look for in the specs specifically?

Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its very
much a trial and error process with something that flouts the standard.

> If there are better alternatives, I'd like to hear them.

Lot to be said for just installing the drives internally as
long as you dont want to play musical drives very often.

> Originally I thought of using an extra long IDE
> ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do that.

Yeah, they flout the standard even more comprehensively.

> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.

I'd consider again whether you really need to play musical drives much.

And networking the PCs is another alternative to musical drives too.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Hey thanks Rod for your usual cryptic, yet informational reply.

Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems, one reason I posted
before buying caddies.

Networking is a good suggestion, but right now I have alot on my table.

Seems from earlier posts that these caddies have more problems if there
is more than one in use on the same system. So, I guess I have to look
for a vendor that offers a money back warranty in case they do not work
on the dell or amd machine.

What is the generally worst scenario with using these. Do people often
mess up their drives/data trying them? Or is it usually just a matter of
them not being recognized or data transfer errors?

Cannot use SATA, system does not have right MB interface for them as is,
so will stick to ATA, that limits me to 80 GB, right?

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:3jighhFq1egnU1@individual.net:

> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote
>
>> I have several older systems, some
>> with old USB 1.0 and others without USB.
>
>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>
> Why do you actually want to do occasional swapping of drives ?
>
>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-
>
> Correct, those are just two names for the same thing.
>
>> fastest machinesare 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives
>> at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA standard?
>
> You dont have to go SATA currently. Eventually
> you wont be able to buy ATA drives at the same
> price as SATA but that hasnt happened yet.
>
>> and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines
>
> Yes.
>
>> and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives?
>
> Yes.
>
>> The two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>
>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't
>> have to worry about jumper settings on that one machine;
>
> It gets more complicated with removable drive bays. There is a real
> sense in which you are stuck with the lowest common denominator.
>
>> not sure about the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB
>> range,
>
> That can be a real problem because WD has a different jumper
> config for single drive on a cable and for master of a pair, if cable
> select isnt used. Thats a real problem with removable drive bays
> because that may require a jumper change of the internal drive
> depending on whether there is a removable drive plugged in or not.
>
> Not always tho, some bios see the WD drives
> when not jumpered correctly and some dont.
>
>> with one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may
>> be USB upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades
>> mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more
>> cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a
>> minumum.
>
> You will however need the removable drive bays and that is in some
> ways worse than adding USB2 to a system that doesnt have it.
>
>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I read
>> a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
>> caddies.
>
> Yep, thats the main problem with them.
>
> Not that the USB route is problem free tho.
>
>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive
>> and put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?).
>
> That is still possible if you have an ATA/SATA converter in the old
> systems.
>
>> I am not sure what the differences are between
>> these standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>
> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.
>
> That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
> but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.
>
>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>
> Many like Kingwin.
>
>> What should I look for in the specs specifically?
>
> Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its
> very much a trial and error process with something that flouts the
> standard.
>
>> If there are better alternatives, I'd like to hear them.
>
> Lot to be said for just installing the drives internally as
> long as you dont want to play musical drives very often.
>
>> Originally I thought of using an extra long IDE
>> ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do that.
>
> Yeah, they flout the standard even more comprehensively.
>
>> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>
> I'd consider again whether you really need to play musical drives
> much.
>
> And networking the PCs is another alternative to musical drives too.
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3jighhFq1egnU1@individual.net...

> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

Usual nonsense. SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down
swapping works just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it. Cable
Select works most conveniently in such ATA situations.

> That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
> but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.

Utter nonsense.

> Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its very
> much a trial and error process with something that flouts the standard.

Utter nonsense.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems,

Can you cite a thread? This sounds like FUD.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:EYWAe.414695$cg1.63138@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:


Rod Speed wasn't the only one that was complaining about these caddies.
Google this group for the thread, several users had problems with
removable caddies, but do not know if this was necessarily caused by
non-compliant ATA hardware.

>
> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3jighhFq1egnU1@individual.net...
>
>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.
>
> Usual nonsense. SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power
> down swapping works just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against
> it. Cable Select works most conveniently in such ATA situations.
>
>> That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
>> but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.
>
> Utter nonsense.
>
>> Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its
>> very much a trial and error process with something that flouts the
>> standard.
>
> Utter nonsense.
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

I have been using a CRU-DataPort caddy for a few years. It works well.


On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:24:08 +0000 (UTC), HaHaHoHoHeeHee
<HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
>news:EYWAe.414695$cg1.63138@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>
>Rod Speed wasn't the only one that was complaining about these caddies.
>Google this group for the thread, several users had problems with
>removable caddies, but do not know if this was necessarily caused by
>non-compliant ATA hardware.
>
>>
>> "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:3jighhFq1egnU1@individual.net...
>>
>>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.
>>
>> Usual nonsense. SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power
>> down swapping works just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against
>> it. Cable Select works most conveniently in such ATA situations.
>>
>>> That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
>>> but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.
>>
>> Utter nonsense.
>>
>>> Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its
>>> very much a trial and error process with something that flouts the
>>> standard.
>>
>> Utter nonsense.
>>
>>
>>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 8:30:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Shel" <scs@XXXieee.org> wrote in message
news:19m8d1plcfg9p264eusj7al3o607k1875i@4ax.com...
>I have been using a CRU-DataPort caddy for a few years. It works well.

Some of the older CRU ones are plastic without fans and therefore drive
ovens causing early drive death.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 12:49:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an
> earlier thread in this group (see google) argues that
> these Kingwin drives are not ATA standard compatible

No removable caddys are.

> and have caused problems especially when using multiple drives.

Just as true of all the other caddys apart from the SATA ones.

> This is not my experience but comments by others here.


> Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote
>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote

>>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>>> What should I look for in the specs specifically?

>> I archive bootable system partitions on large capacity HDs
>> housed in removable trays (i.e. "caddies"), each partition
>> immediately bootable if I have to revert to a backup system.
>> My "mobile racks" are made by Kingwin, and I use the model
>> with the fan mounted horizontally in the base of the tray - it
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 12:54:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote

> Hey thanks Rod for your usual cryptic, yet informational reply.

> Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems,
> one reason I posted before buying caddies.

> Networking is a good suggestion, but right now I have alot on my table.

Its actually rather easier to do than removable drive caddys.

> Seems from earlier posts that these caddies have more
> problems if there is more than one in use on the same system.

They can be a problem with just one too.

> So, I guess I have to look for a vendor that offers a money back
> warranty in case they do not work on the dell or amd machine.

Trouble is that the problems can show up later,
and bite you on the bum when you least expect it.

> What is the generally worst scenario with using these.
> Do people often mess up their drives/data trying them?

Yes, they can lose data. You dont see dead drives tho.

> Or is it usually just a matter of them not being recognized

Yes, particularly with WD drives because of the jumper problem.

> or data transfer errors?

Thats quite common when problems are seen.

> Cannot use SATA, system does not have right MB interface for them as is,

You can get converters between the ATA the motherboard
supports and the SATA the drive supports.

> so will stick to ATA, that limits me to 80 GB, right?

Nope, there are 400G ATA drives around,
and virtually everyone has a 250G ATA drive.


> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote

>>> I have several older systems, some
>>> with old USB 1.0 and others without USB.
>>
>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>
>> Why do you actually want to do occasional swapping of drives ?
>>
>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-
>>
>> Correct, those are just two names for the same thing.
>>
>>> fastest machinesare 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives
>>> at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA standard?
>>
>> You dont have to go SATA currently. Eventually
>> you wont be able to buy ATA drives at the same
>> price as SATA but that hasnt happened yet.
>>
>>> and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>> The two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>>
>>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't
>>> have to worry about jumper settings on that one machine;
>>
>> It gets more complicated with removable drive bays. There is a real
>> sense in which you are stuck with the lowest common denominator.
>>
>>> not sure about the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB
>>> range,
>>
>> That can be a real problem because WD has a different jumper
>> config for single drive on a cable and for master of a pair, if cable
>> select isnt used. Thats a real problem with removable drive bays
>> because that may require a jumper change of the internal drive
>> depending on whether there is a removable drive plugged in or not.
>>
>> Not always tho, some bios see the WD drives
>> when not jumpered correctly and some dont.
>>
>>> with one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may
>>> be USB upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>>> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades
>>> mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more
>>> cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a
>>> minumum.
>>
>> You will however need the removable drive bays and that is in some
>> ways worse than adding USB2 to a system that doesnt have it.
>>
>>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
>>> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
>>> caddies.
>>
>> Yep, thats the main problem with them.
>>
>> Not that the USB route is problem free tho.
>>
>>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
>>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive
>>> and put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?).
>>
>> That is still possible if you have an ATA/SATA converter in the old
>> systems.
>>
>>> I am not sure what the differences are between
>>> these standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>>
>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.
>>
>> That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
>> but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.
>>
>>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>>
>> Many like Kingwin.
>>
>>> What should I look for in the specs specifically?
>>
>> Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its
>> very much a trial and error process with something that flouts the
>> standard.
>>
>>> If there are better alternatives, I'd like to hear them.
>>
>> Lot to be said for just installing the drives internally as
>> long as you dont want to play musical drives very often.
>>
>>> Originally I thought of using an extra long IDE
>>> ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do that.
>>
>> Yeah, they flout the standard even more comprehensively.
>>
>>> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>>
>> I'd consider again whether you really need to play musical drives
>> much.
>>
>> And networking the PCs is another alternative to musical drives too.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 12:55:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote

>> Yes, the KingWin drive users have reported problems,

> Can you cite a thread?

Just search on kingwin.

> This sounds like FUD.

Thats what you claimed about the IBM 75GXP drives too.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 1:00:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

> Usual nonsense.

We'll see...

> SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down swapping works just
> fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it.

The problem with ATA removable drive bays is that they
flout the CABLE specs in the ATA standard. What you
have with every removable drive bay is nothing like
what the ATA standard specifys FOR THE CABLE.

> Cable Select works most conveniently in such ATA situations.

Wrong again. The problem is that a single drive is at the
end of the cable and the bay needs to be on the middle
connector if there is more than one drive on that cable.

>> That doesnt mean that the ATA removable bays never work,
>> but it does mean that you cant be sure they will work reliably.

> Utter nonsense.

This is from the clown that made the same claim
about the IBM 75GXPs that managed to generate a
full class action suit, which IBM has just caved in on.

>> Thats the main problem with those, the specs dont really help. Its very much
>> a trial and error process with something that flouts the standard.

> Utter nonsense.

This is from the clown that made the same claim
about the IBM 75GXPs that managed to generate a
full class action suit, which IBM has just caved in on.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 1:00:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3jj0buFpmlkpU1@individual.net...
> Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.
>
>> Usual nonsense.
>
> We'll see...
>
>> SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down swapping works
>> just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it.
>
> The problem with ATA removable drive bays is that they
> flout the CABLE specs in the ATA standard.

Nope.

>What you
> have with every removable drive bay is nothing like
> what the ATA standard specifys FOR THE CABLE.

Nope.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 2:47:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:

> "Ron Reaugh" <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:eYWAe.414693$cg1.372357@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>>
>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>> without USB.
>>>
>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>
>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
>>
>> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting
>> on the desktop for this purpose but trays work.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply, but I think the above is a very bad idea. Even if
> you are careful you still have problems with vibrations, etc and the
> airflow to the box is not correct with the case removed (i usually use a
> outside fan when I remove the case).

I've noticed no difference in reliability or stability or operating
temperatures with the case open or closed on most machines. If there's a
problem it's generally on a tightly cased machine with marginal cooling and
often leaving the case open improves the situation. PCs just aren't that
fragile.

>>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
>>> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
>>> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
>>> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
>>> the older 8GB drives?
>>
>> Yes, using an SATA addon card.
>
> I want to limit the amount of new hardware at this time. Will stick to
> ATA, though I think this limits me to 80GB per drive?

What ever gave you that idea?
<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1682...;

Your particular motherboard may have an 8, 32, or 128 gig limit, depending
on its age, and that may or may not be addressable by a BIOS upgrade.

>>> The two main machines are dell and amd
>>> duron.
>>>
>>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
>>> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
>>> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
>>> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.
>>
>>
>> The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE
>> controller. Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.
>>
>>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
>>> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
>>> caddies.
>>
>> Ignore such nay sayers.
>
> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy
> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended. I would think
> that their could be problems with the additional connections with a
> caddy.

They're not _that_ touchy. The caddies work fine as long as you don't try
to hot-swap them. Cold swap is no different than pulling a drive out and
replacing it.

>>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
>>
>> Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.
>>
>>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
>>> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
>>> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
>>> installation compatibility?
>>
>> Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.
>>
>>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>>
>>
>> www.kingwin.com
>>
>> I use the KF-83.
>
> looks good, but as I said others have had problems with them at least
> reported in this group. maybe not related to the hardware, maybe their
> configurations or user error.

Probably user error. I've had no trouble with Kingwin. But then I notice
that I seem to have far less trouble with my systems than do many posters.

>>> What
>>> should I look for in the specs specifically?
>>
>> Fans, shock mounting and price.
>>
>>> If there are better
>>> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
>>> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
>>> that.
>>
>> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
>
> originally I just thought since electrons travel at the speed of light
> there should be no problem with a longer cable,but others have warned me
> against this.

(a) Electrons do not travel at the speed of light. If all the energy in the
universe were collected and all the matter converted to energy and that
energy was applied to a single electron it would not reach the velocity of
light, although it would be pretty close. The propagation velocity in
wires is typically 60-80% of the velocity of light.

(b) The velocity makes no difference--interference and cross talk are the
issues. Television and radio broadcasts _do_ travel at the velocity of
light, but they are not free from interference.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 3:01:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> The short story is that removeable drives are allowed in
>>>> the SATA standard and not in the older ATA standard.

>>> Usual nonsense.

>> We'll see...

>>> SATA allows for -hot swap- and ATA does not. Power down swapping
>>> works just fine in ATA and the spec says nothing against it.

>> The problem with ATA removable drive bays is that they flout the CABLE specs
>> in the ATA standard.

> Nope.

Yep, have a look at the specs of the cable in the standard.

Those bays use nothing like that between the
drive connector and the controller connector.

>> What you have with every removable drive bay is nothing like what the ATA
>> standard specifys FOR THE CABLE.

> Nope.

Yep, have a look at the specs of the cable in the standard.

Those bays use nothing like that between the
drive connector and the controller connector.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 3:06:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Ron Reaugh <ron-reaugh@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote

>> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others without USB.

>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.

>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.

> I keep the cases off most my machines and have HDs hanging or sitting on the
> desktop for this purpose

Some drives get stinking hot surprisingly quickly when used like that.

> but trays work.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont

>> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
>> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so that will mean
>> going to the SATA standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives?

> Yes, using an SATA addon card.

>> The two main machines are dell and amd duron.

>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
>> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
>> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
>> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.

> The mobo BIOS may not support large HDs when using the mobo's IDE controller.
> Use an addon PCI card that does support large HDs.

Makes more sense to flash the bios if they dont.

>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I read a
>> thread on this group that some have had problems with these caddies.

> Ignore such nay sayers.

Ignore fools so stupid that they didnt even
notice the problem with the IBN 75GXPs.

>> Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy

> Ignore all such recommendation from wacko speedo.

Ignore fools so stupid that they didnt even
notice the problem with the IBN 75GXPs.

>> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
>> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
>> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
>> installation compatibility?

> Assume no problems as the SATA will be via an addon card.

>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?

> www.kingwin.com

> I use the KF-83.

>> What should I look for in the specs specifically?

> Fans, shock mounting and price.

>> If there are better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought
>> of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do that.

> You can usually get away with a 24 inch one.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 3:38:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are so touchy

>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".

>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.

>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.

True.

>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves

Nope.

>> or general design.

Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.

That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
doesnt help with the length, just the speed.

>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.

They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.

> The problem is electron speed.

Nope.

> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.

Nothing to do with electron speed,
thats the rise time of the signal edges.

> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.

Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
speed which is the same in both types of cable.

> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.

Well enough if they arent too long.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 4:33:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. Hate to sound ungrateful, but an earlier
>> thread in this group (see google) argues that these Kingwin drives
>> are not ATA standard compatible and have caused problems especially
>> when using multiple drives. This is not my experience but comments
>> by others here.
>
>
> "Hard drive problems" are frequently *heat* problems. That's why I
> chose the Kingwin tray with the flat fan in the bottom of the tray. Kingwin
> also makes the kind with 0 thru 2 fans in the front with room
> for a 3rd, but a hardware review of the flat fan gave it high marks
> for cooling effectiveness. My experience bears that out. At no time
> does the HD mounted inside the removable tray feel any warmer than
> one mounted normally inside the case. In fact, it feels cooler. Maybe that's
> why I've had no problems with the removable drive.

Nope, plenty have had other problems like the one whoever it was
rubbed your nose in, the drive not always being visible at boot time.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 13, 2005 9:09:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've had, I used
caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors. Rather, I used an
identical Promise ide controller in each. No bios recognition differences
as a consequence. Used Kingston caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap
only. Standard 18" 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower
case. Just be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if you choose
instead of cable select.

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> without USB.
>
> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>
> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive caddies.
> All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I think-fastest machines
> are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new drives at some time, so
> that will mean going to the SATA standard? and can these new
> drives be put in 2000/800MHZ machines and can they be mixed with
> the older 8GB drives? The two main machines are dell and amd
> duron.
>
> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want maximum
> interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB upgrades mean
> I may have to reflash the bios on one of them, install more cards,
> etc.-trying to keep my new hardware installations to a minumum.
>
> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until I
> read a thread on this group that some have had problems with these
> caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard caddy
> and what implications does that have in case I buy a new drive and
> put it in the same machine with the older drives (ATA?). I am not
> sure what the differences are between these standards in terms of
> installation compatibility?
>
> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best? What
> should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are better
> alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I thought of using
> an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found out you cannot do
> that.
>
> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 4:18:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:

> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are
>>>>> so touchy
>
>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>
>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>
>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>
>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>
> True.
>
>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>
> Nope.
>
>>> or general design.
>
> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>
> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>
>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>
> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>
>> The problem is electron speed.
>
> Nope.
>
>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>
> Nothing to do with electron speed,
> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>
>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>
> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>
>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>
> Well enough if they arent too long.
>

So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables, is
that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type of
cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that I
could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry if
that's a dumb question,but my background in digital electronics is
limited.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 4:18:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:

> on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:
>
>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces are
>>>>>> so touchy
>>
>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>
>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>
>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>>
>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>>
>> True.
>>
>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>>> or general design.
>>
>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>>
>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>>
>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>>
>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>>
>>> The problem is electron speed.
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>>
>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>>
>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>>
>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>>
>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>>
>> Well enough if they arent too long.
>>
>
> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables, is
> that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type of
> cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that I
> could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry if
> that's a dumb question,but my background in digital electronics is
> limited.

Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked up and
wrapped in a piece of tubing. You won't get any more distance out of them
than flat cables and they're more out of spec than any halfway decent caddy
would ever be. Their main utility is to make geek-chic machines with
windows in the side look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to
ubergeeks.

If you want more span then you need to go to a different signalling
method--you can get an SATA-to-PATA bridge or a Firewire bridge or a USB2
bridge, all of which will allow you longer cables than standard PATA, but
you'll then have the bridge to contend with which can introduce problems of
its own.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 4:18:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" wrote:
> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been
> hacked up and wrapped in a piece of tubing.


Not true. The vast majority of "round" cables consist of
each data line twisted together with a ground line and all the
twisted pairs enclosed in a plastic sheath. There are also
shielded "round" cables wherein the twisted pairs are enclosed
in a sheath of braided aluminum or copper wires and the
whole assembly enclosed in a clear plastic sheath.


> Their main utility is to make geek-chic machines with
> windows in the side look k3w1 to wannabees and provide
> a good laugh to ubergeeks.


Again not true. "Round" cables are primarily used to
provide better ventilation inside the PC's case as they are
more compact and don't have to be folded origami-style
to make them turn corners. They also come in a variety
of lengths, and they come in 2-connector form (to serve
just one IDE drive) as well as the normal 3-connector
form which serves two IDE drives. Here, again, is a picture
of the various lengths and configurations:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-ca...

Here is an example of the braided copper shield cable:
http://www.svcompucycle.com/rc18hd1-cop.html

"Round" cables are just the thing to tidy up the inside of a
PC's case, and in my system, they make the use of 3 hard drives,
an optical drive and a Zip drive possible.

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 4:33:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:

> Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> you choose instead of cable select.
>
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
> message
> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> without USB.
>>
>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>
>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>>
>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>> installations to a minumum.
>>
>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>>
>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>> out you cannot do that.
>>
>> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>>
Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 6:56:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

on 13 Jul 2005, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid>
wrote in news:D b4dfa01922@news2.newsguy.com:

> HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:
>
>> on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:
>>
>>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>
>>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces
>>>>>>> are so touchy
>>>
>>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>>
>>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>>
>>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>>>
>>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>>> or general design.
>>>
>>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>>>
>>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>>>
>>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>>>
>>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>>>
>>>> The problem is electron speed.
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>>>
>>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>>>
>>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>>>
>>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>>>
>>> Well enough if they arent too long.
>>>
>>
>> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables,
>> is that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type
>> of cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that
>> I could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry
>> if that's a dumb question,but my background in digital
>> electronics is limited.
>
> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked
> up and wrapped in a piece of tubing. You won't get any more
> distance out of them than flat cables and they're more out of
> spec than any halfway decent caddy would ever be. Their main
> utility is to make geek-chic machines with windows in the side
> look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to ubergeeks.
>
> If you want more span then you need to go to a different
> signalling method--you can get an SATA-to-PATA bridge or a
> Firewire bridge or a USB2 bridge, all of which will allow you
> longer cables than standard PATA, but you'll then have the
> bridge to contend with which can introduce problems of its own.
>

Ok, thanks, looks like caddies are the best way to go if I must
have easily removable IDE drives. I took a quick look at three
different mfg. pages, including kingwin and all the cheaper models
were plastic, no fan for like $30. Guess I did not look hard
enough. If you have a model number for the $20 alum. fan model,
can you give that to me? Thanks.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 6:56:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" wrote
> Ok, thanks, looks like caddies are the best way to go if I must
> have easily removable IDE drives. I took a quick look at three
> different mfg. pages, including kingwin and all the cheaper models
> were plastic, no fan for like $30. Guess I did not look hard
> enough. If you have a model number for the $20 alum. fan model,
> can you give that to me? Thanks.


Here it is again is the direct link to the Kingwin model with the
fan in the bottom of the tray:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=2...
As you can see, the model no. is KF-101-IPF .
If you want it in black, here is the link:
http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&CateID=2...
And as you can see, that model no. KF-101-IPF-B .

Now go to Nextag.com and enter the model no. and do the search,
and you'll find the tray and rack pair going for $25. Search more
diligently, and you'll find lower prices.

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 6:56:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:

> on 13 Jul 2005, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid>
> wrote in news:D b4dfa01922@news2.newsguy.com:
>
>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee wrote:
>>
>>> on 12 Jul 2005, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>> news:3jj9kdFq3pcbU1@individual.net:
>>>
>>>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since the IDE interfaces
>>>>>>>> are so touchy
>>>>
>>>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".
>>>>
>>>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.
>>>>
>>>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>>> or general design.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>>>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.
>>>>
>>>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>>>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>>>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.
>>>>
>>>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.
>>>>
>>>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>>>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.
>>>>
>>>>> The problem is electron speed.
>>>>
>>>> Nope.
>>>>
>>>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>>>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.
>>>>
>>>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.
>>>>
>>>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>>>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.
>>>>
>>>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Well enough if they arent too long.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended round cables,
>>> is that worth pursuing. IOW is there any way I can run any type
>>> of cable that would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that
>>> I could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box? Sorry
>>> if that's a dumb question,but my background in digital
>>> electronics is limited.
>>
>> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked
>> up and wrapped in a piece of tubing. You won't get any more
>> distance out of them than flat cables and they're more out of
>> spec than any halfway decent caddy would ever be. Their main
>> utility is to make geek-chic machines with windows in the side
>> look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to ubergeeks.
>>
>> If you want more span then you need to go to a different
>> signalling method--you can get an SATA-to-PATA bridge or a
>> Firewire bridge or a USB2 bridge, all of which will allow you
>> longer cables than standard PATA, but you'll then have the
>> bridge to contend with which can introduce problems of its own.
>>
>
> Ok, thanks, looks like caddies are the best way to go if I must
> have easily removable IDE drives. I took a quick look at three
> different mfg. pages, including kingwin and all the cheaper models
> were plastic, no fan for like $30. Guess I did not look hard
> enough. If you have a model number for the $20 alum. fan model,
> can you give that to me? Thanks.

Just go to newegg.com and search on "kingwin fan" and then pick "disk
accessories off the menu to eliminate separate fans.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 2:42:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>
> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> > you choose instead of cable select.
> >
> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
> > message
> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> >> without USB.
> >>
> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
> >>
> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
> >>
> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
> >> installations to a minumum.
> >>
> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
> >>
> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
> >> out you cannot do that.
> >>
> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
> >>
> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.

Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for yourself.
Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs are
always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided for 32
bit access (faster) in windows. Windows perceives these connected drives as
pseudo-scsi at that point.
There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 2:42:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Lil' Dave wrote:

> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
>> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>>
>> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
>> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
>> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
>> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
>> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
>> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
>> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
>> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
>> > you choose instead of cable select.
>> >
>> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>> > message
>> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> >> without USB.
>> >>
>> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>> >>
>> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>> >>
>> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>> >> installations to a minumum.
>> >>
>> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>> >>
>> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>> >> out you cannot do that.
>> >>
>> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>> >>
>> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
>> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
>> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>
> Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for yourself.
> Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
> Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs are
> always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
> otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
> connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided for
> 32
> bit access (faster) in windows.

All current Windows uses 32-bit access. Some uses 64-bit access where
available. And all current versions _do_ require a driver for Promise and
other third-party host adapters unless they're old enough for one to have
been bundled.

You're thinking windows 9x, which has been dead for several years.

> Windows perceives these connected drives
> as pseudo-scsi at that point.
> There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
> works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
> this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 5:10:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> overload@spam.ftc.gov wrote
>>> HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee_fake@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>>>> Well it makes some sense to me since
>>>>>> the IDE interfaces are so touchy

>>>>> IDE interfaces are NOT "so touchy".

>>>>>> such that adapters and longer cables are not recommended.

>>>>> Good 24 inch cables, while not in spec, generally work.

>>>> It is amazing to me that the recommended limit is
>>>> 18 inches and even given that 24 inch cables might
>>>> work, that shows how touchy the IDE interface is.

>> True.

>>>> Or maybe it's the MBs themselves

>> Nope.

>>>> or general design.

>> Yep. IDE went with unterminated drives for the simplicity
>> with those and a simple flat ribbon cable for the same reason.

>> That was later improved with 80 wire cables with
>> a ground wire between each signal wire, but that
>> doesnt help with the length, just the speed.

>>>> Point is that the whole standard is rather flaky if
>>>> at electron speeds they cannot design cables/etc
>>>> that can be extendable for reasonable lengths.

>> They can but chose not to. It was only intended for
>> internal use and the simplicity of unterminated drives.

>>> The problem is electron speed.

>> Nope.

>>> Electrons flowing through wires generate an
>>> induced magnetic field that effects other wires.

>> Nothing to do with electron speed,
>> thats the rise time of the signal edges.

>>> Better (not IDE) cables use twisted pairs and
>>> differential signaling so that any induced signals affect
>>> both sides of the signal oppositely and cancel out.

>> Correct. But that has nothing to do with electron
>> speed which is the same in both types of cable.

>>> Flat cables don't work well at high speeds.

>> Well enough if they arent too long.

> So, the suggestion of the fellow who recommended
> round cables, is that worth pursuing.

Nope. they flout the standard even more comprehensively.

If you need longer cables, use SATA instead.

> IOW is there any way I can run any type of cable that
> would be long enough, say around 3-4 feet so that I
> could hook up drives on that ide cable outside the box?

Yes, SATA can do that. So can USB2 and firewire

> Sorry if that's a dumb question,

Nar, its a very sensible question.

> but my background in digital electronics is limited.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 7:21:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote
> J. Clarke wrote

>> Round IDE cables are usually flat cables that have been hacked up and wrapped
>> in a piece of tubing.

> Not true. The vast majority of "round" cables consist of each data line
> twisted together with a ground line and all the twisted pairs enclosed in a
> plastic sheath.

Wrong. And that is electrically very different
to the only thing that the standard allows, a
flat ribbon with every second wire grounded.

> There are also shielded "round" cables wherein the twisted pairs are enclosed
> in a sheath of braided aluminum or copper wires and the whole assembly
> enclosed in a clear plastic sheath.

That is electrically very different to the
only thing that the standard allows, a flat
ribbon with every second wire grounded.

>> Their main utility is to make geek-chic machines with windows in the side
>> look k3w1 to wannabees and provide a good laugh to ubergeeks.

> Again not true.

Fraid so.

> "Round" cables are primarily used to provide better ventilation inside the
> PC's case

Wrong again.

> as they are more compact

Pity they arent normally in the main airflow.

> and don't have to be folded origami-style to make them turn corners.

Most dont need to turn any corners in decent cases.

> They also come in a variety of lengths,

So do the ATA standard cables.

> and they come in 2-connector form (to serve just one IDE drive) as well as the
> normal 3-connector form which serves two IDE drives.

So do the ATA standard cables.

> Here, again, is a picture of the various lengths and configurations:
> http://www.svcompucycle.com/cables-ata-100-133-round-ca...

Yawn.

> Here is an example of the braided copper shield cable:
> http://www.svcompucycle.com/rc18hd1-cop.html

Yawn.

> "Round" cables are just the thing to tidy up the inside of a PC's case,

I dont flout standards for such a trivial reason thanks.

> and in my system, they make the use of 3 hard drives, an optical drive and a
> Zip drive possible.

Just as possible with ATA standard cables in a properly designed case.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 7:21:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" wrote:
>> They also come in a variety of lengths,
>
> So do the ATA standard cables.


But the ATA specs call for a maximum length of 18-inches.
See www.t13.org/docs2004/d1532v2r4b-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf ,
page 29. "Round" cables come in lengths shorter and longer
than that.

*TimDaniels*
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 10:17:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone here for the good information I
received from my OP in this thread.

If you can get past all the pissing contests in this group there is alot
of useful info to be had ;-).

HaHaHoHoHeeHee <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138:

> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> without USB.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 14, 2005 11:24:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Timothy Daniels <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> They also come in a variety of lengths,

>> So do the ATA standard cables.

> But the ATA specs call for a maximum length of 18-inches.

No news to me, boy.

> See www.t13.org/docs2004/d1532v2r4b-ATA-ATAPI-7.pdf , page 29.

No need to.

> "Round" cables come in lengths shorter and longer than that.

So do flat ribbon cables.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 15, 2005 10:20:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Lil' Dave <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote:
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
>> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>>
>>> Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
>>> had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
>>> Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
>>> bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
>>> caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
>>> 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
>>> be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
>>> consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
>>> you choose instead of cable select.
>>>
>>> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>>> message
>>> news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>>>> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>>>> without USB.
>>>>
>>>> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>>>> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>>>>
>>>> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>>>> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>>>> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>>>> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>>>> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>>>> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>>>> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>>>>
>>>> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>>>> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>>>> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>>>> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>>>> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>>>> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>>>> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>>>> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>>>> installations to a minumum.
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>>>> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>>>> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>>>> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>>>> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>>>> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>>>> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>>>>
>>>> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>>>> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>>>> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>>>> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>>>> out you cannot do that.
>>>>
>>>> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>>>>
>> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
>> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
>> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>
> Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for
> yourself. Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them
> locally. Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences,

Landing zones are completely irrelevant, they have
been ignored by hard drives for years and years now.

> so HDs are always seen the same way. No driver needed for low
> level dos, linux or otherwise access to these connected hard drives.
> Windows sees these connected hard drives without a driver.
> A windows driver is provided for 32 bit access (faster) in windows.
> Windows perceives these connected drives as pseudo-scsi at that point.
> There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like
> and works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you
> intend this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 15, 2005 12:26:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:D b5pda2abg@news2.newsguy.com...
> Lil' Dave wrote:
>
> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> >> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
> >> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> >>
> >> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> >> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> >> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> >> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> >> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> >> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> >> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> >> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> >> > you choose instead of cable select.
> >> >
> >> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
> >> > message
> >> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> >> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> >> >> without USB.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> >> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
> >> >>
> >> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
> >> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
> >> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
> >> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
> >> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
> >> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
> >> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
> >> >>
> >> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> >> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> >> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> >> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> >> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> >> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
> >> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
> >> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
> >> >> installations to a minumum.
> >> >>
> >> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
> >> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
> >> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
> >> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
> >> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
> >> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
> >> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
> >> >>
> >> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> >> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
> >> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
> >> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
> >> >> out you cannot do that.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
> >> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
> >> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
> >
> > Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for
yourself.
> > Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
> > Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs
are
> > always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
> > otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
> > connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided
for
> > 32
> > bit access (faster) in windows.
>
> All current Windows uses 32-bit access. Some uses 64-bit access where
> available. And all current versions _do_ require a driver for Promise and
> other third-party host adapters unless they're old enough for one to have
> been bundled.
>
> You're thinking windows 9x, which has been dead for several years.
>

You're right of course, John.
Many older PCs can't install XP for various reasons. My crystal ball is in
the shop, so was guessing on the appropriate OS here. Thus my input on
msdos etc. and related Win 9X/ME access.
Am glad your crystal ball is working fine.

> > Windows perceives these connected drives
> > as pseudo-scsi at that point.
> > There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
> > works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
> > this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
>
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 15, 2005 12:26:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Lil' Dave wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote in message
> news:D b5pda2abg@news2.newsguy.com...
>> Lil' Dave wrote:
>>
>> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> > news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> >> on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in
>> >> news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>> >>
>> >> > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
>> >> > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
>> >> > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
>> >> > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
>> >> > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
>> >> > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
>> >> > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
>> >> > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
>> >> > you choose instead of cable select.
>> >> >
>> >> > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in
>> >> > message
>> >> > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
>> >> >> I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
>> >> >> without USB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
>> >> >> swapping of drives from one machine to another.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
>> >> >> caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
>> >> >> think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
>> >> >> drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
>> >> >> standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
>> >> >> machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
>> >> >> two main machines are dell and amd duron.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
>> >> >> worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
>> >> >> the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
>> >> >> one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
>> >> >> upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
>> >> >> maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
>> >> >> upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
>> >> >> install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
>> >> >> installations to a minumum.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
>> >> >> I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
>> >> >> these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
>> >> >> caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
>> >> >> drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
>> >> >> (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
>> >> >> standards in terms of installation compatibility?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
>> >> >> What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
>> >> >> better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
>> >> >> thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
>> >> >> out you cannot do that.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
>> >> >>
>> >> Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
>> >> How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
>> >> Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>> >
>> > Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for
> yourself.
>> > Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
>> > Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs
> are
>> > always seen the same way. No driver needed for low level dos, linux or
>> > otherwise access to these connected hard drives. Windows sees these
>> > connected hard drives without a driver. A windows driver is provided
> for
>> > 32
>> > bit access (faster) in windows.
>>
>> All current Windows uses 32-bit access. Some uses 64-bit access where
>> available. And all current versions _do_ require a driver for Promise
>> and other third-party host adapters unless they're old enough for one to
>> have been bundled.
>>
>> You're thinking windows 9x, which has been dead for several years.
>>
>
> You're right of course, John.
> Many older PCs can't install XP for various reasons. My crystal ball is
> in
> the shop, so was guessing on the appropriate OS here. Thus my input on
> msdos etc. and related Win 9X/ME access.
> Am glad your crystal ball is working fine.

They must be really old PCs if they can't handle XP or Windows 2000. I've
got 2K running fine on a P200 machine and Server 2K3 on a machine with a BX
chipset. But that's beside the point. If you tell someone that he is not
going to need a driver and he's running NT4, 2K, or XP, all of which _will_
need a driver, then he's going to get pretty frustrated trying to make his
board work. On the other hand if you tell him that he needs a driver and
it turns out he doesn't then at worst you end up looking stupid. My skin
is thick enough to tolerate looking stupid once in a while.

>> > Windows perceives these connected drives
>> > as pseudo-scsi at that point.
>> > There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
>> > works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you
>> > intend
>> > this mod on. Don't digress to other makes and models.
>>
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 15, 2005 8:01:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message news:NkrBe.3192$oZ.42@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net
> "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message news:Ham9692B2ACD71520114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> > on 13 Jul 2005, "Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in news:zVbBe.22389$eM6.17838@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> >
> > > Can't speak for others, including you. For some oldish PCs I've
> > > had, I used caddies. I NEVER used the onboard ide connectors.
> > > Rather, I used an identical Promise ide controller in each. No
> > > bios recognition differences as a consequence. Used Kingston
> > > caddies, forgot the model number, cold swap only. Standard 18"
> > > 80 wire ribbon cable was barely long enough in tower case. Just
> > > be careful if you're using the WD made drives. You have to
> > > consider master alone or master w/slave jumper pin settings, if
> > > you choose instead of cable select.
> > >
> > > "HaHaHoHoHeeHee" <HaHaHoHoHeeHee-_invalid@lycos.com> wrote in message
> > > news:Ham96915B0CE990A0114539sl329HaHaHoHo@213.155.197.138...
> > > > I have several older systems, some with old USB 1.0 and others
> > > > without USB.
> > > >
> > > > I am trying to figure out the best way to handle occasional
> > > > swapping of drives from one machine to another.
> > > >
> > > > Originally I was thinking of using removable hard drive
> > > > caddies. All drives I will be using are IDE, (ATA I
> > > > think-fastest machines are 800MHZ). I may buy some larger new
> > > > drives at some time, so that will mean going to the SATA
> > > > standard? and can these new drives be put in 2000/800MHZ
> > > > machines and can they be mixed with the older 8GB drives? The
> > > > two main machines are dell and amd duron.
> > > >
> > > > At least one of boxes supports cable select, so I don't have to
> > > > worry about jumper settings on that one machine; not sure about
> > > > the AMD Duron. Most of the drives are WD in the 8GB range, with
> > > > one 8GB Maxtor. Also one 20GM WD. These machines may be USB
> > > > upgradeable, but I'd rather not rely on USB, since I want
> > > > maximum interchange flexibility to older machines. Also USB
> > > > upgrades mean I may have to reflash the bios on one of them,
> > > > install more cards, etc.-trying to keep my new hardware
> > > > installations to a minumum.
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking of going the swappable drive caddy route, until
> > > > I read a thread on this group that some have had problems with
> > > > these caddies. Also, Rod Speed recommends using a SATA standard
> > > > caddy and what implications does that have in case I buy a new
> > > > drive and put it in the same machine with the older drives
> > > > (ATA?). I am not sure what the differences are between these
> > > > standards in terms of installation compatibility?
> > > >
> > > > If I do go with removable caddies, what brand/vendor is best?
> > > > What should I look for in the specs specifically? If there are
> > > > better alternatives, I'd like to hear them. Originally I
> > > > thought of using an extra long IDE ribbon cable until I found
> > > > out you cannot do that.
> > > >
> > > > Any good ideas or information most welcome. Thanks.
> > > >
> > Thanks for the information. Yes, I will watch the WD thing.
> > How expensive/difficult is it to install the promise controllers?
> > Why exactly is this better? Thanks.
>
> Relatively cheap, PCI card type. Go to promise.com and see for yourself.
> Not RAID or SATA. Some hardware/software stores sell them locally.
> Advantages are same bios, no CHS and landing zone differences, so HDs are
> always seen the same way.

> No driver needed for low level dos, linux or otherwise access to these
> connected hard drives.

That applies to almost every ATA controller

> Windows sees these connected hard drives without a driver.

Only Win9x.

> A windows driver is provided for 32 bit access (faster) in windows.

You don't say.

> Windows perceives these connected drives as pseudo-scsi at that point.

Nonsense.

> There are other makers of such add-on ide cards. Find one you like and
> works. Then get the same identical model for all of your PCs you intend
> this mod on.

> Don't digress to other makes and models.

The problem is in the MoBo bios when set wrong.
That isn't possible on any of the add-in controllers. They all work the same.
!