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Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 17, 2005 9:23:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Hey all.

MY COMPUTER
is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE barrier
and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future. I use it in my
graphics-intensive home-based work. Notwithstanding the characteristics
of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need of
passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it). I label the
computer “P6DGU” (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are
the relevant stats + the intended drive layout:

SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)
2 GB RAM
AMI BIOS
6-BAY TOWER
WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER

A:\……FLOPPY
C:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“MICROSOFT”………………(18 GB) IBM
Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
D:\……IDE …… [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“DOWNLOAD”………………(2 GB) Maxtor 72004 AP
E:\……IDE…………………ZIP-DISK………“EJECT”………………… (100 MB) Iomega
F:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]…… “FILES” ………………………(181 GB) Seagate
ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
G:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“GRAPHICS”…………………(181 GB) Seagate
ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
H:\……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
I:\ ……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
J:\……IDE………………CD-ROM…………“(CABLED AUDIO)”………(4X) SONY
K:\……IDE………………CD-R/RW ………“(RE-WRITEABLE)”………(24X) TDK Velo

===================================================================
STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER
ASSIGNMENTS
Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives whose
drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during WINDOWS 2000
PROFESSIONAL Setup or after. I want to understand what steps I can take
to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI
drives, in particular. I know of two ways I can control IDE drive
assignments:
1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
2.) Modify drive letters from within W2K using
……………Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK
MANAGEMENT

The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a CD
drive: I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an
install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK. I can't tell you
how many times I had all but
……………A:\……FLOPPY
……………C:\……SCSI HDD
……………D:\……IDE DVD±R/RW
connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in
the queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's
CD Setup) reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole
architecture of my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.

Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
option was WORSE: I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
with changing my drive assignments. One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then
my IDE Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the
picture>.

(put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)

Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I
ever wanted it to be was my C drive. When I asked myself why that was,
I realized that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at
the BIOS level:
……………C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't
an issue)
……………"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through
the onboard SCSI utility
……………"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI
BIOS

===================================================================
MY QUESTIONS:

Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way
that my layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will be
FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old Sony 4X
.. . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?

How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered
for Master and Slave? Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of
the IDE drives, especially since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?

Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
suggestions as to which two?

Anything special I should do as to the cabling?

Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive
letters? Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to
first set up W2K and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such
a manner that it will STICK?

Thanks for any and all help!

Angel
July 18, 2005 2:08:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

What Promise IDE card do you use?
I have encountered some problems when using it for optical drives.

Do you plan to setup your system from scratch (no file systems on hard
drives)?

Do you need to keep changing drives arrangements after OS installation?

If you answer is YES and NO respectively, just connect one SCSI
disk (IBM Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N) with SCSI ID0 and one
optical drive (DVD-RW) to motherboard IDE as a master.
Configure BIOS options.
Boot W2K istallation CD, install OS. Install SP 4,
assign distant letter (R or so) to optical drive.
Connect other drives, partiton and format them as needed.
At the end, connect other optical drives and ZIP, assign drive letters.

As long as you do not disconnect your hard drives, letters
should stay intact.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 5:47:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL wrote:

> Hey all.
>
> MY COMPUTER
> is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE barrier
> and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.

What is this "IDE barrier"? No SCSI drives are available with capacity to
match the largest IDE drives, so that can't be the "barrier" you're talking
about.

> I use it in my
> graphics-intensive home-based work. Notwithstanding the characteristics
> of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need of
> passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it). I label the
> computer ?P6DGU? (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are
> the relevant stats + the intended drive layout:
>
> SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)

Nope. I've got a P6DGU too--very nice board, but it doesn't take anything
that runs 2000 MHz. It does take two PIII/1000s, which is better than a
single 2000 MHz processor for some purposes and not as good for others.

> 2 GB RAM
> AMI BIOS
> 6-BAY TOWER
> WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
> PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER
>
> A:\??FLOPPY
> C:\??SCSI??[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]???MICROSOFT???????(18 GB) IBM
> Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
> D:\??IDE ?? [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]???DOWNLOAD???????(2 GB) Maxtor 72004
> AP E:\??IDE???????ZIP-DISK????EJECT???????? (100 MB) Iomega
> F:\??SCSI??[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]?? ?FILES? ?????????(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> G:\??SCSI??[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]???GRAPHICS????????(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> H:\??IDE??????DVD±R/RW????_______________???(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> I:\ ??IDE??????DVD±R/RW????_______________???(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> J:\??IDE??????CD-ROM?????(CABLED AUDIO)????(4X) SONY
> K:\??IDE??????CD-R/RW ????(RE-WRITEABLE)????(24X) TDK Velo
>
> ===================================================================
> STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER
> ASSIGNMENTS

Microsoft doesn't manipulate drive letter assignments.

> Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives whose
> drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during WINDOWS 2000
> PROFESSIONAL Setup or after.

Are these _your_ drives? If so then somewhere along the way if the drive
letters were not the defaults then _you_ assigned the letters.

> I want to understand what steps I can take
> to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI
> drives, in particular. I know of two ways I can control IDE drive
> assignments:
> 1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
> 2.) Modify drive letters from within W2K using
> ?????Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK
> MANAGEMENT

Yep. That's the tool that exists for the purpose.

> The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a CD
> drive: I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an
> install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK. I can't tell you
> how many times I had all but

"Back out of an install"? Once you've started the install you either finish
it or you don't. There is no "back out".

> ?????A:\??FLOPPY
> ?????C:\??SCSI HDD
> ?????D:\??IDE DVD±R/RW
> connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in
> the queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's
> CD Setup) reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole
> architecture of my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.

Yep, it remembered what you set it to. So what's the objection to going
into disk management and changing the letter?

> Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
> assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
> option was WORSE: I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
> with changing my drive assignments. One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then
> my IDE Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the
> picture>.

So assign the drive letters yourself.

> (put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)
>
> Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I
> ever wanted it to be was my C drive. When I asked myself why that was,
> I realized that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at
> the BIOS level:
> ?????C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't
> an issue)
> ?????"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through
> the onboard SCSI utility
> ?????"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI
> BIOS

No, you had not "effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level". Once
the machine has booted the BIOS is not utilized at all by Windows 2000. It
may use the CMOS setup information for reference but its operation is not
constrained by that information in any way.

> ===================================================================
> MY QUESTIONS:
>
> Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way
> that my layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will be
> FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old Sony 4X
> . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?

No.

> How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered
> for Master and Slave? Come to that ? how should I be jumpering ANY of
> the IDE drives, especially since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
>
> Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
> suggestions as to which two?
>
> Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
>
> Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive
> letters? Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to
> first set up W2K and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such
> a manner that it will STICK?
>
> Thanks for any and all help!

Look, what you're doing sounds crazy. Just set the damned machine up once,
and when it's running right don't monkey with it. If you _need_ to move
drives around then do a backup beforehand and restore afterwards.

If you are going to be plugging and unplugging drives then make sure that
all drives that will be connected to a given location have the same drive
letter assignment.
>
> Angel

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 3:22:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote

> MY COMPUTER is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE
> barrier and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.

SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and firewire now.

> I use it in my graphics-intensive home-based work. Notwithstanding the
> characteristics of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need
> of passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it). I label the computer
> “P6DGU” (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are the relevant
> stats + the intended drive layout:

> SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)
> 2 GB RAM
> AMI BIOS
> 6-BAY TOWER
> WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
> PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER

> A:\……FLOPPY
> C:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“MICROSOFT”………………(18 GB) IBM
> Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
> D:\……IDE …… [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“DOWNLOAD”………………(2 GB) Maxtor
> 72004 AP E:\……IDE…………………ZIP-DISK………“EJECT”………………… (100 MB) Iomega
> F:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]…… “FILES” ………………………(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> G:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“GRAPHICS”…………………(181 GB) Seagate
> ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> H:\……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> I:\ ……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> J:\……IDE………………CD-ROM…………“(CABLED AUDIO)”………(4X) SONY
> K:\……IDE………………CD-R/RW ………“(RE-WRITEABLE)”………(24X) TDK Velo
>
> ===================================================================
> STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER
> ASSIGNMENTS

2K doesnt do that much.

> Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives
> whose drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during
> WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL Setup or after. I want to understand what steps I
> can take to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI
> drives, in particular. I know of two ways I can control IDE drive
> assignments:
> 1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish

That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable, it
doesnt apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a letter.

> 2.) Modify drive letters from within W2K using
> Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT

> The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a
> CD drive: I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an
> install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK. I can't tell
> you how many times I had all but
> ……………A:\……FLOPPY
> ……………C:\……SCSI HDD
> ……………D:\……IDE DVD±R/RW
> connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in the
> queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's CD Setup)
> reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole architecture of
> my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.

The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the
drive you are installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are
installing it from for the install and then add the rest of the
drives back in after the install has completed.

> Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
> assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
> option was WORSE: I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
> with changing my drive assignments. One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then my IDE
> Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the picture>.

Doesnt happen if they arent present during the 2K install.

> (put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)

> Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I ever
> wanted it to be was my C drive. When I asked myself why that was, I realized
> that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level:

Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesnt change the
letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.

> ……………C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't an
> issue)
> ……………"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through the
> onboard SCSI utility
> ……………"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI BIOS

> ===================================================================
> MY QUESTIONS:

> Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way that my
> layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
> be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
> Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?

Nope.

> How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered for
> Master and Slave?

The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
You need a master and slave on each cable.

> Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives, especially
> since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?

Thats got nothing to do with the drive letters.

> Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
> suggestions as to which two?

They dont really like optical drives much.

> Anything special I should do as to the cabling?

Not relevant to drive letters.

> Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive letters?

Wont work.

> Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first set up W2K
> and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that it will
> STICK?

Just use the disk management to change the letter.

The other thing to realise is that 2K doesnt even need drive letters
at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.

Thats not true of all software tho.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 3:22:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

(Everyone) when I refer to "backing out" of the DVD±R/RW IDE D:\ drive I
am referring to uncabling it after it has been used to install W2K from
the Setup CD . . . in order to "back it back in" 4-drive installs later
as H:\

Rod Speed wrote:
> The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the
> drive you are installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are
> installing it from for the install and then add the rest of the
> drives back in after the install has completed.

Hi Rod, first thank you so much for the reply.

The "main trick" you refer to was precisely what I did in Option 1. I
can't stress this enough: W2K >>reassigned my drive letters (((AFTER)))
I had all of the drives set up. Here are the precise steps I went
through in Option 1:

=====================================
1. POWER OFF
CABLE
.. . . . . . A:\ FLOPPY
.. . . . . . C:\ SCSI HDD
.. . . . . . D:\ (one of my) DVD±R/RW
Nothing else connected
Power Up
=====================================
2. BIOS
.. . . . . . Confirm SCSI ID "1" is set to boot
.. . . . . . Confirm AMI BIOS boot order:
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FLOPPY
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SCSI
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ATAPI
.. . . . . . W2K Setup CD launches on D:\
.. . . . . . NTFS format C:\
.. . . . . . Install W2K
Reboot as prompted
=====================================
3. W2K \ RUN
Install from the files I burned to a CD
.. . . . . . Service Pack 4
.. . . . . . Rollup 1
.. . . . . . Explorer 6.0
.. . . . . . Patches
Reboot as prompted
=====================================
4. W2K \ DEVICE MANAGER
.. . . . . . Uninstall DVD±R/RW drive (D:\)
Power down
=====================================
5. POWER OFF
UNCABLE:
.. . . . . . D:\ DVD±R/RW
CABLE
.. . . . . . D:\ IDE 2 GB HDD
Power Up
W2K reports IDE 2 GB HDD as D:\
Good.
=====================================
6. POWER OFF
CABLE
.. . . . . . E:\ 100 MB ZIP DRIVE
Power Up
W2K reports IOMEGA ZIP DRIVE as E:\
Good.
=====================================
7. POWER OFF
CABLE:
.. . . . . . F:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
Power Up
W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as F:\
Good.
=====================================
8. POWER OFF
CABLE:
.. . . . . . G:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
Power Up
W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as G:\
Good.
=====================================
9. POWER OFF
CABLE:
.. . . . . . H:\ DVD±R/RW
Power Up
W2K reports DVD±R/RW DRIVE as . . .

D:\
And here is precisely where it begins manipulating my drive letters.
So I . . .
=====================================
10. W2K \ ADMINISTRATOR TOOLS
.. . . . . . Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
.. . . . . . RESET the drives to be what I want their letters to be
Reboot . . .

And invariably, perhaps not on the first reboot, but 2 or 5 or 10
reboots later — at some point ((AFTER)) I have corrected these
REconfigured drive letters through Disk Management — H:\ reclaims D:\ .
.. . and I go through this all over again.

This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those
drive letters once and for damned all. I don't care how I do it, I just
need to DO IT.

I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup,
reassign them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they
will NOT stick.

I can CABLE/REBOOT, CABLE/REBOOT (as I've just described in steps 1-10,
above) and I might get those drive letters to hang around for awhile . .
.. but sure as shootin' W2K will mess with them somewhere down the line.

Now I had one other thought which is crude, and I'd hate to have to
resort to it but I will if necessary:

I know how to generate the four W2K-Setup Boot floppies. I cannot
comprehend how W2K could be installed _in fact_ off of the equivalent of
less than 6 MB worth of data, but . . . could this be done?

Some kind of "shell" of W2K that would allow me to install my DVD±R/RW
IDE drive 5 drives down the "foodchain" as H:\?

Or would I butcher things miserably (or is this a moot point since a
shell install of W2K isn't even possible off of the 4-floppy setup set)?

I'll reply to your other comments in a subsequent post. Thank you again
Rod!

Angel
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 3:22:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:

> SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and
firewire now.

Perhaps, but the P6DGU motherboard is the one I have. And no. I'm not
purchasing a new one. :) 

>>1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
>
> That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable, it
> doesn't apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a
letter.

"they" is . . . the HDD position on the cable? . . . the cable being
disconnected? . . . the drive letter?

> Doesn't happen if they aren't present during the 2K install.

Unfortunately it does. These drives are being rearranged ((AFTER)) the
computer has been fully assembled.

> Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesn't change the
> letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.

If you read my post carefully that was the one exception I noted that
DID work. No, this problem is happening with the IDE DVD±R/RW drive
first used to install M2K. W2K appears to be collecting a footprint of
the original install . . . and stubbornly defaulting back to that first
footprint regardless of what I do. I mercifully have NO grief from my
SCSI C:\ boot drive, presumably because I've restrained Microsoft at the
BIOS level to boot to -->SCSI, whether it likes it or not.

>>Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way
that my
>>layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
>>be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
>>Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
>
> Nope.

Check.

>>How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY
jumpered for
>>Master and Slave?
>
> The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
> You need a master and slave on each cable.

Well I learn something new every day. Very helpful Rod. Thank you!

>>Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives,
especially
>>since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
>
> That's got nothing to do with the drive letters.

Check.

>>Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
>>suggestions as to which two?
>
> They don't really like optical drives much.

Hmm.

>>Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
>
> Not relevant to drive letters.

Let me pause here a moment, and forgive me if this sounds stupid (I'm
learning and we all have to start somewhere lol). Okay, the whole
"Master / Slave" thing: Does that have _anything_ whatsoever to do with
DRIVE PRECEDENCE? In other words, can you manipulate the "seek" order
of the drives by their physical position on the cable?

>>Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive
letters?
>
> Wont work.

Well that we can agree on at least lol.

>>Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first
set up W2K
>>and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that
it will
>>STICK?
>
> Just use the disk management to change the letter.

.. . . which does not stick.

> The other thing to realize is that 2K doesn't even need drive letters
> at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.

Now THAT IS a scary thought! :(  Most of the programs I use _must_, I
repeat, MUST have a file path that does not change. That is certainly
the case with programs; that is absoLUTely the case when linking to
graphics stored on my G:\ "Graphics" drive. If you don't think it would
be a nightmare to have these drive letters assigned arbitrarily,
consider having to manually go in and change the drive paths for
thousands of files. Yes, there are utilities that can do this in the
Registry -- and now you know WHY these utilities were created in the
first place ;)  -- but that is just ludicrous. Microsoft should not
meddle with my drive letters once assigned (whether through hardware or
software) PERIOD. There is nothing more frightening to me than your
comment that "W2K doesn't even need drive letters at all . . ."

Angel
July 18, 2005 3:22:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

boot device set to '0' SCSI ID?

"CURIOUS ANGEL" <byte.this@usa.net> wrote in message
news:11dnq8kt4bqi48@corp.supernews.com...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>
> > SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and
> firewire now.
>
> Perhaps, but the P6DGU motherboard is the one I have. And no. I'm not
> purchasing a new one. :) 
>
> >>1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
> >
> > That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable,
it
> > doesn't apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a
> letter.
>
> "they" is . . . the HDD position on the cable? . . . the cable being
> disconnected? . . . the drive letter?
>
> > Doesn't happen if they aren't present during the 2K install.
>
> Unfortunately it does. These drives are being rearranged ((AFTER)) the
> computer has been fully assembled.
>
> > Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesn't change the
> > letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.
>
> If you read my post carefully that was the one exception I noted that
> DID work. No, this problem is happening with the IDE DVD±R/RW drive
> first used to install M2K. W2K appears to be collecting a footprint of
> the original install . . . and stubbornly defaulting back to that first
> footprint regardless of what I do. I mercifully have NO grief from my
> SCSI C:\ boot drive, presumably because I've restrained Microsoft at the
> BIOS level to boot to -->SCSI, whether it likes it or not.
>
> >>Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way
> that my
> >>layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
> >>be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
> >>Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
> >
> > Nope.
>
> Check.
>
> >>How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY
> jumpered for
> >>Master and Slave?
> >
> > The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
> > You need a master and slave on each cable.
>
> Well I learn something new every day. Very helpful Rod. Thank you!
>
> >>Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives,
> especially
> >>since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
> >
> > That's got nothing to do with the drive letters.
>
> Check.
>
> >>Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
> >>suggestions as to which two?
> >
> > They don't really like optical drives much.
>
> Hmm.
>
> >>Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
> >
> > Not relevant to drive letters.
>
> Let me pause here a moment, and forgive me if this sounds stupid (I'm
> learning and we all have to start somewhere lol). Okay, the whole
> "Master / Slave" thing: Does that have _anything_ whatsoever to do with
> DRIVE PRECEDENCE? In other words, can you manipulate the "seek" order
> of the drives by their physical position on the cable?
>
> >>Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive
> letters?
> >
> > Wont work.
>
> Well that we can agree on at least lol.
>
> >>Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first
> set up W2K
> >>and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that
> it will
> >>STICK?
> >
> > Just use the disk management to change the letter.
>
> . . . which does not stick.
>
> > The other thing to realize is that 2K doesn't even need drive letters
> > at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.
>
> Now THAT IS a scary thought! :(  Most of the programs I use _must_, I
> repeat, MUST have a file path that does not change. That is certainly
> the case with programs; that is absoLUTely the case when linking to
> graphics stored on my G:\ "Graphics" drive. If you don't think it would
> be a nightmare to have these drive letters assigned arbitrarily,
> consider having to manually go in and change the drive paths for
> thousands of files. Yes, there are utilities that can do this in the
> Registry -- and now you know WHY these utilities were created in the
> first place ;)  -- but that is just ludicrous. Microsoft should not
> meddle with my drive letters once assigned (whether through hardware or
> software) PERIOD. There is nothing more frightening to me than your
> comment that "W2K doesn't even need drive letters at all . . ."
>
> Angel
July 18, 2005 6:42:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> =====================================
> 4. W2K \ DEVICE MANAGER
> . . . . . . Uninstall DVD±R/RW drive (D:\)
> Power down
> =====================================

Why uninstall?
Just change letter to R: or so.



> 5. POWER OFF
> UNCABLE:
> . . . . . . D:\ DVD±R/RW
> CABLE
> . . . . . . D:\ IDE 2 GB HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports IDE 2 GB HDD as D:\
> Good.

So you had 2GB disk formatted already?
That might complicate things later....

> 8. POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . G:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as G:\
> Good.

Same as above.

> =====================================
> 9. POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . H:\ DVD±R/RW
> Power Up
> W2K reports DVD±R/RW DRIVE as . . .
>
> D:\

Because it remembered it as D:

> And here is precisely where it begins manipulating my drive letters.
> So I . . .
> =====================================
> 10. W2K \ ADMINISTRATOR TOOLS
> . . . . . . Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
> . . . . . . RESET the drives to be what I want their letters to be
> Reboot . . .
>
> And invariably, perhaps not on the first reboot, but 2 or 5 or 10
> reboots later — at some point ((AFTER)) I have corrected these
> REconfigured drive letters through Disk Management — H:\ reclaims D:\ .
> . . and I go through this all over again.

Because you did't manage drive letters properly from beginning.

> This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those
> drive letters once and for damned all. I don't care how I do it, I just
> need to DO IT.

Learn how MS W2K "Mount Manager" works.

Manage keys in:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]
manually, if you want to control Mount Manager behavior.

Find out which GUID belongs to which volume and assign key
\DosDevices\\<letter>:
accordingly to your desire.

> I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup,
> reassign them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they
> will NOT stick.

They would, if drives had no volumes/partitons at the time of W2K setup.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 6:42:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter wrote:

> So you had the 2 GB disk formatted already?
> That might complicate things later....

It's, er, something of a blur Peter (the formats and reformats I did, I
mean). I can't reliably tell you who was coming and who was going to be
perfectly frank. Okay, if I remember this correctly . . . this was way
back at my first reinstall attempt. In fact, let me pause here to explain:

What prompted all of this was a massive virus infection. I was so
paranoid that it had crept into the MBS (not to mention onto my other
HDDs) I contacted both IBM/Hitachi and Seagate to ask them how I could
cream those HDDs to the point that NO virii could survive, and they
(each) advised a low-level format. To be on the safe side, I L-LF'd
every one of the HDDs. Now here is where it gets confusing: I can't
recall if I did all 4 of them >>while in W2K Setup, or . . . later
through Disk Management. All I know is that _every_ and I do mean EVERY
install attempt I performed, I commenced by doing a low-level format of
all four of the drives FIRST. This may appear to be overkill, but my
goal all along was (and remains) a ***squeaky-clean*** install.

In fact, when I first sat down to compose my lead post for this thread,
I had the whole sordid story of what brought me to the point of being
infected appear BEFORE the system stats and request for help. I decided
that I didn't want to scare people off from reading (what remains) the
core of the thread -- this drive letter issue -- by suffering you all to
wade through the soap opera that precipitated it lol. :)  If you're so
inclined, and don't mind a spot of reading, I'll post it in a follow-up.
Just ask.

>>This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those
>>drive letters once and for damned all. I don't care how I do it, I just
>>need to DO IT.
>
> Learn how MS W2K "Mount Manager" works.
>
> Manage keys in:
> [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]
> manually, if you want to control Mount Manager behavior.
>
> Find out which GUID belongs to which volume and assign key
> \DosDevices\\<letter>:
> accordingly to your desire.

Well hell yeah. <picks up her 6-LB. Resource Kit, and searching the
index finds . . .>
Mount parameters, Page 1168
Mount points (see Volume Mount Points)
Mounted Media State, Removable Storage, Page 785
Mountvol tool, Page 774

No "Mount Manager" ?

>>I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup,
>>reassign them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they
>>will NOT stick.
>
> They would, if drives had no volumes/partitions at the time of W2K setup.

Okay. Okay so there's definitely something happening during Setup
relative to my formatting the other drives >>at that time (?). I should
_not_ do so? I should leave them low-level formatted and NTFS through
Disk Management? Or something else?

Heavy. Thanks Peter.

Angel
July 18, 2005 8:17:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"CURIOUS ANGEL" <byte.this@usa.net> wrote in message
news:11do2k999kqg247@corp.supernews.com...
> Peter wrote:
>
> > So you had the 2 GB disk formatted already?
> > That might complicate things later....
>
> It's, er, something of a blur Peter (the formats and reformats I did, I
> mean). I can't reliably tell you who was coming and who was going to be
> perfectly frank. Okay, if I remember this correctly . . . this was way
> back at my first reinstall attempt. In fact, let me pause here to
explain:
>
> What prompted all of this was a massive virus infection. I was so
> paranoid that it had crept into the MBS (not to mention onto my other
> HDDs) I contacted both IBM/Hitachi and Seagate to ask them how I could
> cream those HDDs to the point that NO virii could survive, and they
> (each) advised a low-level format. To be on the safe side, I L-LF'd
> every one of the HDDs. Now here is where it gets confusing: I can't
> recall if I did all 4 of them >>while in W2K Setup, or . . . later
> through Disk Management. All I know is that _every_ and I do mean EVERY
> install attempt I performed, I commenced by doing a low-level format of
> all four of the drives FIRST. This may appear to be overkill, but my
> goal all along was (and remains) a ***squeaky-clean*** install.
>
> In fact, when I first sat down to compose my lead post for this thread,
> I had the whole sordid story of what brought me to the point of being
> infected appear BEFORE the system stats and request for help. I decided
> that I didn't want to scare people off from reading (what remains) the
> core of the thread -- this drive letter issue -- by suffering you all to
> wade through the soap opera that precipitated it lol. :)  If you're so
> inclined, and don't mind a spot of reading, I'll post it in a follow-up.
> Just ask.
>
> >>This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those
> >>drive letters once and for damned all. I don't care how I do it, I
just
> >>need to DO IT.
> >
> > Learn how MS W2K "Mount Manager" works.
> >
> > Manage keys in:
> > [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]
> > manually, if you want to control Mount Manager behavior.
> >
> > Find out which GUID belongs to which volume and assign key
> > \DosDevices\\<letter>:
> > accordingly to your desire.
>
> Well hell yeah. <picks up her 6-LB. Resource Kit, and searching the
> index finds . . .>
> Mount parameters, Page 1168
> Mount points (see Volume Mount Points)
> Mounted Media State, Removable Storage, Page 785
> Mountvol tool, Page 774
>
> No "Mount Manager" ?

Must be a "wrong" book ;-)
Do you Google?
or:
http://search.microsoft.com/search/results.aspx?view=en...
or:
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm

> >>I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup,
> >>reassign them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they
> >>will NOT stick.
> >
> > They would, if drives had no volumes/partitions at the time of W2K
setup.
>
> Okay. Okay so there's definitely something happening during Setup
> relative to my formatting the other drives >>at that time (?). I should
> _not_ do so? I should leave them low-level formatted and NTFS through
> Disk Management?

That's what I do.

But the key to success is to keep adding/attaching new devices without
removing/rearranging already configured ones.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 8:17:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

GAG! Well. No wonder I didn't find "Mount Manager" anywhere in my
Resource Kit. Someone's produced a PDF--
5 MB
2004-07-15
http://www.esm-software.nl/documentation/Storagecentral...
--217 PAGES LONG!

And from Microsoft . . .
HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048

So, 3 years later when I'm done reading the guide (juuuust kidding ;)  . . .

Alright. Peter.
Let's take it from the top.
Here's what I'm gonna do.
Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives
2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE
3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
4. Reassign DVD±R/RW drive to . . . T:\
5. Power down
6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
7. NTSF D:\, power down
8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down
9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
10. NTSF F:\, power down
11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
12. NTSF G:\, power down, boot
In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down
14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 9:04:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3k0ej3Fs0bkvU1@individual.net
> CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
>
> > MY COMPUTER is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE
> > barrier and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.
>
> SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and firewire now.

Wotanidiot.

>
> > I use it in my graphics-intensive home-based work. Notwithstanding the
> > characteristics of its motherboard and OS, it is a STANDALONE (I have no need
> > of passwords, since I'm the only one who ever uses it). I label the computer
> > “P6DGU” (the model of its Supermicro motherboard) and here are the relevant
> > stats + the intended drive layout:
>
> > SCSI PIII (2000 MHz)
> > 2 GB RAM
> > AMI BIOS
> > 6-BAY TOWER
> > WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL
> > PROMISE IDE CONTROLLER
>
> > A:\……FLOPPY
> > C:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“MICROSOFT”………………(18 GB) IBM
> > Ultrastar DDYS-T18350N
> > D:\……IDE …… [[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“DOWNLOAD”………………(2 GB) Maxtor
> > 72004 AP E:\……IDE…………………ZIP-DISK………“EJECT”………………… (100 MB) Iomega
> > F:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]…… “FILES” ………………………(181 GB) Seagate
> > ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> > G:\……SCSI……[[[[[[[[[[HDD]]]]]]]]]]……“GRAPHICS”…………………(181 GB) Seagate
> > ST1181677LCV ULTRA 160
> > H:\……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> > I:\ ……IDE………………DVD±R/RW………“_______________”……(16X) NEC ND-3520A
> > J:\……IDE………………CD-ROM…………“(CABLED AUDIO)”………(4X) SONY
> > K:\……IDE………………CD-R/RW ………“(RE-WRITEABLE)”………(24X) TDK Velo
> >
> > ===================================================================
> > STRATEGIES FOR RESTRAINING MICROSOFT FROM MANIPULATING DRIVE LETTER
> > ASSIGNMENTS
>
> 2K doesnt do that much.
>
> > Weeks ago I ran into major grief by connecting/unconnecting drives
> > whose drive letter assignments had been manipulated either during
> > WINDOWS 2000 PROFESSIONAL Setup or after. I want to understand what steps I
> > can take to prevent a reoccurrence of the nightmare I ran into with my ATAPI
> > drives, in particular. I know of two ways I can control IDE drive
> > assignments:
> > 1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish
>
> That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable,

Nope.
Only when there are 2 devices on the cable and they are interchanged.

> it doesnt apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a letter.

Only if they are recognized by an earlier name.

>
> > 2.) Modify drive letters from within W2K using
> > Control Panel \ Administrator Tools \ Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
>
> > The conflict with Option 1 arises from my need to install W2K from a
> > CD drive: I have yet to figure out how to successfully back out of an
> > install using one of my CD drives ->and have it STICK. I can't tell
> > you how many times I had all but
> > ……………A:\……FLOPPY
> > ……………C:\……SCSI HDD
> > ……………D:\……IDE DVD±R/RW
> > connected, whereupon 4 reboots (and drive connects) later what was in the
> > queue to be H:\ (the IDE DVD±R/RW drive first used to install W2K's CD Setup)
> > reclaimed the ghost of its prior D:\ . . . and sent the whole architecture of
> > my drive layout to hell in a handbasket.
>
> The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the
> drive you are installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are
> installing it from for the install and then add the rest of the
> drives back in after the install has completed.

That's silly.

>
> > Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
> > assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
> > option was WORSE: I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
> > with changing my drive assignments. One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then my IDE
> > Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the picture>.
>
> Doesnt happen if they arent present during the 2K install.

That is what the OP did.

>
> > (put me through option 2 again and I'll just give up and shoot myself lol)
>
> > Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I ever
> > wanted it to be was my C drive. When I asked myself why that was, I realized
> > that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level:
>
> Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesnt change the
> letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.
>
> > ……………C: is jumpered to be SCSI "Device 1" (not 0, and I hope THAT isn't an issue)
> > ……………"Device 1" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through the onboard SCSI utility
> > ……………"SCSI" is what I configured to boot to, and then saved, through AMI BIOS
>
> > ===================================================================
> > MY QUESTIONS:
>
> > Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way that my
> > layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will
> > be FORCED, at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old
> > Sony 4X . . . E:\ as my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?
>
> Nope.
>
> > How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered for
> > Master and Slave?
>
> The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
> You need a master and slave on each cable.
>
> > Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives, especially
> > since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?
>
> Thats got nothing to do with the drive letters.
>
> > Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
> > suggestions as to which two?
>
> They dont really like optical drives much.
>
> > Anything special I should do as to the cabling?
>
> Not relevant to drive letters.

It does to the initial assingning of drive letters

>
> > Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive letters?
>
> Wont work.

Indeed not if a drive has been connected earlier.

>
> > Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first set up W2K
> > and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that it will
> > STICK?
>
> Just use the disk management to change the letter.
>
> The other thing to realise is that 2K doesnt even need drive letters
> at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.
>
> Thats not true of all software tho.
July 18, 2005 11:54:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

And from Microsoft . . .
> HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048

Yes, that one is not bad.

"All assigned drive letters are "persistent" after they are assigned. This
means they should remain assigned to that volume until it is either deleted
or changed manually using Disk Management. This should hold true for all
online volumes as you add and remove disks to the system.

The exception to this rule is that if a volume (disk) is offline, and a
different new volume comes online, it may get the offline volume's drive
letter. To ensure you keep your drive letter assignments intact, you must
keep existing volumes online when introducing new volumes."


> Alright. Peter.
> Let's take it from the top.
> Here's what I'm gonna do.
> Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives

{How you do that, BTW?}
Power off

> 2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE

I would connect everything as for final configuration.
Power on with W2K Pro in a bootable DVD drive.
Check BIOS config to ensure correct boot order.

> 3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD

Install W2K, then SP4

> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 4. Reassign boot DVD±R/RW drive to . . . H:\

That is important.
Reassign other optical drives to I: J: K:

> 5. Power down

No need

> 6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot

No need
But install drivers for ZIP drive
Power down/up
W2K Disk Manager assign E: to ZIP drive

> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 7. NTSF D:\,

No need to power down

> 8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down

That's already done, no need to power down

> 9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot

No need

> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 10. NTSF F:\,

No need to power down

> 11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot

No need

> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 12. NTSF G:\,

No need to power down

> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down

It is H: already, no need reassign or power down

> 14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
> 15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
> 16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down

Those are already done.

That should work, unless some mass storage drivers are introduced
too late in above process (just speculating...)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 18, 2005 11:54:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter wrote:

>>1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives
>
> {How do you do that, BTW?}

Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
SCSI utility).

Two HDD mfg.s confirmed independently that "no virii can survive a
low-level format. none. period." (I'm sure someone will come along
and tell me the one exception to that rule lol)

I'm leaning toward the CABLE/REBOOT approach, but . . . I'm going to
read a bit of that monster PDF first.

Thanks Peter.

Angel
July 19, 2005 1:55:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> > {How do you do that, BTW?}
>
> Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
> manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
> SCSI utility).

That fine for SCSI drives.

>
> Two HDD mfg.s confirmed independently that "no virii can survive a
> low-level format. none. period." (I'm sure someone will come along
> and tell me the one exception to that rule lol)
>
> I'm leaning toward the CABLE/REBOOT approach, but . . . I'm going to
> read a bit of that monster PDF first.

There is nothing interesting in that PDF, at least from your original
problem perspective.

And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the beginning.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 8:33:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote

> (Everyone) when I refer to "backing out" of the DVD±R/RW IDE D:\
> drive I am referring to uncabling it after it has been used to install W2K
> from the Setup CD . . . in order to "back it back in"
> 4-drive installs later as H:\

> Rod Speed wrote:

>> The main trick is to physically disconnect everything but the drive you are
>> installing 2K on and the cdrom drive you are installing it from for the
>> install and then add the rest of the drives back in after the install has
>> completed.

> Hi Rod, first thank you so much for the reply.

> The "main trick" you refer to was precisely what I did in Option 1.

OK, you didnt say that very clearly at all.

> I can't stress this enough: W2K >>reassigned my drive letters (((AFTER))) I
> had all of the drives set up.

Dont believe that. You must have stuffed up the addition
of the extra drives after the install had completed.

> Here are the precise steps I went through in Option 1:

> =====================================
> 1. POWER OFF
> CABLE
> . . . . . . A:\ FLOPPY
> . . . . . . C:\ SCSI HDD
> . . . . . . D:\ (one of my) DVD±R/RW
> Nothing else connected
> Power Up
> =====================================
> 2. BIOS
> . . . . . . Confirm SCSI ID "1" is set to boot
> . . . . . . Confirm AMI BIOS boot order:
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . FLOPPY
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SCSI
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ATAPI
> . . . . . . W2K Setup CD launches on D:\
> . . . . . . NTFS format C:\
> . . . . . . Install W2K
> Reboot as prompted
> =====================================
> 3. W2K \ RUN
> Install from the files I burned to a CD
> . . . . . . Service Pack 4
> . . . . . . Rollup 1
> . . . . . . Explorer 6.0
> . . . . . . Patches
> Reboot as prompted
> =====================================
> 4. W2K \ DEVICE MANAGER
> . . . . . . Uninstall DVD±R/RW drive (D:\)
> Power down
> =====================================
> 5. POWER OFF
> UNCABLE:
> . . . . . . D:\ DVD±R/RW

That's where you stuffed it up. You should have just reassigned
the letter to what you wanted it to be, say R etc.

> CABLE
> . . . . . . D:\ IDE 2 GB HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports IDE 2 GB HDD as D:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 6. POWER OFF
> CABLE
> . . . . . . E:\ 100 MB ZIP DRIVE
> Power Up
> W2K reports IOMEGA ZIP DRIVE as E:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 7. POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . F:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as F:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 8. POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . G:\ 181 GB SCSI HDD
> Power Up
> W2K reports 181 GB SCSI HDD as G:\
> Good.
> =====================================
> 9. POWER OFF
> CABLE:
> . . . . . . H:\ DVD±R/RW
> Power Up
> W2K reports DVD±R/RW DRIVE as . . .
>
> D:\
> And here is precisely where it begins manipulating my drive letters.

Thats where you stuffed it up. If you had assigned it the letter R
say in step 4, and left it connected, that wouldnt have happened.

> So I . . .
> =====================================
> 10. W2K \ ADMINISTRATOR TOOLS
> . . . . . . Computer Management \ DISK MANAGEMENT
> . . . . . . RESET the drives to be what I want their letters to be
> Reboot . . .

> And invariably, perhaps not on the first reboot, but 2 or 5 or 10
> reboots later — at some point ((AFTER)) I have corrected these
> REconfigured drive letters through Disk Management — H:\ reclaims D:\
> . . . and I go through this all over again.

> This is why I was asking for a bulletproof method to lock down those drive
> letters once and for damned all. I don't care how I do it, I just need to DO
> IT.

See above.

> I can have all of them cabled at once, during the initial W2K Setup, reassign
> them to their correct sequence in Disk Management, and they will NOT stick.

> I can CABLE/REBOOT, CABLE/REBOOT (as I've just described in steps 1-10, above)
> and I might get those drive letters to hang around for awhile . . . but sure
> as shootin' W2K will mess with them somewhere down the line.

It wont if you do it the way I explained.

> Now I had one other thought which is crude, and I'd hate to have to resort to
> it but I will if necessary:

> I know how to generate the four W2K-Setup Boot floppies. I cannot
> comprehend how W2K could be installed _in fact_ off of the equivalent
> of less than 6 MB worth of data, but . . . could this be done?

Yes, but there is no point in going that route.

> Some kind of "shell" of W2K that would allow me to install my DVD±R/RW IDE
> drive 5 drives down the "foodchain" as H:\?

You just have to assign it the letter H in step 4 and dont remove it.

> Or would I butcher things miserably (or is this a moot point since a
> shell install of W2K isn't even possible off of the 4-floppy setup set)?

There is no such animal as a 'shell install' anyway.

> I'll reply to your other comments in a subsequent post. Thank you again Rod!

No problem.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 8:33:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod, while I'm printing this, take a look at the reply I gave Peter. I
think I tried this "stuffed it up" fix already, if I'm reading your post
correctly.

I can't thank you enough -- all of you -- for being patient with me
while I troubleshoot this. I don't doubt I'm doing something wrong, I
just am trying to figure out what the hell it is . . .

Angel
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 8:54:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote

>>> MY COMPUTER is SCSI for the express purpose of being able to break the IDE
>>> barrier and add multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.

>> SCSI has passed its useby date for that, its done with USB and firewire now.

> Perhaps,

No perhaps about it. And there is no 'IDE barrier', since
IDE drives are much bigger than the available SCSI drives.

> but the P6DGU motherboard is the one I have. And no. I'm not purchasing a
> new one. :) 

No need to, just add USB and firewire
multiple gadgets and gewgaws in the future.

You cant even buy most of them in SCSI format anymore.

>>> 1.) Physically cable one drive-per-W2K-reboot, in the order I wish

>> That only applys with the initial location of the drive on the cable, it
>> doesn't apply when they are moved after the initial allocation of a letter.

> "they" is . . . the HDD position on the cable? . . .

Yes.

> the cable being disconnected? . . . the drive letter?

Nope.

>>> Like it's Evil Twin, Option 2 likewise manipulated my drive letter
>>> assignments through Control Panel - but if anything, the Control Panel
>>> option was WORSE: I was flabbergasted at the liberties Microsoft took
>>> with changing my drive assignments. One boot my Zip Drive was E. Then my
>>> IDE Maxtor HDD would get E . . . and Zip became <snip, you get the picture>.

>> Doesn't happen if they aren't present during the 2K install.

> Unfortunately it does. These drives are being rearranged ((AFTER)) the
> computer has been fully assembled.

Only because you confused it by temporarily removing the DVDRW drive.

>>> Indeed, the only drive that ever stayed put and remained the ONE thing I
>>> ever
>>> wanted it to be was my C drive. When I asked myself why that was, I
>>> realized
>>> that it was because I had effectively restrained Microsoft at the BIOS
>>> level:

>> Nope, its just how the OS does things, it doesn't change the
>> letter of the boot drive at all from what it used first in the install.

> If you read my post carefully that was the one exception I noted that DID
> work.

That particular comment isnt even comprehensible.

> No, this problem is happening with the IDE DVD±R/RW drive
> first used to install M2K. W2K appears to be collecting a footprint
> of the original install . . . and stubbornly defaulting back to that
> first footprint regardless of what I do.

You didnt try reassigning the letter the DVDRW got
during the install in step 4. That will certainly work.

And that comment above was in reference to your comment
about constraining what MS does by what you did in the bios.
You didnt, 2K just doesnt reassign the boot drive letter. It isnt
even that easy to change it if you want to change it later.

> I mercifully have NO grief from my SCSI C:\ boot drive, presumably because
> I've restrained Microsoft at the BIOS level to boot to -->SCSI, whether it
> likes it or not.

See just above.

>>> Can I somehow set the Master/Slave settings in AMI BIOS in such a way that
>>> my layout (above) will not only be honored . . . Microsoft will be FORCED,
>>> at BIOS level, to recognize (for example) J:\ as my old Sony 4X . . . E:\ as
>>> my EJECT Zip Disk drive . . . K:\ as my TDK etc.?

>> Nope.

> Check.

>>> How do I jumper the 2 CD drives when my DVD drives are ALREADY jumpered for
>>> Master and Slave?

>> The master and slave jumpering applys to a single cable.
>> You need a master and slave on each cable.

> Well I learn something new every day. Very helpful Rod. Thank you!

>>> Come to that — how should I be jumpering ANY of the IDE drives,
>>> especially since my 2 GB HDD is slated to be Drive D:\ ?

>> That's got nothing to do with the drive letters.

> Check.

>>> Two (of the 6) IDE devices will need to go on that Promise card - any
>>> suggestions as to which two?

>> They don't really like optical drives much.

> Hmm.

>>> Anything special I should do as to the cabling?

>> Not relevant to drive letters.

> Let me pause here a moment, and forgive me if this sounds stupid (I'm learning
> and we all have to start somewhere lol). Okay, the whole
> "Master / Slave" thing: Does that have _anything_ whatsoever to do
> with DRIVE PRECEDENCE? In other words, can you manipulate the "seek" order of
> the drives by their physical position on the cable?

Nope. The drive that gets the command to seek first will do that first.

>>> Should I still resort to CABLE/BOOT, CABLE/BOOT to force the drive letters?

>> Wont work.

> Well that we can agree on at least lol.

>>> Then . . . how do I safely back out of the DVD drive used to first set up
>>> W2K and place it 4 drives down the hierarchy LATER in such a manner that it
>>> will STICK?

>> Just use the disk management to change the letter.

> . . . which does not stick.

Yes it does if you change the letter then DVDRW got during the
install in step 4 and dont remove it while adding the extra drives.

>> The other thing to realize is that 2K doesn't even need drive letters
>> at all. You may well be getting obsessed about nothing much at all.

> Now THAT IS a scary thought! :(  Most of the programs I use _must_, I repeat,
> MUST have a file path that does not change. That is certainly
> the case with programs; that is absoLUTely the case when linking to
> graphics stored on my G:\ "Graphics" drive. If you don't think it
> would be a nightmare to have these drive letters assigned arbitrarily,

I didnt say anything about arbitrarily, I JUST said that you
dont need to use drive letters at all, just use a fully qualified
path name using the drive name instead of a letter.

> consider having to manually go in and change the drive paths for
> thousands of files. Yes, there are utilities that can do this in the
> Registry -- and now you know WHY these utilities were created in the first
> place ;)  -- but that is just ludicrous. Microsoft should not
> meddle with my drive letters once assigned (whether through hardware
> or software) PERIOD. There is nothing more frightening to me than
> your comment that "W2K doesn't even need drive letters at all . . ."

You're confused, I wasnt talking about changing drive letters,
just saying that drive letters arent even needed at all, you can
identify the drive by its name instead of a letter.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 8:54:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:

> You're confused, I wasn't talking about changing drive letters,
> just saying that drive letters arent even needed at all, you can
> identify the drive by its name instead of a letter.

Check!
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 12:55:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote:
> GAG! Well. No wonder I didn't find "Mount Manager" anywhere in my
> Resource Kit. Someone's produced a PDF--
> 5 MB
> 2004-07-15
> http://www.esm-software.nl/documentation/Storagecentral...
> --217 PAGES LONG!
>
> And from Microsoft . . .
> HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048
>
> So, 3 years later when I'm done reading the guide (juuuust kidding ;) 
> . . .
> Alright. Peter.
> Let's take it from the top.
> Here's what I'm gonna do.
> Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.

Just do each one after its been seen by XP after its been added.

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives
> 2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE
> 3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 4. Reassign DVD±R/RW drive to . . . T:\
> 5. Power down
> 6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 7. NTSF D:\, power down
> 8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down
> 9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 10. NTSF F:\, power down
> 11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 12. NTSF G:\, power down, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down
> 14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
> 15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
> 16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 12:55:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:

> Just do each one after its been seen by XP after its been added.

(it's Windows 2000 Professional btw, no big deal, the thread is long but
I don't want anyone reading it to be confused) . . .

Okay Rod,

I just want verification that the PRECISE sequence I listed above is
what I should try? I'm not trying to beat the issue to death; but
obviously I haven't been doing (the infamous) "something" correctly up
to now and even one mistake could blow this whole reinstall.

A simple Yes? I have these steps in the correct sequence?

Angel
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 2:11:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> Just do each one after its been seen by XP after its been added.

> (it's Windows 2000 Professional btw, no big deal, the thread is long but I
> don't want anyone reading it to be confused) . . .

> Okay Rod,

> I just want verification that the PRECISE sequence I listed above is what I
> should try?

Yes, I should have said that more strongly.

> I'm not trying to beat the issue to death; but obviously I haven't been doing
> (the infamous) "something" correctly up
> to now and even one mistake could blow this whole reinstall.

> A simple Yes? I have these steps in the correct sequence?

Yes.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 2:11:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:

> Yes, I should have said that more strongly.
>
> Yes.

A double yes is good enough for me. Thanks so much Rod.

Launch will probably be in a couple of days, because I want to read a
bit of that PDF and . . . I'm nervous lol. Well, what the hell. Every
crash is a learning experience, eh?

Angel

(my poor long-suffering drives lol)
July 19, 2005 5:49:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

In article <11do8uri2ihc195@corp.supernews.com>, byte.this@usa.net
says...
> GAG! Well. No wonder I didn't find "Mount Manager" anywhere in my
> Resource Kit. Someone's produced a PDF--
> 5 MB
> 2004-07-15
> http://www.esm-software.nl/documentation/Storagecentral...
> --217 PAGES LONG!
>
> And from Microsoft . . .
> HOW WINDOWS 2000 ASSIGNS, RESERVES, AND STORES DRIVE LETTERS
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=234048
>
> So, 3 years later when I'm done reading the guide (juuuust kidding ;)  . . .
>
> Alright. Peter.
> Let's take it from the top.
> Here's what I'm gonna do.
> Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives
> 2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE
> 3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 4. Reassign DVD±R/RW drive to . . . T:\
> 5. Power down

Well I would reboot here just to make sure DVD is on drive T before
continuing. Then I would power down and continue with step 6

> 6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 7. NTSF D:\, power down
> 8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down
> 9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 10. NTSF F:\, power down
> 11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 12. NTSF G:\, power down, boot
> In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
> 13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down

Same here.

> 14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
> 15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
> 16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>

In fact perhaps it may be best to do that in all situations where you
add a new device and then reassign its letter. Just to make sure that
device is sticking.

--
Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 6:30:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Peter wrote:

>{How do you do that, BTW?}
>
>>Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
>>manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
>>SCSI utility).
>
> That's fine for SCSI drives.

Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
format IDE drives, as well? You don't need to have SCSI drives to be
able to scrub them squeaky clean; and in a world of increasing viral
attacks, people should educate themselves on this issue. For whatever
reason, periodically it is just a good idea to scrub your drives. As I
mentioned previously, NO virus, worm, trojan, or other nasty can survive
a Low-Level format. The Low-Level format takes your hard drive down to
the condition it was in when it left the factory (this, from IBM and
Seagate technicians, independent of one another). From the Maxtor PDF:

LOW LEVEL FORMAT, Quick or Full Test:
!! Warning!! These tests are data destructive, all user information on
the hard drive is removed. Maxtor recommends you backup all critical
data and remove other hard drives before performing this test. Perform
this test only if all other tests have passed (or by direction of Maxtor
Technical Support) but the hard drive is still not performing correctly.
.. . . The full LLF overwrites a pattern of zeros to all sectors on the
drive. High capacity hard drives take longer to complete. Allow
sufficient time to complete the test. Several hours to overnight may be
needed. A full Low Level Format remains the most effective test for a
drive with intermittent problems.

Every hard drive manufacturer has their own little utility; they are a
free download; they are small enough to fit on floppy(ies); and they run
as a BOOT option, SEPARATE from Windows. They have (increasingly)
lovely little GUI's -- these aren't ugly black-screen DOS command-line
utilities, but full-color little programs, mouse enabled, VERY user
friendly, and usually with extensive Help. They offer a Quick LLF or a
Full LLF. ALWAYS do the Full LLF, since virii can infect your MBS
(Master Boot Sector), and a Quick LLF will not reach that far back. I
can't emphasize enough how important this is. My 181 GB Seagate Full
LLFs in about 4 hours.

These little programs are also, uh, smart heh heh: They sniff your
drives and can frequently tell if you're using their utility on someone
ELSE's brand; so be prepared to hunt down the one specific to your mfg
if you don't want to invite an automatic reboot.

Although I have three different brands of hard drives in my P6DGU, I
_hugely_ prefer both the GUI and the reliability of the IBM / HITACHI
utility, called Drive Fitness Test. Both Maxtor and Seagate have
Caldera-based utilities and are neither as reliable (Powermax),
forgiving (Seagate), or features rich. Here are some links. I highly
recommend you burn their ISO version to a CD for a much more pleasant
experience.
___________________________________________________
For **ANY** HARD DRIVE (not just IBM / HITACHI) I highly recommend you use
DRIVE FITNESS TEST \ Erase Disk
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm
___________________________________________________
If you want to use SEAGATE's utility, be prepared to have at least _1_
SEAGATE drive cabled or you Do Not Pass Go, you Do Not Collect $200, and
you Do Not even get to launch the program. You'll say in a DOS screen
with a rude instruction to CNTL+ALT+DEL and no further explanation. If
you are permitted to access the program, you'll find a lovely interface;
but . . . meh. I still prefer IBM's DFT and 16 colors is good 'nuff for
me.
DISCWIZARD
http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/drivers/discwiz.htm...
___________________________________________________
MAXTOR has two utilities. The basic one is called MaxBlast, and I
haven't tested it because I used the ISO Powermax version. I have never
gotten this utility to work, not once. Not only is the interface ugly,
a 90-second test HANGS, and there is a paucity of data. Perhaps
MaxBlast works better.
POWERMAX \ Low Level Format
http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/downloads/powermax.htm
http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/downloads/maxblast3.ht...
___________________________________________________
And lastly, Ultimate Boot CD also has a nice portal (typically
maintained and up-to-date) on HDD mfg utility links at
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com

> There is nothing interesting in that PDF, at least from your original
> problem perspective.

My toner cartridge thanks you Peter lol. ;) 
(my eyes, too)

> And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the beginning.

I see.
I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,
and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only because neither
option worked previously ANYWAY. Well, if neither option worked
previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as much of a chance at
success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option; and if I don't try it now, I'll
never know if it would have worked.

One thing will be different this time (well, many things really, since I
am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will, as before,
low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove any ghost of a
previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have been left
from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only the
one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their
nascent low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives
from within Windows 2000.

Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who
might suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.

Angel
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 19, 2005 7:53:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Peter" <peterfoxghost@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:c5ZCe.2856$je2.361911@news20.bellglobal.com
> > > {How do you do that, BTW?}
> >
> > Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
> > manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
> > SCSI utility).
>
> That fine for SCSI drives.

As if it's not for IDE drives.

>
> >
> > Two HDD mfg.s confirmed independently that "no virii can survive a
> > low-level format. none. period." (I'm sure someone will come along
> > and tell me the one exception to that rule lol)
> >
> > I'm leaning toward the CABLE/REBOOT approach, but . . . I'm going to
> > read a bit of that monster PDF first.
>
> There is nothing interesting in that PDF, at least from your original
> problem perspective.
>
> And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the beginning.
July 19, 2005 11:51:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

> Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
> format IDE drives, as well?

OK. They are some. But last time I did low level format,
it was for 3650 Miniscribe MFM formatted as RLL, to play with
increased capacity. Never used LLF since then.
I just use OS to remove partitions, volumes etc.

> > And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the
beginning.
>
> I see.
> I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,
> and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only because neither
> option worked previously ANYWAY. Well, if neither option worked
> previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as much of a chance at
> success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option; and if I don't try it now, I'll
> never know if it would have worked.
>
> One thing will be different this time (well, many things really, since I
> am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will, as before,
> low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove any ghost of a
> previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have been left
> from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only the
> one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their
> nascent low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives
> from within Windows 2000.
>
> Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who
> might suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.

For your own benefit, after each step, keep track of keys in:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]
(you can export to file). It will help in troubleshooting.

Some people might edit \DosDevice\<letter>: key values to customize
Mount Manager manually, but I never had to do so.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 20, 2005 12:10:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"JAD" <kapasitor@earthcharter.net> wrote in message news:zTRCe.5765$LC6.2857@fe06.lga
> boot device set to '0' SCSI ID?

You braindead?

>
> "CURIOUS ANGEL" <byte.this@usa.net> wrote in message
> news:11dnq8kt4bqi48@corp.supernews.com...
> > Rod Speed wrote:

[snip]
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 20, 2005 1:51:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>
> >{How do you do that, BTW?}
> >
> >>Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
> >>manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
> >>SCSI utility).
> >
> > That's fine for SCSI drives.
>
> Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
> format IDE drives, as well?

They tend to use the term "low level format" for those things but they
don't do a "format," low level or otherwise. What they do, as the Maxtor
description you posted below explains, is "overwrite a pattern of zeros to
all sectors on the drive."

With modern drives the 'format' is done at the factory and it's not
possible to do it in the field.

> You don't need to have SCSI drives to be
> able to scrub them squeaky clean; and in a world of increasing viral
> attacks, people should educate themselves on this issue. For whatever
> reason, periodically it is just a good idea to scrub your drives. As I
> mentioned previously, NO virus, worm, trojan, or other nasty can survive
> a Low-Level format. The Low-Level format takes your hard drive down to
> the condition it was in when it left the factory (this, from IBM and
> Seagate technicians, independent of one another). From the Maxtor PDF:
>
> LOW LEVEL FORMAT, Quick or Full Test:
> !! Warning!! These tests are data destructive, all user information on
> the hard drive is removed. Maxtor recommends you backup all critical
> data and remove other hard drives before performing this test. Perform
> this test only if all other tests have passed (or by direction of Maxtor
> Technical Support) but the hard drive is still not performing correctly.
> . . . The full LLF overwrites a pattern of zeros to all sectors on the
> drive. High capacity hard drives take longer to complete. Allow
> sufficient time to complete the test. Several hours to overnight may be
> needed. A full Low Level Format remains the most effective test for a
> drive with intermittent problems.
>
> Every hard drive manufacturer has their own little utility; they are a
> free download; they are small enough to fit on floppy(ies); and they run
> as a BOOT option, SEPARATE from Windows. They have (increasingly)
> lovely little GUI's -- these aren't ugly black-screen DOS command-line
> utilities, but full-color little programs, mouse enabled, VERY user
> friendly, and usually with extensive Help. They offer a Quick LLF or a
> Full LLF. ALWAYS do the Full LLF, since virii can infect your MBS
> (Master Boot Sector), and a Quick LLF will not reach that far back. I
> can't emphasize enough how important this is. My 181 GB Seagate Full
> LLFs in about 4 hours.
>
> These little programs are also, uh, smart heh heh: They sniff your
> drives and can frequently tell if you're using their utility on someone
> ELSE's brand; so be prepared to hunt down the one specific to your mfg
> if you don't want to invite an automatic reboot.
>
> Although I have three different brands of hard drives in my P6DGU, I
> _hugely_ prefer both the GUI and the reliability of the IBM / HITACHI
> utility, called Drive Fitness Test. Both Maxtor and Seagate have
> Caldera-based utilities and are neither as reliable (Powermax),
> forgiving (Seagate), or features rich. Here are some links. I highly
> recommend you burn their ISO version to a CD for a much more pleasant
> experience.
> ___________________________________________________
> For **ANY** HARD DRIVE (not just IBM / HITACHI) I highly recommend you use
> DRIVE FITNESS TEST \ Erase Disk
> http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm
> ___________________________________________________
> If you want to use SEAGATE's utility, be prepared to have at least _1_
> SEAGATE drive cabled or you Do Not Pass Go, you Do Not Collect $200, and
> you Do Not even get to launch the program. You'll say in a DOS screen
> with a rude instruction to CNTL+ALT+DEL and no further explanation. If
> you are permitted to access the program, you'll find a lovely interface;
> but . . . meh. I still prefer IBM's DFT and 16 colors is good 'nuff for
> me.
> DISCWIZARD
> http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/drivers/discwiz.htm...
> ___________________________________________________
> MAXTOR has two utilities. The basic one is called MaxBlast, and I
> haven't tested it because I used the ISO Powermax version. I have never
> gotten this utility to work, not once. Not only is the interface ugly,
> a 90-second test HANGS, and there is a paucity of data. Perhaps
> MaxBlast works better.
> POWERMAX \ Low Level Format
> http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/downloads/powermax.htm
> http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/downloads/maxblast3.ht...
> ___________________________________________________
> And lastly, Ultimate Boot CD also has a nice portal (typically
> maintained and up-to-date) on HDD mfg utility links at
> http://www.ultimatebootcd.com
>
> > There is nothing interesting in that PDF, at least from your original
> > problem perspective.
>
> My toner cartridge thanks you Peter lol. ;) 
> (my eyes, too)
>
> > And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the
> beginning.
>
> I see.
> I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,
> and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only because neither
> option worked previously ANYWAY. Well, if neither option worked
> previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as much of a chance at
> success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option; and if I don't try it now, I'll
> never know if it would have worked.
>
> One thing will be different this time (well, many things really, since I
> am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will, as before,
> low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove any ghost of a
> previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have been left
> from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only the
> one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their
> nascent low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives
> from within Windows 2000.
>
> Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who
> might suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.
>
> Angel
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 20, 2005 11:10:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Please learn to post.

"David Maynard" <nospam@private.net> wrote in message news:11drf0oc57j1583@corp.supernews.com
> CURIOUS ANGEL wrote:
>
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> > >{How do you do that, BTW?}
> > >
> > > > Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
> > > > manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
> > > > SCSI utility).
> > >
> > > That's fine for SCSI drives.
> >
> > Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
> > format IDE drives, as well?
>
> They tend to use the term "low level format" for those things but they
> don't do a "format," low level or otherwise.

That depends on whether their drives actually do support the Format Track command.
If the drives don't then obviously 'they' don't do a Low Level Format.
If the drives do support it, it doesn't necessarily mean 'they' use it too.
And since you can't change sector size and sectors per track with IDE there will be no
real formatting taking place anyway.

> What they do, as the Maxtor description you posted below explains, is
> "overwrite a pattern of zeros to all sectors on the drive."

And what exactly do you think a Low Level Format would do differently?
Btw, that sentence doesn't even make sense when taken literally.

>
> With modern drives the 'format' is done at the factory

Has nothing to do with modern (IDE) drives.
With all drives the 'format' is done at the factory, none excluded.
You have to go back a long way to where drives came without the drive
controller and you had to low level format it depending on what controller
you were using. But even these drives were preformatted in the factory.
Still, even IDE drives allowed LLF-ing after they became obsolete and
it was actually possible to kill a drive by using the wrong parameters
or breaking off an ongoing LLF.

> and it's not possible to do it in the field.

Yes it is, except that there is no point in doing it, with the drive
already formatted and not being allowed to change sector size.
IBM/Hitachi drives do allow reformatting of LBA to Physical location
translation. SCSI drives still allow Low Level Formatting.

>
[lots of bullshit snipped]
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 20, 2005 11:11:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Folkert Rienstra wrote:
> Please learn to post.
>
> "David Maynard" <nospam@private.net> wrote in message news:11drf0oc57j1583@corp.supernews.com
>
>>CURIOUS ANGEL wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Peter wrote:
>>>
>>> >{How do you do that, BTW?}
>>> >
>>>
>>>>>Er, are you being facetious? Through the respective drive
>>>>>manufacturer's utility (or in the case of my SCSI drives, the onboard
>>>>>SCSI utility).
>>>>
>>>>That's fine for SCSI drives.
>>>
>>>Peter, I do hope you know there are utilities out there to Low-Level
>>>format IDE drives, as well?
>>
>>They tend to use the term "low level format" for those things but they
>>don't do a "format," low level or otherwise.
>
>
> That depends on whether their drives actually do support the Format Track command.

No it doesn't as writing zeroes is writing zeros regardless of what other
commands the drive may support.

> If the drives don't then obviously 'they' don't do a Low Level Format.

And they don't.

> If the drives do support it, it doesn't necessarily mean 'they' use it too.

Correct, which is why your first claim is nonsense.

Plus, they don't.

> And since you can't change sector size and sectors per track with IDE there will be no
> real formatting taking place anyway.

This, of course, is the same thing as saying they don't do formatting so
after all that gibberish you've restated what I said to begin with.

>>What they do, as the Maxtor description you posted below explains, is
>>"overwrite a pattern of zeros to all sectors on the drive."
>
> And what exactly do you think a Low Level Format would do differently?

A low level format.

> Btw, that sentence doesn't even make sense when taken literally.

It does to those familiar with English.

>>With modern drives the 'format' is done at the factory
>
>
> Has nothing to do with modern (IDE) drives.
> With all drives the 'format' is done at the factory, none excluded.

False. I've had plenty of drives that came unformatted. Of course, they
weren't modern drives.

> You have to go back a long way to where drives came without the drive
> controller and you had to low level format it depending on what controller
> you were using.

That, of course, is the meaning of (not) 'modern drives'.

> But even these drives were preformatted in the factory.

False.

> Still, even IDE drives allowed LLF-ing after they became obsolete and
> it was actually possible to kill a drive by using the wrong parameters
> or breaking off an ongoing LLF.

Not modern ones.

>>and it's not possible to do it in the field.
>
>
> Yes it is,

Shall we quote you? "And since you can't change sector size and sectors per
track with IDE there will be no real formatting taking place anyway."

> except that there is no point in doing it, with the drive
> already formatted and not being allowed to change sector size.

You can't 'change' it because you can't low level format the drive.

> IBM/Hitachi drives do allow reformatting of LBA to Physical location
> translation.

'Translation' isn't formatting.

> SCSI drives still allow Low Level Formatting.

Not on any modern SCSI drive I am aware of.
July 20, 2005 11:11:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Pierre L'Escargot" <pierre@escargot.fr.com> wrote in message
news:069b34ad15244e7a99fab9cce18bf83e@erollscom...
another useless post... nothing better to do than to mumble jibberish.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 20, 2005 12:18:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net> wrote
> Peter wrote

>> And I advise to leave cables properly attached, right from the beginning.

> I see.
> I was thinking about this last night from a purely logical perspective,

Tad radical |-)

> and have to say I'm leaning toward doing that only
> because neither option worked previously ANYWAY.

The reason the previous approaches didnt work was
JUST because you physically disconnected the DVD
drive you installed 2K from. If you just give it the letter
you want instead, you wont see drive letters changing.

> Well, if neither option worked previously, a fully-cabled Setup option has as
> much of a chance at success as a repeat-CABLE/REBOOT option;

The only advantage with the non fully cabled approach
is that you have more control over what letters drives
get if you add the extra drives back one by one.

Basically they get letters in the order they are added.

I assumed you wanted to be able to completely control
the letters the drives got, because you had scripts etc
that used specific drive letters that you wanted to carry
over to the new install. If you dont need to control which
letters drives get, and just want to ensure the letters
dont change later, the fully cabled route will be fine.

> and if I don't try it now, I'll never know if it would have worked.

Yeah, quite a bit to be said for carefully testing the
alternatives at this stage, while the drives are empty.

> One thing will be different this time (well, many things really,
> since I am armed with literature and hefty DOS utilities): I will,
> as before, low-level format all four of the drives first, to remove
> any ghost of a previous MBR, NTLDR, BOOT.INI, or anything else that may have
> been left from prior attempts; but when I run Setup, I am going to NTFS —>only
> the one IBM (18 GB) C:\ drive<— and leave the other 3 drives in their nascent
> low-level formatted state . . . to be NTFS'd as Basic drives from within
> Windows 2000.

Yeah, its generally best to do it in 2K,
some of the utes can bugger things up.

> Either way I'll report back on the system for the benefit of others who might
> suffer this same process, and want to know what my results were.

Even if you end up hanging yourself in disgust ? |-)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 20, 2005 12:18:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:

> Even if you end up hanging yourself in disgust ? |-)

LOL Rod.
Now look. Don't talk me out of it, it's taken me this long just to get
up the courage to do it again!!

I . . . I just have to know. That's all I can say. I'll never feel at
peace with this process unless I know I tried. And I really don't want
to feel intimidated by the OS. For heaven's sake, it's ridiculous.

Anyway I'm just hanging around waiting for an unrelated issue to be
answered and then (cue theme from Jaws) heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's ZERO!
heh heh

Tomorrow is D Day.
D, as in M.
(for Maxtor ;) 
July 20, 2005 2:15:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:50:16 -0700, CURIOUS ANGEL <byte.this@usa.net>
wrote:

>Alright. Peter.
>Let's take it from the top.
>Here's what I'm gonna do.
>Please insert PRECISELY where/when I NTFS the remaining 3 drives.
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>1. Low-level format all 4 of the drives
>2. Cable FLOPPY + 18 GB SCSI HDD + IDE DVD±R/RW DRIVE
>3. NTFS 18 GB through Windows 2000 Professional Setup CD
>In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
>4. Reassign DVD±R/RW drive to . . . T:\
>5. Power down
>6. Cable D:\ 2 GB IDE, boot
>In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
>7. NTSF D:\, power down
>8. Cable E:\ 100 MB ZIP IDE, boot, power down
>9. Cable F:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
>In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
>10. NTSF F:\, power down
>11. Cable G:\ 181 GB SCSI, boot
>In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
>12. NTSF G:\, power down, boot
>In Windows 2000 DISK MANAGEMENT
>13. Reassign T:\ (DVD±R/RW) to -->> H:\, power down
>14. Cable I:\ DVD±R/RW, boot, power down
>15. Cable J:\ 4X SONY CD-ROM, boot, power down
>16. Cable K:\ 24X TDK CD-R/RW, boot, power down
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You should try it with everything connected. It's easier, and gives
you a better understanding of the process.

[It's my understanding that Windows Setup will assigned a drive letter
to the IDE Zip drive, so the idea is to make it invisible to Setup by
either connecting it to the Promise controller and not install the
Promise driver during Setup, or connecting it to the secondary IDE
port and disabling the secondary IDE port via BIOS setup during
Windows Setup.]

1. Boot from the W2K CD and load the SCSI driver via F6.
2. When you get to the partition screen, no drive should have any
letter assigned to it.
3. Create a partition on the 18GB; letter C: should be assigned to the
partition.
4. Install Windows 2000 to the C: partition.
5. After Windows is installed, it should be C:, and some letters will
be assigned to the optical drives
6. Enable the secondary IDE port in the BIOS setup if necessary.
7. Install all necessary drivers for the storage device interfaces.
8. Run Disk Management; all of your storage devices should appear.
9. Change the drive letters for the optical drives and the IDE Zip
drive to what they should be.
10. Create partitions (only, DO NOT format yet) on the unpartitioned
disks in the order in which you want drive letters assigned to them.
11. Reboot and see if the drive letters are what they should be.
12. Format the partitions.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 21, 2005 3:01:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

pcbutts1 wrote:

<quoted material interspersed with random abusive and/or irrelevant
interjections snipped>

<plonk>

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
!