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CRC errors on a USB harddisk

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July 30, 2005 11:49:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Hello.
Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable USB harddisk
and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large
drives.
I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any errors on the
drive, even when I perform a surface scan. However, when I use the
drive and copy files from it to another drive, this fails with a CRC
(cyclic redundency check) error.
Does anyone know what might be causing it and how to recover from this
problem?

Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
July 31, 2005 8:08:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable
> > USB harddisk and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
>
> > I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
> > maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large drives.
>
> > I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any
> > errors on the drive, even when I perform a surface scan.
> > However, when I use the drive and copy files from it to another
> > drive, this fails with a CRC (cyclic redundency check) error.
>
> > Does anyone know what might be causing
> > it and how to recover from this problem?
>
> Try one of the other USB ports and see if that makes any difference on that.
>
> Try a different USB cable, not all are that great with USB2,
>
> > Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek

I doubt that could be the problem since the disk appeared to work ok
for a long time. Only lately when the disk starts to get relatively
full (10 gb of free space left) I encounter these problems.
July 31, 2005 12:50:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Arno Wagner wrote:
> Previously name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello.
> > Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable USB harddisk
> > and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
> > I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
> > maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large
> > drives.
> > I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any errors on the
> > drive, even when I perform a surface scan. However, when I use the
> > drive and copy files from it to another drive, this fails with a CRC
> > (cyclic redundency check) error.
> > Does anyone know what might be causing it and how to recover from this
> > problem?
>
> > Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
>
> The disk does use CRC only in the IDE interface. This is not
> a surface problem. More likely a problem with the enclosure,
> maybe too tight timing the disk cannot follow because of
> fragmented data or the like. Can you mount the disk direktly
> on an IDE interface and try this again?
>
> Arno

I bought the disk because I don't have any room to build in another
harddrive, so that isn't going to be easy.
I did use the drive internally in another computer temporarily and it
seemed to work ok. However, I did not try to fill up the drive with
files to check if there would be any problems when subsequently trying
to copy the files back to another disk.
Perhaps I'll do that to see if that works. But suppose that doesn't
give any problems, does that mean the USB enclosure is worthless?
I do notice the enclosure (which is from metal) doesn't have a fan and
tends to get quite hot.

Can diskdrives be mounted vertically as well as horizontally without
having to reformat them completely?
Related resources
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 31, 2005 3:02:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

You should look up error message in eventvwr.

Most likely the error comes from the USB driver,
which indicates problems with host controller, IDE bridge, or USB cable.

If anyone's interested, here part of the USB 1.1 spec:

4.5.1 Error Detection

The core bit error rate of the USB medium is expected to be close to that of
a backplane and any glitches
will very likely be transient in nature. To provide protection against such
transients, each packet includes
error protection fields. When data integrity is required, such as with
lossless data devices, an error
recovery procedure may be invoked in hardware or software.

The protocol includes separate CRCs for control and data fields of each packet.
A failed CRC is considered to indicate a corrupted packet.
The CRC gives 100% coverage on single- and double-bit errors.

"name" <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122778184.725857.65670@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Hello.
> Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable USB harddisk
> and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
> I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
> maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large
> drives.
> I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any errors on the
> drive, even when I perform a surface scan. However, when I use the
> drive and copy files from it to another drive, this fails with a CRC
> (cyclic redundency check) error.
> Does anyone know what might be causing it and how to recover from this
> problem?
>
> Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
>
July 31, 2005 3:53:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>
> >>> Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable
> >>> USB harddisk and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
>
> >>> I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
> >>> maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large drives.
>
> >>> I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any
> >>> errors on the drive, even when I perform a surface scan.
> >>> However, when I use the drive and copy files from it to another
> >>> drive, this fails with a CRC (cyclic redundency check) error.
>
> >>> Does anyone know what might be causing
> >>> it and how to recover from this problem?
>
> >> Try one of the other USB ports and see if that makes any difference on that.
>
> >> Try a different USB cable, not all are that great with USB2,
>
> >>> Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
>
> > I doubt that could be the problem since the
> > disk appeared to work ok for a long time.
>
> All problems show up sometime.
>
> > Only lately when the disk starts to get relatively full
> > (10 gb of free space left) I encounter these problems.
>
> OK, you should have said that in your original.

Yes, sorry for that omission.

>
> Where are you actually getting the CRC error reported, at the XP level ?

Yep, when I try to copy a file in windows explorer (or windows
commander).

>
> Guess its possible its something strange with the IDE/USB bridge in the
> box, but its hard to see why that should only be seen with little free space.
>
> Its certainly possible that a very hot drive could have problems
> with access to the highest LBA numbers of sectors, but hard to
> see why that would result in CRC errors visible at the XP level.
July 31, 2005 4:00:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
>[..]
> > I bought the disk because I don't have any room to build
> > in another harddrive, so that isn't going to be easy.
>
> > I did use the drive internally in another computer temporarily
> > and it seemed to work ok. However, I did not try to fill up the
> > drive with files to check if there would be any problems when
> > subsequently trying to copy the files back to another disk.
>
> Best to try that, tho its hard to see why it should produce CRC
> errors at the XP level unless you have described that poorly.
>
> > Perhaps I'll do that to see if that works.
>
> Yeah, I would, just because the symptoms dont really
> fit any failure mode, so more info would be useful.

I hope to try that out in a few days and will report if any problems
are encountered filling the disk up while it is installed internally
and trying to copy the contents to another disk. Although it might take
longer than that if it turns out I first need to burn a bunch of stuff
to free up the necessary diskspace.

>
> > But suppose that doesn't give any problems,
> > does that mean the USB enclosure is worthless?
>
> Still hard to say. Its possible that only seeing the effect
> with little free space is an illusion and you are actually
> just seeing the problem in the warmer weather instead,
> in which case it isnt necessarily the USB enclosure.
>
> > I do notice the enclosure (which is from metal)
> > doesn't have a fan and tends to get quite hot.
>
> So the problem might just have shown up with warmer weather.

The weather hasn't been exceptionally warm over the past few days when
I first encountered the problem. I also tried letting the disk cool
down by turning it off for a while and that didn't make any difference.

>
> > Can diskdrives be mounted vertically as well as horizontally
> > without having to reformat them completely?
>
> Yes, the reformat is long gone. It only applied with
> stepper motor head actuator drives which havent
> been seen for more than a decade or more now.
>
> And you cant format the drive anyway in the sense of the
> servo info. All a format does is write zeros thru the drive now.
July 31, 2005 4:03:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Eric Gisin wrote:
> You should look up error message in eventvwr.

I'm not familiar with that utility. Where do I find this eventviewer?

>
> Most likely the error comes from the USB driver,
> which indicates problems with host controller, IDE bridge, or USB cable.
>
> If anyone's interested, here part of the USB 1.1 spec:
>
> 4.5.1 Error Detection
>
> The core bit error rate of the USB medium is expected to be close to that of
> a backplane and any glitches
> will very likely be transient in nature. To provide protection against such
> transients, each packet includes
> error protection fields. When data integrity is required, such as with
> lossless data devices, an error
> recovery procedure may be invoked in hardware or software.
>
> The protocol includes separate CRCs for control and data fields of each packet.
> A failed CRC is considered to indicate a corrupted packet.
> The CRC gives 100% coverage on single- and double-bit errors.
>
>[..]

Didn't they fix these problems with USB 2?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 31, 2005 4:52:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"name" <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1122836610.295877.212890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Eric Gisin wrote:
> > You should look up error message in eventvwr.
>
> I'm not familiar with that utility. Where do I find this eventviewer?
>

You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 31, 2005 6:40:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"name" <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1122808138.435325.62830@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>
>> > Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable
>> > USB harddisk and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
>>
>> > I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've
>> > run the maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled
>> > support for large drives.
>>
>> > I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any
>> > errors on the drive, even when I perform a surface scan.
>> > However, when I use the drive and copy files from it to
>> > another drive, this fails with a CRC (cyclic redundency
>> > check) error.
>>
>> > Does anyone know what might be causing
>> > it and how to recover from this problem?
>>
>> Try one of the other USB ports and see if that makes any
>> difference on that.
>>
>> Try a different USB cable, not all are that great with USB2,
>>
>> > Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind
>> > regards, Niek
>
> I doubt that could be the problem since the disk appeared to
> work ok for a long time. Only lately when the disk starts to get
> relatively full (10 gb of free space left) I encounter these
> problems.
>

Remove the HD from the enclosure and temporarily connect it to one
of your PC's IDE ribbon cables, then run the mfr's diagnostic
utility.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 31, 2005 6:40:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello.
> Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable USB harddisk
> and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
> I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
> maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large
> drives.
> I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any errors on the
> drive, even when I perform a surface scan. However, when I use the
> drive and copy files from it to another drive, this fails with a CRC
> (cyclic redundency check) error.
> Does anyone know what might be causing it and how to recover from this
> problem?

> Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek

The disk does use CRC only in the IDE interface. This is not
a surface problem. More likely a problem with the enclosure,
maybe too tight timing the disk cannot follow because of
fragmented data or the like. Can you mount the disk direktly
on an IDE interface and try this again?

Arno
Anonymous
a b G Storage
July 31, 2005 8:37:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote

> Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable
> USB harddisk and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.

> I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
> maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large drives.

> I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any
> errors on the drive, even when I perform a surface scan.
> However, when I use the drive and copy files from it to another
> drive, this fails with a CRC (cyclic redundency check) error.

> Does anyone know what might be causing
> it and how to recover from this problem?

Try one of the other USB ports and see if that makes any difference on that.

Try a different USB cable, not all are that great with USB2,

> Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
July 31, 2005 11:21:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Eric Gisin wrote:
> "name" <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1122836610.295877.212890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Eric Gisin wrote:
> > > You should look up error message in eventvwr.
> >
> > I'm not familiar with that utility. Where do I find this eventviewer?
> >
>
> You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.

Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr regarding
the error generated when attempting to copy a file from the USB drive
to another drive:

http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg

I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results in
the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable (the
cable came with the USB enclosure).
August 1, 2005 8:11:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > Eric Gisin wrote
> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> Eric Gisin wrote
>
> >>>> You should look up error message in eventvwr.
>
> >>> I'm not familiar with that utility. Where do I find this eventviewer?
>
> >> You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.
>
> > Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr
> > regarding the error generated when attempting to copy a
> > file from the USB drive to another drive:
>
> > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg
>
> That is basically saying that the disk itself has a bad block on it.
> That would explain why it only showed up once it was pretty full,
> presumably the bad block(s) are towards the end of the physical drive.

But shouldn't such problems normally be detected by error checking in
windows when it includes a surface scan?

>
> > I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results in
> > the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
> > difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
> > another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable (the
> > cable came with the USB enclosure).
>
> It doesnt look like a USB problem at all. Try running
> the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.

Yep, but I presume that means booting from a floppy and having the
drive
mounted internally or would it also be possible to check USB drives
with the bootable diagnostic utility from maxtor?
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 1, 2005 8:24:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote

>>> Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable
>>> USB harddisk and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.

>>> I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
>>> maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large drives.

>>> I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any
>>> errors on the drive, even when I perform a surface scan.
>>> However, when I use the drive and copy files from it to another
>>> drive, this fails with a CRC (cyclic redundency check) error.

>>> Does anyone know what might be causing
>>> it and how to recover from this problem?

>> Try one of the other USB ports and see if that makes any difference on that.

>> Try a different USB cable, not all are that great with USB2,

>>> Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek

> I doubt that could be the problem since the
> disk appeared to work ok for a long time.

All problems show up sometime.

> Only lately when the disk starts to get relatively full
> (10 gb of free space left) I encounter these problems.

OK, you should have said that in your original.

Where are you actually getting the CRC error reported, at the XP level ?

Guess its possible its something strange with the IDE/USB bridge in the
box, but its hard to see why that should only be seen with little free space.

Its certainly possible that a very hot drive could have problems
with access to the highest LBA numbers of sectors, but hard to
see why that would result in CRC errors visible at the XP level.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 1, 2005 8:29:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arno Wagner wrote:
>> Previously name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello.
>>> Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable USB harddisk
>>> and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
>>> I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
>>> maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large
>>> drives.
>>> I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any errors on
>>> the drive, even when I perform a surface scan. However, when I use
>>> the drive and copy files from it to another drive, this fails with
>>> a CRC (cyclic redundency check) error.
>>> Does anyone know what might be causing it and how to recover from
>>> this problem?
>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
>>
>> The disk does use CRC only in the IDE interface. This is not
>> a surface problem. More likely a problem with the enclosure,
>> maybe too tight timing the disk cannot follow because of
>> fragmented data or the like. Can you mount the disk direktly
>> on an IDE interface and try this again?

> I bought the disk because I don't have any room to build
> in another harddrive, so that isn't going to be easy.

> I did use the drive internally in another computer temporarily
> and it seemed to work ok. However, I did not try to fill up the
> drive with files to check if there would be any problems when
> subsequently trying to copy the files back to another disk.

Best to try that, tho its hard to see why it should produce CRC
errors at the XP level unless you have described that poorly.

> Perhaps I'll do that to see if that works.

Yeah, I would, just because the symptoms dont really
fit any failure mode, so more info would be useful.

> But suppose that doesn't give any problems,
> does that mean the USB enclosure is worthless?

Still hard to say. Its possible that only seeing the effect
with little free space is an illusion and you are actually
just seeing the problem in the warmer weather instead,
in which case it isnt necessarily the USB enclosure.

> I do notice the enclosure (which is from metal)
> doesn't have a fan and tends to get quite hot.

So the problem might just have shown up with warmer weather.

> Can diskdrives be mounted vertically as well as horizontally
> without having to reformat them completely?

Yes, the reformat is long gone. It only applied with
stepper motor head actuator drives which havent
been seen for more than a decade or more now.

And you cant format the drive anyway in the sense of the
servo info. All a format does is write zeros thru the drive now.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 1, 2005 9:23:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eric Gisin wrote:
>> You should look up error message in eventvwr.

> I'm not familiar with that utility. Where do I find this eventviewer?

He's talking about the event viewer in XP computer management.

>> Most likely the error comes from the USB driver,
>> which indicates problems with host controller, IDE bridge, or USB
>> cable.
>>
>> If anyone's interested, here part of the USB 1.1 spec:
>>
>> 4.5.1 Error Detection
>>
>> The core bit error rate of the USB medium is expected to be close to
>> that of
>> a backplane and any glitches
>> will very likely be transient in nature. To provide protection
>> against such transients, each packet includes
>> error protection fields. When data integrity is required, such as
>> with lossless data devices, an error
>> recovery procedure may be invoked in hardware or software.
>>
>> The protocol includes separate CRCs for control and data fields of
>> each packet. A failed CRC is considered to indicate a corrupted
>> packet.
>> The CRC gives 100% coverage on single- and double-bit errors.

> Didn't they fix these problems with USB 2?

Nothing to do with those, this is real corrupted packets
that can be due to a bad cable or faulty USB port.

The main question in your case is the lack
of the free space just a coincidence or not.

I'd certainly try another USB port and cable, just because
thats rather easier to try than moving the drive to a PC.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 1, 2005 8:15:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> Eric Gisin wrote
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Eric Gisin wrote

>>>> You should look up error message in eventvwr.

>>> I'm not familiar with that utility. Where do I find this eventviewer?

>> You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.

> Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr
> regarding the error generated when attempting to copy a
> file from the USB drive to another drive:

> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg

That is basically saying that the disk itself has a bad block on it.
That would explain why it only showed up once it was pretty full,
presumably the bad block(s) are towards the end of the physical drive.

> I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results in
> the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
> difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
> another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable (the
> cable came with the USB enclosure).

It doesnt look like a USB problem at all. Try running
the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.
August 1, 2005 11:03:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> Eric Gisin wrote
> >>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> >>>>> Eric Gisin wrote
>
> >>>>>> You should look up error message in eventvwr.
>
> >>>>> I'm not familiar with that utility.
> >>>>> Where do I find this eventviewer?
>
> >>>> You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.
>
> >>> Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr
> >>> regarding the error generated when attempting to copy a
> >>> file from the USB drive to another drive:
>
> >>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg
>
> >> That is basically saying that the disk itself has a bad block on it.
> >> That would explain why it only showed up once it was pretty full,
> >> presumably the bad block(s) are towards the end of the physical drive.
>
> > But shouldn't such problems normally be detected by
> > error checking in windows when it includes a surface scan?
>
> The surface scan is read only, presumably the problem is with writes.

The problem specifically occurs when I copy files FROM the usb drive TO
another drive, never the other way around.
I don't get error msgs when I put files on the usb drive or when I
delete those files, only when I copy them to another drive.

>
> Check the SMART stats on the drive, that should show the bad sectors.

Where do I find those SMART stats?

>
> >>> I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results
> >>> in the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
> >>> difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
> >>> another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable (the
> >>> cable came with the USB enclosure).
>
> >> It doesnt look like a USB problem at all. Try running
> >> the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.
>
> > Yep, but I presume that means booting from
> > a floppy and having the drive mounted internally
>
> That would certainly simplify things. I wouldnt personally
> boot from a floppy tho, I'd use one of the bootable CDs that
> has the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the CD.
>
> > or would it also be possible to check USB drives
> > with the bootable diagnostic utility from maxtor?
>
> I havent checked what maxtor has done with diags for USB lately.
>
> Certainly easiest to try that route initially.

Hopefully maxtor has a diagnostic utility with usb support which can be
burned to a bootable CD (though I doubt it from my last look at their
support webpage). Perhaps I'll see if there is some utility to
extensively scan and check the usb disk in norton system works first.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 2, 2005 8:26:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Eric Gisin wrote
>>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Eric Gisin wrote

>>>>>> You should look up error message in eventvwr.

>>>>> I'm not familiar with that utility.
>>>>> Where do I find this eventviewer?

>>>> You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.

>>> Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr
>>> regarding the error generated when attempting to copy a
>>> file from the USB drive to another drive:

>>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg

>> That is basically saying that the disk itself has a bad block on it.
>> That would explain why it only showed up once it was pretty full,
>> presumably the bad block(s) are towards the end of the physical drive.

> But shouldn't such problems normally be detected by
> error checking in windows when it includes a surface scan?

The surface scan is read only, presumably the problem is with writes.

Check the SMART stats on the drive, that should show the bad sectors.

>>> I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results
>>> in the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
>>> difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
>>> another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable (the
>>> cable came with the USB enclosure).

>> It doesnt look like a USB problem at all. Try running
>> the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.

> Yep, but I presume that means booting from
> a floppy and having the drive mounted internally

That would certainly simplify things. I wouldnt personally
boot from a floppy tho, I'd use one of the bootable CDs that
has the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the CD.

> or would it also be possible to check USB drives
> with the bootable diagnostic utility from maxtor?

I havent checked what maxtor has done with diags for USB lately.

Certainly easiest to try that route initially.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 2, 2005 8:26:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3l77qmF112q99U1@individual.net
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> > > name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > > > Eric Gisin wrote
> > > > > name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > > > > > Eric Gisin wrote
>
> > > > > > > You should look up error message in eventvwr.
>
> > > > > > I'm not familiar with that utility.
> > > > > > Where do I find this eventviewer?
>
> > > > > You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.
>
> > > > Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr
> > > > regarding the error generated when attempting to copy a
> > > > file from the USB drive to another drive:
>
> > > > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg
>
> > > That is basically saying that the disk itself has a bad block on it.
> > > That would explain why it only showed up once it was pretty full,
> > > presumably the bad block(s) are towards the end of the physical drive.
>
> > But shouldn't such problems normally be detected by
> > error checking in windows when it includes a surface scan?
>
> The surface scan is read only, presumably the problem is with writes.

You don't get errror messages on writes, clueless. You get them on reads.
Write errors go undetected (unless they are sector not found errors).
They show up on the reads afterwards.

>
> Check the SMART stats on the drive, that should show the bad sectors.
>
> > > > I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results
> > > > in the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
> > > > difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
> > > > another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable (the
> > > > cable came with the USB enclosure).
>
> > > It doesnt look like a USB problem at all. Try running
> > > the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.
>
> > Yep, but I presume that means booting from
> > a floppy and having the drive mounted internally
>
> That would certainly simplify things. I wouldnt personally
> boot from a floppy tho, I'd use one of the bootable CDs that
> has the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the CD.
>
> > or would it also be possible to check USB drives
> > with the bootable diagnostic utility from maxtor?
>
> I havent checked what maxtor has done with diags for USB lately.
>
> Certainly easiest to try that route initially.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 2, 2005 4:35:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Eric Gisin wrote
>>>>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Eric Gisin wrote

>>>>>>>> You should look up error message in eventvwr.

>>>>>>> I'm not familiar with that utility.
>>>>>>> Where do I find this eventviewer?

>>>>>> You can Start | Run - eventvwr or use Computer Management.

>>>>> Ok, here is a screenshot of the info displayed by eventvwr
>>>>> regarding the error generated when attempting to copy a
>>>>> file from the USB drive to another drive:

>>>>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/screen_shot.jpg

>>>> That is basically saying that the disk itself has a bad
>>>> block on it. That would explain why it only showed up
>>>> once it was pretty full, presumably the bad block(s)
>>>> are towards the end of the physical drive.

>>> But shouldn't such problems normally be detected by
>>> error checking in windows when it includes a surface scan?

>> The surface scan is read only, presumably the problem is with writes.

> The problem specifically occurs when I copy files FROM
> the usb drive TO another drive, never the other way around.
> I don't get error msgs when I put files on the usb drive or when
> I delete those files, only when I copy them to another drive.

Odder and odder.

Maybe the event log entry is misleading, did you
see what the detailled help on that actually says ?

>> Check the SMART stats on the drive, that should show the bad sectors.

> Where do I find those SMART stats?

I use Everest. Not sure if it will show the stats with a USB drive,
havent tried. If it wont get them with the drive internal to a PC.
That would settle the question of whether its really a bad block or not.
http://www.lavalys.com/products/overview.php?pid=1&lang...

>>>>> I did change the USB cable to a different port (that still results
>>>>> in the same CRC data error), but trying out another cable is more
>>>>> difficult since I only have one and don't like the idea of buying
>>>>> another cable just to try out if the problem is a faulty cable
>>>>> (the cable came with the USB enclosure).

>>>> It doesnt look like a USB problem at all. Try running
>>>> the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.

>>> Yep, but I presume that means booting from
>>> a floppy and having the drive mounted internally

>> That would certainly simplify things. I wouldnt personally
>> boot from a floppy tho, I'd use one of the bootable CDs that
>> has the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on the CD.

>>> or would it also be possible to check USB drives
>>> with the bootable diagnostic utility from maxtor?

>> I havent checked what maxtor has done with diags for USB lately.

>> Certainly easiest to try that route initially.

> Hopefully maxtor has a diagnostic utility with usb support
> which can be burned to a bootable CD (though I doubt it
> from my last look at their support webpage).

Best way to use their web site for that is to select the drive and
see what diag tools they offer for the particular drive you have.

> Perhaps I'll see if there is some utility to extensively
> scan and check the usb disk in norton system works first.

I'd try a maxtor diag first.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 3, 2005 12:12:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:

> Arno Wagner wrote:
>> Previously name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello.
>> > Lately, I've been having some problems with a portable USB harddisk
>> > and I'm puzzled how to resolve them.
>> > I use a cheap USB enclosure for a 200 GB maxtor disk. I've run the
>> > maxblast utility for windows which said it enabled support for large
>> > drives.
>> > I can check the drive in win XP and it doesn't report any errors on the
>> > drive, even when I perform a surface scan. However, when I use the
>> > drive and copy files from it to another drive, this fails with a CRC
>> > (cyclic redundency check) error.
>> > Does anyone know what might be causing it and how to recover from this
>> > problem?
>>
>> > Thanks in advance for any feedback on this issue, kind regards, Niek
>>
>> The disk does use CRC only in the IDE interface. This is not
>> a surface problem. More likely a problem with the enclosure,
>> maybe too tight timing the disk cannot follow because of
>> fragmented data or the like. Can you mount the disk direktly
>> on an IDE interface and try this again?
>>
>> Arno

> I bought the disk because I don't have any room to build in another
> harddrive, so that isn't going to be easy.
> I did use the drive internally in another computer temporarily and it
> seemed to work ok. However, I did not try to fill up the drive with
> files to check if there would be any problems when subsequently trying
> to copy the files back to another disk.
> Perhaps I'll do that to see if that works. But suppose that doesn't
> give any problems, does that mean the USB enclosure is worthless?

That is a possibility. I had to throw one away because of random
errors that completely went away when the disk was connected directly.

> I do notice the enclosure (which is from metal) doesn't have a fan and
> tends to get quite hot.

Also not good.

> Can diskdrives be mounted vertically as well as horizontally without
> having to reformat them completely?

Has no influence today. Mount them as you like.

Arno
August 3, 2005 6:15:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed wrote
> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> [..]
> > Is there any website with objective info about
> > various brands and their respective failure rates?
>
> Not that I have ever seen and I doubt its even possible.
>
> Only the drive manufacturers have that data for drives
> still in warranty and they are unlikely to make it available.
>
> >>> Unless maxtor will replace both drives without any hassle,
> >>> I will never buy a maxtor drive again (and unfortunately
> >>> I recently bought a 300 GB maxtor drive as well).
>
> >> And that one appears to have problems too from your other post.
>
> > Fortunately I still have the receipt for that one and purchased it fairly
> > recently, so exchanging it for a nondefective unit shouldn't be difficult.
>
> >>> Anyway, thanks to everyone in this thread
> >>> for providing comments and suggestions.
>
> >> I'd run Everest on all the drives and check the raw SMART
> >> data. In fact post it here or put it on your web site etc.
>
> > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart120.jpg
>
> > Is this the raw SMART data you're referring to?
>
> Yep.
>
> > If it is, I'll post links to similar screenshots
> > for the 200 gb and 300 gb drive as well.
>
> Post when ready, Griddley.

http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart200.jpg
http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart300.jpg

BTW, I also downloaded WD's diagnostic utility (on bootable CD) and it
turned out that drive passed all tests without problems.

>
> >> Basically as a quick check on whether MaxBlast is having massive
> >> brain fade, as is quite possible given all 3 drives are reported as bad.
August 3, 2005 7:56:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Rod Speed wrote:
> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Rod Speed wrote:
> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed wrote
> >>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
> >> [..]
> >>> Is there any website with objective info about
> >>> various brands and their respective failure rates?
> >>
> >> Not that I have ever seen and I doubt its even possible.
> >>
> >> Only the drive manufacturers have that data for drives
> >> still in warranty and they are unlikely to make it available.
> >>
> >>>>> Unless maxtor will replace both drives without any hassle,
> >>>>> I will never buy a maxtor drive again (and unfortunately
> >>>>> I recently bought a 300 GB maxtor drive as well).
> >>
> >>>> And that one appears to have problems too from your other post.
> >>
> >>> Fortunately I still have the receipt for that one and purchased it
> >>> fairly recently, so exchanging it for a nondefective unit shouldn't
> >>> be difficult.
> >>
> >>>>> Anyway, thanks to everyone in this thread
> >>>>> for providing comments and suggestions.
> >>
> >>>> I'd run Everest on all the drives and check the raw SMART
> >>>> data. In fact post it here or put it on your web site etc.
>
> >>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart120.jpg
>
> This one doesnt look too bad, just one pending sector
> and one offline. This is the drive the diag suggests that
> a repair should help with. Likely that would fix it.

Hmmm... I'll think I'll have it replaced anyway (if possible), while
the warranty still lasts. I don't like the idea of having any errors on
my disk.

>
> >>> Is this the raw SMART data you're referring to?
>
> >> Yep.
>
> >>> If it is, I'll post links to similar screenshots
> >>> for the 200 gb and 300 gb drive as well.
>
> >> Post when ready, Griddley.
>
> > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart200.jpg
>
> This one doesnt look that great, the pending sector count is
> likely what is producing the problems you have been seeing.
> I'd use the maxtor diag report to get it exchanged under warranty.

That one will go back first. I do hope it wasn't the USB enclosure that
caused the drive to malfunction.

>
> > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart300.jpg
>
> That one looks fine, no problems at all reported. Looks
> like the maxtor diagnostic is having a massive brain fart.

I'll see if I can contact maxtor to see what they have to say about
this.
Kinda weird that their diagnostics software should fail on a drive
while it actually works ok.

>
> > BTW, I also downloaded WD's diagnostic utility (on bootable CD)
> > and it turned out that drive passed all tests without problems.
>
> Yeah, clearly the maxtor diag is having a brain fart with that drive.

Oh, sorry for the confusion, I meant I tried the WD's diagnostics on a
250 GB WD drive I have as well. I clearly have too many harddrives. :-)

>
> >>>> Basically as a quick check on whether PowerMax is having massive
> >>>> brain fade, as is quite possible given all 3 drives are reported as bad.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 4, 2005 11:30:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>> [..]
>>> Is there any website with objective info about
>>> various brands and their respective failure rates?
>>
>> Not that I have ever seen and I doubt its even possible.
>>
>> Only the drive manufacturers have that data for drives
>> still in warranty and they are unlikely to make it available.
>>
>>>>> Unless maxtor will replace both drives without any hassle,
>>>>> I will never buy a maxtor drive again (and unfortunately
>>>>> I recently bought a 300 GB maxtor drive as well).
>>
>>>> And that one appears to have problems too from your other post.
>>
>>> Fortunately I still have the receipt for that one and purchased it
>>> fairly recently, so exchanging it for a nondefective unit shouldn't
>>> be difficult.
>>
>>>>> Anyway, thanks to everyone in this thread
>>>>> for providing comments and suggestions.
>>
>>>> I'd run Everest on all the drives and check the raw SMART
>>>> data. In fact post it here or put it on your web site etc.

>>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart120.jpg

This one doesnt look too bad, just one pending sector
and one offline. This is the drive the diag suggests that
a repair should help with. Likely that would fix it.

>>> Is this the raw SMART data you're referring to?

>> Yep.

>>> If it is, I'll post links to similar screenshots
>>> for the 200 gb and 300 gb drive as well.

>> Post when ready, Griddley.

> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart200.jpg

This one doesnt look that great, the pending sector count is
likely what is producing the problems you have been seeing.
I'd use the maxtor diag report to get it exchanged under warranty.

> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart300.jpg

That one looks fine, no problems at all reported. Looks
like the maxtor diagnostic is having a massive brain fart.

> BTW, I also downloaded WD's diagnostic utility (on bootable CD)
> and it turned out that drive passed all tests without problems.

Yeah, clearly the maxtor diag is having a brain fart with that drive.

>>>> Basically as a quick check on whether PowerMax is having massive
>>>> brain fade, as is quite possible given all 3 drives are reported as bad.
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 7, 2005 12:27:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

name wrote:

>
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Rod Speed wrote:
>> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>> >>> Rod Speed wrote
>> >>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>> >> [..]
>> >>> Is there any website with objective info about
>> >>> various brands and their respective failure rates?
>> >>
>> >> Not that I have ever seen and I doubt its even possible.
>> >>
>> >> Only the drive manufacturers have that data for drives
>> >> still in warranty and they are unlikely to make it available.
>> >>
>> >>>>> Unless maxtor will replace both drives without any hassle,
>> >>>>> I will never buy a maxtor drive again (and unfortunately
>> >>>>> I recently bought a 300 GB maxtor drive as well).
>> >>
>> >>>> And that one appears to have problems too from your other post.
>> >>
>> >>> Fortunately I still have the receipt for that one and purchased it
>> >>> fairly recently, so exchanging it for a nondefective unit shouldn't
>> >>> be difficult.
>> >>
>> >>>>> Anyway, thanks to everyone in this thread
>> >>>>> for providing comments and suggestions.
>> >>
>> >>>> I'd run Everest on all the drives and check the raw SMART
>> >>>> data. In fact post it here or put it on your web site etc.
>>
>> >>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart120.jpg
>>
>> This one doesnt look too bad, just one pending sector
>> and one offline. This is the drive the diag suggests that
>> a repair should help with. Likely that would fix it.
>
> Hmmm... I'll think I'll have it replaced anyway (if possible), while
> the warranty still lasts. I don't like the idea of having any errors on
> my disk.

They all have errors. It used to be that one of the steps in setting up a
machine was keying in the bad sector table, that came on a little piece of
paper taped to the drive. Now the bad sectors are handled transparently by
the onboard controller on the drive so that until things get real bad you
seldom see them and when you do they're transient. The occasional bad
sector developing in service is nothing to worry about--it's when you get a
pattern of them increasing regularly that you have troubles.

If you can identify the file in which the bad sector resides and erase or
copy that file, the bad sector will likely go away--it's only visible while
it has live data on it--as soon as the disk has an opportunity to write to
the sector it will map in a spare.

Now if you have a bad sector that won't go away when you write fresh data to
it, _then_ you for sure have a drive that's ready for the trash bin because
it means that the spare sectors have all been used up.

This is why SMART exists, so that you can tell that the drive is starting to
develop problems before it gets to that point--without it a drive would
seem to be working perfectly almost to the instant of total failure.
>
>>
>> >>> Is this the raw SMART data you're referring to?
>>
>> >> Yep.
>>
>> >>> If it is, I'll post links to similar screenshots
>> >>> for the 200 gb and 300 gb drive as well.
>>
>> >> Post when ready, Griddley.
>>
>> > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart200.jpg
>>
>> This one doesnt look that great, the pending sector count is
>> likely what is producing the problems you have been seeing.
>> I'd use the maxtor diag report to get it exchanged under warranty.
>
> That one will go back first. I do hope it wasn't the USB enclosure that
> caused the drive to malfunction.
>
>>
>> > http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart300.jpg
>>
>> That one looks fine, no problems at all reported. Looks
>> like the maxtor diagnostic is having a massive brain fart.
>
> I'll see if I can contact maxtor to see what they have to say about
> this.
> Kinda weird that their diagnostics software should fail on a drive
> while it actually works ok.
>
>>
>> > BTW, I also downloaded WD's diagnostic utility (on bootable CD)
>> > and it turned out that drive passed all tests without problems.
>>
>> Yeah, clearly the maxtor diag is having a brain fart with that drive.
>
> Oh, sorry for the confusion, I meant I tried the WD's diagnostics on a
> 250 GB WD drive I have as well. I clearly have too many harddrives. :-)
>
>>
>> >>>> Basically as a quick check on whether PowerMax is having massive
>> >>>> brain fade, as is quite possible given all 3 drives are reported as
>> >>>> bad.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Anonymous
a b G Storage
August 8, 2005 7:34:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage (More info?)

Previously J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
> name wrote:

>>
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Rod Speed wrote:
>>> >> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>> >>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> >>>> name <dohduhdah@gmail.com> wrote
>>> >> [..]
>>> >>> Is there any website with objective info about
>>> >>> various brands and their respective failure rates?
>>> >>
>>> >> Not that I have ever seen and I doubt its even possible.
>>> >>
>>> >> Only the drive manufacturers have that data for drives
>>> >> still in warranty and they are unlikely to make it available.
>>> >>
>>> >>>>> Unless maxtor will replace both drives without any hassle,
>>> >>>>> I will never buy a maxtor drive again (and unfortunately
>>> >>>>> I recently bought a 300 GB maxtor drive as well).
>>> >>
>>> >>>> And that one appears to have problems too from your other post.
>>> >>
>>> >>> Fortunately I still have the receipt for that one and purchased it
>>> >>> fairly recently, so exchanging it for a nondefective unit shouldn't
>>> >>> be difficult.
>>> >>
>>> >>>>> Anyway, thanks to everyone in this thread
>>> >>>>> for providing comments and suggestions.
>>> >>
>>> >>>> I'd run Everest on all the drives and check the raw SMART
>>> >>>> data. In fact post it here or put it on your web site etc.
>>>
>>> >>> http://www.ibbu.nl/~nsprakel/smart120.jpg
>>>
>>> This one doesnt look too bad, just one pending sector
>>> and one offline. This is the drive the diag suggests that
>>> a repair should help with. Likely that would fix it.
>>
>> Hmmm... I'll think I'll have it replaced anyway (if possible), while
>> the warranty still lasts. I don't like the idea of having any errors on
>> my disk.

> They all have errors. It used to be that one of the steps in setting up a
> machine was keying in the bad sector table, that came on a little piece of
> paper taped to the drive. Now the bad sectors are handled transparently by
> the onboard controller on the drive so that until things get real bad you
> seldom see them and when you do they're transient. The occasional bad
> sector developing in service is nothing to worry about--it's when you get a
> pattern of them increasing regularly that you have troubles.

I concur. One thing I have done successfully to keep read errors
like this toi develop is to do a complete surface scan (reading)
of each drive on or two time a month. The idea is that bad sectors
develop over time and may still be readable but recognised as
bad if the error did not have much time to develop. The result
is that there are no read errors, but occasionally a drive develops
some reallocated bad secotrs. I have had as much as 273 reallocated
sectors in one go, with a drive that never had any more bad
sectors in 2 years of running 24/7 afterwards afterwards. These
did not cause any read errors.

Arno
!