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Urgent reccomendation needed, Canopus vs Matrox

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Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Hi all,

As usual, I've been asked to make a purchasing decision for some
people in my workplace, and given only a 2 days notice to come up with
a spec + quote and submit it. They're extremely vague about their
requirements, and initially had all sorts of bullshit written down.

Basically, they need to get two systems setup, and one of them has to
be capable of video editing(mostly from analog sources like vcr's),
the other just has to be able to display video at a decent clip(i.e
any decent spec machine on the market today) and for general office
work.

This is based off a uni grant, so basically they have allocated a
certain dollar figure and need to spend it all, to buy the best they
can get with the money, because they wont have any more money to spend
on the systems for several years, basically until they're replaced.

So I want something as future proof as possible. I was looking at
either the Canopus DVstorm2 pro Ultra at around $1900 or the Matrox
rtx10 or rtx100. It seems to make sense to look at those packages
because they include Premiere Pro, which would otherwise costs us $300
seperately to buy. Any thoughts on which of the two is better? From
the specs it seems like the DVstorm2 far outclasses the Matrox
products? I guess with the usage these guys will have it won't matter
that much, more so of import is how simple to setup and use the
products are, and how reliable and future proof they are...

So any thoughts? I need to spec out and quote these systems by
lunchtime monday here in australia (so sunday for you guys in the
USA)...

Also, talking to the store that carries both these products they seem
to stress that they're incompatible with certain motherboards. I rang
Canopus, and they seemed very biased(unfairly so, more like a
religious preference than any defects with the other brands) and were
pushing that I get Intel based machines... What I was looking at to
buy were some nforce2 based systems as they're great value for money
and perform well....

Anyways, I've rambled enough, thanks for any help :) 

Jonathan
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Jonathan Solomon <barfster@nospammers.iinet.net.au> writes:

> Also, talking to the store that carries both these products they seem
> to stress that they're incompatible with certain motherboards. I rang
> Canopus, and they seemed very biased(unfairly so, more like a
> religious preference than any defects with the other brands) and were
> pushing that I get Intel based machines... What I was looking at to
> buy were some nforce2 based systems as they're great value for money
> and perform well....

I've just had my first experience with canopus tools. But at a much
lower level than you. `Lets edit'. Far as future compatable. Its not
even compatable with present stuff. I'm unable to use any of my *avi
files not created in canopus with out converting them with a canopus
tool.

I noticed further there add on utils and such have unorthodox install
routines makeing it hard to know if you've got the darn stuff or not.
or if its where it needs to be. Seems to have un proffesional bare
minumum coding.... very sloppy and poorly prepared.

I'm admittadle a noob at this, but am very unhappy with my first brush
with canopus, especially since I've seen it pushed on this forum
several times. I'd really look askance at spending any money on it
again, let alone the prices you're dealing with.
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> Also, talking to the store that carries both these products they seem
> to stress that they're incompatible with certain motherboards. I rang
> Canopus, and they seemed very biased(unfairly so, more like a
> religious preference than any defects with the other brands) and were
> pushing that I get Intel based machines... What I was looking at to
> buy were some nforce2 based systems as they're great value for money
> and perform well....
>
> Anyways, I've rambled enough, thanks for any help :) 


If you want future proof, then I'd get an Intel 875P mobo based computer
with the Canopus UltraStorm with Premier. Why even take a chance on
compatibility problems for this long term investment? If you're going to
drop a couple of grand on a video card, why try to save a few bucks
elsewhere? The 2.8 gig 875P mobo based box I bought in Jan is are
already upgradeable to Intel's latest processors and it's just a fact
that Intel based mobos/chipsets are more stable than any other
available.

At this level, I can't imagine any other editing s/w besides Premier
with the possible exception of Avid ExpressDV, and the learning curve on
that is steeper than Premier with less user support availability. As
Brian said, your best research option rather than this ng would be
dvdrhelp.com, specifically here:

http://www.dvdrhelp.com/capturecards

As you can tell, you get widely varying opinions here, based on varying
levels of experience and skillset. And reader@newsguy.com experience
with Canopus' rudimentary editing package should have no bearing
whatsoever on your decision. I'm sorry he's having problems but the s/w
he's using isn't even in the same _universe_ as what you're considering.
Related resources
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I would consider the Canopus option - having recently got a Raptor RT2max
bundled with Edius2. Yes there are hardware issues with some motherboards
but if you goto the canopus form or website you can get info on boards that
are fine. The intel based boards always seem much more stable to the
hardware so a 865 or 875 chipset board will be more compatible than others -
but others do work! Do they have to use Premiere? A big learning curve and
not IMHO the best edit app to use.

The Storm IMHO outperfoms the RTX100 but others might disagree.

In regard to reader Lets edit is a very basic piece of software that does do
the job. I'm sorry to here the probs - goto the canopus form and help will
be given.

However to judge the whole of canopus' editing systems on your experience so
far of Lets edit is a bit ridiculous.
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Paul Harrison" <postmaster@paulharrison.f9.co.uk> writes:

> However to judge the whole of canopus' editing systems on your experience so
> far of Lets edit is a bit ridiculous.

Perhaps you missed some of my post..

> I've just had my first experience with canopus tools. But at a much
> lower level than you.

> I'm admittedy [ed -hp (spelling corrected)] a noob at this, but am
> very unhappy with my first brush with canopus, especially since I've
> seen it pushed on this forum

Adequate commentary was provided to allow any reader, (even you) to
see the depth [very little] of my knowledge..

What is ridiculous is to pretend you didn't notice, so as to allow
yourself to render such sage advice.

As you pointed out, `Lets Edit' is their most basic tool. If they
can't get that right, its a good indication of what to expect.

And the fact that no warning is given in their sales pitches tells me
the intent to fleece is there. Or at a minimum, no care went into
that either.
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

>I've just had my first experience with canopus tools. But at a much
>lower level than you. `Lets edit'.

What version are you using, hardware or sotware only? I'm using the hardware
version and it's an exceptional product for the price and extremely stable.

>Its not even compatable with present stuff. I'm unable to use any of my *avi
>files not created in canopus with out converting them with a canopus
>tool.

I've not had any problems with this using AVI files created with Pinnacle or
Roxio products, as long as I use the free conversion program available from
Canopus. What other programs do you use that provide free conversion software?

As to installation - at least in my case it was easy and without issue.

The Canopus forums on their site are great and very useful. Almost 95% of the
problems posted there are user error, and corrected with a day with posts from
more knowledgeable users or the Canopus support statff.

I really like the Let's Edit RT+ hardware and software. I'm a newbe too, and
for the price, I couldn't anything that offered all of these features at this
price.



KevinONeil@AOL.Com
Images and Articles on Techniques at:
http://www.Eastern-Light.com
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:21:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

kevinoneil@aol.com (KevinONeil) writes:

>>I've just had my first experience with canopus tools. But at a much
>>lower level than you. `Lets edit'.
>

> What version are you using, hardware or sotware only? I'm using the
> hardware version and it's an exceptional product for the price and
> extremely stable.

It was newest release about 2-3 wks ago. Now there have been 2
updates. I've installed both, so currently 1.6 I think (can't check
right now) An update of *something 6 was just released a few days ago.
I understood it would allow users to use *avi produced by pinnacle
without conversion. Mine are still unusable... I get really bad
audio... very staticy.

>>Its not even compatable with present stuff. I'm unable to use any
>>of my *avi files not created in canopus with out converting them
>>with a canopus tool.
>
> I've not had any problems with this using AVI files created with
> Pinnacle or Roxio products, as long as I use the free conversion
> program available from Canopus. What other programs do you use that
> provide free conversion software?

There are many free converters of various formats to various
others. Two nice ones that come to mind are `FooBar2000', and
`dbPowerAmp'. To be sure these are not intended to convert *avi, but
only audio files.

As I posted, yes there are conversion tools. Adding more work to
the process. I'm not sure I should go all gaga about it being free.
Why is it even necessary? From what I saw posted by
Susan, that has been an issue with this package for a very long
time. Before it was called `Lets Edit'.

At risk, at this point of becoming a high pitched sniveler... I still
think a few more comments are in order. But let me make one thing
clear. I would be very happy to be skilled enough to get good usage
out of `Lets edit' The fact that I'm not does not relieve them of
the burden of living up to there advertising.

> As to installation - at least in my case it was easy and without
> issue.

I made no comments about installation of `Lets edit'. Yes it was
straightforward. My comments were about the addon utils etc. They
seem to be barely prepared for installation. In some cases I wasn't
sure if the codec or other tool had landed where it was supposed to
go or what.

> The Canopus forums on their site are great and very useful. Almost
> 95% of the problems posted there are user error, and corrected with
> a day with posts from more knowledgeable users or the Canopus
> support statff.

They do have good forums..

But consider your comments .. 95% of problems are user error. That is
incredable. It would seem to point out quite loudly that something is
wrong with it. Or either you're saying 95% of problems are had by
complete morons.

> I really like the Let's Edit RT+ hardware and software. I'm a newbe
> too, and for the price, I couldn't anything that offered all of
> these features at this price.

I didn't get the hardware since I already had capture devices and
software. When you say `and software' do you mean there is software
that is not included in stand alone `Lets Edit'?

I guess I assumed naively that an *avi would perform the same
whereever it was created. Some indication of my lack of knowledge on
this. I hadn't even been aware that there were different kinds of
avi files.

My sole experience before `Lets edit' was pinnacle 8 and pinnacle 8
updated. And I might add, very little actual use of those tools.
What does `Lets Edit' do that Pinnacle (Studio 8) does not?

I know there have been many tirades here about pinnacle but I'm one of
those people who didn't notice all the problems. Perhaps because I
don't know how to put it through its paces yet. I'm still at the
stage of `Golly, I didn't know you could do that'
April 18, 2004 3:43:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Jonathan Solomon <barfster@nospammers.iinet.net.au> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>As usual, I've been asked to make a purchasing decision for some
>people in my workplace, and given only a 2 days notice to come up with
>a spec + quote and submit it. They're extremely vague about their
>requirements, and initially had all sorts of bullshit written down.
>
>Basically, they need to get two systems setup, and one of them has to
>be capable of video editing(mostly from analog sources like vcr's),
>the other just has to be able to display video at a decent clip(i.e
>any decent spec machine on the market today) and for general office
>work.
>
>This is based off a uni grant, so basically they have allocated a
>certain dollar figure and need to spend it all, to buy the best they
>can get with the money, because they wont have any more money to spend
>on the systems for several years, basically until they're replaced.
>
>So I want something as future proof as possible. I was looking at
>either the Canopus DVstorm2 pro Ultra at around $1900 or the Matrox
>rtx10 or rtx100. It seems to make sense to look at those packages
>because they include Premiere Pro, which would otherwise costs us $300
>seperately to buy. Any thoughts on which of the two is better? From
>the specs it seems like the DVstorm2 far outclasses the Matrox
>products? I guess with the usage these guys will have it won't matter
>that much, more so of import is how simple to setup and use the
>products are, and how reliable and future proof they are...
>
>So any thoughts? I need to spec out and quote these systems by
>lunchtime monday here in australia (so sunday for you guys in the
>USA)...
>
>Also, talking to the store that carries both these products they seem
>to stress that they're incompatible with certain motherboards. I rang
>Canopus, and they seemed very biased(unfairly so, more like a
>religious preference than any defects with the other brands) and were
>pushing that I get Intel based machines... What I was looking at to
>buy were some nforce2 based systems as they're great value for money
>and perform well....
>
>Anyways, I've rambled enough, thanks for any help :) 
>
>Jonathan

Due to the cost not many people would use Canopus DVstorm2 pro Ultra.
I'd suggest going to www.dvdrhelp.com where you can get user comments
and ratings on the products you are thinking of buying. If your in a
hurry then doing your own research at this site would be quicker.

Regards Brian
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:17:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:14:44 -0500, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
wrote:

>As you pointed out, `Lets Edit' is their most basic tool. If they
>can't get that right, its a good indication of what to expect.

Canopus has easily the best reputation among manufacturers of
low/mid-range capture-cards (they don't make high-end stuff). They
were always quick with patches. I don't know LE, and have played a
little with Edius, but both of them are fairly new products, and have
to be developed a little further. Usually, and I don't say that it is
your case to, people don't follow the recommended hardware-specs and
run into problems, and blame the manufacturer for a poor piece of
hardware/software, which could easily be avoided. Canopus has proven
to be working among a broad range of hardware, but it will have issues
once in a while too. Re their manuals, yes they are poor. I don't
think they have enough translators in Japan.

cheers

-martin-

--
filmmaker/DP/editor/filmschool techie
Sydney, Australia

"The world is on the move. Adopt, adapt, survive."
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 1:17:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> Canopus has easily the best reputation among manufacturers of
> low/mid-range capture-cards (they don't make high-end stuff). They

If you don't consider the Storm2 Pro a high-end product, I'd certainly
like to know what card you use.
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 8:01:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 22:13:28 -0400, "Morrmar" <morrmar@myway.com-no
spam> wrote:

>If you don't consider the Storm2 Pro a high-end product, I'd certainly
>like to know what card you use.

What I consider high-end, is features like you find on cards like for
instance the AJA or Decklink-cards, like component I/O, SDI, 10-bit
video, AES/EBU audio, able to do uncompressed, those kind of things.
While the S2P is certainly a nice card, it's not a competitor in the
high-end editing industry.
To answer your question, privately I use a Storm 1, and a generic
firewire-card, while at work I use Matrox Digisuite LE (well overdue
now), and generic firewire on a Mac.

cheers

-martin-

--
filmmaker/DP/editor/filmschool techie
Sydney, Australia

"The world is on the move. Adopt, adapt, survive."
Anonymous
April 18, 2004 8:02:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> While the S2P is certainly a nice card, it's not a competitor in the
> high-end editing industry.

I sometimes forget there are a few real professionals here in a rec ng.
As I frequently say, everything depends on the perspective from which
you view a subject.

Take Care
Anonymous
April 19, 2004 12:12:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Harry Putnam" <reader@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:m3fzb29lvx.fsf@newsguy.com...
[snip]
> My sole experience before `Lets edit' was pinnacle 8 and pinnacle 8
> updated. And I might add, very little actual use of those tools.
> What does `Lets Edit' do that Pinnacle (Studio 8) does not?

Chromakeying, for one thing.
Anonymous
April 19, 2004 1:44:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:21:35 +1000, Jonathan Solomon
<barfster@nospammers.iinet.net.au> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>As usual, I've been asked to make a purchasing decision for some
>people in my workplace, and given only a 2 days notice to come up with
>a spec + quote and submit it. They're extremely vague about their
>requirements, and initially had all sorts of bullshit written down.
>
>Basically, they need to get two systems setup, and one of them has to
>be capable of video editing(mostly from analog sources like vcr's),
>the other just has to be able to display video at a decent clip(i.e
>any decent spec machine on the market today) and for general office
>work.
>
>This is based off a uni grant, so basically they have allocated a
>certain dollar figure and need to spend it all, to buy the best they
>can get with the money, because they wont have any more money to spend
>on the systems for several years, basically until they're replaced.
>
>So I want something as future proof as possible. I was looking at
>either the Canopus DVstorm2 pro Ultra at around $1900 or the Matrox
>rtx10 or rtx100. It seems to make sense to look at those packages
>because they include Premiere Pro, which would otherwise costs us $300
>seperately to buy. Any thoughts on which of the two is better? From
>the specs it seems like the DVstorm2 far outclasses the Matrox
>products? I guess with the usage these guys will have it won't matter
>that much, more so of import is how simple to setup and use the
>products are, and how reliable and future proof they are...
>
>So any thoughts? I need to spec out and quote these systems by
>lunchtime monday here in australia (so sunday for you guys in the
>USA)...
>
>Also, talking to the store that carries both these products they seem
>to stress that they're incompatible with certain motherboards. I rang
>Canopus, and they seemed very biased(unfairly so, more like a
>religious preference than any defects with the other brands) and were
>pushing that I get Intel based machines... What I was looking at to
>buy were some nforce2 based systems as they're great value for money
>and perform well....

First thing, digital video eats CPU power like nothing else. Top of
the line Intel P4 is probably your best bet for power and
compatibility with these cards. AMD's only edge is in the 64 bit
arena, but compatibility there is a worry. The cost of your video
editing hardware and software will exceed the basic box cost anyway,
so no reason to skimp on the CPU.

Canopus offers a wider range of edit options and features. With
Matrox you're locked into Premiere, which isn't fatal but does limit
things -- especially for new users without the time to master
Premiere, which isn't the easiest program to learn.

Either one will generate output to tape or mpeg2 fairly well. Both
offer fine real time editing to analog, so for basic edits there won't
be a lot of difference.

For both, you might want to look into turnkey systems from video
dealers -- card and computer bundled together, already set up. RT
video cards are among the trickiest to install and setup of all
hardware.

--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/&gt;
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/&gt;
Anonymous
April 19, 2004 4:44:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:14:44 -0500, Harry Putnam <reader@newsguy.com>
wrote:

>
>As you pointed out, `Lets Edit' is their most basic tool. If they
>can't get that right, its a good indication of what to expect.

Well, maybe. Canopus generally has an excellent reputation. Their
ADVC-100 box is one of the very few pieces of equipment that nobody
has a bad word to say about. (Well, there's always SOMEONE... But you
get my drift :-)

I suspect someone said "We need an entry-level editing package in our
catalogue" and they just bought in something.


Your situation seems to call for a "supply and maintain" deal with a
specialist. How did the department get the impression you were
expert? Rather than take the rap for a bad decision, say "I don't
know. But I know someone who does!".
Anonymous
April 19, 2004 12:24:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:14:54 -0400, "Morrmar" <morrmar@myway.com-no
spam> wrote:

>I sometimes forget there are a few real professionals here in a rec ng.
>As I frequently say, everything depends on the perspective from which
>you view a subject.

Oh, don't get me wrong. A videographer who makes money shooting
weddings and cutting them using a e.g. Storm, is a professional too,
imho. That's why I spoke about high-end, in stead of professional.

cheers

-martin-

--
filmmaker/DP/editor/filmschool techie
Sydney, Australia

"The world is on the move. Adopt, adapt, survive."
Anonymous
April 19, 2004 1:39:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Jonathan Solomon" <barfster@nospammers.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:f94280t39jmbr0mg34il1nbresk221hlei@4ax.com...
> Hi all,

I always find it interesting when people come in and say they need
_immediate_ help and never come back.
Anonymous
April 19, 2004 9:00:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Morrmar" <morrmar@myway.com-no spam> wrote in message news:EyQgc.35560$ux4.5929@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> "Jonathan Solomon" <barfster@nospammers.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> news:f94280t39jmbr0mg34il1nbresk221hlei@4ax.com...
> > Hi all,
>
> I always find it interesting when people come in and say they need
> _immediate_ help and never come back.


I guess we just weren't fast enough for him...
Anonymous
April 20, 2004 3:18:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

In article <816480luj63fmk7j9seh84r91bvss40nb1@4ax.com>, Martin Heffels says...
>

And of course, I spoke too soon :)  Canopus has introduced the Edius-HD turnkey
editing system at the NAB (currently underway in Las Vegas). It features a
HD/SDI-card. A promising addition in the world of HD and high-end, but of
course, seeing is believing.

cheers

-martin-

"better to let them do it imperfectly than to do it perfectly yourself, for it
is their country … and your time is short" T.E. Lawrence
Anonymous
April 20, 2004 10:47:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Hi guys,

I *have* been reading your posts every day :) 

I took one of the original posters advice and checked up the ratings
on dvdrhelp.com, which were pretty much all *glowing*, and then a few
followup posters here kept expressing their utmost faith in Canopus's
mid-range products, so I bit the bullet and am going with the DVStorm.
With the educational discount we receive on it, the price ended up
being about $250 more than the Matrox RTX100 package, and that's for
the Ultra version of the DVS2, which has the drivebay and all the
bundled Adobe programs.

After calling Canopus Australia, and seeing on a few other places that
people have been pleased with it paired with the Abit IC7Max3(I think
that's the model number? the deluxe 875 intel chipset one) I've
ordered two systems based on that. The only thing I was a stickler for
was that I chose Radeon cards over NVIDIA gear... according to the USA
web site the Radeons are certified, and after NVIDIA's recent debacles
of the past year, and the fact that Radeon cards have served me well
at home, I couldn't bear to buy any of their products. The Canopus
people down in Melbourne couldn't really put forward a REASON why they
didn't like the Radeons, and the impression I got was that they didn't
even bother trying any of the recent models, they just have a
religious preference for NVIDIA :) 

I'll be sure to post in a few weeks time once things are all up and
running(hopefully... I might be back sooner with problems) and let you
all know how my experiences went. This is going to be my first ever
experiencing with video editing on a pc, so I hope things don't go to
awry :) 

Thanks again to all who replied,

Jonathan

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:39:27 -0400, "Morrmar" <morrmar@myway.com-no
spam> wrote:

>"Jonathan Solomon" <barfster@nospammers.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>news:f94280t39jmbr0mg34il1nbresk221hlei@4ax.com...
>> Hi all,
>
>I always find it interesting when people come in and say they need
>_immediate_ help and never come back.
>
Anonymous
April 20, 2004 10:47:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> I'll be sure to post in a few weeks time once things are all up and
> running(hopefully... I might be back sooner with problems) and let you
> all know how my experiences went. This is going to be my first ever
> experiencing with video editing on a pc, so I hope things don't go to
> awry :) 


Glad you came back and gave us an update.

Good luck!
Anonymous
April 21, 2004 9:44:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I bought a DVstorm 2 which I am currently editing my second low budget feature
film with, and I'm certainly happy.

Of course, I'm coming from a Pinnacle DC30 Pro, so...
!