HDTV question

G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Maybe I'm just tired, but can someone explain this, from the NBC website:

http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/HDTV.shtml
For those of you are really technically inclined, think about this: movies
and many primetime shows that are produced on film are made with only 24
pictures per second, so 1080i actually becomes progressive scan when
film-based material is being broadcast!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Richard Cavell wrote:
> Maybe I'm just tired, but can someone explain this, from the NBC
> website:
>
> http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/HDTV.shtml
> For those of you are really technically inclined, think about this:
> movies and many primetime shows that are produced on film are made
> with only 24 pictures per second, so 1080i actually becomes
> progressive scan when film-based material is being broadcast!


Sounds to me like a non-technical person wrote the article.
In the paragraph previous to the one you quoted, it says "1080i uses
interlaced scanning, like traditional TV, which alternates sending odd lines
and even lines and thus sends a complete picture 30 times per second. "
which directly contradicts the "1080i actually becomes progressive scan"
statement.

Mike
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:50:02 +1000, "Richard Cavell"
<richardcavell@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Maybe I'm just tired, but can someone explain this, from the NBC website:
>
>http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/HDTV.shtml
>For those of you are really technically inclined, think about this: movies
>and many primetime shows that are produced on film are made with only 24
>pictures per second, so 1080i actually becomes progressive scan when
>film-based material is being broadcast!

Sure. The writer's under the impression that, since 1080i broadcasts
at 60 fields (or 30 frames per second), and films are 24 frames per
second, obviously film-based broadcasts show up at your set magically
non-interlaced, the same way that telecined film material currently
doesn't.

-----------------------------------------------------
Neil Nadelman arvy@navzr-genafyngbe.pbz (ROT13)
-----------------------------------------------------
I have no fears in life,
for I have already survived Theta-G!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On 20-Apr-2004, "Mike Kujbida" <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Sounds to me like a non-technical person wrote the article.
> In the paragraph previous to the one you quoted, it says "1080i uses
> interlaced scanning, like traditional TV, which alternates sending odd
> lines
> and even lines and thus sends a complete picture 30 times per second. "
> which directly contradicts the "1080i actually becomes progressive scan"
> statement.

Absolutely. He also stated that 720P sends 60 full frames per second. Unless
something drastic happened while I was asleep last night, 720P is still 30
FPS.

--
Chris

Munged email. To reply by email (each "word" a letter):
see jay bee are oh oh kay ee [AT] em ess en [DOT] see oh em
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"FlyByKnight" <FlyByKnight@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:%juhc.22105$zf7.1372@fe02.usenetserver.com...
>
> On 20-Apr-2004, "Mike Kujbida" <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> > Sounds to me like a non-technical person wrote the article.
> > In the paragraph previous to the one you quoted, it says "1080i uses
> > interlaced scanning, like traditional TV, which alternates sending odd
> > lines
> > and even lines and thus sends a complete picture 30 times per second. "
> > which directly contradicts the "1080i actually becomes progressive scan"
> > statement.
>
> Absolutely. He also stated that 720P sends 60 full frames per second.
Unless
> something drastic happened while I was asleep last night, 720P is still 30
> FPS.

Something must have happened while you were asleep, because to the best of
my knowledge 720p is 60Hz.
 

Leo

Distinguished
Feb 27, 2001
524
0
18,980
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Richard Cavell" <richardcavell@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4085b4f6$0$27642$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au...
> Maybe I'm just tired, but can someone explain this, from the NBC website:
>
> http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/HDTV.shtml
> For those of you are really technically inclined, think about this: movies
> and many primetime shows that are produced on film are made with only 24
> pictures per second, so 1080i actually becomes progressive scan when
> film-based material is being broadcast!


1080i is good enough for movie but 24fps is not satisfactory for fast
motions. That really requires at least 60fps.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"leo" <someone@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:tQxhc.5339$e4.4511@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Richard Cavell" <richardcavell@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4085b4f6$0$27642$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au...
> > Maybe I'm just tired, but can someone explain this, from the NBC
website:
> >
> > http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/HDTV.shtml
> > For those of you are really technically inclined, think about this:
movies
> > and many primetime shows that are produced on film are made with only 24
> > pictures per second, so 1080i actually becomes progressive scan when
> > film-based material is being broadcast!
>
>
> 1080i is good enough for movie but 24fps is not satisfactory for fast
> motions. That really requires at least 60fps.
>
That is one of the Video/film differences. Video used to be very much
real-time. That is to say that the electron beam in the camera was scanning
the target in the tube in full sync with the TV at home. The exposure time
at any point on the screen is the amount of time it takes to scan the beam
over that point. Of course there are minor propagation delays, but other
than that, TV was really "live". A lot of the opinions in the video/film
question
date back to that time. Now cameras have chips and that changes everything.
Fields (or frames in a camera equipped for progressive) are captured all at
once,
much as film frames are captured. The exposure time can be as long as the
time between frames (or even longer by overlapping the frames). By making
the
exposure longer it is now possible to use "motion blur" to smooth the
motion.
This is how film folks get away with such a low frame rate. But that only
goes
so far. Cinematographers must learn some tricks to help them cope with
action.
The stuttering can be reduced in several ways.

Motion blur is one. Another is having the motion moving towards or away
from the camera (the effect is reduced by limiting the lateral motion). You
can
also track the fast moving object to keep it relatively stable in the frame,
and
then blur out the background so it just becomes a fast moving smear. The
same tricks can be used in video, but most people don't bother. The
interlace
artifacts that people are always complaining about can be greatly reduced
by good film-like camera work.

Some say that his limitation of film is a big part of what makes film better
than video. I say it is a small part. If you shoot video the way film is
shot,
it will look more like a feature film than shooting video the way video is
shot.

David
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Richard Cavell" <richardcavell@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4085b4f6$0$27642$61ce578d@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au...
> Maybe I'm just tired, but can someone explain this, from the NBC website:
>
> http://www.nbc.com/nbc/footer/HDTV.shtml
> For those of you are really technically inclined, think about this: movies
> and many primetime shows that are produced on film are made with only 24
> pictures per second, so 1080i actually becomes progressive scan when
> film-based material is being broadcast!

The explanation is that you need to look at source format separately from
display format. The inference from this statement is that if your source
picture is recorded in progressive scan format then it will retain it's
progressive characteristics even when played back on a interlaced display.
For example I have a MiniDV camera (the original Elura) that can record
30FPS progressive scan (PS). Even though it is played back on a 480i TV the
video still retains the PS characteristics of reduced temporal resolution
and increased spacial resolution.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:46:56 GMT, "FLY135" <fly_135(@ hot not
not)notmail.com> wrote:

>
>"FlyByKnight" <FlyByKnight@example.invalid> wrote in message
>news:%juhc.22105$zf7.1372@fe02.usenetserver.com...
>>
>> On 20-Apr-2004, "Mike Kujbida" <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Sounds to me like a non-technical person wrote the article.
>> > In the paragraph previous to the one you quoted, it says "1080i uses
>> > interlaced scanning, like traditional TV, which alternates sending odd
>> > lines
>> > and even lines and thus sends a complete picture 30 times per second. "
>> > which directly contradicts the "1080i actually becomes progressive scan"
>> > statement.
>>
>> Absolutely. He also stated that 720P sends 60 full frames per second.
>Unless
>> something drastic happened while I was asleep last night, 720P is still 30
>> FPS.

>Something must have happened while you were asleep, because to the best of
>my knowledge 720p is 60Hz.

That's correct -- the standard broadcast (favored, I think, only by
ABC television) is 720/60p: 60Hz frames per second at 1280x720, at's a
bandwidth similar to the 1080/60i (60Hz fields per second at
1920x1080).

It's true the HDV format is supporting only 720/30p, but that's an
artifact of the state of reasonable cost on-the-fly MPEG-2 encoding on
batteries, I guess. DV tape, at 25Mb/s, is capable of supporting the
full range of ATSC broadcast HD. In fact, in the USA, they broadcast
720/60p or 1080/60i at 19.4Mb/s.

Dave Haynie | Chief Toady, Frog Pond Media Consulting
dhaynie@jersey.net| Take Back Freedom! Bush no more in 2004!
"Deathbed Vigil" now on DVD! See http://www.frogpondmedia.com
 

Barry

Distinguished
Apr 1, 2004
346
0
18,780
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Dave Haynie" <dhaynie@jersey.net> wrote in message
news:408912a9.2711334242@news.jersey.net...
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:46:56 GMT, "FLY135" <fly_135(@ hot not
> not)notmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"FlyByKnight" <FlyByKnight@example.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:%juhc.22105$zf7.1372@fe02.usenetserver.com...
> >>
> >> On 20-Apr-2004, "Mike Kujbida" <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sounds to me like a non-technical person wrote the article.
> >> > In the paragraph previous to the one you quoted, it says "1080i uses
> >> > interlaced scanning, like traditional TV, which alternates sending
odd
> >> > lines
> >> > and even lines and thus sends a complete picture 30 times per second.
"
> >> > which directly contradicts the "1080i actually becomes progressive
scan"
> >> > statement.
> >>
> >> Absolutely. He also stated that 720P sends 60 full frames per second.
> >Unless
> >> something drastic happened while I was asleep last night, 720P is still
30
> >> FPS.
>
> >Something must have happened while you were asleep, because to the best
of
> >my knowledge 720p is 60Hz.
>
> That's correct -- the standard broadcast (favored, I think, only by
> ABC television) is 720/60p: 60Hz frames per second at 1280x720, at's a
> bandwidth similar to the 1080/60i (60Hz fields per second at
> 1920x1080).
>
> It's true the HDV format is supporting only 720/30p, but that's an
> artifact of the state of reasonable cost on-the-fly MPEG-2 encoding on
> batteries, I guess. DV tape, at 25Mb/s, is capable of supporting the
> full range of ATSC broadcast HD. In fact, in the USA, they broadcast
> 720/60p or 1080/60i at 19.4Mb/s.
>

HDV also supports 1440x1080i in 60Hz and 50 Hz. The pixel ratio will
stretch to 1920 for 16:9 aspect ratio.

- Barry