Anyone working in 1080p HD???

[TJM]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I'm an amateur at the desktop NLE game, but I was just curious if anyone is
doing HD 1080p editing and compositing using "fairly" affordable hardware &
software (<$5000 total)?

I am thinking of building an NLE system this year and I would like to know
what kind of minimum horsepower I will need to tackle 1080p projects. The
storage needs alone causes my knees to shake....can anyone say multi-TB
RAID?

 

[TJM]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> HDs in a RAID config. You'd probably want 3 23" monitors hooked up to a
> Matrox Parhelia video card. Then stick Windows XP on there with Sony's
> Vegas v5.0 and just pray it works. No way will it be under $5K. You'll
> be lucky if you can do this under $20K.

Gasp.....choke.....sigh!

I think I will be waiting a "few" more years to do 1080p NLE.......

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:9d530f6f7a3f8d20dc80c75b049ad634@dizum.com...
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:59:21 -0400, "TJM" <tjm@nospam> wrote:
>
> >I'm an amateur at the desktop NLE game, but I was just curious if anyone
is
> >doing HD 1080p editing and compositing using "fairly" affordable hardware
> &
> >software (<$5000 total)?
> >
> >I am thinking of building an NLE system this year and I would like to
know
> >what kind of minimum horsepower I will need to tackle 1080p projects.
The
> >storage needs alone causes my knees to shake....can anyone say multi-TB
> >RAID?
>
> I think 1080p HD editing is still out of the range of being usable via
> commodity, off the shelf, hardware. Even AVID's high end systems,
> although they "support" 1080p, crawl under the strain of that.
>
> If you want to edit 1080p HD under the pretense of anything other than a
> joke in 2004, you need to bite the bullet and run Discreet's Fire on a
> 8-CPU SGI Onyx 2. PC hardware chokes under the bandwidth requirements of
> 1080p HD.
>
way way over kill.



> If you MUST make the attempt, then get something like one of the Tyan
> Thunder Dual Opteron MBs (e.g., Thunder K8W) with the two fastest Opteron
> CPUs out there and a 4+GB of DDR400 RAM. You'll need a couple of 2Gb
> PCI-X Fiber Channel Host Bus Adapters with a full complement of 15K FC-AL
> HDs in a RAID config. You'd probably want 3 23" monitors hooked up to a
> Matrox Parhelia video card. Then stick Windows XP on there with Sony's
> Vegas v5.0 and just pray it works. No way will it be under $5K. You'll
> be lucky if you can do this under $20K.
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

What are the FCP HD systems being sold with XServe Raid for?


"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:6df624c82bdd28ac30647312e7d3c6b3@dizum.com...
> On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 06:10:13 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:
>
>
> >"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
> >news:9d530f6f7a3f8d20dc80c75b049ad634@dizum.com...
> >> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:59:21 -0400, "TJM" <tjm@nospam> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I'm an amateur at the desktop NLE game, but I was just curious if
anyone
> >is
> >> >doing HD 1080p editing and compositing using "fairly" affordable
hardware
> >> &
> >> >software (<$5000 total)?
>
> [snip]
>
> >> If you want to edit 1080p HD under the pretense of anything other than
a
> >> joke in 2004, you need to bite the bullet and run Discreet's Fire on a
> >> 8-CPU SGI Onyx 2. PC hardware chokes under the bandwidth requirements
of
> >> 1080p HD.
> >>
> >way way over kill.
>
> 1920 x 1080 x 60 x 3 = ~355MB/sec to handle uncompressed RGB 1080p video.
> Good luck finding 1080p DV codec
> (http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#DV50formats) if you want any
> sort of compression -- 1080i is as high as I think it goes.
>
> PCI gets saturated at <133MB/sec -- real life saturation is ~100MB/sec..
> PCI-X can handle up to 533MB/sec in the lab -- good luck in real life, try
> 400MB/sec MAX.
>
> You think you are gonna get any sort if decent performance off of ATA raid
> arrays? You gotta go FC-AL or SAN.
>
> How many people do you know that are doing even 720p on PCs?
>
> 1080p HD is a bandwidth nightmare. Good luck trying to put something
> together in 2004. Let me know how it goes.
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Not working in HD at the moment but I found these also..


720p HDTV uncompressed:
8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 110.48 MB per/sec, or 398 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 121.52 MB per/sec, or 438 GB per/hr.
1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed:
8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.

And from Decklink's Site:
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/25support.htm


TITLE

Storage and data rates for uncompressed video.

TOPIC

What's the data rate for uncompressed video, and how much space is needed?



DISCUSSION

The storage and data rates for uncompressed video are listed below.

525 NTSC uncompressed;
8 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 20.97 MB per/sec, or 76 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 23.07 MB per/sec, or 83 GB per/hr.

625 PAL uncompressed;
8 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 20.74 MB per/sec, or 75 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 22.81 MB per/sec, or 82 GB per/hr.

720p HDTV uncompressed;
8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 110.48 MB per/sec, or 398 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 121.52 MB per/sec, or 438 GB per/hr.

1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed;
8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 103.68 MB per/sec, or 373 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 114.05 MB per/sec, or 411 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 124.29 MB per/sec, or 447 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 136.72 MB per/sec, or 492 GB per/hr.





All EASILY achievable.



"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:6df624c82bdd28ac30647312e7d3c6b3@dizum.com...
> On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 06:10:13 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:
>
>
> >"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
> >news:9d530f6f7a3f8d20dc80c75b049ad634@dizum.com...
> >> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:59:21 -0400, "TJM" <tjm@nospam> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I'm an amateur at the desktop NLE game, but I was just curious if
anyone
> >is
> >> >doing HD 1080p editing and compositing using "fairly" affordable
hardware
> >> &
> >> >software (<$5000 total)?
>
> [snip]
>
> >> If you want to edit 1080p HD under the pretense of anything other than
a
> >> joke in 2004, you need to bite the bullet and run Discreet's Fire on a
> >> 8-CPU SGI Onyx 2. PC hardware chokes under the bandwidth requirements
of
> >> 1080p HD.
> >>
> >way way over kill.
>
> 1920 x 1080 x 60 x 3 = ~355MB/sec to handle uncompressed RGB 1080p video.
> Good luck finding 1080p DV codec
> (http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#DV50formats) if you want any
> sort of compression -- 1080i is as high as I think it goes.
>
> PCI gets saturated at <133MB/sec -- real life saturation is ~100MB/sec..
> PCI-X can handle up to 533MB/sec in the lab -- good luck in real life, try
> 400MB/sec MAX.
>
> You think you are gonna get any sort if decent performance off of ATA raid
> arrays? You gotta go FC-AL or SAN.
>
> How many people do you know that are doing even 720p on PCs?
>
> 1080p HD is a bandwidth nightmare. Good luck trying to put something
> together in 2004. Let me know how it goes.
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On a sunny day (Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:29:35 GMT) it happened "nappy"
<no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote in
<PJ0xc.6761$DR1.1986@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>:

>
>
>Not working in HD at the moment but I found these also..
>
>
>720p HDTV uncompressed:
>8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 110.48 MB per/sec, or 398 GB per/hr.
>10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 121.52 MB per/sec, or 438 GB per/hr.
>1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed:
>8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
>10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.
>
>And from Decklink's Site:
>http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/25support.htm
Just for fun, last week I made some animation with Blender in Linux
in 1280x1024 progressive AVI, then made it a bit more standard avi
with transcode, so virtualdub could read it, coded that with VP6 codec
in virtaldub to 6000kbps...
You can cut in vdub in that no problem.
Actually I used vdub in Linux wine, but rendering something in Blender
at that size takes ages (seconds per frame).
Anyways, you can have this 1280x1024 resultion compressed at 6000kbps
with that codec and it is better compression that wmv.
Looks good too.
Linux mplayer will play it if you use the latest, and copy the win ddl,
do not use the one mplayer suppies.
It is not NLE, but at least it is something.
JP

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Hello... Nomen.. where'd ya go?


"nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote in message
newsJ0xc.6761$DR1.1986@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Not working in HD at the moment but I found these also..
>
>
> 720p HDTV uncompressed:
> 8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 110.48 MB per/sec, or 398 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 121.52 MB per/sec, or 438 GB per/hr.
> 1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed:
> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.
>
> And from Decklink's Site:
> http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/25support.htm
>
>
> TITLE
>
> Storage and data rates for uncompressed video.
>
> TOPIC
>
> What's the data rate for uncompressed video, and how much space is needed?
>
>
>
> DISCUSSION
>
> The storage and data rates for uncompressed video are listed below.
>
> 525 NTSC uncompressed;
> 8 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 20.97 MB per/sec, or 76 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 23.07 MB per/sec, or 83 GB per/hr.
>
> 625 PAL uncompressed;
> 8 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 20.74 MB per/sec, or 75 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 22.81 MB per/sec, or 82 GB per/hr.
>
> 720p HDTV uncompressed;
> 8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 110.48 MB per/sec, or 398 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 121.52 MB per/sec, or 438 GB per/hr.
>
> 1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed;
> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.
>
> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 103.68 MB per/sec, or 373 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 114.05 MB per/sec, or 411 GB per/hr.
>
> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 124.29 MB per/sec, or 447 GB per/hr.
> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 136.72 MB per/sec, or 492 GB per/hr.
>
>
>
>
>
> All EASILY achievable.
>
>
>
> "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
> news:6df624c82bdd28ac30647312e7d3c6b3@dizum.com...
> > On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 06:10:13 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
> > >news:9d530f6f7a3f8d20dc80c75b049ad634@dizum.com...
> > >> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:59:21 -0400, "TJM" <tjm@nospam> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >I'm an amateur at the desktop NLE game, but I was just curious if
> anyone
> > >is
> > >> >doing HD 1080p editing and compositing using "fairly" affordable
> hardware
> > >> &
> > >> >software (<$5000 total)?
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > >> If you want to edit 1080p HD under the pretense of anything other
than
> a
> > >> joke in 2004, you need to bite the bullet and run Discreet's Fire on
a
> > >> 8-CPU SGI Onyx 2. PC hardware chokes under the bandwidth
requirements
> of
> > >> 1080p HD.
> > >>
> > >way way over kill.
> >
> > 1920 x 1080 x 60 x 3 = ~355MB/sec to handle uncompressed RGB 1080p
video.
> > Good luck finding 1080p DV codec
> > (http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html#DV50formats) if you want any
> > sort of compression -- 1080i is as high as I think it goes.
> >
> > PCI gets saturated at <133MB/sec -- real life saturation is ~100MB/sec..
> > PCI-X can handle up to 533MB/sec in the lab -- good luck in real life,
try
> > 400MB/sec MAX.
> >
> > You think you are gonna get any sort if decent performance off of ATA
raid
> > arrays? You gotta go FC-AL or SAN.
> >
> > How many people do you know that are doing even 720p on PCs?
> >
> > 1080p HD is a bandwidth nightmare. Good luck trying to put something
> > together in 2004. Let me know how it goes.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:4489e29d25e907de496c51d9a558a8ae@dizum.com...
> On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:51:35 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:
>
> >Hello... Nomen.. where'd ya go?
>
> I have a life besides RVD.
>
> >"nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote in message
> >newsJ0xc.6761$DR1.1986@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> >>
> >> Not working in HD at the moment but I found these also..
> >>
> >>
> >> 720p HDTV uncompressed:
> >> 8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 110.48 MB per/sec, or 398 GB per/hr.
> >> 10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 121.52 MB per/sec, or 438 GB per/hr.
> >> 1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed:
> >> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
> >> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.
> >>
> >> And from Decklink's Site:
> >> http://www.blackmagic-design.com/site/25support.htm
>
> [snip]
>
> >> 1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed;
> >> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 99.53 MB per/sec, or 358 GB per/hr.
> >> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 109.43 MB per/sec, or 394 GB per/hr.
> >>
> >> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 103.68 MB per/sec, or 373 GB per/hr.
> >> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 114.05 MB per/sec, or 411 GB per/hr.
> >>
> >> 8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 124.29 MB per/sec, or 447 GB per/hr.
> >> 10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 136.72 MB per/sec, or 492 GB per/hr.
> >>
> >> All EASILY achievable.
>
> Show us how it's done. Put a system together

Send me some money and I can certainly put a system together. .



>
> You probably think editing in DV25 using Windows 95, an i80486DX2-66 CPU,
> 32MB of RAM and a 340MB IDE HD running in PIO mode is easily achievable
too.

I started editing 5:1 uncompressed 720x480 on a 3540Mhz PIII using the DPS
PVR (1995). And went to DV editing with the same PC. I have only been
writing software and designing hardware for 26 years so I may not understand
it as well as an asswipe might.

>
> You're gonna need something like an Escalade 9500S-8 running in a
> motherboard that has 64-bit 66MHz PCI slots with 6+ 250GB 7200 SATA HDs in
> RAID 0 config. Then, get a dual Xeon or Opteron MB with the appropriate
> CPUs, RAM, software all working together. And it'll probably render the
> 1080p HD to MPEG-2 at <4 frames per second, and that's without any
effects.

Would that be a Cadillac Escalade?

Render? Rendering at 4FPS would be awesome. MY FCP system can barely do
that. Playback, however is a different story. You do know what rendering is
eh?


>
> Oh, and how are you doing to get this source footage into your PC to even
> work with 1080p HD?

an SDI HD card will work fine.

>
> Why don't you find someone who is doing REAL work in 1080p HD using PCs
> and have them come here and tell us how it's done?

I have another life besides RVD

>
> It's done with Discreet Fire/Smoke with SGI hardware, not PCs.

Online finishing.. not editing.
>
>

You're just shooting off your mouth my friend. Ignoring the numbers I put up
for you. Using SGIs to EDIT HD, the SGI suites are a bit much $$ for
that... . They ARE using FCP, XSERVE, AJA and a other solutions to edit HD.
And DaVinci for Color Correction. Most edit HD as downconverted DV and
online using uncompressed FCP/AJA, SGI or whatever...

I'm done here.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:04:57 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:

>"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
>news:4489e29d25e907de496c51d9a558a8ae@dizum.com...

[snip]

>> It's done with Discreet Fire/Smoke with SGI hardware, not PCs.
>
>Online finishing.. not editing.

<http://www4.discreet.com/smoke/>

| smoke is an all-in-one integrated creative EDITING and finishing
| system, offering SD to HD scalability, unmatched speed, and a high
| return on investment.

<http://www4.discreet.com/fire/>

| fire is the ultimate non-compressed, non-linear EDITING and finishing
| system designed for completing the most demanding, complex projects.

>You're just shooting off your mouth my friend. Ignoring the numbers I put
up
>for you.

Nope. Capturing >100MB/sec on a RAID to a standard PC (32-bit PCI) is not
realistic. 1080p/60 takes >300MB/sec sustained read/writes, which just
MIGHT be obtainable using RAID 0 with 10-12 WD Raptors. Again, good luck.

>Using SGIs to EDIT HD, the SGI suites are a bit much $$ for
>that... . They ARE using FCP, XSERVE, AJA and a other solutions to edit HD.

Not 1080p/60.

>And DaVinci for Color Correction. Most edit HD as downconverted DV and
>online using uncompressed FCP/AJA

Not 1080p/60.

>I'm done here.

Good.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:90db68c6b5732590b2a0a23ec0b4c42f@dizum.com...
> On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 14:04:57 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:
>
> >"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
> >news:4489e29d25e907de496c51d9a558a8ae@dizum.com...
>
> [snip]
>
> >> It's done with Discreet Fire/Smoke with SGI hardware, not PCs.
> >
> >Online finishing.. not editing.
>
> <http://www4.discreet.com/smoke/>
>
> | smoke is an all-in-one integrated creative EDITING and finishing
> | system, offering SD to HD scalability, unmatched speed, and a high
> | return on investment.
>
> <http://www4.discreet.com/fire/>
>
> | fire is the ultimate non-compressed, non-linear EDITING and finishing
> | system designed for completing the most demanding, complex projects.
>

YES.... BUT NO ONE USES IT TO EDIT.. JUST FINISH...

(whew)






> >You're just shooting off your mouth my friend. Ignoring the numbers I put
> up
> >for you.
>
> Nope. Capturing >100MB/sec on a RAID to a standard PC (32-bit PCI) is not
> realistic. 1080p/60 takes >300MB/sec sustained read/writes, which just
> MIGHT be obtainable using RAID 0 with 10-12 WD Raptors. Again, good luck.
>
> >Using SGIs to EDIT HD, the SGI suites are a bit much $$ for
> >that... . They ARE using FCP, XSERVE, AJA and a other solutions to edit
HD.
>
> Not 1080p/60.
>
> >And DaVinci for Color Correction. Most edit HD as downconverted DV and
> >online using uncompressed FCP/AJA
>
> Not 1080p/60.
>
> >I'm done here.
>
> Good.
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

In the world I work in HD is downconverted to DV and cut that way. It is
tens of thousands of dollars cheaper. That's the common method to cut HD.
And finishing is done in uncompressed online on whatever .. doesn't matter.
Only a few who own the machines edit uncompressed on SGI/DISCREET systems.
If they aren't renting the time to online other people's work.

Hope that clears up your misunderstanding of what I said.


"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:3bf78ef18b056fefd065bf49be02a825@dizum.com...
> On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 14:08:43 GMT, "nappy" <no_spam_@sorry.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >> >not editing.
>
> [snip]
>
> >YES....BUT NO ONE USES IT TO EDIT.. JUST FINISH...
>
> Oh, "NO", now "YES"... Hmmm.... Would you like some butter and syrup to
> go with your "waffle"?
>
> > BUT NO ONE USES IT TO EDIT..
>
> | Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:24:26 UT
> | Subject: 1080p HDTV Question
> | To: xXxXX@xxXXx.XxX
> | From: info@liquidlightstudios.com
> |
> | On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 02:06:24AM -0700, XxXXXxX wrote:
> |
> | > Hello. What do you guys typically use to edit 1080p HDTV?
> |
> | Discreet Fire.
>
>