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Field Order- Is Ulead incorrect??

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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July 4, 2004 1:35:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

As I am awaer of field order is defined as DV is Bottom Field First and
Analogue (TV/VCR) is Top Field First.

I am aware that Ulead confuses the issue in that it names then as A or B,
which is opposite to some other apps, but as I see it this is just a naming
convention issue.

On Uleads site it states that field order is dependent on whether the source
is PAL or NTSC.
http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmffaq.htm

Q: I have captured a video, but it appears jerky, or it flickers. What
do I do?
A: Before you start capturing, you may need to configure the Field
order settings. Depending on your system, you might have to change the Field
order setting according to your video record and output format. The field
order for PAL video is normally A, and for NTSC it is B, but this can vary
according to your capture device. If the field order that you have selected
causes your video to flicker in playback, change it to the other option. Do
a test with a short video clip with a lot of camera pans and movement.



Surel;y this is incorrect, as isnt it whether the source is Digital Video or
Analogue video, and irrelevant whether it is PAL or NTSC?


Comments anyone and everyone?

Regards

Tony
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 1:35:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

"Tony" <tdale@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:a6vFc.6674$LT3.261677@news.xtra.co.nz...
> As I am awaer of field order is defined as DV is Bottom Field First and
> Analogue (TV/VCR) is Top Field First.
>
> I am aware that Ulead confuses the issue in that it names then as A or B,
> which is opposite to some other apps, but as I see it this is just a naming
> convention issue.
>
> On Uleads site it states that field order is dependent on whether the source
> is PAL or NTSC.
> http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmffaq.htm
>
> Q: I have captured a video, but it appears jerky, or it flickers. What
> do I do?
> A: Before you start capturing, you may need to configure the Field
> order settings. Depending on your system, you might have to change the Field
> order setting according to your video record and output format. The field
> order for PAL video is normally A, and for NTSC it is B, but this can vary
> according to your capture device. If the field order that you have selected
> causes your video to flicker in playback, change it to the other option. Do
> a test with a short video clip with a lot of camera pans and movement.
>
>
>
> Surel;y this is incorrect, as isnt it whether the source is Digital Video or
> Analogue video, and irrelevant whether it is PAL or NTSC?

The situation is more complex than either your, or Ulead's, simple explanation
captures. I can't go into it in detail, but I will tell you that considering just the analog
signal sent to the TV, the field order is different for PAL and NTSC. That is defined
by specifications for analog transmission. But DV is not an analog transmission
format so it need not adhere to those specs. It has its own spec, which is bottom
field first.

Don
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 1:36:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

"Donald Graft" <abc@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:XhxFc.16395$MB3.8544@attbi_s04...
> "Tony" <tdale@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:a6vFc.6674$LT3.261677@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > As I am awaer of field order is defined as DV is Bottom Field First and
> > Analogue (TV/VCR) is Top Field First.
> >
> > I am aware that Ulead confuses the issue in that it names then as A or
B,
> > which is opposite to some other apps, but as I see it this is just a
naming
> > convention issue.
> >
> > On Uleads site it states that field order is dependent on whether the
source
> > is PAL or NTSC.
> > http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmffaq.htm
> >
> > Q: I have captured a video, but it appears jerky, or it flickers.
What
> > do I do?
> > A: Before you start capturing, you may need to configure the Field
> > order settings. Depending on your system, you might have to change the
Field
> > order setting according to your video record and output format. The
field
> > order for PAL video is normally A, and for NTSC it is B, but this can
vary
> > according to your capture device. If the field order that you have
selected
> > causes your video to flicker in playback, change it to the other option.
Do
> > a test with a short video clip with a lot of camera pans and movement.
> >
> >
> >
> > Surel;y this is incorrect, as isnt it whether the source is Digital
Video or
> > Analogue video, and irrelevant whether it is PAL or NTSC?
>
> The situation is more complex than either your, or Ulead's, simple
explanation
> captures. I can't go into it in detail, but I will tell you that
considering just the analog
> signal sent to the TV, the field order is different for PAL and NTSC. That
is defined
> by specifications for analog transmission. But DV is not an analog
transmission
> format so it need not adhere to those specs. It has its own spec, which is
bottom
> field first.
>
> Don

The correct answer is "this can vary according to your capture device". It
doesn't matter what the spec is, it doesn't matter what the video format is,
it ONLY matters how your particular capture device writes files to your hard
drive. Full stop. The field order is a function of the capture hardware,
its drivers, and the software you use.

If your field order is set wrong, it will be obvious when you watch your
final result on a TV. In which case change it and you are done, and you now
know the correct field order for your device.

If the field order is right, there will be no issue with your final product,
and again you are done, and you now know the field order of your particular
device.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 1:36:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Donald Graft wrote:

> The situation is more complex than either your, or Ulead's, simple explanation
> captures. I can't go into it in detail, but I will tell you that considering just the analog
> signal sent to the TV, the field order is different for PAL and NTSC. That is defined
> by specifications for analog transmission. But DV is not an analog transmission
> format so it need not adhere to those specs. It has its own spec, which is bottom
> field first.

I think the main thing is to do the experiment. The answer is either one
or the other. I don't know whether A or B corresponds to lower field
first, but I just had a project where it made a BIG difference. I was
outputting the result of a Cool 3D animation. At first I did it
frame-based, because I was led to believe that was faultless. The
animation flickered. So I did two more attempts, one with what they call
Field order A, and the other with Field order B. The Field order A was
the correct, smooth one, for reasons I do not know or care about, as
long as I now know which one to choose next time.

Gary Eickmeier
July 4, 2004 12:37:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

"Donald Graft" <abc@xyz.com> wrote:

>"Tony" <tdale@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:a6vFc.6674$LT3.261677@news.xtra.co.nz...
>> As I am awaer of field order is defined as DV is Bottom Field First and
>> Analogue (TV/VCR) is Top Field First.
>>
>> I am aware that Ulead confuses the issue in that it names then as A or B,
>> which is opposite to some other apps, but as I see it this is just a naming
>> convention issue.
>>
>> On Uleads site it states that field order is dependent on whether the source
>> is PAL or NTSC.
>> http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmffaq.htm
>>
>> Q: I have captured a video, but it appears jerky, or it flickers. What
>> do I do?
>> A: Before you start capturing, you may need to configure the Field
>> order settings. Depending on your system, you might have to change the Field
>> order setting according to your video record and output format. The field
>> order for PAL video is normally A, and for NTSC it is B, but this can vary
>> according to your capture device. If the field order that you have selected
>> causes your video to flicker in playback, change it to the other option. Do
>> a test with a short video clip with a lot of camera pans and movement.
>>
>>
>>
>> Surel;y this is incorrect, as isnt it whether the source is Digital Video or
>> Analogue video, and irrelevant whether it is PAL or NTSC?
>
>The situation is more complex than either your, or Ulead's, simple explanation
>captures. I can't go into it in detail, but I will tell you that considering just the analog
>signal sent to the TV, the field order is different for PAL and NTSC. That is defined
>by specifications for analog transmission. But DV is not an analog transmission
>format so it need not adhere to those specs. It has its own spec, which is bottom
>field first.
>
>Don
>
>
Bottom field = field A ??
July 4, 2004 12:48:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

Thanks for these comments, very clear now. I shall document any scenarios I
have for capture (and also my GF who lives in the US)

To clarify one point, can I check by watching the capture on the PC or does
it have to be on the TV?
If it needs to be on the TV, can this be checked by wathcing the capture by
TV Out or does it need to be authored?

Thanks a lot for this

Cheers
Tony
New Zealand

Im your PAL!



"Tony" <tdale@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:a6vFc.6674$LT3.261677@news.xtra.co.nz...
> As I am awaer of field order is defined as DV is Bottom Field First and
> Analogue (TV/VCR) is Top Field First.
>
> I am aware that Ulead confuses the issue in that it names then as A or B,
> which is opposite to some other apps, but as I see it this is just a
> naming convention issue.
>
> On Uleads site it states that field order is dependent on whether the
> source is PAL or NTSC.
> http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmffaq.htm
>
> Q: I have captured a video, but it appears jerky, or it flickers.
> What do I do?
> A: Before you start capturing, you may need to configure the Field
> order settings. Depending on your system, you might have to change the
> Field order setting according to your video record and output format. The
> field order for PAL video is normally A, and for NTSC it is B, but this
> can vary according to your capture device. If the field order that you
> have selected causes your video to flicker in playback, change it to the
> other option. Do a test with a short video clip with a lot of camera pans
> and movement.
>
>
>
> Surel;y this is incorrect, as isnt it whether the source is Digital Video
> or Analogue video, and irrelevant whether it is PAL or NTSC?
>
>
> Comments anyone and everyone?
>
> Regards
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 12:48:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Tony wrote:

> Thanks for these comments, very clear now. I shall document any scenarios I
> have for capture (and also my GF who lives in the US)
>
> To clarify one point, can I check by watching the capture on the PC or does
> it have to be on the TV?

On the TV.

> If it needs to be on the TV, can this be checked by wathcing the capture by
> TV Out or does it need to be authored?
>
> Thanks a lot for this

I think once it's captured, you can play it back from the timeline onto
your TV monitor and see if it is correct.

Gary Eickmeier
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 2:28:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

> Bottom field = field A ??

Yes. My analogue capture card requires that I choose Upper Field First in
most software but in Ulead products I have to choose Field Order B for it to
look right.
Anonymous
July 4, 2004 8:33:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,alt.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.tech (More info?)

It HAS to be on a TV. PC monitors don't use fields, they display the whole
frame at once and are called "non-interlaced". meaning each frame is scanned
from top-to-bottom, left-to-right-at a speed specified by the horizontal
refresh rate.

A television, on the other hand, scans every other line, every 1/60 of a
second - so first the odd lines are scanned, then 1/60th of a second later,
the even numbered lines are scanned, in reality, you see a full frame every
1/30th of a second, hence the 30FPS standard in NTSC (Actually 29.97 is the
true frame rate). I don't know about PAL, but imagine it works on a similar
basis, with a slower 25FPS rate.

This is why you must really watch the video on a television. For PC use, I
don't think it matters which filed order you choose as the whole frame is
scanned at once. I believe it must be authored then watched on a TV, not
played on a PC connected to a television (I could be wrong, though)


"Tony" <tdale@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:ZYEFc.6766$LT3.266260@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Thanks for these comments, very clear now. I shall document any scenarios
I
> have for capture (and also my GF who lives in the US)
>
> To clarify one point, can I check by watching the capture on the PC or
does
> it have to be on the TV?
> If it needs to be on the TV, can this be checked by wathcing the capture
by
> TV Out or does it need to be authored?
>
> Thanks a lot for this
>
> Cheers
> Tony
> New Zealand
>
> Im your PAL!
>
>
>
> "Tony" <tdale@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:a6vFc.6674$LT3.261677@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > As I am awaer of field order is defined as DV is Bottom Field First and
> > Analogue (TV/VCR) is Top Field First.
> >
> > I am aware that Ulead confuses the issue in that it names then as A or
B,
> > which is opposite to some other apps, but as I see it this is just a
> > naming convention issue.
> >
> > On Uleads site it states that field order is dependent on whether the
> > source is PAL or NTSC.
> > http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmffaq.htm
> >
> > Q: I have captured a video, but it appears jerky, or it flickers.
> > What do I do?
> > A: Before you start capturing, you may need to configure the Field
> > order settings. Depending on your system, you might have to change the
> > Field order setting according to your video record and output format.
The
> > field order for PAL video is normally A, and for NTSC it is B, but this
> > can vary according to your capture device. If the field order that you
> > have selected causes your video to flicker in playback, change it to the
> > other option. Do a test with a short video clip with a lot of camera
pans
> > and movement.
> >
> >
> >
> > Surel;y this is incorrect, as isnt it whether the source is Digital
Video
> > or Analogue video, and irrelevant whether it is PAL or NTSC?
> >
> >
> > Comments anyone and everyone?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 3:29:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:33:17 -0400, "Guess Who"
<chippe01@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:

>It HAS to be on a TV. PC monitors don't use fields, they display the whole
>frame at once and are called "non-interlaced".

Right, and you can go through all the painful process of encoding,
authoring and watching the TV to find out if you are using the right
field order or not. But fortunately you can also find it out in the
monitor by separating the fields. There's a VirtualDub filter,
"UnviewFields", that lets you see Field A on top of Field B. By
watching the OutputVideo display, you can discern the right field
order. It takes less work than going all the way to the TV.
Anonymous
July 5, 2004 3:30:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:29:19 +0200, Bariloche
<bariloche@bariloche.com> wrote:

>There's a VirtualDub filter,
>"UnviewFields"

Sorry, it is "ViewFields" -unview reunites them again.
!