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harddisk recording with MiniDV in the field

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October 5, 2004 3:12:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Hello All,

I'm fairly new to digital video and after recording a stage play the
other night, I'm about to capture about 6 hours of material.

I was hoping to find a solution to capture faster than realtime, but
have learned this is not possible with the MiniDV system.
(If I'm wrong, please tell :) )

So, I've been looking around for a faster method of shooting/capturing
and found JVC's DR-DV5000 camcorder (price around 6000-7000 euro)
which can be equipped with a hard disk unit to shoot directly to HDD.
Awesome!

Only, I've got MiniDV money (if any money at all ;) ....
After browsing Google for a while, I've only found 'solutions' which let
you shoot directly to HDD if you attach the camera to your PC using your
MiniDV camera...

I've been searching all over the internet this night to answer this
question:

Is it possible to shoot directly to a HDD using any MiniDV camera 'in
the field'?

Anybody?

Thanks!

Tim
Anonymous
October 5, 2004 3:12:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Tim" <spam@broz.nl> wrote in message
news:4161bd03$0$769$3a628fcd@reader10.nntp.hccnet.nl...
> Hello All,
>
> I'm fairly new to digital video and after recording a stage play the
> other night, I'm about to capture about 6 hours of material.
>
> I was hoping to find a solution to capture faster than realtime, but
> have learned this is not possible with the MiniDV system.
> (If I'm wrong, please tell :) )
>
> So, I've been looking around for a faster method of shooting/capturing
> and found JVC's DR-DV5000 camcorder (price around 6000-7000 euro)
> which can be equipped with a hard disk unit to shoot directly to HDD.
> Awesome!
>
> Only, I've got MiniDV money (if any money at all ;) ....
> After browsing Google for a while, I've only found 'solutions' which let
> you shoot directly to HDD if you attach the camera to your PC using your
> MiniDV camera...
>
> I've been searching all over the internet this night to answer this
> question:
>
> Is it possible to shoot directly to a HDD using any MiniDV camera 'in
> the field'?

As long as the miniDV camera has a 1394/firewire port and the laptop has a
port as well, you can do this. I used to record direct to hard-drive doing
multicamera shoots and running the output of the switcher to a miniDV camera
which, in turn, was connected to my laptop. It worked fine.

Bear in mind that miniDV requires a little over 13 gigabytes over storage
for an hour of video.


>
> Anybody?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tim
Anonymous
October 5, 2004 3:12:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Look at the FireStore.
"Tim" <spam@broz.nl> wrote in message
news:4161bd03$0$769$3a628fcd@reader10.nntp.hccnet.nl...
> Hello All,
>
> I'm fairly new to digital video and after recording a stage play the other
> night, I'm about to capture about 6 hours of material.
>
> I was hoping to find a solution to capture faster than realtime, but have
> learned this is not possible with the MiniDV system.
> (If I'm wrong, please tell :) )
>
> So, I've been looking around for a faster method of shooting/capturing
> and found JVC's DR-DV5000 camcorder (price around 6000-7000 euro)
> which can be equipped with a hard disk unit to shoot directly to HDD.
> Awesome!
>
> Only, I've got MiniDV money (if any money at all ;) ....
> After browsing Google for a while, I've only found 'solutions' which let
> you shoot directly to HDD if you attach the camera to your PC using your
> MiniDV camera...
>
> I've been searching all over the internet this night to answer this
> question:
>
> Is it possible to shoot directly to a HDD using any MiniDV camera 'in the
> field'?
>
> Anybody?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Tim
Related resources
Anonymous
October 5, 2004 3:44:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 22:13:53 GMT, "a-e-i-o-u-" <joseft@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>Look at the FireStore.

That's starting to get interesting. But don't all DV cameras require a
tape running to operate? I don't think my Optura Pi will do anything
without a tape.

I recently wore out the first few minutes of a DV tape, because I was
rewinding & replaying it to solve a computer/capture problem. (Yes,
next time I'll stop & restart, if possible). I thought back to the
Sony Mini_DV videocam I had a few years ago - it had some interesting
ideas and advantages, but too many shortcomings to live with in
regular use. My son recently visited, with a Sony mini-DVD videocam -
again, very interesting but the resolution (& perhaps some other
specs) were not enough to tempt me to go that way yet.

What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera separate.

--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
October 5, 2004 7:17:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

John W. Hall wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 22:13:53 GMT, "a-e-i-o-u-" <joseft@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Look at the FireStore.
>
>
> That's starting to get interesting. But don't all DV cameras require a
> tape running to operate? I don't think my Optura Pi will do anything
> without a tape.

Not quite. My Sony DCR -PC101 does not. If I go to the VCR mode I can
switch the Firewire port on. I use this to capture TV. The only tool
that supports streaming to the PC though is DVIO.EXE (google for it, its
freeware).

Andre

--
----------------------------------
http://www.aguntherphotography.com
October 5, 2004 2:06:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Hi!

Thanks for the replies.

In fact this is the same system (FireStore FS-3) that I was referring
to for JVC DVCAM camcorders! :) 

Can't believe I was so close and couldn't see...

Anyway, thanks for the eye-opener and let's wait patiently till december
before getting this little gem for about 800 dollars.

Tim

andre wrote:
> John W. Hall wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 22:13:53 GMT, "a-e-i-o-u-" <joseft@sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Look at the FireStore.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's starting to get interesting. But don't all DV cameras require a
>> tape running to operate? I don't think my Optura Pi will do anything
>> without a tape.
>
>
> Not quite. My Sony DCR -PC101 does not. If I go to the VCR mode I can
> switch the Firewire port on. I use this to capture TV. The only tool
> that supports streaming to the PC though is DVIO.EXE (google for it, its
> freeware).
>
> Andre
>
Anonymous
October 7, 2004 7:19:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:44:23 GMT, John W. Hall
<wweexxsseessssaa@shaw.ca> wrote:


>What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
>i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera separate.

This just in, but not yet...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/07/blu-ray_camcord...

--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Anonymous
October 7, 2004 11:54:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:44:23 GMT, John W. Hall
> <wweexxsseessssaa@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>> What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
>> i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera separate.


If the Firestore products from
http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/firestore.h... don't interest
you, take a look at http://www.nnovia.com/
Some folks like it a lot better - and it's a bit cheaper as well.

Mike
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 6:42:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:54:51 -0400, "Mike Kujbida"
<kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:44:23 GMT, John W. Hall
>> <wweexxsseessssaa@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
>>> i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera separate.

>If the Firestore products from
>http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/firestore.h... don't interest
>you, take a look at http://www.nnovia.com/
>Some folks like it a lot better - and it's a bit cheaper as well.

Thanks, Mike. I think my problem is that I'm OK understanding the
HD/DVD/storage end of things, but don't know the camera options well
enough. I'm pretty sure my Optura Pi needs to have a tape running
while shooting, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Could any camera
that does pass-through record to a Firestore or QuickCapture without
running a tape, or do we need some prefessional-level camera for that?
Suggestions?

--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 10:53:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

John W. Hall wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:54:51 -0400, "Mike Kujbida"
> <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>>> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:44:23 GMT, John W. Hall
>>> <wweexxsseessssaa@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
>>>> i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera
>>>> separate.
>
>> If the Firestore products from
>> http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/firestore.h... don't
>> interest you, take a look at http://www.nnovia.com/
>> Some folks like it a lot better - and it's a bit cheaper as well.
>
> Thanks, Mike. I think my problem is that I'm OK understanding the
> HD/DVD/storage end of things, but don't know the camera options well
> enough. I'm pretty sure my Optura Pi needs to have a tape running
> while shooting, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Could any camera
> that does pass-through record to a Firestore or QuickCapture without
> running a tape, or do we need some prefessional-level camera for that?
> Suggestions?


Excellent question John. I think, for the definitive answer, that you'd
have to ask the individual manufacturers.
In the Firestore review at
http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp... the
reviewer specifically says that tape is necessary. However, the same guy
reviewed the Nnovia at
http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp... and didn't
mention it (unless I missed it).

Mike
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 12:31:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Mike Kujbida" <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:2sn9t1F1o0la9U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> John W. Hall wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:54:51 -0400, "Mike Kujbida"
>> <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:44:23 GMT, John W. Hall
>>>> <wweexxsseessssaa@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>> What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
>>>>> i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera
>>>>> separate.
>>
>>> If the Firestore products from
>>> http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/firestore.h... don't
>>> interest you, take a look at http://www.nnovia.com/
>>> Some folks like it a lot better - and it's a bit cheaper as well.
>>
>> Thanks, Mike. I think my problem is that I'm OK understanding the
>> HD/DVD/storage end of things, but don't know the camera options well
>> enough. I'm pretty sure my Optura Pi needs to have a tape running
>> while shooting, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Could any camera
>> that does pass-through record to a Firestore or QuickCapture without
>> running a tape, or do we need some prefessional-level camera for that?
>> Suggestions?
>
Well.. I heard that the XL1 will stay on and pass through if the tape door
is left open. Never had the courage to try that though.. My instinct is to
have it open as short a time as possible..
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 5:40:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

John W. Hall wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 19:54:51 -0400, "Mike Kujbida"
> <kujfam-misleadingspam@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>>On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:44:23 GMT, John W. Hall
>>><wweexxsseessssaa@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>What I'd like to see is a good-quality camera/storage box solution,
>>>>i.e. with the storage & battery on your belt and the camera separate.
>
>
>>If the Firestore products from
>>http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/firestore.h... don't interest
>>you, take a look at http://www.nnovia.com/
>>Some folks like it a lot better - and it's a bit cheaper as well.
>
>
> Thanks, Mike. I think my problem is that I'm OK understanding the
> HD/DVD/storage end of things, but don't know the camera options well
> enough. I'm pretty sure my Optura Pi needs to have a tape running
> while shooting, which is what I'm trying to avoid. Could any camera
> that does pass-through record to a Firestore or QuickCapture without
> running a tape, or do we need some prefessional-level camera for that?
> Suggestions?
>
I have never used any of these hard-disk units, but I have some
knowledge that could be of interest.

My experience is the following:
A switched-on DV camera in "camera mode" will transmit a video signal on
the firewire port at all times.

However, only with a tape running will the DV frames included proper
timecode.

And timecode is something you will definitely want when it comes to
editing..

It is possible (and perhaps some units do it) to "synthesize" the
timecode and let the hard-disk recorder insert valid timecode into the
DV frames before writing to disc.

I do this myself in a special computer application. I never have any
tape in the my cameras, but record to computer hard disk.

/Johan S
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 5:40:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 13:40:48 +0200, Johan Stäck <johan@stack.se>
wrote:

>My experience is the following:
>A switched-on DV camera in "camera mode" will transmit a video signal on
>the firewire port at all times.
>
>However, only with a tape running will the DV frames included proper
>timecode.
>
>And timecode is something you will definitely want when it comes to
>editing..
>
>It is possible (and perhaps some units do it) to "synthesize" the
>timecode and let the hard-disk recorder insert valid timecode into the
>DV frames before writing to disc.
>
>I do this myself in a special computer application. I never have any
>tape in the my cameras, but record to computer hard disk.

This is very interesting, Johan.
Is this 'special application' a commercial product, or you wrote it
yourself, or what? Could one run it in a notebook PC and record to its
HD?

--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 9:35:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

John W. Hall wrote:

>
> This is very interesting, Johan.
> Is this 'special application' a commercial product, or you wrote it
> yourself, or what? Could one run it in a notebook PC and record to its
> HD?
>
The answers to both questions is yes, meaning that I wrote it myself,
and it is (or rather on its way to become) a commercial product.

However it isn't just a "capture application" (it does much more), but I
know how such an application could be written, and (given satisfactory
disk performance) it should run nicely on a notebook PC.
The CPU load when just capturing DV is very low.
My application captures several DV streams in parallel.
It's the preview (if you want it) that costs...

/Johan S
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 9:35:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Johan Stäck wrote:
> John W. Hall wrote:
>
>>
>> This is very interesting, Johan.
>> Is this 'special application' a commercial product, or you wrote it
>> yourself, or what? Could one run it in a notebook PC and record to
>> its HD?
>>
> The answers to both questions is yes, meaning that I wrote it myself,
> and it is (or rather on its way to become) a commercial product.
>
> However it isn't just a "capture application" (it does much more),
> but I know how such an application could be written, and (given
> satisfactory disk performance) it should run nicely on a notebook PC.
> The CPU load when just capturing DV is very low.
> My application captures several DV streams in parallel.
> It's the preview (if you want it) that costs...
>
> /Johan S


Can you give us any hints as to when we might expect to see this app or who
will be marketing it? Any news releases to whet our appetite? If you're
under an NDA, I understand.

Mike
Anonymous
October 10, 2004 5:55:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Mike Kujbida wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Can you give us any hints as to when we might expect to see this app or who
> will be marketing it? Any news releases to whet our appetite? If you're
> under an NDA, I understand.
>
> Mike
>

I am free to give you any information, but I would like to turn the
question around for a while:
What kind of application would you like to have?
What problem needs to be solved?

/Johan S
Anonymous
October 10, 2004 11:22:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Johan Stäck wrote:
> Mike Kujbida wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you give us any hints as to when we might expect to see this app
>> or who will be marketing it? Any news releases to whet our
>> appetite? If you're under an NDA, I understand.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
> I am free to give you any information, but I would like to turn the
> question around for a while:
> What kind of application would you like to have?
> What problem needs to be solved?
>
> /Johan S


Thanks!!
Currently you can only record one stream at a time to a hard drive. What
folks here and elsewhere have been looking for/hoping for a long time is
something that would allow the recording of multiple DV streams (3 would be
nice) simultaneously to a single hard drive. Editing would be done in post
as there are numerous NLEs that allow this. A device like Newtek's Toaster
functions like a video switcher but a lot of us would like to be able to
make those decisions in post.
Is this feasible with what you have in the works? Thanks.

Mike
Anonymous
October 12, 2004 11:44:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

>
>
> Thanks!!
> Currently you can only record one stream at a time to a hard drive. What
> folks here and elsewhere have been looking for/hoping for a long time is
> something that would allow the recording of multiple DV streams (3 would be
> nice) simultaneously to a single hard drive. Editing would be done in post
> as there are numerous NLEs that allow this. A device like Newtek's Toaster
> functions like a video switcher but a lot of us would like to be able to
> make those decisions in post.
> Is this feasible with what you have in the works? Thanks.
>
> Mike
>

Yes, as a matter of fact it is (in a way...).

But I'm doing it for a special purpose right now and that is sports
analysis.

I use several DV cameras to record an athlete from various angles, and
normally I do it in two steps
1. Capture the DV streams to memory.
(It is normally only a few seconds, each stream consumes 3,6 MB per
second and memory is cheap these days....)
2. Write out the data to disk (or discard after replay from memory)

For (2) I have used both AVI and "raw DV". (and also a proprietary format)


I assume that for the kind of application that you have in mind, this
two-step approach would not be applicable. (Assuming you want to record
for longer periods)
However, from what I have learned during my development work, I believe
that it would be quite easy for me to write multiple DV streams directly
to disk.
Of course, you need a disk with good enough capacity to handle the data.
Notebook disks are sometimes (or even often..?) to slow for this.

My "two-step" approach solves the problem with disk performance, since
actual disk-writing doesn't need to be done at real-time speed.
Tests show that on a notebook, typically 1 stream will write *faster"
that real-time ( one 5-second stream writes i 3 seconds), but more than
1 will be slower (E.g. writing three 5-second streams will take 20
seconds). This suggests to me that such a computer will not be able to
handle more than 1 stream for live-to-disk multiple capture.

I do have a setup (3 DV cameras) up and running on my desktop right now,
so I can give it a quick try in the upcoming days....

/Johan
!