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Capturing from Satellite MPEG DVB - Which is best method

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December 10, 2004 2:13:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I was wondering if anyone has had experience capturing video from an
MPEG DVB satellite receiver (like Dish Network, Express Vu, etc)? I
find that the actual video from these sources don't seem to have the
crisp video that you get from the analog video from the BUD (Big Ugly
Dish). I was told on the MPEG DVB newsgroup that the source is run
through a Low Pass filter before encoding to allow them to use a lower
bitrate. I guess that's why to me the picture looks "soft" compared
to good analogue video. THis allows them to fit more channels in the
same bandwidth.

Anyway, I have tried various capture methods (the stream is already
compressed MPEG), and if you capture in say MP2 you get video equal
to what's on screen but file sizes are large for archiving..

I also tried capturing in both MJPEG and HUFFYUV, and Huffyuv gives
the best quality AVI. However, the problem comes in when you try to
further compress it.

I wonder if anyone has come up with a method for archiving their
favorite shows and just what method you have found best compromise
between quality and size? Suggestions?
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 10:30:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Jim <wdxp@cox.net> wrote:
: Anyway, I have tried various capture methods (the stream is already
: compressed MPEG), and if you capture in say MP2 you get video equal
: to what's on screen but file sizes are large for archiving..

I have no experience with DVB capturing, but if you capture as is and try
to re-encode it, you will have worse quality.

: I also tried capturing in both MJPEG and HUFFYUV, and Huffyuv gives
: the best quality AVI. However, the problem comes in when you try to
: further compress it.

Of course. Huffyuv gives you the quality of the stream. But even if you capture
uncompressed, you can't restore the original source material of the broadcast
stations. So then when you compress it, it's the same effect as capturing as
is and then further compress it.

As far as I know the Digital Broadcast has the same MPEG-2 structure as DVDs.
Why don't you just burn them on DVD?

--Leonid
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 10:30:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> As far as I know the Digital Broadcast has the same MPEG-2 structure as
DVDs.
> Why don't you just burn them on DVD?

It's mpeg compressed but not in DVD format and, to my knowledge, you cannot
access the native mpg data stream as it's encoded. It's possible to rip the
decoded mpg file by removing the disk in a Dish PVR but it's more trouble
than it's worth, at least to me. And the mpg data is not in 720X480. I think
there's a Yahoo group called DishRip that explains the process in great
detail.

To answer the op's question, I capture Dish stuff with HuffYUV, edit out
commercials if needed and smooth out the transitions and re-encode with
Procoder using 2-pass VBR. Quality is indistinguishable from the original,
at least on my 32" Sony XBR.

I recently transitioned from a BUD to Dish and, except for the local Fox
affiliate, I have difficulty discerning the difference. If you really look
hard, it's noticeable but only if you really look for it.
Related resources
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 2:04:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Chuck U. Farley <chuckufarley@dyslexia.com> wrote:
:> As far as I know the Digital Broadcast has the same MPEG-2 structure as
: DVDs.
:> Why don't you just burn them on DVD?

: It's mpeg compressed but not in DVD format and, to my knowledge, you cannot
: access the native mpg data stream as it's encoded. It's possible to rip the
: decoded mpg file by removing the disk in a Dish PVR but it's more trouble
: than it's worth, at least to me. And the mpg data is not in 720X480. I think
: there's a Yahoo group called DishRip that explains the process in great
: detail.

So I don't get it. It first records on the Dish's disk and then it gets to the
computer.

Are thre any Digital Tuner cards that copy directly what's being send without
the compression?

--Leonid
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 2:04:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> So I don't get it. It first records on the Dish's disk and then it gets to
the
> computer.

Yes

> Are thre any Digital Tuner cards that copy directly what's being send
without
> the compression?

The signal that is received by the receiver is already mpg compressed on the
uplink so the best you can do is capture in a lossless format and then
re-encode with the best encoder you can use. With the BUD, it's an
uncompressed analog signal that is uplinked so capturing that way only
involves one encode for DVD format.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 4:23:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Chuck U. Farley <chuckufarley@dyslexia.com> wrote:
: The signal that is received by the receiver is already mpg compressed on the
: uplink so the best you can do is capture in a lossless format and then

Hold on.

Can you get this MPEG compressed signal *digitally* with your digital tuner to
your computer?

: re-encode with the best encoder you can use. With the BUD, it's an
: uncompressed analog signal that is uplinked so capturing that way only
: involves one encode for DVD format.

So you need to go analog, right? You can't go digital directly.

--Leonid
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 4:23:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> Hold on.
>
> Can you get this MPEG compressed signal *digitally* with your digital
tuner to
> your computer?

No

>
> : re-encode with the best encoder you can use. With the BUD, it's an
> : uncompressed analog signal that is uplinked so capturing that way only
> : involves one encode for DVD format.
>
> So you need to go analog, right? You can't go digital directly.

Not sure what your question/statement means. BUD's are, by their very
nature, an analog medium, it's the only way they can go. Nothing is
compressed on either the uplink or downlink side. It's only when you capture
that signal, via S-Video, composite, or RF that the signal is converted to a
digital format, in my case, as an avi file via the HuffYUV codec.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 9:03:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Chuck U. Farley <chuckufarley@dyslexia.com> wrote:
: Not sure what your question/statement means. BUD's are, by their very
: nature, an analog medium, it's the only way they can go. Nothing is
: compressed on either the uplink or downlink side. It's only when you capture
: that signal, via S-Video, composite, or RF that the signal is converted to a
: digital format, in my case, as an avi file via the HuffYUV codec.

I was talking about the tuner for digital satellite that transmit the signal
as mpeg-2 files. Yes BUD transmits the signal as analog. For that you any
analog capture card will work. But if I want to record the signal which
is digital coming from the digital satellite, is it possible to record it
as is?

--Leonid
December 11, 2004 12:27:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 15:05:14 -0500, "Chuck U. Farley"
<chuckufarley@dyslexia.com> wrote:

>
>
>To answer the op's question, I capture Dish stuff with HuffYUV, edit out
>commercials if needed and smooth out the transitions and re-encode with
>Procoder using 2-pass VBR. Quality is indistinguishable from the original,
>at least on my 32" Sony XBR.

Chuck;

After the editing do you try to reduce the data rate to reduce file
size? When you capture what frame size do you use, 640 x 480 or
352 x 480 or what? I have ProCoder and was wondering if you could
give me a bit more detail?

You are the second person that told me they can't notice any
difference between the BUD video and MPEG DVB, but the difference to
me is glaring and stands out like a sore thumb.

If you could pass along the parameters you use in your recode I'd like
to give them a try. THanks.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 7:15:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On a sunny day (11 Dec 2004 06:03:48 GMT) it happened Leonid Makarovsky
<venom@cs.bu.edu> wrote in <cpe2k4$8hn$1@news3.bu.edu>:

>Chuck U. Farley <chuckufarley@dyslexia.com> wrote:
>: Not sure what your question/statement means. BUD's are, by their very
>: nature, an analog medium, it's the only way they can go. Nothing is
>: compressed on either the uplink or downlink side. It's only when you capture
>: that signal, via S-Video, composite, or RF that the signal is converted to a
>: digital format, in my case, as an avi file via the HuffYUV codec.
>
>I was talking about the tuner for digital satellite that transmit the signal
>as mpeg-2 files. Yes BUD transmits the signal as analog. For that you any
>analog capture card will work. But if I want to record the signal which
>is digital coming from the digital satellite, is it possible to record it
>as is?
I have been doing just that for years, here ine Europe.ge the cheapest possible DTV card (without decoider).
Record the transport stream.
That includes the original mpeg2.
because some stations (sometimes) do use GOP size > 15) it is not always
DVD spec, but it may staill play very well on that.
I dunno about US, but Hauppauge.com has cards that work in Europe, and
I would be surprized if they had no US cards.
Foir this sort of stuff see my site:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/dvd/
JP
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 7:15:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> I have been doing just that for years, here ine Europe.ge the cheapest
possible DTV card (without decoider).
> Record the transport stream.
> That includes the original mpeg2.

Are the sat signals not encrypted in Europe? AFAIK, with Dish and DirectTV
here in the U.S., there is no way to access the data stream before the
receiver/decoder as it's an encrypted signal. To my knowledge, this process
in this group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dishrip/

is the only way to directly access the raw mpeg data from U.S. sats and, as
I said before, the process isn't worth it to me.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 2:34:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On a sunny day (Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:38:02 -0500) it happened "Chuck U. Farley"
<chuckufarley@dyslexia.com> wrote in
<JlFud.67925$fY.45312@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:

>> I have been doing just that for years, here ine Europe.ge the cheapest
>possible DTV card (without decoider).
>> Record the transport stream.
>> That includes the original mpeg2.
>
>Are the sat signals not encrypted in Europe? AFAIK, with Dish and DirectTV
>here in the U.S.
Some are, many not.

>, there is no way to access the data stream before the
>receiver/decoder as it's an encrypted signal.
This is not correct, on cards like the Nexus / SkyStar1 you cannot record
the encrypted stream, but on SkyStar2 and wintv nova and other budged cards you
can.
The reason is that in the first 2 cards the hardware will intercept an encrypted
stream.
Once you have recorded an encrypted .ts you still need to decrypt it with a
valid key op cause.
Are you good in gambling ;-)?

>To my knowledge, this process
>in this group:


>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dishrip/
>
>is the only way to directly access the raw mpeg data from U.S. sats and, as
>I said before, the process isn't worth it to me.
I dunno, I can record it no problem.
Not illegal recording an encrypted TS...
JP
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 12:41:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

> After the editing do you try to reduce the data rate to reduce file
> size? When you capture what frame size do you use, 640 x 480 or
> 352 x 480 or what? I have ProCoder and was wondering if you could
> give me a bit more detail?

I capture to an avi file with an ATI All In Wonder card using the Huffyuv
codec at 640X480 via an S-Video connection from the Dish DVR. I then encode
with Procoder using the standard DVD NTSC template but change to
Mastering-Quality and 2-pass VBR.

> You are the second person that told me they can't notice any
> difference between the BUD video and MPEG DVB, but the difference to
> me is glaring and stands out like a sore thumb.

A lot depends on the channel I'm watching. Like I said, my local Fox
affiliate is almost unwatchable during the low light scenes of 24. Luckily,
that and football are the only things I watch on Fox. When recording HBO or
other premium channels, the picture quality is quite good, almost
indiscernible from a BUD system. It's there if you _really_ look for it but
usually only on fast moving/low light situations. And remember, I'm only
watching on a 32" set.

> If you could pass along the parameters you use in your recode I'd like
> to give them a try. THanks.

Good luck.
!