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Answers to Vic's DVStorm Posts

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Anonymous
December 13, 2004 1:14:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Vic continues to post Canopus forum gripes concerning the Adobe Premiere Pro
plug-in for the DVStorm2. Please note he also fails to include the dates of
these posts. Canopus has addressed these concerns with updates for the
plug-in. I am currently using the latest plug-in for Premiere Pro and find
it to work smoothly. Please be aware that no particular software package
works perfectly 100% of the time. We all know this.

The DVStorm2 is a realtime hardware card. For those reading this that do not
know it, realtime hardware editing is completely different than the realtime
preview editing used with OHCI cards. With realtime hardware the output is
in realtime at full resolution and can be output to tape without further
rendering. Realtime preview is low resolution even if the output is going to
the camcorder screen during editing, but must be rendered to full
resolutions before output can occur. There is a big difference in the two
types of editing in spite of their similarities.

It should also be brought to light that realtime editing cards are, and
probably always will be, the type of hardware that will not perform properly
on all mainboard choices. This is the most specific of the issues for proper
usage of a realtime editing card, unlike an OHCI 1394 card. The user of a
realtime hardware card cannot simply buy a mainboard because it fits their
budget, or their friends, family members, or the local computer dealer told
them it is a good mainboard. Good mainboards are for good computers used for
most types of applications. Realtime hardware editing cards require good
mainboards for realtime hardware editing. Not having this knowledge is where
99% of troublesome operation of these types of cards originates!

As an example of this, a customer brought his realtime hardware card and a
new mainboard to me asking to have it configured for him. He had been trying
without success and thought I might know some "magic trick" to getting the
thing configured. The mainboard was a brand-new model from Asus just
recently released. He remembered I had told him about a model of Asus
mainboard that would work with realtime hardware cards, and assumed that any
Asus board would suffice. He never bothered to ask which model before making
his purchase.

I performed a single attempt at the configuration and saw immediately that
it was futile. After some prodding from him I continued for the next 4
hours without success. All the while telling him I did not believe it would
ever work. We got partial functionality, never full usage. He got angry at
me, paid the bill grumbling all the while and left angy with me for not
having gotten the thing working. You can't put a square peg in a round hole,
and you can't get a realtime editing card to work on whatever mainboard you
see that catches your eye and fits your budget.

My advice is to pay attention to the manufacturer's tested mainboard list
and purchase one of those models. Even if you have to spend a little more
than you wanted to, it will save you a lot of headache in the future. The
right components coupled with the right sucession of software and driver
installation will yield smooth operation of the editing system as a whole.

Note that none of the complaining parties in the posts have specified which
mainboard they have.

Realtime hardware editing cards can also have problems with certain VGA
cards, and there are specific VGA cards known to work the best with the
realtime editing hardware cards. Yes, the wrong VGA card can affect the
performance of the realtime editing card. I have personally tested quite a
few that did in fact make the playback lag the playback and other functions
with the editing software. One that comes to mind was a GeForce FX something
or other, it's been a long time and I can't remember the complete model
number. From that point on I stuck to manufacturer's know tested VGA
chipsets.

All hardware editing cards have known issues. Known issues don't alway
pretain to all tested mainboards, some have certain ones that others many
not, while some may not suffer from the issues whatsover. With all the
differing mainboards it would be good to see which have what issues if they
exist, but creating a specific list of this nature tends to get repetitive
if issues are shared by certain models. So an all inclusive list without
specific models streamlines the operation of creating the list. I personally
have seen updates to software that listed fixes to issues I had not
encountered using the hardware. Nonetheless it was fixed. It was still a
non-issue for me, but it was fixed anyway!

Why Vic has a bug up his behind at Canopus I can't really say, nor do I
really care. I am not defending Canopus in particular, but attempting to
defend the right for you people to know what causes problems and how they
may be avoided when considering the purchase of a realtime editing card
whether from Canopus, Matrox, Leitech, NewTek, or whatever manufacturer it
may be. I did note that when I posted a direct question to Vic concerning
the mainboard and system specs of his computer he ignored my question in
favor of posting more complaints from the Canopus forums. This leads me to
believe he knows he has the wrong mainboard, etc. for fear I will point out
the error and negate his self-given right to trash Canopus on this forum.


--
Larry Johnson
Digital Video Solutions
webmaster@digitalvideosolutions.com
http://www.digitalvideosolutions.com
877-227-6281 Toll Free Sales Assistance
386-672-1941 Customer Service
386-672-1907 Technical Support
386-676-1515 Fax
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 10:44:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Larry, very well said.

Also, the user forums are a very good source to getting information from
people with experience. The available lists of compatible mainboards,
chipsets and graphic cards are not allways up to date. You can always ask
for guidance on the forum.

Peter

"Digital Video Solutions" <video@digitalvideosolutions.com> skrev i
meddelandet news:o p3vd.156126$6w6.61047@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Vic continues to post Canopus forum gripes concerning the Adobe Premiere
Pro
> plug-in for the DVStorm2. Please note he also fails to include the dates
of
> these posts. Canopus has addressed these concerns with updates for the
> plug-in. I am currently using the latest plug-in for Premiere Pro and find
> it to work smoothly. Please be aware that no particular software package
> works perfectly 100% of the time. We all know this.
>
> The DVStorm2 is a realtime hardware card. For those reading this that do
not
> know it, realtime hardware editing is completely different than the
realtime
> preview editing used with OHCI cards. With realtime hardware the output is
> in realtime at full resolution and can be output to tape without further
> rendering. Realtime preview is low resolution even if the output is going
to
> the camcorder screen during editing, but must be rendered to full
> resolutions before output can occur. There is a big difference in the two
> types of editing in spite of their similarities.
>
> It should also be brought to light that realtime editing cards are, and
> probably always will be, the type of hardware that will not perform
properly
> on all mainboard choices. This is the most specific of the issues for
proper
> usage of a realtime editing card, unlike an OHCI 1394 card. The user of a
> realtime hardware card cannot simply buy a mainboard because it fits their
> budget, or their friends, family members, or the local computer dealer
told
> them it is a good mainboard. Good mainboards are for good computers used
for
> most types of applications. Realtime hardware editing cards require good
> mainboards for realtime hardware editing. Not having this knowledge is
where
> 99% of troublesome operation of these types of cards originates!
>
> As an example of this, a customer brought his realtime hardware card and a
> new mainboard to me asking to have it configured for him. He had been
trying
> without success and thought I might know some "magic trick" to getting the
> thing configured. The mainboard was a brand-new model from Asus just
> recently released. He remembered I had told him about a model of Asus
> mainboard that would work with realtime hardware cards, and assumed that
any
> Asus board would suffice. He never bothered to ask which model before
making
> his purchase.
>
> I performed a single attempt at the configuration and saw immediately that
> it was futile. After some prodding from him I continued for the next 4
> hours without success. All the while telling him I did not believe it
would
> ever work. We got partial functionality, never full usage. He got angry at
> me, paid the bill grumbling all the while and left angy with me for not
> having gotten the thing working. You can't put a square peg in a round
hole,
> and you can't get a realtime editing card to work on whatever mainboard
you
> see that catches your eye and fits your budget.
>
> My advice is to pay attention to the manufacturer's tested mainboard list
> and purchase one of those models. Even if you have to spend a little more
> than you wanted to, it will save you a lot of headache in the future. The
> right components coupled with the right sucession of software and driver
> installation will yield smooth operation of the editing system as a whole.
>
> Note that none of the complaining parties in the posts have specified
which
> mainboard they have.
>
> Realtime hardware editing cards can also have problems with certain VGA
> cards, and there are specific VGA cards known to work the best with the
> realtime editing hardware cards. Yes, the wrong VGA card can affect the
> performance of the realtime editing card. I have personally tested quite a
> few that did in fact make the playback lag the playback and other
functions
> with the editing software. One that comes to mind was a GeForce FX
something
> or other, it's been a long time and I can't remember the complete model
> number. From that point on I stuck to manufacturer's know tested VGA
> chipsets.
>
> All hardware editing cards have known issues. Known issues don't alway
> pretain to all tested mainboards, some have certain ones that others many
> not, while some may not suffer from the issues whatsover. With all the
> differing mainboards it would be good to see which have what issues if
they
> exist, but creating a specific list of this nature tends to get repetitive
> if issues are shared by certain models. So an all inclusive list without
> specific models streamlines the operation of creating the list. I
personally
> have seen updates to software that listed fixes to issues I had not
> encountered using the hardware. Nonetheless it was fixed. It was still a
> non-issue for me, but it was fixed anyway!
>
> Why Vic has a bug up his behind at Canopus I can't really say, nor do I
> really care. I am not defending Canopus in particular, but attempting to
> defend the right for you people to know what causes problems and how they
> may be avoided when considering the purchase of a realtime editing card
> whether from Canopus, Matrox, Leitech, NewTek, or whatever manufacturer it
> may be. I did note that when I posted a direct question to Vic concerning
> the mainboard and system specs of his computer he ignored my question in
> favor of posting more complaints from the Canopus forums. This leads me to
> believe he knows he has the wrong mainboard, etc. for fear I will point
out
> the error and negate his self-given right to trash Canopus on this forum.
>
>
> --
> Larry Johnson
> Digital Video Solutions
> webmaster@digitalvideosolutions.com
> http://www.digitalvideosolutions.com
> 877-227-6281 Toll Free Sales Assistance
> 386-672-1941 Customer Service
> 386-672-1907 Technical Support
> 386-676-1515 Fax
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 10:15:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Larry Johnson wrote:
>With realtime hardware the output is
>in realtime at full resolution and can be output to tape without further
>rendering. (OHCI) Realtime preview is low resolution even if the output is
going to
>the camcorder screen during editing, but must be rendered to full
>resolutions before output can occur. There is a big difference in the two
>types of editing in spite of their similarities.

NOT TRUE Larry.
Vegas lets you see full resolution with just an OHCI card. You can pick from
four picture quality levels that are the exact same that you get for rendering.
It might not be at full frame rate for complex things, but it will let you see
what final output will look like without any rendering.

Craig H.
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 11:37:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

If at any time the frame rate or the resolution is lowered for any reason,
that in itself constitutes non-full resolution output. I'm not going to
argue whether this could be considered actual realtime. If you can't
immediately record these instances of "full resolution" sequences to tape-
as soon as you are satisfied with it, have laid down the last voice over,
and called it a day can it be called realtime.

I concede the fact that similarities are presented to the user. Craig used
the statement "it might not be at full frame rate for complex things" and
this is true of hardware realtime cards as well. One can exceed the
capabilites of either type of "realtime" preview/output to the point where
absolutely rendering is required in either case. Given the user does not
become excessive in the use of effects. Maintains the levels of "total
comfort" at the "preview" level - whether software or hardware. And when
that user can stop editing in favor of output to tape and in doing so
receives no prompts to do renderings of any kind can it be called realtime
editing.

Many can encode to MPEG-2 DVD compliant. How many can do it in realtime?
Few. From the timeline of Adobe Premiere the Matrox RT.X100 does just that -
2 hours on the timeline 2 hours to finish. Granted the output is to a
different format of video, but the assumptions of what realtime is remain
the same. Preview of a finished product on the timeline is just that, at any
resolution - it doesn't matter. If your final edited project is 2 hours and
2 hours later you have the competed project in that final edited form - on
tape, in a new AVI, or MPEG-2 file - that is realtime output.

You can't get faster than realtime output to tape, at least not at this time
anyway, but you can achieve faster than realtime output of the finished
project to MPEG-2 DVD compliant in some cases. Your system, software and
hardware cannot give you what they are not collectively capable of. But, the
decade is young and there are new processors on the horizon which will bring
totally new debates to be engaged in with my esteemed friends here at
rec.video.desktop.

Thanks for your input, Craig. You made a good point! I will be more careful
in the way I state certain points because of it.
--
Larry Johnson
Digital Video Solutions
webmaster@digitalvideosolutions.com
http://www.digitalvideosolutions.com
877-227-6281 Toll Free Sales Assistance
386-672-1941 Customer Service
386-672-1907 Technical Support
386-676-1515 Fax


"HighPeaksVideo" <highpeaksvideo@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041213141508.21518.00001767@mb-m11.aol.com...
> Larry Johnson wrote:
> >With realtime hardware the output is
> >in realtime at full resolution and can be output to tape without further
> >rendering. (OHCI) Realtime preview is low resolution even if the output
is
> going to
> >the camcorder screen during editing, but must be rendered to full
> >resolutions before output can occur. There is a big difference in the two
> >types of editing in spite of their similarities.
>
> NOT TRUE Larry.
> Vegas lets you see full resolution with just an OHCI card. You can pick
from
> four picture quality levels that are the exact same that you get for
rendering.
> It might not be at full frame rate for complex things, but it will let you
see
> what final output will look like without any rendering.
>
> Craig H.
>
>
!