Extending the life of a camcorder through refrigeration?

[Doc]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend the
life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad effect?

Thanks

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

Doc wrote:

> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad effect?
>
> Thanks
>
>
I think it would cause you far more problems with condensation than it
would save you from bad electrolytics.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:05 GMT, "Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com>
wrote:

>Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
>caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend the
>life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
>refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad effect?
>
>Thanks
>


They seem to have solved the problem that cuaed the caps to leak. I
haven't seen wide spread SMD electrolytic failure in anything made
recently.
Andy Cuffe
baltimora@psu.edu

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

NO.


"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lbYxd.6007$Z47.645@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
> the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
> effect?
>
> Thanks
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote

> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad effect?

If you store it in a hermetic container, add some rice/si gell to mop up water
if you live in the south, it most likely won't do any harm. But I am not sure
it will do any good. From what I remember on electrolytic failure modes most
of the wear out is with the power on. If they just sit there they are in
danger of drying out over the decades, so high humidity may help.

I doubt if you will see an difference in reliability - it would take analysis
of failure rates and causes for 100 camcorders with refrigeration Vs 100
kept in the hall closet to prove any effect.

I would settle your mind:

1) Electrolytics don't wear out in storage.

2) There were batches of bad electrolytics in the early 90's when China
first started to make them. Recently there have been no problems.
I don't know that any of the bad ones were surface mount, all/most
were cans rated at much higher voltage for the size than any
Japanese or US caps.

3) It may not be an electrolytic that failed: if the repairman was able to
isolate the failed cap then he would/could have replaced it for $0.50.
Experience says you probably got the run-around from the repair man, seeing
as how things like miniature camcorders tend to be unrepairable anyway.

Conclusion: Keep the 'corder in the closet.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lbYxd.6007$Z47.645@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
effect?
>
> Thanks
>
>

Store it in a cool, dry place. I don't recommend the refrigerator as
condensation will be an issue when you take it out to use it. The cold won't
hurt it, I store plenty of equipment in my garage where it gets down near
freezing regularly in the winter, but I don't tend to power anything up
until it's warmed. Excessive heat will dry up the capacitors quicker but you
don't have to keep them cold, just don't leave it in the trunk of your car
in the hot sun or a hot upstairs closet in the summer. Human-comfortable
temperatures are generally comfortable for your equipment as well.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

On 21-Dec-2004, "James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The cold won't
> hurt it, I store plenty of equipment in my garage where it gets down near
> freezing regularly in the winter,

I have had items written off due to cracking of brass
interference fit parts at sub-zero temperatures. I assume it
was hard brass and that there was stress from the interference
fit to start with. Possibly one part was heated then force
fitted, whereupon the additional cooling knackered it.
Repair worked out quite expensive.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.basics,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.repair (More info?)

<ato_zee@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cK2dnWwCTZcQ4VXcRVn-3A@nildram.net...
>
> On 21-Dec-2004, "James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The cold won't
> > hurt it, I store plenty of equipment in my garage where it gets down
near
> > freezing regularly in the winter,
>
> I have had items written off due to cracking of brass
> interference fit parts at sub-zero temperatures. I assume it
> was hard brass and that there was stress from the interference
> fit to start with. Possibly one part was heated then force
> fitted, whereupon the additional cooling knackered it.
> Repair worked out quite expensive.

Sub-zero is one thing, but we're talking about refrigerator temperatures
here. Your main enemy with anything getting very cold is the stresses of
cooling down and warming up, particularly very large temp swings.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

Doc wrote:
> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad effect?
>

Most electrolytic caps are endurance/shelf tested at 85C. Room
temperatures aren't going to affect them very much, I think.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

"Andy Cuffe" <baltimora@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:ut5hs0lldan95rrkl0m93f88ocsnqtdg6l@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:05 GMT, "Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> >caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
the
> >life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> >refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
effect?
> >
> >Thanks
> >
>
>
> They seem to have solved the problem that cuaed the caps to leak. I
> haven't seen wide spread SMD electrolytic failure in anything made
> recently.


Has it been long enough to know yet? When I've ordered replacement caps I
was somewhat shocked at the lifetime ratings, many of them are only rated
2-3k hours, only a couple times longer than the average life of a common
incandescent lightbulb.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

The cycling of electronic components and boards will probably do just as
much damage as keeping it out of the fridge.

I'd store the camcorder in a sealed vapor proof bag along with a
dessicant to keep the humidity away in a temperature and humidity
controlled environment (or just a cool place).

I would not worry too much -- camcorders were designed to go thousands
of hours, and you can expect most to last years under good care and use.

Also, with new DV camcorders going for as low as $150, why worry too
much? (www.fatwallet.com/forums/ -> old VL-Z3U thread)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

"Andy Cuffe" <baltimora@psu.edu> wrote in message
news:ut5hs0lldan95rrkl0m93f88ocsnqtdg6l@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 16:29:05 GMT, "Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
>>caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
>>the
>>life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
>>refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
>>effect?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>
>
> They seem to have solved the problem that cuaed the caps to leak. I
> haven't seen wide spread SMD electrolytic failure in anything made
> recently.

Me neither - even camcorders I've recapped years ago are still going strong
(which is either good or bad depending on how you look at it).
One thing that does help is to actually USE the camcorder rather then just
let it sit about gathering dust, being pressed into service at Christmas and
the odd birthday party. That type of use gives the caps all the time they
need to for the electrolyte to break down - and once its then powered up
again the liquid almost boils and consequently leaks.

But its not as much of a problem these days - just the odd bad batches of
leaky caps that ruin motherboards...

....

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

James Sweet wrote:
>
>"Andy Cuffe" <baltimora@psu.edu> wrote...

>> They seem to have solved the problem that caused the caps to leak.
>> I haven't seen wide spread SMD electrolytic failure in anything
>> made recently.
>
>Has it been long enough to know yet?

We know not because of testing, but because we know what the problem
was. A Chinese capacitor manufacturer stole an electrolyte formula
from another Chinese capacitor manufacturer and got the wrong formula.
Now everyone is back to formulas that have been is service for many
years, so that particular problem is gone.

>When I've ordered replacement caps I was somewhat shocked at the
>lifetime ratings, many of them are only rated 2-3k hours, only
>a couple times longer than the average life of a common
>incandescent lightbulb.

First of all those ratings are for how long it will take for the
capacitance to drop below the rated capacitance, not how long
before it fails. Your circuit may work fine at 50% capacitance.

Second, the life time is the time the capacitor will perform
within the stated specification (usually ±20% of the initial
capacitance) at the maximum rated voltage ripple current and
temperature. When operating at temperatures below the maximum
rated temperature, the life expectancy of the component will
roughly double for every ten degrees C lower than the rated temperature.

For example:

2,000 hours at 105 degrees C
4,000 hours at 95 degrees C
8,000 hours at 85 degrees C
16,000 hours at 75 degrees C
32,000 hours at 65 degrees C
64,000 hours at 55 degrees C
128,000 hours at 45 degrees C (14 years+)
256,000 hours at 35 degrees C (28 years+)

Also, the life increases if the applied voltage is less than the
rated voltage, down to 60-79% of the rated voltage. A typical
figure is eight times the life at 60% voltage.

Having a low ripple current and not having voltage spikes helps,
as does avoiding long (years) periods at zero volts.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote in message news:lbYxd.6007$Z47.645@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad effect?
>
> Thanks
>
Don't do it. If nothing else, thermal cycling can cause things to loosen.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lbYxd.6007$Z47.645@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
effect?
>
> Thanks
>
> The caps go bad because they leak. The rubber dries out with age and
leaks the electrolyte. Military and most automotive electronics use caps
that are sealed in plastic (longer life and higher useable temp range).

 

[Mike]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

Condensation will wreak havoc on internal workings of a camcorder when you
remove it from the freezer.

"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lbYxd.6007$Z47.645@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
the
> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
effect?
>
> Thanks
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 06:21:01 -0500, "Jeff Rigby" <jffg2@comcast.net>
wrote:

>
>"Doc" <docsavage20@Xhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:lbYxd.6007$Z47.645@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> Since I just had one 8mm camcorder go bad, ostensibly due to electrolytic
>> caps going out, I wonder if there's anything that can be done to extend
>the
>> life of the components. Would storing a camcorder in a thermal bag in the
>> refrigerator during periods of non-use have any obvious good or bad
>effect?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
> The caps go bad because they leak. The rubber dries out with age and
>leaks the electrolyte. Military and most automotive electronics use caps
>that are sealed in plastic (longer life and higher useable temp range).
>
It's the other way around - they leak because they go bad.
The problem isn't with the cases, it's with the electrolyte itself;
the bad ones are made using an incomplete formula that was stolen by a
stupid thief.
--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:02:20 -0700, Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:

>The problem isn't with the cases, it's with the electrolyte itself;
>the bad ones are made using an incomplete formula that was stolen by a
>stupid thief.

Wow. I lean new stuff every day. The question is, does my brain need
to be filled up with stuff like this?

--
Owamanga!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

Owamanga wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:02:20 -0700, Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The problem isn't with the cases, it's with the electrolyte itself;
>>the bad ones are made using an incomplete formula that was stolen by a
>>stupid thief.
>
>
> Wow. I lean new stuff every day. The question is, does my brain need
> to be filled up with stuff like this?
>
No, do not fill your brain with capacitor electrolyte, either the good
stuff or the stuff missing the secret ingredient.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: sci.electronics.repair,rec.video.desktop,sci.electronics.design,sci.electronics.basics (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 20:01:09 GMT, Owamanga <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 12:02:20 -0700, Big Bill <bill@pipping.com> wrote:
>
>>The problem isn't with the cases, it's with the electrolyte itself;
>>the bad ones are made using an incomplete formula that was stolen by a
>>stupid thief.
>
>Wow. I lean new stuff every day. The question is, does my brain need
>to be filled up with stuff like this?

That depends - how long do you want to retain a charge in your brain?


--
Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"