Which product do you think is the best for AVI to DVD?

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Greetings.

I'm looking for a good product to create a DVD (movie) from an AVI or AVIs
thats under $100 dollars - preferably under $50.
I've done some research and I'm wondering which product
you people out there consider to be a good ( since some of you are experts and I'm not ).
Before I spend some money, I would appreciate any insights
into which product is the best one for my needs.

Currently, I have the following products in mind:

1) DVD-lab
http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/index.html

2) TMPGEnc DVD Source Creator 2.0
http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/index.html

3) Dvd to AVI
http://www.topshareware.com/DVD-to-AVI-download-731.htm


I'm looking for a good quality product that create a DVD video with minimal artifacts.
Which product do you think is the best for my needs?
Any suggestions?

Thank you very much (in advance).
13 answers Last reply
More about which product
  1. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    Michael Anonymous wrote:

    > 3) Dvd to AVI
    > http://www.topshareware.com/DVD-to-AVI-download-731.htm

    I made a mistake number 3) shouldn't be there.
    I apologize for the error.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    DVD Lab, while my preference for authoring, will need to be feed MGP2 files.
    It will not take the Avi files.


    "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    news:NLKdnVrGUuP3CZffRVn-1g@comcast.com...
    > Greetings.
    >
    > I'm looking for a good product to create a DVD (movie) from an AVI or AVIs
    > thats under $100 dollars - preferably under $50.
    > I've done some research and I'm wondering which product
    > you people out there consider to be a good ( since some of you are experts
    and I'm not ).
    > Before I spend some money, I would appreciate any insights
    > into which product is the best one for my needs.
    >
    > Currently, I have the following products in mind:
    >
    > 1) DVD-lab
    > http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/index.html
    >
    > 2) TMPGEnc DVD Source Creator 2.0
    > http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/index.html
    >
    > 3) Dvd to AVI
    > http://www.topshareware.com/DVD-to-AVI-download-731.htm
    >
    >
    > I'm looking for a good quality product that create a DVD video with
    minimal artifacts.
    > Which product do you think is the best for my needs?
    > Any suggestions?
    >
    > Thank you very much (in advance).
  3. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    news:NLKdnVrGUuP3CZffRVn-1g@comcast.com...
    > Greetings.
    >
    > I'm looking for a good product to create a DVD (movie) from an AVI or AVIs
    > thats under $100 dollars - preferably under $50.
    > I've done some research and I'm wondering which product
    > you people out there consider to be a good ( since some of you are experts
    > and I'm not ).
    > Before I spend some money, I would appreciate any insights
    > into which product is the best one for my needs.
    >
    > Currently, I have the following products in mind:
    >
    > 1) DVD-lab
    > http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/index.html
    >
    > 2) TMPGEnc DVD Source Creator 2.0
    > http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/index.html
    >
    Why not click on the link to the free Encoder 2.5?
    Then to Author the DVD look at TMPGEnc DVD Author.


    > 3) Dvd to AVI
    > http://www.topshareware.com/DVD-to-AVI-download-731.htm
    >
    >
    > I'm looking for a good quality product that create a DVD video with
    > minimal artifacts.
    > Which product do you think is the best for my needs?
    > Any suggestions?
    >
    > Thank you very much (in advance).

    You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    do its job.

    Luck;
    Ken
  4. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    Ken Maltby wrote:

    >
    > You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    > may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    > do its job.
    >

    Thanks for the help.
    I'm using Windows Movie Maker to edit and create the video.
    Actually, I'm quite confused.
    I understand that I have to convert the AVI or WMV to a MPeg2 file?
    Then how to do I write it to the DVD?
    Is there a simple way of doing this or do I have to purchase multiple products?
  5. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    news:4NqdnQPdM4d0IZbfRVn-ig@comcast.com...
    > Ken Maltby wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    > > may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    > > do its job.
    > >
    >
    > Thanks for the help.
    > I'm using Windows Movie Maker to edit and create the video.
    > Actually, I'm quite confused.
    > I understand that I have to convert the AVI or WMV to a MPeg2 file?
    > Then how to do I write it to the DVD?
    > Is there a simple way of doing this or do I have to purchase multiple
    products?

    It depends on the quality that you expect from the result.

    The process of creating a DVD is as follows:

    1. AVI is transcoded to MPEG2
    This step compresses the AVI and puts it in MPEG2 format. The MPEG2 must be
    DVD-compliant (there are lots of different options for compressing MPEG2).

    2. The DVD is authored
    This involves creating menus and timelines for the DVD, assigning actions to
    menu buttons, and the formatting the MPEG2 into VOB files -- VOB files are
    MPEG2-formatted, but limited in size (for a variety of reasons) to 1 G.

    There is software available that does the entire process in one program,
    i.e. import video, edit video, transcode and author. However, without
    exception, these programs introduce significant limitations, both in terms
    of quality and flexibility.

    The workflow for my videos (which results in commercial-quality final
    products) is as follows:

    Capture: Scenealyzer Live -- miniDV imported to the computer as DV
    Codec-encoded AVI, automatically broken up into clips based on date/time.

    Editing: Adobe Premiere Pro -- end result exported as a DV Codec-encoded
    AVI.

    Transcoding: Tmpgenc -- very slow, but the best (in terms of quality)
    software-based transcoder under $1000. End result exported as MPEG2-encoded
    separate audio and video streams.

    Authoring: Adobe Encore -- menu creation (used in conjunction with Adobe
    Photoshop CS). End result saved as DVD-files.

    Burning: Nero 6.0 -- I use the "Create new video DVD" selection and simply
    drop the files created by Encore into the video_ts folder.

    That's it.

    If you don't care about quality (or are content with less than maximal
    quality) you can get a program like Pinnacle Studio 9 which can do
    everything from capture to burn in a single program.


    >
  6. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    news:4NqdnQPdM4d0IZbfRVn-ig@comcast.com...
    > Ken Maltby wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    >> may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    >> do its job.
    >>
    >
    > Thanks for the help.
    > I'm using Windows Movie Maker to edit and create the video.
    > Actually, I'm quite confused.
    > I understand that I have to convert the AVI or WMV to a MPeg2 file?
    > Then how to do I write it to the DVD?
    > Is there a simple way of doing this or do I have to purchase multiple
    > products?
    >

    There the "all in one" approaches like WinAVI and DVDSanta; but.

    A frequent poster to these NGs "Colon Terminus" recently made
    what IMHO may be the best post to address this kind of question:

    "There is no magic bullet.
    Individual programs optimized for their function, is the best way to go.

    Here's one way to create perfect DVDs:

    Capture to DVD compliant MPG.

    Edit and trim and separate into elementary video/audio streams with
    VideoReDo.

    Author your DVD to hard disk with DVD LAB (others recommend
    TMPGEnc DVD Author [TDA]).

    Shrink your DVD to fit your media with DVD Shrink.

    Burn your DVD with Nero Burning ROM.

    Video ReDo: http://www.drdsystems.com/VideoReDo/
    DVD Lab: http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/
    TMPGEnc: http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html
    DVD Shrink: http://www.dvdshrink.org/
    Nero: http://www.ahead.de/
    "

    I would be one of the "others" mentioned above.

    If you just download the free trials of these programs and
    read their help files you will have a real understanding of
    what's going on. One caveat for the above list, Nero is
    probably the best Burning software out there, but it can be
    a real pain to use for DVD creation. It has a tendency to
    try and re-encode everything it gets its hands on.

    Luck;
    Ken
  7. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    news:soOdndGd1KLfXJbfRVn-uA@giganews.com...
    >
    > "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    > news:4NqdnQPdM4d0IZbfRVn-ig@comcast.com...
    > > Ken Maltby wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >> You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    > >> may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    > >> do its job.
    > >>
    > >
    > > Thanks for the help.
    > > I'm using Windows Movie Maker to edit and create the video.
    > > Actually, I'm quite confused.
    > > I understand that I have to convert the AVI or WMV to a MPeg2 file?
    > > Then how to do I write it to the DVD?
    > > Is there a simple way of doing this or do I have to purchase multiple
    > > products?
    > >
    >
    > There the "all in one" approaches like WinAVI and DVDSanta; but.
    >
    > A frequent poster to these NGs "Colon Terminus" recently made
    > what IMHO may be the best post to address this kind of question:
    >
    > "There is no magic bullet.
    > Individual programs optimized for their function, is the best way to go.
    >
    > Here's one way to create perfect DVDs:
    >
    > Capture to DVD compliant MPG.
    >
    > Edit and trim and separate into elementary video/audio streams with
    > VideoReDo.
    >
    > Author your DVD to hard disk with DVD LAB (others recommend
    > TMPGEnc DVD Author [TDA]).
    >
    > Shrink your DVD to fit your media with DVD Shrink.
    >
    > Burn your DVD with Nero Burning ROM.

    How in the world does this create perfect DVDs?

    Capturing to DVD-compliant mpeg means CBR, not VBR.

    Editing mpeg beyond simply non-frame-accurate cuts requires
    re-rendering/transcoding.

    Using DVD Shrink introduces an additional compression pass. DVD Shrink can
    do 2-pass compression, but it's not going to produce results remotely
    approaching what a good transcoder can do in the first place.


    >
    > Video ReDo: http://www.drdsystems.com/VideoReDo/
    > DVD Lab: http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/
    > TMPGEnc: http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html
    > DVD Shrink: http://www.dvdshrink.org/
    > Nero: http://www.ahead.de/
    > "
    >
    > I would be one of the "others" mentioned above.
    >
    > If you just download the free trials of these programs and
    > read their help files you will have a real understanding of
    > what's going on. One caveat for the above list, Nero is
    > probably the best Burning software out there, but it can be
    > a real pain to use for DVD creation. It has a tendency to
    > try and re-encode everything it gets its hands on.
    >
    > Luck;
    > Ken
    >
    >
    >
    >
  8. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "PTravel" <ptravel@ruyitang.com> wrote in message
    news:3723tvF58hs3sU1@individual.net...
    >
    > "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    > news:soOdndGd1KLfXJbfRVn-uA@giganews.com...
    >>
    >> "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    >> news:4NqdnQPdM4d0IZbfRVn-ig@comcast.com...
    >> > Ken Maltby wrote:
    >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    >> >> may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    >> >> do its job.
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> > Thanks for the help.
    >> > I'm using Windows Movie Maker to edit and create the video.
    >> > Actually, I'm quite confused.
    >> > I understand that I have to convert the AVI or WMV to a MPeg2 file?
    >> > Then how to do I write it to the DVD?
    >> > Is there a simple way of doing this or do I have to purchase multiple
    >> > products?
    >> >
    >>
    >> There the "all in one" approaches like WinAVI and DVDSanta; but.
    >>
    >> A frequent poster to these NGs "Colon Terminus" recently made
    >> what IMHO may be the best post to address this kind of question:
    >>
    >> "There is no magic bullet.
    >> Individual programs optimized for their function, is the best way to go.
    >>
    >> Here's one way to create perfect DVDs:
    >>
    >> Capture to DVD compliant MPG.
    >>
    >> Edit and trim and separate into elementary video/audio streams with
    >> VideoReDo.
    >>
    >> Author your DVD to hard disk with DVD LAB (others recommend
    >> TMPGEnc DVD Author [TDA]).
    >>
    >> Shrink your DVD to fit your media with DVD Shrink.
    >>
    >> Burn your DVD with Nero Burning ROM.
    >
    > How in the world does this create perfect DVDs?
    >
    > Capturing to DVD-compliant mpeg means CBR, not VBR.
    >

    Site a creditable source for that. VBR MPEG2 Video is a
    very commonly used format, and in no way prohibited in any
    DVD Standard reference I've read. There is a reference to
    CBR Audio as a preferred and expected format.


    > Editing mpeg beyond simply non-frame-accurate cuts requires
    > re-rendering/transcoding.
    >

    You must know that you are nit-picking, to an illogical extent.

    The "new" MPEG Editor's re-encoding of the 30th of a sec.
    frame that includes the effected GOP header; can't be detected
    by the human eye. None of the image data is effected at all, the
    same 1s & 0s are copied to a new file. So frame accurate
    MPEG cuts are not a problem.


    > Using DVD Shrink introduces an additional compression pass. DVD Shrink
    > can
    > do 2-pass compression, but it's not going to produce results remotely
    > approaching what a good transcoder can do in the first place.
    >

    The use of DVD Shrink as a part of the Creation of a DVD,
    is just to allow for the occasional to rare case where the
    capture/encoding settings you are using and/or the content
    of the video (with VBR set) produce results that are slightly
    over sized for your intended purpose. Its use saves the
    time and effort of re-capturing/encoding at different settings,
    just to avoid a very minor if any noticeable impact. The tiny
    amount of additional compression needed is normally
    applied in such a manner as to be totally undetectable.


    >
    >>
    >> Video ReDo: http://www.drdsystems.com/VideoReDo/
    >> DVD Lab: http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/
    >> TMPGEnc: http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html
    >> DVD Shrink: http://www.dvdshrink.org/
    >> Nero: http://www.ahead.de/
    >> "
    >>
    >> I would be one of the "others" mentioned above.
    >>
    >> If you just download the free trials of these programs and
    >> read their help files you will have a real understanding of
    >> what's going on. One caveat for the above list, Nero is
    >> probably the best Burning software out there, but it can be
    >> a real pain to use for DVD creation. It has a tendency to
    >> try and re-encode everything it gets its hands on.
    >>
    >> Luck;
    >> Ken
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
  9. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    news:EamdncCnNNqOnpHfRVn-oA@giganews.com...
    >
    > "PTravel" <ptravel@ruyitang.com> wrote in message
    > news:3723tvF58hs3sU1@individual.net...
    > >
    > > "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    > > news:soOdndGd1KLfXJbfRVn-uA@giganews.com...
    > >>
    > >> "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    > >> news:4NqdnQPdM4d0IZbfRVn-ig@comcast.com...
    > >> > Ken Maltby wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >>
    > >> >> You know that AVI can mean anything now, some of that AVI
    > >> >> may need special decoder/codec before an MPEG Encoder can
    > >> >> do its job.
    > >> >>
    > >> >
    > >> > Thanks for the help.
    > >> > I'm using Windows Movie Maker to edit and create the video.
    > >> > Actually, I'm quite confused.
    > >> > I understand that I have to convert the AVI or WMV to a MPeg2 file?
    > >> > Then how to do I write it to the DVD?
    > >> > Is there a simple way of doing this or do I have to purchase multiple
    > >> > products?
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >> There the "all in one" approaches like WinAVI and DVDSanta; but.
    > >>
    > >> A frequent poster to these NGs "Colon Terminus" recently made
    > >> what IMHO may be the best post to address this kind of question:
    > >>
    > >> "There is no magic bullet.
    > >> Individual programs optimized for their function, is the best way to
    go.
    > >>
    > >> Here's one way to create perfect DVDs:
    > >>
    > >> Capture to DVD compliant MPG.
    > >>
    > >> Edit and trim and separate into elementary video/audio streams with
    > >> VideoReDo.
    > >>
    > >> Author your DVD to hard disk with DVD LAB (others recommend
    > >> TMPGEnc DVD Author [TDA]).
    > >>
    > >> Shrink your DVD to fit your media with DVD Shrink.
    > >>
    > >> Burn your DVD with Nero Burning ROM.
    > >
    > > How in the world does this create perfect DVDs?
    > >
    > > Capturing to DVD-compliant mpeg means CBR, not VBR.
    > >
    >
    > Site a creditable source for that.
    > VBR MPEG2 Video is a
    > very commonly used format, and in no way prohibited in any
    > DVD Standard reference I've read.

    You're right and I mispoke. What I meant was a good transcoder does
    _multipass_ VBR -- single pass will not yield as good results. Though, of
    course, it is possible to do VBR on realtime capture to mpeg, it is not
    possible to do multiple pass. I always think of VBR in the context of at
    least 2-passes, since otherwise it's simply a best guess based on the
    current content and whatever may have been buffered.

    > There is a reference to
    > CBR Audio as a preferred and expected format.
    >
    >
    > > Editing mpeg beyond simply non-frame-accurate cuts requires
    > > re-rendering/transcoding.
    > >
    >
    > You must know that you are nit-picking, to an illogical extent.

    I'm not nitpicking at all. Mpeg cannot do frame-accurate cuts without
    re-rendering. That will seriously, and negatively, impact the quality of
    the re-rendered video. Transitions cannot be applied, color and gamma
    corrections cannot be made, titles cannot be added, mattes cannot be
    included, compositing cannot be done without re-rendering which will have a
    serious, and negative, impact on the quality of the re-rendered video.

    >
    > The "new" MPEG Editor's re-encoding of the 30th of a sec.
    > frame that includes the effected GOP header; can't be detected
    > by the human eye.

    It depends on where the cut takes place. If it's the 18th frame from a GOP,
    then 18 frames will need to be rerendered and that will certainly be
    detectable by the human eye.

    > None of the image data is effected at all, the
    > same 1s & 0s are copied to a new file. So frame accurate
    > MPEG cuts are not a problem.

    I don't know how you can say this. If you're saying it's not important to
    be able to cut to a single frame, I disagree. As an example, I frequently
    edit to music and an error of as little as 6 frames one way or the other
    produces a noticeable jolt. If you're saying the re-rendering that will
    result in a cut to single frame doesn't impact the quality of the video, I
    similarly disagree; re-transcoding mpeg produces noticeable (and rapid)
    degeneration.

    >
    >
    > > Using DVD Shrink introduces an additional compression pass. DVD Shrink
    > > can
    > > do 2-pass compression, but it's not going to produce results remotely
    > > approaching what a good transcoder can do in the first place.
    > >
    >
    > The use of DVD Shrink as a part of the Creation of a DVD,
    > is just to allow for the occasional to rare case where the
    > capture/encoding settings you are using and/or the content
    > of the video (with VBR set) produce results that are slightly
    > over sized for your intended purpose.

    Then you agree that using DVD Shrink does have a negative impact on the
    quality of the video.


    > Its use saves the
    > time and effort of re-capturing/encoding at different settings,
    > just to avoid a very minor if any noticeable impact.

    Noticeable, yes. Minor? It depends on what your personal tolerance happens
    to be. The methodology you outlined will _not_ produce the best quality DVD
    that can be created using consumer gear and software. It may be more
    convenient, or faster, or cheaper, but it's not going to produce better
    video. Maybe the quality of the video that results is sufficient for you
    and the OP. It isn't for me.

    The OP asked for the best way to go from AVI to DVD. "Best" in this context
    clearly means different things to me than it does to you. I'm focused on
    quality, you appear to be focused on convenience and speed. Only the OP can
    decide whose definition of "best" coincides with his own.

    > The tiny
    > amount of additional compression needed is normally
    > applied in such a manner as to be totally undetectable.

    Again, I don't agree. DVD Shrink, doing 2-pass VBR retranscode of an mpeg
    will not produce a video that is of as high quality as tmpgenc doing 2-pass
    VBR, on a DV-codec compressed AVI, particularly when tmpgenc is tweaked. Of
    course DVD Shrink can recompress 2 hours of video in an hour, whereas
    tmpgenc can take as long as 24 hours to transcode a 2 hour AVI. However,
    the difference in quality of output is more than noticeable. My final DVDs
    are of comparable quality to commercial DVDs press from glass masters. I
    use DVD Shrink for cutting the occassional copy of a commercial DVD, which
    is a retranscode and compress no different than what you've proposed, and
    the quality is clearly compromised and below that of the original. Is it
    good? Yes. Is it _as_ good? Not even close.

    >
    >
    > >
    > >>
    > >> Video ReDo: http://www.drdsystems.com/VideoReDo/
    > >> DVD Lab: http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/
    > >> TMPGEnc: http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/index.html
    > >> DVD Shrink: http://www.dvdshrink.org/
    > >> Nero: http://www.ahead.de/
    > >> "
    > >>
    > >> I would be one of the "others" mentioned above.
    > >>
    > >> If you just download the free trials of these programs and
    > >> read their help files you will have a real understanding of
    > >> what's going on. One caveat for the above list, Nero is
    > >> probably the best Burning software out there, but it can be
    > >> a real pain to use for DVD creation. It has a tendency to
    > >> try and re-encode everything it gets its hands on.
    > >>
    > >> Luck;
    > >> Ken
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
  10. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "PTravel" <ptravel@ruyitang.com> wrote in message
    news:372ia7F56qns4U1@individual.net...
    >
    >> >
    >> > Capturing to DVD-compliant mpeg means CBR, not VBR.
    >> >
    >>
    >> Site a creditable source for that.
    >> VBR MPEG2 Video is a
    >> very commonly used format, and in no way prohibited in any
    >> DVD Standard reference I've read.
    >
    > You're right and I mispoke. What I meant was a good transcoder does
    > _multipass_ VBR -- single pass will not yield as good results. Though, of
    > course, it is possible to do VBR on realtime capture to mpeg, it is not
    > possible to do multiple pass. I always think of VBR in the context of at
    > least 2-passes, since otherwise it's simply a best guess based on the
    > current content and whatever may have been buffered.
    >
    >> There is a reference to
    >> CBR Audio as a preferred and expected format.
    >>
    >>
    >> > Editing mpeg beyond simply non-frame-accurate cuts requires
    >> > re-rendering/transcoding.
    >> >
    >>
    >> You must know that you are nit-picking, to an illogical extent.
    >
    > I'm not nitpicking at all. Mpeg cannot do frame-accurate cuts without
    > re-rendering. That will seriously, and negatively, impact the quality of
    > the re-rendered video.

    Totally wrong, with any of the "Smart" MPEG NLE, as I explained
    the video data is not changed in any way. There is a change in the
    number of frames in the GOP(s) effected and in the related GOP
    header data, but no change to the image data. There is only one (or
    two if the previous GOP header needs to be changed also) frame
    that is rebuilt, with the changed header data but the same image data.
    All the other frames in the GOP are bit for bit copies.


    >Transitions cannot be applied, color and gamma
    > corrections cannot be made, titles cannot be added, mattes cannot be
    > included, compositing cannot be done without re-rendering which will have
    > a
    > serious, and negative, impact on the quality of the re-rendered video.
    >

    There is a need when applying such effects, using available editing
    software, to both render the video (so that you have all the image data
    available for each frame) and (after applying such effects) to re-encode
    to DVD compliant MPEG. But you are grossly exaggerating any negative
    effect. When your output remains close to the same parameters as your
    input MPEG, there is seldom any discernible difference between them.

    I have used a Non-Destructive Editor, many times to add text effects
    and VirtualDubMod filters to remove Logos and for other purposes;
    with some care and the use of a multi-pass encoding the results are in
    no way inferior to the original MPEG.

    If it is the case that you can't take a DVD Compliant MPEG source
    and apply such effects without ruining your video; I would suggest
    that you keep trying. If you haven't tried it because you "Just know
    it won't work", try it some time. Remember Bumble Bees and B-52s
    aren't suppose to be able to fly either.

    >>
    >> The "new" MPEG Editor's re-encoding of the 30th of a sec.
    >> frame that includes the effected GOP header; can't be detected
    >> by the human eye.
    >
    > It depends on where the cut takes place. If it's the 18th frame from a
    > GOP,
    > then 18 frames will need to be rerendered and that will certainly be
    > detectable by the human eye.
    >

    Wrong again, as I explained the only frames that get rebuilt are
    those that contain the GOP Header data, and even that one first frame
    of the GOP is built using bit for bit the same image (based on the fully
    rendered frame). The other 17 frames, in your example are bit for bit
    copies of the image data in those frames exactly as they are,
    unrendered. That's one reason they only take seconds while your
    approach can take overnight, certainly hours in the best case.


    >> None of the image data is effected at all, the
    >> same 1s & 0s are copied to a new file. So frame accurate
    >> MPEG cuts are not a problem.
    >
    > I don't know how you can say this. If you're saying it's not important to
    > be able to cut to a single frame, I disagree. As an example, I frequently
    > edit to music and an error of as little as 6 frames one way or the other
    > produces a noticeable jolt.

    I'm saying that you CAN make Frame accurate cuts with the new
    MPEG editing tools. There are certainly times when being able to make
    such cuts is critical. That said, there are also times when an "I-Frame"
    cut is all that is needed. For the most part removing commercials from
    captured TV video, is easily done on that basis. The transition to most
    TV commercial breaks is both extensive and of the "Fade to Black" type.
    There are often several "I-Frame" cut points that are "in the Black".

    > If you're saying the re-rendering that will
    > result in a cut to single frame doesn't impact the quality of the video, I
    > similarly disagree; re-transcoding mpeg produces noticeable (and rapid)
    > degeneration.
    >

    As I have described the new "Smart" Process where only one or two
    frames per cut get, in even the slightest way, rendered then changed and
    then re-encoded ( what you insist on calling "re-rendering"); there is NO,
    none, zero "degeneration".

    As to: going from MPEG and rendering that so that each rendered frame's
    image data is used to encode to a low compression format native to an
    editor; and then in that editor combine it with other data also in the
    editors native format; and finally that editor's output being encoded to
    DVD compliant MPEG with close to the same parameters as the original
    MPEG; IF DONE CORRECTLY, with the right programs, there need
    be no "degeneration". If you try to "improve" or make any significant
    changes to encoding parameters, from those of the original MPEG then all
    bets are off.

    >>
    >> The use of DVD Shrink as a part of the Creation of a DVD,
    >> is just to allow for the occasional to rare case where the
    >> capture/encoding settings you are using and/or the content
    >> of the video (with VBR set) produce results that are slightly
    >> over sized for your intended purpose.
    >
    > Then you agree that using DVD Shrink does have a negative impact on the
    > quality of the video.
    >

    It can, slightly, under the "right" conditions, for a few seconds total
    of
    an hour's worth of video.

    >
    >> Its use saves the
    >> time and effort of re-capturing/encoding at different settings,
    >> just to avoid a very minor if any noticeable impact.
    >
    > Noticeable, yes. Minor? It depends on what your personal tolerance
    > happens
    > to be. The methodology you outlined will _not_ produce the best quality
    > DVD
    > that can be created using consumer gear and software. It may be more
    > convenient, or faster, or cheaper, but it's not going to produce better
    > video. Maybe the quality of the video that results is sufficient for you
    > and the OP. It isn't for me.
    >
    Not having seen Your results, when you have tried the approaches
    described, if you have indeed have ever actually given it a try, I have no
    way to judge.

    Why don't you use the free trial of VideoReDo
    www.VideoReDo.com to cut up a MPEG file and compare the resulting
    file with the original file; see for yourself.


    Let's see your post here after you've made the comparison.

    Luck;
    Ken
  11. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
    news:B6idnRE1ZdjQ25HfRVn-2A@giganews.com...
    >

    <snip>

    > > I'm not nitpicking at all. Mpeg cannot do frame-accurate cuts without
    > > re-rendering. That will seriously, and negatively, impact the quality
    of
    > > the re-rendered video.

    By "smart" NLE do you mean VideoReDo? That's hardly a NLE, even compared to
    something basice like Microsoft MovieMaker.


    >
    > Totally wrong, with any of the "Smart" MPEG NLE, as I explained
    > the video data is not changed in any way. There is a change in the
    > number of frames in the GOP(s) effected and in the related GOP
    > header data, but no change to the image data. There is only one (or
    > two if the previous GOP header needs to be changed also) frame
    > that is rebuilt, with the changed header data but the same image data.
    > All the other frames in the GOP are bit for bit copies.
    >
    >
    > >Transitions cannot be applied, color and gamma
    > > corrections cannot be made, titles cannot be added, mattes cannot be
    > > included, compositing cannot be done without re-rendering which will
    have
    > > a
    > > serious, and negative, impact on the quality of the re-rendered video.
    > >
    >
    > There is a need when applying such effects, using available editing
    > software, to both render the video (so that you have all the image data
    > available for each frame) and (after applying such effects) to re-encode
    > to DVD compliant MPEG. But you are grossly exaggerating any negative
    > effect.

    As I said in my other post, you must have very different standards than I.
    Re-rendered and retranscoded mpeg is of markedly diminished quality compared
    to properly transcoded AVI.


    > When your output remains close to the same parameters as your
    > input MPEG, there is seldom any discernible difference between them.

    Sorry, I don't agree.

    >
    > I have used a Non-Destructive Editor, many times to add text effects
    > and VirtualDubMod filters to remove Logos and for other purposes;
    > with some care and the use of a multi-pass encoding the results are in
    > no way inferior to the original MPEG.

    I have no response to this, other than to say that the times I've tried
    retranscoding mpeg, the results have been unsatisfactory.


    <snip>

    > > I don't know how you can say this. If you're saying it's not important
    to
    > > be able to cut to a single frame, I disagree. As an example, I
    frequently
    > > edit to music and an error of as little as 6 frames one way or the other
    > > produces a noticeable jolt.
    >
    > I'm saying that you CAN make Frame accurate cuts with the new
    > MPEG editing tools.

    Which of the prosumer packages can do frame-accurate mpeg edits?


    > There are certainly times when being able to make
    > such cuts is critical. That said, there are also times when an "I-Frame"
    > cut is all that is needed. For the most part removing commercials from
    > captured TV video, is easily done on that basis.

    There's editing and there's editing. Removing commercials from captured
    broadcast television is editing, but it's certainly not what I'm talking
    about, which is producing a finished project by applying transitions and
    effects to shot video. If your working with TV video, you're already
    working with poor-quality video, at least as compared to DV-25 shot with a
    decent camera.

    > The transition to most
    > TV commercial breaks is both extensive and of the "Fade to Black" type.
    > There are often several "I-Frame" cut points that are "in the Black".
    >
    > > If you're saying the re-rendering that will
    > > result in a cut to single frame doesn't impact the quality of the video,
    I
    > > similarly disagree; re-transcoding mpeg produces noticeable (and rapid)
    > > degeneration.
    > >
    >
    > As I have described the new "Smart" Process where only one or two
    > frames per cut get,

    Oh, now it's a frame or two. Sorry, a frame or two is noticeable in the
    work that I do.
    <snip>

    > > Then you agree that using DVD Shrink does have a negative impact on the
    > > quality of the video.
    > >
    >
    > It can, slightly, under the "right" conditions, for a few seconds total
    > of
    > an hour's worth of video.

    DVD Shrink re-compresses the entire file. It's not confined to a few
    seconds.


    >
    > >
    > >> Its use saves the
    > >> time and effort of re-capturing/encoding at different settings,
    > >> just to avoid a very minor if any noticeable impact.
    > >
    > > Noticeable, yes. Minor? It depends on what your personal tolerance
    > > happens
    > > to be. The methodology you outlined will _not_ produce the best quality
    > > DVD
    > > that can be created using consumer gear and software. It may be more
    > > convenient, or faster, or cheaper, but it's not going to produce better
    > > video. Maybe the quality of the video that results is sufficient for
    you
    > > and the OP. It isn't for me.
    > >
    > Not having seen Your results, when you have tried the approaches
    > described, if you have indeed have ever actually given it a try, I have no
    > way to judge.

    Of course, the first question is why in the world someone would want to try
    the approaches you've described. As I said, I come to this from the
    perspective of someone creating edited projects on DVD from DV-25 source
    material. I edit with Premiere, not VideoReDo, as the latter is completely
    incapable of doing what I need to do. I transcode with tmpgenc because it
    produces the highest quality mpeg for an under-$1000 software transcoder,
    and offers precise control over all the transcoding parameters. Using DVD
    Shrink isn't an alternative -- what's the point of retranscoding, and I work
    in DV-codec AVI anyway. Capturing in mpeg isn't an option at all. As I
    explained, realtime 1-pass VBR can never approach the quality of 2-pass VBR
    in a good software transcoder.

    >
    > Why don't you use the free trial of VideoReDo
    > www.VideoReDo.com to cut up a MPEG file and compare the resulting
    > file with the original file; see for yourself.

    I've experimented with VideoReDo when doing video extraction from my Tivo
    (which produces non-DVD compliant mpeg2). VideoReDo did not let me do
    frame-accurate edits though, of course, it didn't matter when all I wanted
    to do was chop out commercials.

    As I said, "editing" means different things to different people, as does
    "best." If "best editing" means producing the highest quality video,
    capturing and editing in mpeg is not the way to go.

    >
    >
    > Let's see your post here after you've made the comparison.
    >
    > Luck;
    > Ken
    >
    >
  12. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    That's guys for all your help.
    I was thinking of going with 2 products from pegasys
    called:

    TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress
    TMPGEnc DVD Author 1.6 (DVD+R DL)

    Is this a good idea?
    Or would you recommend something better for under $150?
    Also, is the quality good with these products?
    Thanks again for all your help.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

    "Michael Anonymous" <Michael@Anonymous.net> wrote in message
    news:u_ydnSuhLbDlk5DfRVn-3w@comcast.com...
    > That's guys for all your help.
    > I was thinking of going with 2 products from pegasys
    > called:
    >
    > TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress
    > TMPGEnc DVD Author 1.6 (DVD+R DL)
    >
    > Is this a good idea?
    > Or would you recommend something better for under $150?
    > Also, is the quality good with these products?
    > Thanks again for all your help.
    >

    Both are very good products, and I really like TMPGEnc DVD
    Author (TDA), but you should download the free trial of both TDA
    and DVD Lab. They have different workflows and this way you
    can find that which suits you best. If you go with TDA, I can give
    you some neat menu creation tips, I've picked up over the years.

    As to the encoder, most seem to like the new interface in the 3.0,
    and its xDVD format is interesting ( and works quite well) , there
    have been times though when I've had to use the 2.5 plus. Despite
    claims, I doubt there is any encoder that works best for all input.
    All in all, the 3.0 XPress is a good choice.

    If your AVI source is unedited camera footage, as "PTravel"
    assumes, then you should give some thought to what Editing
    package you will want to be able to use. Many of these Editors
    include both capture interfaces and encoders for their output.
    One cheap but very effective Editor that includes the "Ligos
    Go Motion" Encoder, is the "Magix Video Deluxe 2.0 plus"
    which may still be available for ~$10 from "J&R Music World
    Computer World" 800-221-8180. If not try using Google's
    Froogle search engine at www.google.com .

    If your AVI source are downloads you may want to give
    DVDSanta and WinAVI some consideration.

    Finally, if you are capturing from an interlaced analog
    source like TV or a VCR, you should consider a
    real-time hardware MPEG encoding approach. There
    are a number of inexpensive PCI cards and USB2 or
    Firewire boxes out there.

    Look through the Capture options at
    www.videohelp.com and www.digitalfaq.com or
    www.doom9.net

    Luck;
    Ken
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