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Report: Apple Does Not Care Enough About Workers in China

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January 27, 2012 2:12:39 PM

Die, Apple just die already.
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34
January 27, 2012 2:14:08 PM

Apple used to be the darlings of the press. I wonder why the change now?

Besides, doesn't 99% of all electronics get made in China?
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-14
January 27, 2012 2:17:31 PM

The onus is not on Apple. If the conditions are that bad (and I'm not implying they aren't; they appear to be atrocious) then a rational work force should refuse to work under those conditions. This is the main reason labor unions formed during the Industrial Revolution (even if not why they exist today). If unions or similar labor organizations are "illegal," then a political solution is required, over which Apple has no control unless you believe their responsibilities include sedition and supporting some kind of revolutionary movement.
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-13
January 27, 2012 2:18:08 PM

Hey, they aren't Union...so who cares??? (That's /sarc for those that don't "get it".)
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5
Anonymous
January 27, 2012 2:19:24 PM

Something like the "Fair Trade" label needs applying to all the goods we buy, we need to know where everything comes from and the pay/conditions of the workers involved.
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24
January 27, 2012 2:21:03 PM

So this is a surprise???? :sarcastic: 

The only thing, apparently, crApple cares about is transferring the money in its customer's bank accounts to the crApple bank account - even if doing so costs the lives of the people it employs usurps.

The only thing worse than this, IMHO, is the fact that crApple customers do not recognize that they enable dysfunctional crApple to continue with practices such as this by buying crApple products - mostly in the name of keeping up with the Jones' or doing stuff because it is said to be easier to do on a crApple.
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14
January 27, 2012 2:22:54 PM

jtt283The onus is not on Apple. If the conditions are that bad (and I'm not implying they aren't; they appear to be atrocious) then a rational work force should refuse to work under those conditions. This is the main reason labor unions formed during the Industrial Revolution (even if not why they exist today). If unions or similar labor organizations are "illegal," then a political solution is required, over which Apple has no control unless you believe their responsibilities include sedition and supporting some kind of revolutionary movement.


I believe their responsibility includes not making use of such forms of labor, as irrational a viewpoint as that seems to be. You can require certain work conditions to be met as part of your contract with another company. If they do not meet those requirements, they do not get your work and are guilty of breach of contract. Foxconn would no longer exist if the big OEM corporations stopped using them until they gave workers fair pay and rights.

The problem is also the consumers. Most people just don't care about workers in those conditions as long as they are in another part of the world. Out of sight, out of mind. If the consumers stopped purchasing goods made from this labor, it also wouldn't be used anymore. The problem is also our government, for not implementing extreme tariffs and sanctions against countries with such enormous human rights problems. Instead our government is busy starting wars and catering to the corporations that paid for them to get into office.
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22
January 27, 2012 2:24:44 PM

Quote:
Apple itself shows, at least via its website, increased interest in the well-being of the workers...

Just another Apple iLie.
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20
January 27, 2012 2:24:49 PM

jtt283The onus is not on Apple. If the conditions are that bad (and I'm not implying they aren't; they appear to be atrocious) then a rational work force should refuse to work under those conditions. This is the main reason labor unions formed during the Industrial Revolution (even if not why they exist today). If unions or similar labor organizations are "illegal," then a political solution is required, over which Apple has no control unless you believe their responsibilities include sedition and supporting some kind of revolutionary movement.

Total Crap. crApple enables this by contracting with manufacturers who are known to be abusive of employees.

As Fez777 says, IF crApple employed something similar to Fair Trade practices, this would be much less of a concern. There are companies out there that do this successfully.
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4
January 27, 2012 2:25:42 PM

Apple care only about themselves.
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11
January 27, 2012 2:25:50 PM

Apple in the hands of Jobs would plow over any man, woman, or child to move toward innovation. It's to early to tell what Cook will do with these leftover lingering problems. We live in a culture that is ignorant to the plights of others and as long as we get what we want for cheap that's all that matters. For something to harm Apples "spotless image" it's going to take something massive that changes the way we get out products. People complain about Apple having slave labor while writing on an ipad or iphone. If you really want to see this change, stop being a hypocrite and do a little research on where your products are being made.
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7
January 27, 2012 2:25:52 PM

It's not Apple's problem, but rather the Chinese Gov't. The labor is there regardless if Apple saturates it. The hours and pay may be crap, but the alternative of no employment is much worse for the Chinese. Apple is being competitive in a competitive world. China continues to keep there currency under valued all while taking from the people to support under funded building project such as their knock off Manhattan.There's this emotional cause regarding "Blood Diamonds" that is to protect the best interests of native people, though there underlying benefit is to control, regulate and fix the gemstone market via.
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2
January 27, 2012 2:26:53 PM

@rawful - So happy you get it!!!!
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2
January 27, 2012 2:28:52 PM

dcompartIt's not Apple's problem, but rather the Chinese Gov't. The labor is there regardless if Apple saturates it. The hours and pay may be crap, but the alternative of no employment is much worse for the Chinese. Apple is being competitive in a competitive world. China continues to keep there currency under valued all while taking from the people to support under funded building project such as their knock off Manhattan.There's this emotional cause regarding "Blood Diamonds" that is to protect the best interests of native people, though there underlying benefit is to control, regulate and fix the gemstone market via.

More Total Crap.Governments cannot solve the problem unless their people understand what is acceptable human behavior in the first place, and the Chinese government has absolutely no idea what is acceptable human behavior.
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3
January 27, 2012 2:29:05 PM

"a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder. Makes you feel good, doesn't it? "
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0
January 27, 2012 2:32:08 PM

Fez777Something like the "Fair Trade" label needs applying to all the goods we buy, we need to know where everything comes from and the pay/conditions of the workers involved.


Are you willing to pay a premium for the product. In the food industry this form of branding gains little traction and due to baseless labeling (ex. BST free labeling) that has caught on. In tough economic times people buy based on price, not on the benefits of the niche.
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1
January 27, 2012 2:32:41 PM

Apple do have a responsability since they're directly supporting Foxconn in the way they treat their employees by buying from them. Since Apple has the long end of the stick, they could help the workers. Here's a simple and plausible scenario :

Apple : Hey Foxconn, we have the best-selling phone in the world. You want to build it for us? Start treating your workers right, else we'll move production to some other third-world country.
Foxconn : Okay, but we'll need to increase salaries by 10%.
Apple : No problem. We'll label the phone as "Fair trade" and price them 20% more.
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3
January 27, 2012 2:38:48 PM

If anyone here cares then don't buy Apple products or services, that is the least you can show your support, but if we did this to every products we buy then I would guess we would die of hunger and live in a tent.
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3
January 27, 2012 2:39:19 PM

theconsolegamerDie, Apple just die already.


Tell me your secret to positive upvotes, please; I never have such luck with your statements.
/agreed
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1
January 27, 2012 2:40:19 PM

Apple made 13 billion in 1 quarter of the year. If they took 1 billion out of that converted it into yuan and paid the 230 thousand workers at Foxconn it would more than double their yearly salary. They currently make 24 thousand yuan a year, that 1 billion would pay each worker an extra 27 thousand yuan a year. It is literally a drop in the bucket for a company like Apple to do something like this and if they did it would make everybody a lot happier.
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12
January 27, 2012 2:49:01 PM

Apple (nor any other company manufacturing there or even us buying their products) really care about the folks being exploited in China. How many of us will throw away our modern commodities or stop buying them to make a stand (or a point) that we don't want Chinese people being the 21th century slaves?

Are we really that good morally to pay 200usd+ for something that makes Chinese people leave like any other folk in a 1st rate country? Hardly it will make 10% of all the people reading here.

Apple is not the only one to point fingers here. WE ALL ARE AT FAULT HERE!

This is not a heads up for Apple alone; it's for everybody to understand what's going on within the Chinese mentality here.

Read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-americ...

That will give you all a better understanding of the Chinese.

Cheers!
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0
January 27, 2012 2:52:27 PM

lumberjack86Apple made 13 billion in 1 quarter of the year. If they took 1 billion out of that converted it into yuan and paid the 230 thousand workers at Foxconn it would more than double their yearly salary. They currently make 24 thousand yuan a year, that 1 billion would pay each worker an extra 27 thousand yuan a year. It is literally a drop in the bucket for a company like Apple to do something like this and if they did it would make everybody a lot happier.


Exactly, they wouldn't even have to raise the price. I am sure they would anyways, because that is the type of company Apple is (which is why they won't make Foxconn improve conditions in the first place).

Seriously though, this trade system ONLY benefits the corporations. It is not a benefit to America that we get cheap electronics, because now we have no jobs and our economy is crashing. It is not a benefit to Chinese workers to make us these cheap electronics, because their job has horrific work conditions and they don't even get paid enough to live off of what they go through, much less even afford to buy the freaking things that they are building.

We NEED to stop buying things made in third-world countries. It does not help their economy or living conditions and it kills ours. They are just being taken advantage of by corporations, just like we are. What would help the Chinese people is to set up a government that guarantees human rights, just as we used to have, and to build local economies, just like we used to have (you know, when we were prospering instead of slowly choking to death).
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6
January 27, 2012 2:56:07 PM

REPORT: Apple, Intel, AMD-ATI, Microsoft, Google, LG, Nvidia and every other American-based Tech company that outsources manufacturing jobs to China don't care about workers in China.

It's cheaper not to care than it is to care. If anyone of them cared, they'd contract factories in the US to make their products.
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6
January 27, 2012 2:58:11 PM

Well, at least Apple bothered to release a report on the working conditions in their supplier's factories. That is more than any other American tech company has done.
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0
January 27, 2012 2:58:42 PM

jtt283The onus is not on Apple. If the conditions are that bad (and I'm not implying they aren't; they appear to be atrocious) then a rational work force should refuse to work under those conditions. This is the main reason labor unions formed during the Industrial Revolution (even if not why they exist today). If unions or similar labor organizations are "illegal," then a political solution is required, over which Apple has no control unless you believe their responsibilities include sedition and supporting some kind of revolutionary movement.


It is on Apple. It's their facility, they should be making sure their employees have good working conditions. A political solution won't happen because of the government there, & most likely the employees are afraid to even attempt any type of refusal to work.
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0
January 27, 2012 3:00:07 PM

Hell Guard - Work faster you moron, just like how employees built your Apple products.
Jobs - I'm trying. By the way, this is the nicest, biggest mansion I ever got to build in heaven.

Hell Guard - Don't get used to it. You're going back down to hell after you're done building this.
Jobs - I know. I know. If I may ask, who's going to own this mansion in heaven?

Hell Guard - The guy you hated while you were alive. Starts with "Bill."
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1
January 27, 2012 3:01:03 PM

The NYTimes article focuses on Apple, but the truth is that a lot of major tech companies use Foxconn, and that pretty much every piece of technology the western world buys or uses on a regular basis was assembled in similar factories. TV's, bluray players, PS3, XBox360, the phone in our pocket, the computer we use every day, the monitor we're reading this article on and the keyboard we're using to comment with. Apple having one of the most successful quarters in history makes for a good way to bring the spotlight on a very real problem with the technology industry and how the western world consumes it. Rather than targeting one part (Apple) we should push for much larger changes in policy and accountability in all aspects.
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2
January 27, 2012 3:01:32 PM

The overall problem is very multi-faceted and our country's economic culture and resulting practices perpetuate this type of business model. No matter how many billions a company reports in terms of quarterly profits, it's never enough to support the incessant expectation of the markets for further growth. This results in a drive for yet further increases in efficiency and productivity at the expense of said company's workforce. Whether it's in regards to the tech sector or otherwise, consumer movements demanding the restoration of ethical business practices, the organization of labor, and true financial market reforms represent the backbone of any credible solution. America and the rest of the world have embraced supply-side economics for entirely too long at the expense of the health of the overall marketplace.
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January 27, 2012 3:02:52 PM

Quote:
Report: Apple Does Not Care About Anyone But Apple

Fixed that for ya!
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1
January 27, 2012 3:09:20 PM

i will be downvoted to -20 for this view i know it, but read most of this before the down vote.

in school, i watched a video about ge, and how they use to make nuke parts, and how that was bad. i tod the teacher i had stock in them, and i didn't care if they worshiped satan (i live in a fairly religious area, non practiceing and most are likely agnostic, but if ever asked, christian all around) killed infants, drank their blood and had an orgy in the entrails, so long as their stock went up i didnt care. she tried to have me suspended for that point of view, but it just went to detention. i said that so you know where im comeing from when i say the rest.

in other 3ed world countries, sweat shops are honestly the best work you can get, and child labor, while sad, is really their only way to live. when asked a girl child laborer, she said it was either the sweat shop or prostitution. i always say that we should place out first world values on an impoverishment third world country.

now foxxicon, i hear their government contracts people pretty much against their will to work there. if thats true, than i have a major problem with that.

but if its peoples choice... i couldnt care less what the working conditions are, because again, they are a more or less impoverished third world country, at least as non major city living standards go. if they chose to work there, than that must be their only other option for them.

i can even understand the suicides, because if all i had to look forward to in life was working for jack inside a building than sleep... id be the first to toss myself off the building. and like i said, this only applies if its their choice.
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-5
January 27, 2012 3:11:57 PM

We are spoiled and reliant on our tech gadgets, but there are little things we can do to protest this. For starters, I use my old products for as long as I can, only buying a new replacement when I absolutely have to. Furthermore, I try to stick to the 2nd-hand market, or rebuild//refurbish a device - it both saves a device from going to the landfill, and even keeps somebody from buying that brand-new toy.

The last "new" laptop I bought was 8 years ago. I still use a Palm T|X I bought about 6 years ago and with some repairs still works just fine. My desktop computers are all self-built, only replacing//upgrading parts when the old part dies.
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7
January 27, 2012 3:24:08 PM

alidani will be downvoted to -20 for this view i know it, but read most of this before the down vote. in school, i watched a video about ge, and how they use to make nuke parts, and how that was bad. i tod the teacher i had stock in them, and i didn't care if they worshiped satan (i live in a fairly religious area, non practiceing and most are likely agnostic, but if ever asked, christian all around) killed infants, drank their blood and had an orgy in the entrails, so long as their stock went up i didnt care. she tried to have me suspended for that point of view, but it just went to detention. i said that so you know where im comeing from when i say the rest. in other 3ed world countries, sweat shops are honestly the best work you can get, and child labor, while sad, is really their only way to live. when asked a girl child laborer, she said it was either the sweat shop or prostitution. i always say that we should place out first world values on an impoverishment third world country. now foxxicon, i hear their government contracts people pretty much against their will to work there. if thats true, than i have a major problem with that. but if its peoples choice... i couldnt care less what the working conditions are, because again, they are a more or less impoverished third world country, at least as non major city living standards go. if they chose to work there, than that must be their only other option for them. i can even understand the suicides, because if all i had to look forward to in life was working for jack inside a building than sleep... id be the first to toss myself off the building. and like i said, this only applies if its their choice.


I have honestly disagreed with every single viewpoint you have had on every issue I have seen you comment on. I consider your mentality to be completely unacceptable in society, and would label you as a psychopath. You, and people like you, are the root of the reason we are in such dire times.

You dare to justify third world working conditions by saying they could have it slightly worse by not working in the sweat shop? What happens when they get injured in the job? They get fired and starve to death. Working in the sweat shop propagates this system. You, by not caring about anything but your wallet, propagate this system. You should be the one working in the sweat shop, and then see how badly you wish people like you didn't exist.
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4
January 27, 2012 3:30:21 PM

Quote:
ever cared about anything other than increasing product quality and decreasing production cost"

Show me a single business in this world, especially publicly-traded, that doesn't live by this line!
This article is pointless, otherwise Americans wouldn't be complaining these days about EVERYTHING we buy being made in China. There's a reason manufacturing left the states - this line applies to them all, not just Apple. Don't single out and point fingers at only Apple like this article does - point at every industry that does and has been doing it for years. China is a scapegoat for the world economy really. Many countries/companies outsource to them, how many do you think ever asked "how will the workers be treated?" rather than "how cheap can you manufacture this?" - blame them all.
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4
January 27, 2012 3:35:50 PM

Apple, Sony, Microsoft, Toshiba, Asus, Acer, Samsung, Motorola, Cisco - none of them care - I appreciate targeting Apple because they are making lots of money and are visible but let's put them all to task or admit being hypocrites.
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2
January 27, 2012 3:39:39 PM

I'm no Apple fanboy but this just isn't news. BUSINESS 101: RULE #1 SELL YOUR PRODUCT FOR ALL THE TRAFFIUC WILL BEAR. RULE #2 PRODUCE YOUR PRODUCT AS CHEAPLY AS POSSIBLE.

These rules apply to all businesses everywhere including Apple. Those who express amazement or indignation at articles like this are simply naive.
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4
January 27, 2012 3:47:32 PM

ram1009I'm no Apple fanboy but this just isn't news. BUSINESS 101: RULE #1 SELL YOUR PRODUCT FOR ALL THE TRAFFIUC WILL BEAR. RULE #2 PRODUCE YOUR PRODUCT AS CHEAPLY AS POSSIBLE.These rules apply to all businesses everywhere including Apple. Those who express amazement or indignation at articles like this are simply naive.


Unfortunately, I believe it is you who is naive. That is the business mentality that has been bred into people by the system, that isn't the way it has to be. First of all, a corporation was never the same as a company. That was a change in laws funded by John D. Rockefeller (who had a famous quote, "Competition is a sin.") to allow him to create a legal entity to conduct business with without any liability upon himself.

A corporation USED to be an organization of companies chartered by the state government to complete a certain task, such as: build a bridge, build a road. Now it is an entity required by law to do everything it legally can to return maximum profits to shareholders. Also, corporations were given the power to lobby since they twisted the laws to give a corporation the rights of people, and so slowly have been able to change over our government from what it once was and tried to be, to what it is now, which is a conglomerate of lying mongrels who pass laws to enable the corporations to get more profits while keeping the people under stricter and stricter control.

This is the way things are now, but not the way it should be, or has to be. Drop that mentality.
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4
January 27, 2012 4:07:51 PM

"the company's spotless image"

LOL; how did the author come up with this one ?
Could have been written by the Grimm brothers :-)
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0
January 27, 2012 4:09:59 PM

If the consumers really cared about these workers, they would refuse to buy from Apple instead of keep buying and then bitch about it.

I, on the other hand, buy the highest quality product that I am willing to part my money for. If I cared about the workers, I would pay more. If I didn't, I look at the price alone. I don't buy and then complain about it.
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-2
January 27, 2012 4:16:03 PM

ram1009 and rawful, you're both right, in context. Remove coercion in any form, and Rule #2 will hit its natural limit at what a rational work force is willing to accept. If the workforce is denied choice, however, then you're dealing with slave labor. That is a political issue, not a business one (a business can't have slaves unless it's legal to do so). That "everyone does it" doesn't excuse Apple, but should certainly illustrate what I meant when I said it isn't their responsibility to change it. Should they try, they will either price themselves out of existence by paying fair wages (leaving things business-as-usual for everyone else), or commit acts of sedition or subversion which will get them kicked out and/or imprisoned; again clearing them out of the way. As a POLITICAL issue, the work force needs to organize, and if that means replacing a government that is enslaving them, then that's what it takes.
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January 27, 2012 4:49:31 PM

Yeah, sadly if the chinese workers try to form a union, or a movement, they get executed by the government, who censors all news of it. A form of government like that, with today's technology, would be extremely hard to overthrow from within.
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January 27, 2012 5:03:29 PM

zak_mckrakenApple do have a responsability since they're directly supporting Foxconn in the way they treat their employees by buying from them. Since Apple has the long end of the stick, they could help the workers. Here's a simple and plausible scenario :Apple : Hey Foxconn, we have the best-selling phone in the world. You want to build it for us? Start treating your workers right, else we'll move production to some other third-world country.Foxconn : Okay, but we'll need to increase salaries by 10%.Apple : No problem. We'll label the phone as "Fair trade" and price them 20% more.

IMHO, what you cite is symptomatic of the base of the problem - everyone wants more for less cost. So, companies turn their heads at human beings dying in the name of profit. That, IMHO, is simply not right. Not right at all. And the more people that insist on "making more money" at the cost of all else including lives, the worse it gets. This is happening in every economy. If anyone reading this were running a company, would you, as a company head, want the lives of employees on your conscience just for the sake of company profit?

And there are some labeling programs out there that do actually mean something. "Fair Trade" is one of those. Industry invented garbage labeling like "FlexFuel" has little meaning as you already know.
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January 27, 2012 5:04:15 PM

It appears that most of you minus a few are missing the bigger picture. We (The United States) are a consumer society. We REQUIRE our products to be cheap and easy to obtain. Nearly ALL manufacturing of some sort is done overseas for the explicit purpose of cost and that they can beat most if not all of our US prices to produce the same product. I said MOST manufacturing, not ALL manufacturing. We as a country make very little that goes overseas to other countries because it is very expensive compared to theirs.

I am by no means a fan-boy of Apple or any manufacturer. But to pick on Apple for something that most of the entire US companies do is ignorant at best. These companies shop for the best prices from any manufacturer and go with who meets the price and can deliver the quality they want. No more, no less.
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January 27, 2012 5:09:52 PM

greenmachineiijhIt appears that most of you minus a few are missing the bigger picture. We (The United States) are a consumer society. We REQUIRE our products to be cheap and easy to obtain. Nearly ALL manufacturing of some sort is done overseas for the explicit purpose of cost and that they can beat most if not all of our US prices to produce the same product. I said MOST manufacturing, not ALL manufacturing. We as a country make very little that goes overseas to other countries because it is very expensive compared to theirs.I am by no means a fan-boy of Apple or any manufacturer. But to pick on Apple for something that most of the entire US companies do is ignorant at best. These companies shop for the best prices from any manufacturer and go with who meets the price and can deliver the quality they want. No more, no less.


I am not picking on Apple, I deliberately stated it is all corporations that use third-world labor forces to make their goods. We are not only a consumer society, our economy is based on DEBT not PRODUCTION. This is NOT sustainable, this is why we have such high unemployment, this is why our dollar is being devalued... We need to make our goods here again. We need to buy American goods. Why? Because that benefits the American economy and the American people. Buying goods made in China in sweat shops does NOT benefit either America nor China. Our economy will crash and we can't buy any more from them. Their economy will crash since they have nobody to sell to, since they don't sell to themselves since their employees do not get paid enough to buy anything.
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Anonymous
January 27, 2012 5:10:03 PM

China needs to care about its people first. Apple second.
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January 27, 2012 5:16:46 PM

JustAThoughtChina needs to care about its people first. Apple second.

Great thought that is, seriously. I think it unfortunate that the Chinese govt currently has no clue how to do that.
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January 27, 2012 5:22:27 PM

rawful said:
I am not picking on Apple, I deliberately stated it is all corporations that use third-world labor forces to make their goods. We are not only a consumer society, our economy is based on DEBT not PRODUCTION. This is NOT sustainable, this is why we have such high unemployment, this is why our dollar is being devalued... We need to make our goods here again. We need to buy American goods. Why? Because that benefits the American economy and the American people. Buying goods made in China in sweat shops does NOT benefit either America nor China. Our economy will crash and we can't buy any more from them. Their economy will crash since they have nobody to sell to, since they don't sell to themselves since their employees do not get paid enough to buy anything.

Nial Ferguson's "The Ascent of Money" covers all this in a rather interesting fashion that is very similar to your thoughts. The root of the problem, as I understand what he is saying, is that money is a fictitious invention.
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January 27, 2012 5:25:22 PM

How about this headline... 'Chinese government doesn't care about workers in China.'

They are commies! They are government owned and the Chinese government is just sharing the exploitation of their populace for their own monetary gain.

Just about every worker in the entire country is a human rights case. It's legalized indentured servitude and 90% of the Chinese population is part of the mix.

How long will the short-term profits keep everyone turning a blind eye to something companies would have been persecuted for just 20 years ago?
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January 27, 2012 5:34:23 PM

I know this is an Apple bashing site, but keep in mind as you bash. Microsoft also uses Foxconn. This article could very easily swap Apple for Microsoft. This comment comes from a non biased user. I use both Microsoft and Apple products.
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January 27, 2012 5:37:23 PM

wiyosayaNial Ferguson's "The Ascent of Money" covers all this in a rather interesting fashion that is very similar to your thoughts. The root of the problem, as I understand what he is saying, is that money is a fictitious invention.


Not money, but fiat money. Paper money is worthless. Money backed by gold and silver is not worthless paper, because there is something with real value backing it. Money is an absolute necessity for bartering. If you wanted something, but only had, let's say, fish and firewood to trade, then you can only get things from people who wanted fish or firewood. If you wanted something from someone, and they didn't want fish or firewood, you wouldn't be able to make a trade. So gold/silver was picked to use for trading. If the person didn't want fish or firewood, you could trade gold/silver with them and get what you need, and they would accept it because they knew that it would be accepted in trade for something they need later.

Fiat money is just worthless paper, it is a fictitious worthless currency propagated by the banks so that they could lend more money than they have. Historically, I think every fiat money system has eventually fallen to inflation and devaluation.
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