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Root cause of archived video DVD intermittent jerkiness

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Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:29:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

Why do archived DVDs sometimes play jerkily like a blockey jigsaw puzzle?

.. I buy & archive a DVD (using DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, & Nero).
.. Nero has validated the archive data & no warnings ensued
.. That archived video DVD plays without jerkiness in the pc.

.. I now play that DVD in my bottom-end DVD player hooked to a TV
.. Sometimes the video is jerky (but no warnings issues by Nero).
.. Sometimes that SAME video DVD is not jerky (go figure).

.. The archived DVD disc is NOT scratched or dirty (it's brand new).
.. That same archived DVD disc plays without jerkiness in the PC.
.. If I power cycle the DVD player, often the jerkiness disappears!

Huh?

QUESTION:
What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 8:53:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

M. T. Arnough wrote:
> Why do archived DVDs sometimes play jerkily like a blockey jigsaw puzzle?
>
> . I buy & archive a DVD (using DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, & Nero).
> . Nero has validated the archive data & no warnings ensued
> . That archived video DVD plays without jerkiness in the pc.
>
> . I now play that DVD in my bottom-end DVD player hooked to a TV
> . Sometimes the video is jerky (but no warnings issues by Nero).
> . Sometimes that SAME video DVD is not jerky (go figure).
>
> . The archived DVD disc is NOT scratched or dirty (it's brand new).
> . That same archived DVD disc plays without jerkiness in the PC.
> . If I power cycle the DVD player, often the jerkiness disappears!
>
> Huh?
>
> QUESTION:
> What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?

Try your archived DVD in a recent machine that supports DVD-R or DVD+R
explicitly (i.e., says so on the label). I had the same problem but it
was the player not the DVD. They play fine on my new player.

-Bill
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 10:01:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

I had a similar problem when I recorded material on a stand-alone Panasonic
DVD recorder. Turns out the problem was that I had the quality set too
_high_ (on the 1-hour mode). I'm pretty sure that the higher data rate
overloaded the input buffer of the cheap DVD player.

When I reduced the quality to the 2-hour mode, everything was OK.

I'm guessing here, but maybe you're archiving at a too-high bit rate ?

Steve



"M. T. Arnough" <emptyarnough@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1bok02hrkc6yc$.1525f7nwv4d9s$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Why do archived DVDs sometimes play jerkily like a blockey jigsaw puzzle?
>
> . I buy & archive a DVD (using DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, & Nero).
> . Nero has validated the archive data & no warnings ensued
> . That archived video DVD plays without jerkiness in the pc.
>
> . I now play that DVD in my bottom-end DVD player hooked to a TV
> . Sometimes the video is jerky (but no warnings issues by Nero).
> . Sometimes that SAME video DVD is not jerky (go figure).
>
> . The archived DVD disc is NOT scratched or dirty (it's brand new).
> . That same archived DVD disc plays without jerkiness in the PC.
> . If I power cycle the DVD player, often the jerkiness disappears!
>
> Huh?
>
> QUESTION:
> What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?
Related resources
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 10:01:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

> "M. T. Arnough" <emptyarnough@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1bok02hrkc6yc$.1525f7nwv4d9s$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> Why do archived DVDs sometimes play jerkily like a blockey jigsaw puzzle?
>>
>> . I buy & archive a DVD (using DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, & Nero).
>> . Nero has validated the archive data & no warnings ensued
>> . That archived video DVD plays without jerkiness in the pc.
>>
>> . I now play that DVD in my bottom-end DVD player hooked to a TV
>> . Sometimes the video is jerky (but no warnings issues by Nero).
>> . Sometimes that SAME video DVD is not jerky (go figure).
>>
>> . The archived DVD disc is NOT scratched or dirty (it's brand new).
>> . That same archived DVD disc plays without jerkiness in the PC.
>> . If I power cycle the DVD player, often the jerkiness disappears!
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> QUESTION:
>> What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?
>
>
"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iYKMe.8548$Je.2882@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>I had a similar problem when I recorded material on a stand-alone Panasonic
> DVD recorder. Turns out the problem was that I had the quality set too
> _high_ (on the 1-hour mode). I'm pretty sure that the higher data rate
> overloaded the input buffer of the cheap DVD player.
>
> When I reduced the quality to the 2-hour mode, everything was OK.
>
> I'm guessing here, but maybe you're archiving at a too-high bit rate ?
>
> Steve
>

The usual cause of the "Jerkyness" is dropped frames during
capture, and how they are handled by your capture software.
The PC player, and the newer players another responder
mentioned, make use of buffers and more sophisticated
algorithms to smoothly play through such dropouts.

The approach I find easiest, is to use www.VideoReDo.com
on my .mpg before authoring a DVD. A re-mux in VRD will
remove the problem altogether.

Recording at lower settings, or at a smaller image size (if the
recorder allows such settings) would make dropouts much
less likely, and so could correct the problem, also.

(My first instinct would be to blame Nero Express, as it
wants to use its own codec for every thing, so you might
try authoring your DVD with a trial of "TMPGEnc DVD
Author", "DVD Lab Pro", or even "Movie Factory 4".
Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
though.)

Luck;
Ken
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 10:01:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

In article <JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com>,
"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
> though.)
>
> Luck;
> Ken

I've written this a bunch of times before, but it bears repetition.

A nice DVD Recorder might run you a few hundred bucks. Let's call it
$300 for the sake of argument.

Out of that, half probably gets assigned to profit/marketing. So lets
say you're left with 150.00. Middlemen, shipping, etc probably eat up
half of that. So you can't economically have more than 75 bucks worth of
actual parts in the thing. More likely less than $50. So how much does
that mean the critical internal units like the stepper motors that move
the laser over the disc surface and the laser itself are really worth?
Five bucks Three bucks? Fifth cents?

We're asking this to PRECISELY write data to a disc spining at thousands
of RPMS, while those stepper motors move the laser over the surface so
precisely that the data bands and guard bands are in EXCELLENT alignment
and therefore easily read by any other player.

Including players with equally cheap components.

Do we ever drop or jar our players such that it would be reasonable to
think those critical optical components might get mis-alligned? How
about age and wear on the belts/pullys/motor windings. Might those ever
perform less than optimally?

The more I understand about home DVD burners/players it's a miracle they
work as well as they do.

And those are extremely rough guestimates about the economics of a
"pricy" DVD player.

How about that unit sitting on your shelf that cost you $49.95 at Costco.

What did they budget for the stepper motors in THAt beast.

Sheesh.

Want better playback? Buy a new machine, and replace it with a newer one
every six months.

At $100 bucks a year, it'll save you a thousand bucks in grief. And you
can regularly pass along your old gear to family and friends and make
them happy.

My 2 cents anyway.
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 10:01:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"William Davis" <newvideo@fastq.com> wrote in message
news:newvideo-AEE47B.13050817082005@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com>,
> "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
>> though.)
>>
>> Luck;
>> Ken
>
> I've written this a bunch of times before, but it bears repetition.
>
> A nice DVD Recorder might run you a few hundred bucks. Let's call it
> $300 for the sake of argument.
>
> Out of that, half probably gets assigned to profit/marketing. So lets
> say you're left with 150.00. Middlemen, shipping, etc probably eat up
> half of that. So you can't economically have more than 75 bucks worth of
> actual parts in the thing. More likely less than $50. So how much does
> that mean the critical internal units like the stepper motors that move
> the laser over the disc surface and the laser itself are really worth?
> Five bucks Three bucks? Fifth cents?
>
> We're asking this to PRECISELY write data to a disc spining at thousands
> of RPMS, while those stepper motors move the laser over the surface so
> precisely that the data bands and guard bands are in EXCELLENT alignment
> and therefore easily read by any other player.
>
> Including players with equally cheap components.
>
> Do we ever drop or jar our players such that it would be reasonable to
> think those critical optical components might get mis-alligned? How
> about age and wear on the belts/pullys/motor windings. Might those ever
> perform less than optimally?
>
> The more I understand about home DVD burners/players it's a miracle they
> work as well as they do.
>
> And those are extremely rough guestimates about the economics of a
> "pricy" DVD player.
>
> How about that unit sitting on your shelf that cost you $49.95 at Costco.
>
> What did they budget for the stepper motors in THAt beast.
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Want better playback? Buy a new machine, and replace it with a newer one
> every six months.
>
> At $100 bucks a year, it'll save you a thousand bucks in grief. And you
> can regularly pass along your old gear to family and friends and make
> them happy.
>
> My 2 cents anyway.

It is surprising how little it costs to mark up a new IC when
your engineering staff is working to advance the Great Red
Revolution and bring honor and glory to the PLA General
appointed over them.

Luck;
Ken
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:55:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

Ok, fine. But there was no capture card involved in my scenario, only a
Panasonic stand-alone recorder.

I'm sticking with the too-high bit-rate theory.

Steve



"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com...
> > "M. T. Arnough" <emptyarnough@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1bok02hrkc6yc$.1525f7nwv4d9s$.dlg@40tude.net...
> >> Why do archived DVDs sometimes play jerkily like a blockey jigsaw
puzzle?
> >>
> >> . I buy & archive a DVD (using DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, & Nero).
> >> . Nero has validated the archive data & no warnings ensued
> >> . That archived video DVD plays without jerkiness in the pc.
> >>
> >> . I now play that DVD in my bottom-end DVD player hooked to a TV
> >> . Sometimes the video is jerky (but no warnings issues by Nero).
> >> . Sometimes that SAME video DVD is not jerky (go figure).
> >>
> >> . The archived DVD disc is NOT scratched or dirty (it's brand new).
> >> . That same archived DVD disc plays without jerkiness in the PC.
> >> . If I power cycle the DVD player, often the jerkiness disappears!
> >>
> >> Huh?
> >>
> >> QUESTION:
> >> What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?
> >
> >
> "Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:iYKMe.8548$Je.2882@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >I had a similar problem when I recorded material on a stand-alone
Panasonic
> > DVD recorder. Turns out the problem was that I had the quality set too
> > _high_ (on the 1-hour mode). I'm pretty sure that the higher data rate
> > overloaded the input buffer of the cheap DVD player.
> >
> > When I reduced the quality to the 2-hour mode, everything was OK.
> >
> > I'm guessing here, but maybe you're archiving at a too-high bit rate ?
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> The usual cause of the "Jerkyness" is dropped frames during
> capture, and how they are handled by your capture software.
> The PC player, and the newer players another responder
> mentioned, make use of buffers and more sophisticated
> algorithms to smoothly play through such dropouts.
>
> The approach I find easiest, is to use www.VideoReDo.com
> on my .mpg before authoring a DVD. A re-mux in VRD will
> remove the problem altogether.
>
> Recording at lower settings, or at a smaller image size (if the
> recorder allows such settings) would make dropouts much
> less likely, and so could correct the problem, also.
>
> (My first instinct would be to blame Nero Express, as it
> wants to use its own codec for every thing, so you might
> try authoring your DVD with a trial of "TMPGEnc DVD
> Author", "DVD Lab Pro", or even "Movie Factory 4".
> Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
> though.)
>
> Luck;
> Ken
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:55:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

>> > "M. T. Arnough" <emptyarnough@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1bok02hrkc6yc$.1525f7nwv4d9s$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> >> Why do archived DVDs sometimes play jerkily like a blockey jigsaw
> puzzle?
>> >>
>> >> . I buy & archive a DVD (using DVD Decrypter, DVD Shrink, & Nero).
>> >> . Nero has validated the archive data & no warnings ensued
>> >> . That archived video DVD plays without jerkiness in the pc.
>> >>
>> >> . I now play that DVD in my bottom-end DVD player hooked to a TV
>> >> . Sometimes the video is jerky (but no warnings issues by Nero).
>> >> . Sometimes that SAME video DVD is not jerky (go figure).
>> >>
<Snip>
>> >> QUESTION:
>> >> What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?
>> >

> "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com...

>> The usual cause of the "Jerkyness" is dropped frames during
>> capture, and how they are handled by your capture software.
>> The PC player, and the newer players another responder
>> mentioned, make use of buffers and more sophisticated
>> algorithms to smoothly play through such dropouts.
>>
>> The approach I find easiest, is to use www.VideoReDo.com
>> on my .mpg before authoring a DVD. A re-mux in VRD will
>> remove the problem altogether.
>>
>> Recording at lower settings, or at a smaller image size (if the
>> recorder allows such settings) would make dropouts much
>> less likely, and so could correct the problem, also.
>>
>> (My first instinct would be to blame Nero Express, as it
>> wants to use its own codec for every thing, so you might
>> try authoring your DVD with a trial of "TMPGEnc DVD
>> Author", "DVD Lab Pro", or even "Movie Factory 4".
>> Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
>> though.)
>>
>> Luck;
>> Ken
>>

"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:NCMMe.8636$Je.6829@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Ok, fine. But there was no capture card involved in my scenario, only a
> Panasonic stand-alone recorder.
>
> I'm sticking with the too-high bit-rate theory.
>
> Steve
>

It is customary for a responder to reply to the OP and
the subject line, first. As to your approach to the problem
I would suggest you reread the third paragraph of my reply.
Sorry, if I didn't hear your cry for help, I thought we were
both addressing the OP's question.

You seem to have found a solution to your problem, so
what's your complaint about my not addressing your
"scenario"?

Luck;
Ken
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:48:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"William Davis" wrote ...
> A nice DVD Recorder might run you a few hundred
> bucks. Let's call it $300 for the sake of argument.
>
> Out of that, half probably gets assigned to profit/marketing.
> So lets say you're left with 150.00. Middlemen, shipping,
> etc probably eat up half of that. So you can't economically
> have more than 75 bucks worth of actual parts in the thing.
> More likely less than $50. So how much does that mean the
> critical internal units like the stepper motors that move the
> laser over the disc surface and the laser itself are really
> worth? Five bucks Three bucks? Fifth cents?

There are no stepping motors in modern CD or DVD
players/recorders/computer drives.

The disc is rotated by a small DC motor.
The "gross" position of the head is done with another cheap
DC motor.
Then "voice-coil" technology is used for the dynamic "fine"
position (in 3 axes) of the optical head.

The spindle- and head-position motors and the three voice
coil axes are controlled by a long servo "circuit" which began
back in the digital decoding of the optical data from the pickup
head. This system of five servos control the voltage to the five
servo "transducers".

> We're asking this to PRECISELY write data to a disc spining
> at thousands of RPMS, while those stepper motors move the
> laser over the surface so precisely that the data bands and
> guard bands are in EXCELLENT alignment and therefore
> easily read by any other player.

It is an impressive design/execution, but not THAT impressive.
"Blank", field-burnable discs are not really blank. They have
the tracks moulded into the plastic. This is what guides the five
servos to keep the optical head aligned with the spinning track.

When writing a disc, we are merely "burning" into the photo-
sensitive layer behind the moulded tracks. On commercially-
moulded discs, the data pits are moulded along with the track
definitions and backed with sputtered aluminum (for reflection).

Now when they make the optical master for pressing/moulding
commercial CDs and DVDs, that is a different matter. There,
the writing head IS truly on its own and its position must be
precisely controlled by the equipment. But those things are
many times larger, heavier, more precise (and more expensive)
than any CD or DVD drives, players, or recorders we deal with.

> Including players with equally cheap components.
>
> Do we ever drop or jar our players such that it would
> be reasonable to think those critical optical components
> might get mis-alligned? How about age and wear on the
> belts/pullys/motor windings. Might those ever perform
> less than optimally?

Yes, all of those are risks to any system that relies on such
precision to read/write. Fortunately, the servos are able to
keep up with most of the nastiness, and when they can't, the
drive just gives up and spits out the disc.

The only rubber I've ever seen in any of those kinds of
drives/mechanisms is the drawer open/close "gear-train"
on some designs where they use a rubber belt between
the DC motor and the first gear in the speed-reduction
train.

> The more I understand about home DVD burners/players
> it's a miracle they work as well as they do.

They ARE pretty miraculous. But use of high-speed servos
(enabled by cheap, high-speed computing resources) has
made it practical to bring this high-technology to the public.

> And those are extremely rough guestimates about the
> economics of a "pricy" DVD player.
>
> How about that unit sitting on your shelf that cost you
> $49.95 at Costco.
>
> What did they budget for the stepper motors in THAt beast.

The spindle motor may have even cost more than a buck
because of the bearings, clamping mechanism, etc. But I
doubt the head-positioning motor is more than a buck.
The three axes on the optical head may cost more than a
buck all together if only because of the cost of the rare-earth
magnets, etc.

But zero for actual "stepping motors". OTOH I believe that
modern inkjet printers still use steppers for both axes. But
then laser printers are back to DC servo IIRC.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:54:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

>
> But zero for actual "stepping motors". OTOH I believe that modern inkjet
> printers still use steppers for both axes.

You are correct.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:59:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:05:08 -0700, William Davis <newvideo@fastq.com>
wrote:

>In article <JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com>,
> "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
>> though.)
>>
>> Luck;
>> Ken
>
>I've written this a bunch of times before, but it bears repetition.
>
> A nice DVD Recorder might run you a few hundred bucks. Let's call it
>$300 for the sake of argument.
>
>Out of that, half probably gets assigned to profit/marketing. So lets
>say you're left with 150.00. Middlemen, shipping, etc probably eat up
>half of that. So you can't economically have more than 75 bucks worth of
>actual parts in the thing. More likely less than $50. So how much does
>that mean the critical internal units like the stepper motors that move
>the laser over the disc surface and the laser itself are really worth?
>Five bucks Three bucks? Fifth cents?
>
>We're asking this to PRECISELY write data to a disc spining at thousands
>of RPMS, while those stepper motors move the laser over the surface so
>precisely that the data bands and guard bands are in EXCELLENT alignment
>and therefore easily read by any other player.
>
>Including players with equally cheap components.
>
>Do we ever drop or jar our players such that it would be reasonable to
>think those critical optical components might get mis-alligned? How
>about age and wear on the belts/pullys/motor windings. Might those ever
>perform less than optimally?
>
>The more I understand about home DVD burners/players it's a miracle they
>work as well as they do.
>
>And those are extremely rough guestimates about the economics of a
>"pricy" DVD player.
>
>How about that unit sitting on your shelf that cost you $49.95 at Costco.
>
>What did they budget for the stepper motors in THAt beast.
>
>Sheesh.
>
>Want better playback? Buy a new machine, and replace it with a newer one
>every six months.
>
>At $100 bucks a year, it'll save you a thousand bucks in grief. And you
>can regularly pass along your old gear to family and friends and make
>them happy.

If it's as bad as you say, passing along the old gear to family and
friends might not be doing them much of a favor. Fortunately, in my
experience anyway, it's not nearly as bad as you say.

>
>My 2 cents anyway.

And mine. :) 

--
Bill
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 4:27:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"William Davis" <newvideo@fastq.com> wrote in message
news:newvideo-AEE47B.13050817082005@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com>,
> "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
> > though.)
> >
> > Luck;
> > Ken
>
> I've written this a bunch of times before, but it bears repetition.
>

>
> We're asking this to PRECISELY write data to a disc spining at thousands
> of RPMS, while those stepper motors move the laser over the surface so
> precisely that the data bands and guard bands are in EXCELLENT alignment
> and therefore easily read by any other player.

The design makes this accuracy cheap.

> Including players with equally cheap components.

Most use the SAME components.
>
> Do we ever drop or jar our players such that it would be reasonable to
> think those critical optical components might get mis-alligned? How
> about age and wear on the belts/pullys/motor windings. Might those ever
> perform less than optimally?

No belts or pulleys in a DVD player.

>
> The more I understand about home DVD burners/players it's a miracle they
> work as well as they do.

Not really that complex. It is a combination of a few proven technologies.

>
> And those are extremely rough guestimates about the economics of a
> "pricy" DVD player.
>
> How about that unit sitting on your shelf that cost you $49.95 at Costco.
>
> What did they budget for the stepper motors in THAt beast.

The steppers all come from the same place for the most part. And none of the
steppers in these devices are THAT high resolution.


>
> Sheesh.

Sheesh and Shong.


>
> Want better playback? Buy a new machine, and replace it with a newer one
> every six months.
>
> At $100 bucks a year, it'll save you a thousand bucks in grief. And you
> can regularly pass along your old gear to family and friends and make
> them happy.
>
> My 2 cents anyway.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 4:27:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Jona Vark" <noemail@all.com> wrote in message
news:MBQMe.347$L03.332@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "William Davis" <newvideo@fastq.com> wrote in message
> news:newvideo-AEE47B.13050817082005@news.west.cox.net...
>> In article <JZWdnW0mtu5XEZ7eRVn-sg@giganews.com>,
>> "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Nero is probably not the cause of your "Jerkyness"
>> > though.)
>> >
>> > Luck;
>> > Ken
>>
>> I've written this a bunch of times before, but it bears repetition.
>>
>
>>
>> We're asking this to PRECISELY write data to a disc spining at thousands
>> of RPMS, while those stepper motors move the laser over the surface so
>> precisely that the data bands and guard bands are in EXCELLENT alignment
>> and therefore easily read by any other player.
>
> The design makes this accuracy cheap.
>
>> Including players with equally cheap components.
>
> Most use the SAME components.
>>
>> Do we ever drop or jar our players such that it would be reasonable to
>> think those critical optical components might get mis-alligned? How
>> about age and wear on the belts/pullys/motor windings. Might those ever
>> perform less than optimally?
>
> No belts or pulleys in a DVD player.
>
>>
>> The more I understand about home DVD burners/players it's a miracle they
>> work as well as they do.
>
> Not really that complex. It is a combination of a few proven technologies.
>
>>
>> And those are extremely rough guestimates about the economics of a
>> "pricy" DVD player.
>>
>> How about that unit sitting on your shelf that cost you $49.95 at Costco.
>>
>> What did they budget for the stepper motors in THAt beast.
>
> The steppers all come from the same place for the most part. And none of
> the
> steppers in these devices are THAT high resolution.


Oh no? You do not know anything about it, so stop making up idiocy.
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 5:30:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

> > Ok, fine. But there was no capture card involved in my scenario, only
a
> > Panasonic stand-alone recorder.
> >
> > I'm sticking with the too-high bit-rate theory.
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> It is customary for a responder to reply to the OP and
> the subject line, first. As to your approach to the problem
> I would suggest you reread the third paragraph of my reply.
> Sorry, if I didn't hear your cry for help, I thought we were
> both addressing the OP's question.
>
> You seem to have found a solution to your problem, so
> what's your complaint about my not addressing your
> "scenario"?
>
> Luck;
> Ken

Ken,

Life is too short for me to complain about your post. And that wasn't the
point. Rather, your post seemed to be responding to me, and - - working
under that assumption - - it seemed that you hadn't bothered to read my
post, but were rather just expounding on your own position.

Mrs. Altenburg, my 5th grade English teacher, would give us both deductions
for "unclear antecedents".

In my mind, it's over, and I have no beef with you.

All the best . . .

Steve
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 2:02:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop (More info?)

>>> QUESTION:
>>> What could be causing this intermittently jerky blocky video playback?

I too have jerkiness using DVD Shrink and Sonic Record Now.
Is everyone saying the problem is in the DVD player or the copying
software?

If it's in the player, how come only some newly burned DVDs have jerkiness
and others don't (when using the same equipment on both sides).

Isn't it the original DVD which is the real culprit in jerky copies?
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 3:55:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

On 8/17/2005, Alpha managed to type:
> Now, tell me that sub-micron resolution is not very precise. What a maroon.
>
> http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdintro/dvd_sp...

I have read descriptions of CD technology which indicate that the
submicron accuracy is achieved by small adjustments using voice-coil
actuators driven by optical feedback. This occurs along and across the
tracks and also in the vertical (focus) direction, and the submicron
accuracy comes from these adjustments.

The same feedback signals are used to keep the coarser motors
(including the rotation motor) in a more-or-less accurate average
position, but the voice coils make up for the inaccuracies and the lag
times.

I have no reason to think that DVD drives work any differently.

HTH,
Gino

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 4:08:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

On 8/18/2005, Gene E. Bloch managed to type:
> On 8/17/2005, Alpha managed to type:
>> Now, tell me that sub-micron resolution is not very precise. What a
>> maroon.
>>
>> http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdintro/dvd_sp...
>
> I have read descriptions of CD technology which indicate that the submicron
> accuracy is achieved by small adjustments using voice-coil actuators driven
> by optical feedback. This occurs along and across the tracks and also in the
> vertical (focus) direction, and the submicron accuracy comes from these
> adjustments.
>
> The same feedback signals are used to keep the coarser motors (including the
> rotation motor) in a more-or-less accurate average position, but the voice
> coils make up for the inaccuracies and the lag times.
>
> I have no reason to think that DVD drives work any differently.
>
> HTH,
> Gino

I just read Richard Crowley's post below in the thread on the same
subject, and I yield to his greater knowledge.

Thanks, Richard. I should have read more before adding my 2¢!

Gino

--
Gene E. Bloch (Gino)
letters617blochg3251
(replace the numbers by "at" and "dotcom")
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:25:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

In article <mn.92d87d589735859b.1980@nobody.invalid>,
"Gene E. Bloch" <spamfree@nobody.invalid> wrote:

> On 8/18/2005, Gene E. Bloch managed to type:
> > On 8/17/2005, Alpha managed to type:
> >> Now, tell me that sub-micron resolution is not very precise. What a
> >> maroon.
> >>
> >> http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdintro/dvd_sp...
> >
> > I have read descriptions of CD technology which indicate that the submicron
> > accuracy is achieved by small adjustments using voice-coil actuators driven
> > by optical feedback. This occurs along and across the tracks and also in
> > the
> > vertical (focus) direction, and the submicron accuracy comes from these
> > adjustments.
> >
> > The same feedback signals are used to keep the coarser motors (including
> > the
> > rotation motor) in a more-or-less accurate average position, but the voice
> > coils make up for the inaccuracies and the lag times.
> >
> > I have no reason to think that DVD drives work any differently.
> >
> > HTH,
> > Gino
>
> I just read Richard Crowley's post below in the thread on the same
> subject, and I yield to his greater knowledge.
>
> Thanks, Richard. I should have read more before adding my 2¢!
>
> Gino

I'll also bow to Richard's superior knowledge.

I haven't had a client involved in gear manufacturer for more than 8
years - a LIFETIME in EE and circuit design terms.

But I still think it's nuts to expect an electronic device in a class
that regularly retails for $49.95 to function for more than a year or so
with any degree of consistency.

This stuff is designed to be mass produced as cheaply as possible. NOT
to last as long as a customer would prefer.

And I can tell you I've had NUMEROUS personal experiences where I've
burned discs in DVD-R, and/or DVD+R or one of the RW variants - that
failed to play on expensive machines that were a year or two old, and
played like a dream on a cheap machine picked up at Costco that day.

I'm sure its partly due to more modern firmware in recent machines.

But it's also why I've built DVD burner replacement every 6-12 month
into my business plan.

It seems to just make sense.

FWIW
Anonymous
August 20, 2005 1:06:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"William Davis" wrote ...
> I haven't had a client involved in gear manufacturer for more than 8
> years - a LIFETIME in EE and circuit design terms.
>
> But I still think it's nuts to expect an electronic device in a class
> that regularly retails for $49.95 to function for more than a year or
> so
> with any degree of consistency.
>
> This stuff is designed to be mass produced as cheaply as possible. NOT
> to last as long as a customer would prefer.

Whether they like it or not, making the final adjustments
with electronic servos and voice-coil technology allows
the equipment to live longer than if they tried to do it with
motors and gears (fewer moving parts, etc.)
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:16:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

They are NOT submicron steppers.
"Alpha" <logos1@trip.net> wrote in message
news:11g81trfofdst86@corp.supernews.com...
> Now, tell me that sub-micron resolution is not very precise. What a
maroon.
>
> http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdintro/dvd_sp...
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:16:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Jona Vark" <noemail@all.com> wrote in message
news:D LnOe.89$A%1.78@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> They are NOT submicron steppers.

I never said they were.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:27:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <rcrowley@xpr7t.net> wrote in message
news:11g84o6m4u27e27@corp.supernews.com...

>
> There are no stepping motors in modern CD or DVD
> players/recorders/computer drives.


A bit broad. There are a good number of peripheral devices which still use
stepper motors. A simple Google Search will yield hundreds of current
devices using steppers.
the steppers themselves are fairly low resoution with microstep drives
controlling them. Pretty much the same tech I used to use on motion control
and optical printer rigs . just smaller and lower power.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:27:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Jona Vark" wrote ...
>
> "Richard Crowley" wrote ...
>> There are no stepping motors in modern CD or DVD
>> players/recorders/computer drives.
>
> A bit broad. There are a good number of peripheral devices which still use
> stepper motors. A simple Google Search will yield hundreds of current
> devices using steppers.

Yes, broadly speaking there ARE "a good number of peripheral
devices which still use stepper motors". However, note that my
statement was narowly restricted to CD and DVD devices.

Inkjet printers and floppy drives are notable for still using
stepping motors. However you are unlikely to find steppers
in any hard drives made in the last many years.
Anonymous
August 22, 2005 9:46:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Alpha" <logos1@trip.net> wrote in message
news:11g81onl968na17@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Oh no? You do not know anything about it, so stop making up idiocy.
>
>

That's brilliant. Not sure which part of my statements you think are idiocy
but you're welcome to elaborate if you can.
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 8:42:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

Maybe it was one of those voice coils doing a ventriloquist act . . .



> > They are NOT submicron steppers.
>
> I never said they were.
>
>
>
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 9:19:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Richard Crowley" <richard.7.crowley@intel.com> wrote in message
news:D edmok$8j1$1@news01.intel.com...
> "Jona Vark" wrote ...
> >
> > "Richard Crowley" wrote ...
> >> There are no stepping motors in modern CD or DVD
> >> players/recorders/computer drives.
> >
> > A bit broad. There are a good number of peripheral devices which still
use
> > stepper motors. A simple Google Search will yield hundreds of current
> > devices using steppers.
>
> Yes, broadly speaking there ARE "a good number of peripheral
> devices which still use stepper motors". However, note that my
> statement was narowly restricted to CD and DVD devices.

That was my point. A number of DVD devices showed up with specific mention
of the steppers.
Anonymous
August 23, 2005 9:19:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.dvd.software,rec.video.dvd.tech,rec.video.production,rec.video.desktop,rec.video.dvd.software (More info?)

"Alpha" <logos1@trip.net> wrote in message
news:11gkorn7uvfju91@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Jona Vark" <noemail@all.com> wrote in message
> news:D LnOe.89$A%1.78@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> > They are NOT submicron steppers.
>
> I never said they were.


Ok.. so you lashed out at me when I said the steppers are not high
resolution devices. It is the microstep controllers that do the fine work.
You may not have understood that and I suspect it is why you assumed what
you did.

>
>
>
!