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8X DVD Burner only reliable at 4X

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August 27, 2005 3:50:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I have been working on copying some video tapes to DVD using Nerovision
Express 3. I have 5 DVD players of different types in the house from a
portable player to an Xbox. I have a fairly new Samsung 8X DVD burner which
I have flashed with the latest firmware. I found by experimenting with
different DVD media that some media would not work in every player. Some
would spit the DVD back out at me while others would only play the menu but
lock up when trying to play the movie.

I did my research at http://www.digitalfaq.com and learned to check the
manufacturer ID of the DVD that I was burning. To make a long story short, I
found that regardless of the brand or manufacturer of the DVD that I was
using, only the 4X media worked in every player. I then tried using some of
the 8X media that I had problems with and burned them at 4X. All of them
worked perfectly in every player. It has not seemed to matter whether I am
using DVD-R or DVD+R as I have had equally good and bad results with both. I
have been using good quality media such as TYG01 and TYG02. One of my recent
tests was an 8X Ritek R03 DVD+R from Maxell. I originally thought all the
problems were due to the manufacturer but realized that in this particular
situation, it was only a matter of the burn speed.

Nero does not report any problems with any of the burns.

I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
1. Has anyone else experienced this?
2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to get
reliable burns?
4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that was
burned at a higher speed?



Thanks,

Rod

More about : dvd burner reliable

August 27, 2005 9:12:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:_hSPe.2267$UI.768@okepread05...
>I have been working on copying some video tapes to DVD using Nerovision
>Express 3. I have 5 DVD players of different types in the house from a
>portable player to an Xbox. I have a fairly new Samsung 8X DVD burner which
>I have flashed with the latest firmware. I found by experimenting with
>different DVD media that some media would not work in every player. Some
>would spit the DVD back out at me while others would only play the menu but
>lock up when trying to play the movie.
>
> I did my research at http://www.digitalfaq.com and learned to check the
> manufacturer ID of the DVD that I was burning. To make a long story short,
> I found that regardless of the brand or manufacturer of the DVD that I was
> using, only the 4X media worked in every player. I then tried using some
> of the 8X media that I had problems with and burned them at 4X. All of
> them worked perfectly in every player. It has not seemed to matter whether
> I am using DVD-R or DVD+R as I have had equally good and bad results with
> both. I have been using good quality media such as TYG01 and TYG02. One of
> my recent tests was an 8X Ritek R03 DVD+R from Maxell. I originally
> thought all the problems were due to the manufacturer but realized that in
> this particular situation, it was only a matter of the burn speed.
>
> Nero does not report any problems with any of the burns.
>
> I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
> 1. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
> 3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to
> get reliable burns?
> 4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that
> was burned at a higher speed?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rod
>
Rod,
Not sure on all those, but no. 3, it will drop to 4x if it's firmware tells
it to.
Check online to see if you have the latest firmware for your burner, maybe
you can patch it with
firmware that allows faster burning, but if the dvd's dye isn't fast
reacting enough you will get burn errors.
Try a 16x DVD, and see if it burns at 8x ok, as a test.

AnthonyR.
Anonymous
August 27, 2005 8:53:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in
news:_hSPe.2267$UI.768@okepread05:

(snip.)
> I did my research at http://www.digitalfaq.com and learned to check
> the manufacturer ID of the DVD that I was burning. To make a long
> story short, I found that regardless of the brand or manufacturer of
> the DVD that I was using, only the 4X media worked in every player. I
(snip.)

1 & 2. I haven't experienced it myself, but the most common cause of
something like this is that the drive is running in PIO mode when it
should be on Ultra DMA. (i.e. a misconfiguration as opposed to a genuine
problem with the burner.)

For more information on checking/enabling DMA mode, feel free to read
this helpful article:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=101616

3. When running on PIO mode, you definitely have to use a lower burn
speed for reliability. In most cases, there is no advantage to using PIO.
But the system BIOS or windows will choose it by default for
compatibility purposes. In some cases, burners will look at the MID code
and if they think the media is inferior, they will drop to a lower speed.
Plextor drives in particular will do this on the fly. But with TY media
and such, they will normally burn at higher than rated speeds with no
problems.

4. Only for low quality media.

Etc: As to the problem of DVDR media not playing in every player, you
should know that some standalone DVD players simply do not support all
types of recordable media and there is nothing you can do about it. In
some cases you can improve the compatibility using various means, but you
will never burn a disc that is guaranteed to play in all players.
Related resources
August 27, 2005 11:49:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Jucius,

Thanks for the tips. I did check my drives and am already running in DMA
mode so I guess that was not the problem. I am coming to realize through
experience and some other replies to this post that burning at a slower
speed is probably the key to better compatability. I know that I am not
going to make DVD's that are compatible with every player, but I thought a
good start would be to make them compatable with the 5 that I had in my
house.

Rod

"Jucius Maximus" <juicy.anti@spam.graffiti.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96BFB665BEF98juicyantispamgraffit@216.196.97.142...
> "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in
> news:_hSPe.2267$UI.768@okepread05:
>
> (snip.)
>> I did my research at http://www.digitalfaq.com and learned to check
>> the manufacturer ID of the DVD that I was burning. To make a long
>> story short, I found that regardless of the brand or manufacturer of
>> the DVD that I was using, only the 4X media worked in every player. I
> (snip.)
>
> 1 & 2. I haven't experienced it myself, but the most common cause of
> something like this is that the drive is running in PIO mode when it
> should be on Ultra DMA. (i.e. a misconfiguration as opposed to a genuine
> problem with the burner.)
>
> For more information on checking/enabling DMA mode, feel free to read
> this helpful article:
>
> http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=101616
>
> 3. When running on PIO mode, you definitely have to use a lower burn
> speed for reliability. In most cases, there is no advantage to using PIO.
> But the system BIOS or windows will choose it by default for
> compatibility purposes. In some cases, burners will look at the MID code
> and if they think the media is inferior, they will drop to a lower speed.
> Plextor drives in particular will do this on the fly. But with TY media
> and such, they will normally burn at higher than rated speeds with no
> problems.
>
> 4. Only for low quality media.
>
> Etc: As to the problem of DVDR media not playing in every player, you
> should know that some standalone DVD players simply do not support all
> types of recordable media and there is nothing you can do about it. In
> some cases you can improve the compatibility using various means, but you
> will never burn a disc that is guaranteed to play in all players.
>
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 12:12:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Hello, Rod,
I would say your experience is quite well known.
Guys dealing with DVD burnings for the long time period would never use
other speed then 4x even their burner supports let us say 100x speed.
It is not a question of "compatibility" only - it has to do with record
reliability also.
Note: similar situation can be observed when burning audio CDs - burning
speed 4x is still highly recommended.

Higher burning speed would not be a problem when CD/DVD is intended to
use in a PC CD/DVD drive.

So if I were you I would not waste time with any investigation. Take it
as it is and go ;-)
Roman


Rod wrote:
> I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
> 1. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
> 3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to get
> reliable burns?
> 4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that was
> burned at a higher speed?
August 28, 2005 12:12:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Roman,

Thanks. I appreciate the advice. I have had also had some trouble in the
past with some MP3 CD's as well. I may go back and reburn them at a slower
speed.

Rod

"Roman Svihorik" <gemini@post.mbc.sk> wrote in message
news:D eqael$b6p$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
> Hello, Rod,
> I would say your experience is quite well known.
> Guys dealing with DVD burnings for the long time period would never use
> other speed then 4x even their burner supports let us say 100x speed.
> It is not a question of "compatibility" only - it has to do with record
> reliability also.
> Note: similar situation can be observed when burning audio CDs - burning
> speed 4x is still highly recommended.
>
> Higher burning speed would not be a problem when CD/DVD is intended to use
> in a PC CD/DVD drive.
>
> So if I were you I would not waste time with any investigation. Take it as
> it is and go ;-)
> Roman
>
>
> Rod wrote:
>> I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
>> 1. Has anyone else experienced this?
>> 2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
>> 3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to
>> get reliable burns?
>> 4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that
>> was burned at a higher speed?
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 1:01:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Strange, I have always burned my 8X DVDRs at 8X speed with never a problem.
I have an 8X TY DVD+R burning at 8X as I type this message.

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in
news:iN7Qe.2291$UI.280@okepread05:

> Thanks for the tips. I did check my drives and am already running in
> DMA mode so I guess that was not the problem. I am coming to realize
> through experience and some other replies to this post that burning at
> a slower speed is probably the key to better compatability. I know
> that I am not going to make DVD's that are compatible with every
> player, but I thought a good start would be to make them compatable
> with the 5 that I had in my house.
>
August 28, 2005 3:43:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I have one other thought on this subject. Does anyone know whether it is any
less reliable to burn CD's using a DVD burner than using a CD burner? The
reason that I ask is that I remember back in the days of 1.2M High density
5-1/4 floppy disks and 360K floppy disks that it was generally not a good
idea to format a 360K floppy in a high density drive because it would not
always be compatible with standard 360K drives. Does the same sort of
concept apply in the DVD / CD world?

Rod


"Roman Svihorik" <gemini@post.mbc.sk> wrote in message
news:D eqael$b6p$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
> Hello, Rod,
> I would say your experience is quite well known.
> Guys dealing with DVD burnings for the long time period would never use
> other speed then 4x even their burner supports let us say 100x speed.
> It is not a question of "compatibility" only - it has to do with record
> reliability also.
> Note: similar situation can be observed when burning audio CDs - burning
> speed 4x is still highly recommended.
>
> Higher burning speed would not be a problem when CD/DVD is intended to use
> in a PC CD/DVD drive.
>
> So if I were you I would not waste time with any investigation. Take it as
> it is and go ;-)
> Roman
>
>
> Rod wrote:
>> I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
>> 1. Has anyone else experienced this?
>> 2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
>> 3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to
>> get reliable burns?
>> 4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that
>> was burned at a higher speed?
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 7:14:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:49:47 -0500, "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net>
wrote:

>Jucius,
>
>Thanks for the tips. I did check my drives and am already running in DMA
>mode so I guess that was not the problem. I am coming to realize through
>experience and some other replies to this post that burning at a slower
>speed is probably the key to better compatability. I know that I am not
>going to make DVD's that are compatible with every player, but I thought a
>good start would be to make them compatable with the 5 that I had in my
>house.
>
>Rod

You can do a surface scan of your DVD with
Nero CD-DVD Speed V4.01 and find what
methods give the best quality. If its a used DVDRW,
I always get higher quality numbers if I do a full erase
first.
http://www.cdspeed2000.com/
August 28, 2005 7:21:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Jucius Maximus" <juicy.anti@spam.graffiti.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96BFE0644A599juicyantispamgraffit@216.196.97.142...
> Strange, I have always burned my 8X DVDRs at 8X speed with never a
> problem.
> I have an 8X TY DVD+R burning at 8X as I type this message.
>
> "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in
> news:iN7Qe.2291$UI.280@okepread05:
>
>> Thanks for the tips. I did check my drives and am already running in
>> DMA mode so I guess that was not the problem. I am coming to realize
>> through experience and some other replies to this post that burning at
>> a slower speed is probably the key to better compatability. I know
>> that I am not going to make DVD's that are compatible with every
>> player, but I thought a good start would be to make them compatable
>> with the 5 that I had in my house.
>>

Same for me here, but I think newer DVD burners help, I had more burn errors
with older burners.
Now I use an NEC 16x, with modified firmware, and get perfect burns at full
16x using 8x Taiyo Yuden DVD's.
However I had a cheap batch of Prodisc 8x, and would get lots of errors,
even at slow speeds, but many more
above 1x, so dvd media has a lot to do with it.
Also I've yet to have a DVD burned at 16x which passed the Nero Data
Verification, and burned with no errors have any
playback issues on any of my standalone DVD players at all.
In fact, I really noticed marked improvement on playback performance on
external DVD players using the Yuden0002 or whatever the code is,
DVD's. I can easily scan at full 32x, fast forward and reverse and change
chapters more quickly, no more digital breakup, here and there or have the
movie stall, for a second like older 4x media DVD Discs and older burner
would make.
So get latest burner and good disks, hook up in UDMA mode as suggested by
Jucius and you'll be all set!


Good Luck,
AnthonyR.
August 28, 2005 7:21:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Anthony,

Can you give me some more information about your NEC 16X DVD burner like the
model number and where you bought it? Also, what do you mean by "modified
firmware"? Are you just talking about downloading the latest approved
firmware for that drive or something different?

Thanks,

Rod

"AnthonyR" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:D 4aQe.3753$x43.1605027@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Jucius Maximus" <juicy.anti@spam.graffiti.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96BFE0644A599juicyantispamgraffit@216.196.97.142...
>> Strange, I have always burned my 8X DVDRs at 8X speed with never a
>> problem.
>> I have an 8X TY DVD+R burning at 8X as I type this message.
>>
>> "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in
>> news:iN7Qe.2291$UI.280@okepread05:
>>
>>> Thanks for the tips. I did check my drives and am already running in
>>> DMA mode so I guess that was not the problem. I am coming to realize
>>> through experience and some other replies to this post that burning at
>>> a slower speed is probably the key to better compatability. I know
>>> that I am not going to make DVD's that are compatible with every
>>> player, but I thought a good start would be to make them compatable
>>> with the 5 that I had in my house.
>>>
>
> Same for me here, but I think newer DVD burners help, I had more burn
> errors with older burners.
> Now I use an NEC 16x, with modified firmware, and get perfect burns at
> full 16x using 8x Taiyo Yuden DVD's.
> However I had a cheap batch of Prodisc 8x, and would get lots of errors,
> even at slow speeds, but many more
> above 1x, so dvd media has a lot to do with it.
> Also I've yet to have a DVD burned at 16x which passed the Nero Data
> Verification, and burned with no errors have any
> playback issues on any of my standalone DVD players at all.
> In fact, I really noticed marked improvement on playback performance on
> external DVD players using the Yuden0002 or whatever the code is,
> DVD's. I can easily scan at full 32x, fast forward and reverse and change
> chapters more quickly, no more digital breakup, here and there or have the
> movie stall, for a second like older 4x media DVD Discs and older burner
> would make.
> So get latest burner and good disks, hook up in UDMA mode as suggested by
> Jucius and you'll be all set!
>
>
> Good Luck,
> AnthonyR.
>
>
August 28, 2005 8:42:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p BaQe.2296$UI.739@okepread05...
> Anthony,
>
> Can you give me some more information about your NEC 16X DVD burner like
> the model number and where you bought it? Also, what do you mean by
> "modified firmware"? Are you just talking about downloading the latest
> approved firmware for that drive or something different?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rod
>
Hi Rod, Sure, I believe it's an NEC3500? forget the exact ending AG maybe,
got it for around $80
at www.newegg.com ahile ago, and updated it's firware to an unofficial
version that removes restrictions
such as rip speed, so no longer limited to 2x and also allowing the faster
burn rates on older model DVD media
that actual can handle the faster burn but is disabled by firmware codes
because of official marketing etc..
You pay more for 16x dvd's than 8x, but a lot of 8x dvd's burn great at 16x
anyway, no real quality change
they use the same dye and material, just different marketing, at least I
found that to be true for myself with the Taiyo Yuden DVD
disks, here's a link to the discs:
http://www.supermediastore.com/taiyo-yuden-8x-dvd-plus-...

if you don't care for inkjet printable (these are nice, full face printing
with epson R200 printer) then look at the
silver face ones, same quality and price. There are also cheaper 4x Taiyo
Yuden but I wouldn't bother with them
although they might burn well at 8x or more too, never tried them. But Japan
made DVD's are great quality in general!

The DVD burner I have can't be found now but newer better models are even
cheaper, make me want to upgrade, lol
but why? mine works so well, why mess with a good thing, right?
http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/Category.asp?Category...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1682...

how can you go wrong with $38 plus $4 shipping, no tax, lol

then google for modified firmware, upgrade and burn at 16x with 8x dvd's
simple.
hope that helps!
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=87413

cd freaks has links for different models and posts for help, Good Luck,
enjoy burning, I
transfer home movies for family when they visit in minutes from PC at 16x,
it's great, print a face and
they are amazed at the gift I just made them.

AnthonyR.
August 28, 2005 8:50:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:p BaQe.2296$UI.739@okepread05...
> Anthony,
>
> Can you give me some more information about your NEC 16X DVD burner like
> the model number and where you bought it? Also, what do you mean by
> "modified firmware"? Are you just talking about downloading the latest
> approved firmware for that drive or something different?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rod

also look at for mod speed firmware:

http://tdb.rpc1.org/index.htm
Anonymous
August 28, 2005 2:40:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:43:24 -0500, "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote:

>less reliable to burn CD's using a DVD burner than using a CD burner? The
>reason that I ask is that I remember back in the days of 1.2M High density

Rod, that was a problem with differences in head-alignment, which could
make those floppies not readeable.
Afaik in CD/DVD-burner's firmware are specific settings for different type
of media to burn them as good as possible. I reckon if you would put in a
brand for which the drive doesn't have a setting, it will pick a default
one, and that default one, might not be "enough" to have a perfect burn at
maximum speed.
It is just best to find the brand which works best for your burner. A bit
of Googling around, will lead you to lists of users who have tried this
already, otherwise you can be the guinea-pig yourself :) 

cheers

-martin-
--

"Beer is life!"
Anonymous
August 29, 2005 3:17:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I have been using the Plextor PX716UF with TY 16X media with absolutely no
problems and have yet to have a player rejection.

"JimK" <JimK@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sda2h1h0eehqqgfte7n0htijqnfc9vaccl@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:49:47 -0500, "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Jucius,
>>
>>Thanks for the tips. I did check my drives and am already running in DMA
>>mode so I guess that was not the problem. I am coming to realize through
>>experience and some other replies to this post that burning at a slower
>>speed is probably the key to better compatability. I know that I am not
>>going to make DVD's that are compatible with every player, but I thought a
>>good start would be to make them compatable with the 5 that I had in my
>>house.
>>
>>Rod
>
> You can do a surface scan of your DVD with
> Nero CD-DVD Speed V4.01 and find what
> methods give the best quality. If its a used DVDRW,
> I always get higher quality numbers if I do a full erase
> first.
> http://www.cdspeed2000.com/
August 30, 2005 5:06:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:8%bQe.2302$UI.819@okepread05...
> Anthony,
>
> Thanks for the info. I may try one. I've bought a lot from Newegg and have
> been happy with them. That is where I got the drive I have now. Also, I
> did purchase the Tayo Yuden 8X DVD-R silver faced DVDs from
> http://www.supermediastore.com last week. They are some that I have had
> trouble with burning at 8X in my drive. They work fine at 4X.
>
> Rod
>
>

Rod,
I see now, maybe the silver faced taiyo Yuden 8x aren't as good as the white
faced 8x,
I never tried them. But I would suggest first buy a few real 16x dvd's and
see if you get errors
recording at 8x or 16x, if the media is good and no other IDE problems as
suggested, it
should burn fine.
The shiny ones might have been older (slower) die type used to make them.
Only thing I can think of.
:) 

AnthonyR.
August 30, 2005 10:18:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Thanks for the info. I'm about to order some more DVD's. I'll probably try
the ones that you are talking about. Where did you find information about
the silver faced DVD's?

Rod

"AnthonyR" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wiOQe.21514$%w.15773@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:8%bQe.2302$UI.819@okepread05...
>> Anthony,
>>
>> Thanks for the info. I may try one. I've bought a lot from Newegg and
>> have been happy with them. That is where I got the drive I have now.
>> Also, I did purchase the Tayo Yuden 8X DVD-R silver faced DVDs from
>> http://www.supermediastore.com last week. They are some that I have had
>> trouble with burning at 8X in my drive. They work fine at 4X.
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>
>
> Rod,
> I see now, maybe the silver faced taiyo Yuden 8x aren't as good as the
> white faced 8x,
> I never tried them. But I would suggest first buy a few real 16x dvd's and
> see if you get errors
> recording at 8x or 16x, if the media is good and no other IDE problems as
> suggested, it
> should burn fine.
> The shiny ones might have been older (slower) die type used to make them.
> Only thing I can think of.
> :) 
>
> AnthonyR.
>
August 30, 2005 6:03:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I found a review on my Samsung TS-H552B DVD burner at
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/163 . I should have looked this up a long
time ago. I think this explains a lot of my compatability problems including
a lot of other factors I have learned over the last few days.

Rod



"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:_hSPe.2267$UI.768@okepread05...
>I have been working on copying some video tapes to DVD using Nerovision
>Express 3. I have 5 DVD players of different types in the house from a
>portable player to an Xbox. I have a fairly new Samsung 8X DVD burner which
>I have flashed with the latest firmware. I found by experimenting with
>different DVD media that some media would not work in every player. Some
>would spit the DVD back out at me while others would only play the menu but
>lock up when trying to play the movie.
>
> I did my research at http://www.digitalfaq.com and learned to check the
> manufacturer ID of the DVD that I was burning. To make a long story short,
> I found that regardless of the brand or manufacturer of the DVD that I was
> using, only the 4X media worked in every player. I then tried using some
> of the 8X media that I had problems with and burned them at 4X. All of
> them worked perfectly in every player. It has not seemed to matter whether
> I am using DVD-R or DVD+R as I have had equally good and bad results with
> both. I have been using good quality media such as TYG01 and TYG02. One of
> my recent tests was an 8X Ritek R03 DVD+R from Maxell. I originally
> thought all the problems were due to the manufacturer but realized that in
> this particular situation, it was only a matter of the burn speed.
>
> Nero does not report any problems with any of the burns.
>
> I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
> 1. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
> 3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to
> get reliable burns?
> 4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that
> was burned at a higher speed?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rod
>
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 8:19:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"AnthonyR" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in
news:XgbQe.3757$x43.1609221@twister.nyc.rr.com:

> "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:p BaQe.2296$UI.739@okepread05...
>> Anthony,
>>
>> Can you give me some more information about your NEC 16X DVD burner
>> like the model number and where you bought it? Also, what do you mean
(snip.)

> Hi Rod, Sure, I believe it's an NEC3500? forget the exact ending AG
> maybe,
> got it for around $80

This is also one of my two DVD burners. Though for +R discs I use a BENQ
DW-1620.

Both are a litte old now, but still quite reliable and useful for my
purposes.
August 30, 2005 8:52:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:qeXQe.5487$UI.1550@okepread05...
> Thanks for the info. I'm about to order some more DVD's. I'll probably try
> the ones that you are talking about. Where did you find information about
> the silver faced DVD's?
>
> Rod
>
Where? Hmm, I might have read something on some forum somewhere, don't
remember, but I always see
tons of shiny top Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd's being sold, so maybe they used same
batch for some 8x dvd's?
It's possible, the could easily use the 8x formulation for 16x.

Sort of like videotape, awhile back, I had read about how they make huge
drum type rolls of it and slice it up for packaging and
sometimes it's more economical to package up different quality levels from
the same roll in manufacturing, so a cheaper tape
might have same material as the higher prised one. It all depended what
would cost the company less, making seperate batches of different
formulations or just labelling same formulation with different labels, it
makes senses no?
But it's not always the case, just sometimes.

AnthonyR.
Anonymous
August 30, 2005 10:14:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"AnthonyR" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:U80Re.21564$%w.12110@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:qeXQe.5487$UI.1550@okepread05...
>> Thanks for the info. I'm about to order some more DVD's. I'll probably
>> try the ones that you are talking about. Where did you find information
>> about the silver faced DVD's?
>>
>> Rod
>>
> Where? Hmm, I might have read something on some forum somewhere, don't
> remember, but I always see
> tons of shiny top Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd's being sold, so maybe they used same
> batch for some 8x dvd's?
> It's possible, the could easily use the 8x formulation for 16x.
>
> Sort of like videotape, awhile back, I had read about how they make huge
> drum type rolls of it and slice it up for packaging and
> sometimes it's more economical to package up different quality levels from
> the same roll in manufacturing, so a cheaper tape
> might have same material as the higher prised one. It all depended what
> would cost the company less, making seperate batches of different
> formulations or just labelling same formulation with different labels, it
> makes senses no?
> But it's not always the case, just sometimes.
>
IIRC they used to take the higher quality tape from the center of the roll,
and use the outer edges for the "bargain" tape.

David
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 1:54:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

My experience on this matter : I've authored or overseen the authoring of
several hundred discs, and I've run a small disc copy operation - - 50,000
or so burned discs over the past 4 years.

My advice : You can do lots of research, and buy the best burners and the
best media. But in the end, over the long haul, you'll be back to 4x if
you're trying to get maximum compatibility. In our operation, if it's an
important master, we burn at 2x. This is doubly important if you're doing
high bit-rate encoding, as the data is just so dense.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the folks who are getting "perfect 16x
burns every time" are either not exposing their end product to wide variety
of playback units, or just plain haven't done enough of them.


Steve Guidry
Video Works, Inc.
Live events for TV and Video
www.videoworksinc.com
800.844.4404



"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:_hSPe.2267$UI.768@okepread05...
> I have been working on copying some video tapes to DVD using Nerovision
> Express 3. I have 5 DVD players of different types in the house from a
> portable player to an Xbox. I have a fairly new Samsung 8X DVD burner
which
> I have flashed with the latest firmware. I found by experimenting with
> different DVD media that some media would not work in every player. Some
> would spit the DVD back out at me while others would only play the menu
but
> lock up when trying to play the movie.
>
> I did my research at http://www.digitalfaq.com and learned to check the
> manufacturer ID of the DVD that I was burning. To make a long story short,
I
> found that regardless of the brand or manufacturer of the DVD that I was
> using, only the 4X media worked in every player. I then tried using some
of
> the 8X media that I had problems with and burned them at 4X. All of them
> worked perfectly in every player. It has not seemed to matter whether I am
> using DVD-R or DVD+R as I have had equally good and bad results with both.
I
> have been using good quality media such as TYG01 and TYG02. One of my
recent
> tests was an 8X Ritek R03 DVD+R from Maxell. I originally thought all the
> problems were due to the manufacturer but realized that in this particular
> situation, it was only a matter of the burn speed.
>
> Nero does not report any problems with any of the burns.
>
> I have some questions for anyone who might have some insight on this.
> 1. Has anyone else experienced this?
> 2. Does this sound like a problem with my DVD burner?
> 3. Is it normal for an 8X DVD burner to have to drop back to 4X speed to
get
> reliable burns?
> 4. Is it normal for some DVD equipment to not be able to read media that
was
> burned at a higher speed?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rod
>
>
August 31, 2005 9:20:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:EA4Re.4750$FW1.85@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> My experience on this matter : I've authored or overseen the authoring of
> several hundred discs, and I've run a small disc copy operation - - 50,000
> or so burned discs over the past 4 years.
>
> My advice : You can do lots of research, and buy the best burners and the
> best media. But in the end, over the long haul, you'll be back to 4x if
> you're trying to get maximum compatibility. In our operation, if it's an
> important master, we burn at 2x. This is doubly important if you're doing
> high bit-rate encoding, as the data is just so dense.
>
> I could be wrong, but I suspect that the folks who are getting "perfect
> 16x
> burns every time" are either not exposing their end product to wide
> variety
> of playback units, or just plain haven't done enough of them.
>
>
> Steve Guidry
> Video Works, Inc.
> Live events for TV and Video
> www.videoworksinc.com
> 800.844.4404
>
>
> Steve,
Thanks for that, interesting point of view coming from someone with so much
experience.
I technically can't understand the difference between a dvd burned at 16x
with no burn errors
and which passes disc error rates scans with flying colors and one burned at
lower speeds?

I do think you need to match the burning speed with the sweet spot of the
dye used, to get the most
error free burns. If the dye is reacting to the laser properly (matched
well) then you get good reaction together.
I have read on a post somewhere were using too slow a burn speed on dvd's
designed for high speed burning was yielding higher
than normal error rates also, so i think the key is to test well and find
the sweet spot that works for media used.

I'm not sure about what you said about higher bite rates being more densely
packed?
It makes sense if you have a higher bite rate, you will obviously fill the
entire disc, and that in
itself causes lots of problems as the outer edge is harder to read by the
player.
Also DVD's authored with high bit-rates run into more compatibility errors
with dvd players in general
which aren't able to read and process at high bite rates (even if within the
specs of dvd).
Lots of dvd players are older 1x readers and can't handle reading high bit
rates, I would assume.

I also want to ask, do you verify the data directly after the dvd has been
burned? I know this slows things down somewhat
since it has to be read and then compared to what was suppose to be written,
but i find this step is worth it in weeding out
errors. The dvd with 1 or more such errors seems to play fine most of the
time but eventually has a glitch that can freeze
on some machines or cause it to stop when being read at fast forward etc.
With older media, I found many such bad burns at that was at 4x back then,
now I hardly ever get one disc that hasn't passed
the verification process successfully. So the speed i gain at 16x helps make
up in the time it takes to verify the dvd after the burn. :) 
But the peace of mind I get when it passes is worth it to me.

I am concerned about greater compatibility, and will keep your advice in
mind, if I start getting complaints. Thanks!

AnthonyR.
August 31, 2005 9:23:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"AnthonyR" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:BFlRe.22126$%w.925@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:EA4Re.4750$FW1.85@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> My experience on this matter : I've authored or overseen the authoring
>> of
>> several hundred discs, and I've run a small disc copy operation - -
>> 50,000
>> or so burned discs over the past 4 years.
>>
>> My advice : You can do lots of research, and buy the best burners and
>> the
>> best media. But in the end, over the long haul, you'll be back to 4x if
>> you're trying to get maximum compatibility. In our operation, if it's an
>> important master, we burn at 2x. This is doubly important if you're
>> doing
>> high bit-rate encoding, as the data is just so dense.
>>
>> I could be wrong, but I suspect that the folks who are getting "perfect
>> 16x
>> burns every time" are either not exposing their end product to wide
>> variety
>> of playback units, or just plain haven't done enough of them.
>>
>>
>> Steve Guidry
>> Video Works, Inc.
>> Live events for TV and Video
>> www.videoworksinc.com
>> 800.844.4404
>>
>>
>> Steve,
> Thanks for that, interesting point of view coming from someone with so
> much experience.
> I technically can't understand the difference between a dvd burned at 16x
> with no burn errors
> and which passes disc error rates scans with flying colors and one burned
> at lower speeds?
>
> I do think you need to match the burning speed with the sweet spot of the
> dye used, to get the most
> error free burns. If the dye is reacting to the laser properly (matched
> well) then you get good reaction together.
> I have read on a post somewhere were using too slow a burn speed on dvd's
> designed for high speed burning was yielding higher
> than normal error rates also, so i think the key is to test well and find
> the sweet spot that works for media used.
>
> I'm not sure about what you said about higher bite rates being more
> densely packed?
> It makes sense if you have a higher bite rate, you will obviously fill the
> entire disc, and that in
> itself causes lots of problems as the outer edge is harder to read by the
> player.
> Also DVD's authored with high bit-rates run into more compatibility errors
> with dvd players in general
> which aren't able to read and process at high bite rates (even if within
> the specs of dvd).
> Lots of dvd players are older 1x readers and can't handle reading high bit
> rates, I would assume.
>
> I also want to ask, do you verify the data directly after the dvd has been
> burned? I know this slows things down somewhat
> since it has to be read and then compared to what was suppose to be
> written, but i find this step is worth it in weeding out
> errors. The dvd with 1 or more such errors seems to play fine most of the
> time but eventually has a glitch that can freeze
> on some machines or cause it to stop when being read at fast forward etc.
> With older media, I found many such bad burns at that was at 4x back then,
> now I hardly ever get one disc that hasn't passed
> the verification process successfully. So the speed i gain at 16x helps
> make up in the time it takes to verify the dvd after the burn. :) 
> But the peace of mind I get when it passes is worth it to me.
>
> I am concerned about greater compatibility, and will keep your advice in
> mind, if I start getting complaints. Thanks!
>
> AnthonyR.
>

I forgot to add, with DVD media...they didn't have this problem, cause they
could use same material in manufacturing process then
code it differently so firmware can only record at the specified rate
anyway, so they thought they found nirvana, lol
At least before modified firmware came to be that allows burning 16x on
DVD's sold as only 8X.
:) 

AnthonyR.
Anonymous
August 31, 2005 10:52:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I don't have the tech reasons for the questions you ask. I'm too much of a
practician to take the time to investigate. I just know that 2X and 4X
works, and over the long haul, higher doesn't work, IF your goal is for the
disks to be playable in a maximum number of customers' machines.

> I'm not sure about what you said about higher bite rates being more
densely
> packed?

OK, maybe I said that wrong. But you're right - - a higher bit-rate will
overload the input buffer on some cheaper and some older players. Usually
it just gets progressively worse, and then freezes.


> I also want to ask, do you verify the data directly after the dvd has been
> burned? I know this slows things down somewhat . . .

No, I just burn at 2X, and enjoy life. It's not scientific, but I don't
trust teh error-detection on a computer to find an error it made. If it's
important enough of a project, I do try it on each of a bank of players to
make sure it will work on a wide variety of players.

That's my process. And it works for me . . . and my customers.

Steve
September 1, 2005 8:05:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m%mRe.4645$_84.493@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>I don't have the tech reasons for the questions you ask. I'm too much of a
> practician to take the time to investigate. I just know that 2X and 4X
> works, and over the long haul, higher doesn't work, IF your goal is for
> the
> disks to be playable in a maximum number of customers' machines.
>
>> I'm not sure about what you said about higher bite rates being more
> densely
>> packed?
>
> OK, maybe I said that wrong. But you're right - - a higher bit-rate will
> overload the input buffer on some cheaper and some older players. Usually
> it just gets progressively worse, and then freezes.
>
>
>> I also want to ask, do you verify the data directly after the dvd has
>> been
>> burned? I know this slows things down somewhat . . .
>
> No, I just burn at 2X, and enjoy life. It's not scientific, but I don't
> trust teh error-detection on a computer to find an error it made. If it's
> important enough of a project, I do try it on each of a bank of players to
> make sure it will work on a wide variety of players.
>
> That's my process. And it works for me . . . and my customers.
>
> Steve
>
>

Hey Steve,
That stepping progression Z-CLV allows for faster than 16x and can cause
data problems when the motor changes speeds, CAV..Constant is better to use.
When I tested a batch of Verbatim dvd's recently I noticed they burned in
Z-CLV mode, and the graph during tests looks like steps.
I burn at 16x with the TY02 dvd's at CAV, so no interuptions at all to data
stream to mess up the dvd player, the tests show a curve of data increase.
I prefer than mode. Maybe the dvd's you tried at 8x and 16x used Z-CLV mode?
It's likely that or bad dye and burn errors.

When checking a few dvd burn quality test discs a while back I noticed
different brands burned in a different mode on the same machine.
I thought that odd, I thought it was machine dependant not disc, but it did.
Anyway, as the disc spins at a constant speed the inner part will part will
hold less info than the outer parts so burn speed needs to be slower
in the inner part and faster in the outerpart, that's if disc speed is
constant, that's one burn method, the other is when the disc speed itself
starts to speed
up while it gets further in the dvd, that's what you're talking about,
right?
Here is an explanation:
http://www.best16xburn.com/7.asp

As far as not trusting the computer to find errors? It's simple, the nero
burn program, has a file to burn in it's cache, it burns it to dvd. then
before ending the operation, it reads back off the dvd what it has burned
and compared the data to what it was suppose to burn, that's called
verification.
It has nothing to do with disc scans or material testing, that's another
thing.

Anyway I've had many bad verifications even while burning on 1x with a bad
batch of cheap dvd's. Maybe 1 out of 5 verified ok. The others would have 1
or 2 errors sometimes so many it was unplayable. Like I said, now even at
16x, if they verify ok, It's a 100% perfect copy of the original file, bit
for bit, exact!
The dvd burner is going to read the dvd at 1x (realtime) so burning it
slower and not verying is chancing it if you ever get a bad disc in there,
it will not play properly at the clients home or it might?
I never chance it anymore, I verify every dvd, burn at 16x and had not one
return (that was tried on a fairly new dvd player) Most people upgrade to
new players when they can't read dvd-r's their friends make, so it's no big
deal explaining to people their machine is 15 years old and can't read dvd-r
discs. :) 

So come on, move up to 16x man. Are you ready for dual layer, blu-ray, high
speed burning isn't always the problem you make it out to be. You just had
lots of bad discs in the begining that only burned well at 2x and 4x and it
taught you to be careful, but new dye formulations are used now and it
reacts at faster speed with no burn errors. :) 
And if you only burn in CAV mode and not Z-CLV then no possibility for speed
shift errors. :) 

Then once it's data, 1 or 0, on or off, the read speed can't tell what speed
it was burned at! If it burns sucessful, and 100% exact, that's it! As long
as the burn speed is constant you'll be ok to 16x but maybe not higher. By
the way, the Verbatim dvd's burned with Z-CLV for some strange reason on my
machine when I tried them, still no errors but you can even hear the
spinning up and down noise while burning that you don't with the Taiyo Yuden
which burn linear at up to 16x.

AnthonyR.
September 1, 2005 8:07:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Steve Guidry" <steveguidry@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m%mRe.4645$_84.493@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>I don't have the tech reasons for the questions you ask. I'm too much of a
> practician to take the time to investigate. I just know that 2X and 4X
> works, and over the long haul, higher doesn't work, IF your goal is for
> the
> disks to be playable in a maximum number of customers' machines.
>
>> I'm not sure about what you said about higher bite rates being more
> densely
>> packed?
>
> OK, maybe I said that wrong. But you're right - - a higher bit-rate will
> overload the input buffer on some cheaper and some older players. Usually
> it just gets progressively worse, and then freezes.
>
>
>> I also want to ask, do you verify the data directly after the dvd has
>> been
>> burned? I know this slows things down somewhat . . .
>
> No, I just burn at 2X, and enjoy life. It's not scientific, but I don't
> trust teh error-detection on a computer to find an error it made. If it's
> important enough of a project, I do try it on each of a bank of players to
> make sure it will work on a wide variety of players.
>
> That's my process. And it works for me . . . and my customers.
>
> Steve
>
>

Steve,
This like explains the two burning methods more. :) 
But if 4x is ok for you, don't let me sound like I have to convert you, we
all do what we feel is acceptable for ourselves.
We are all adults and make informed decisions :) 
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=118784

Thanks for reading,
AnthonyR.
September 8, 2005 2:55:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I am posting a followup to my original post regarding my problems with DVD
compatability.

1. I have found that varied brands and manufacturers of DVD media +-R/+-RW
burned at 8X in my 8X Samsung TS-H552B DVD burner do not function reliably
in many standalone DVD players. The same media burned at 4X worked in
everything that I tested
2. I purchased and installed a new 16X NEC ND-3540A burner and found that I
could burn the same 8X media mentioned above at 8X and it would work
reliably in nearly everything I tested. One example was an old Pioneer 5
disc DVD changer that would either lock up or spit out most DVD's burned at
8X on my old Samsung. When I burned an 8X Maxell DVD+R (Ritek) and a Tayo
Yuden 8X DVD-R on the NEC at 8X, the Pioneer DVD player played them without
flaw.

My unscientific conclusions:
1. I have learned from others who have posted replies to this thread that
for the sake of greater compatability with more players, it would probably
be better to burn DVD's at 4X if you are unsure of what type of DVD player
the media will be used.

2. The DVD burner itself can make a big difference. There may be some media
that works better in a particular burner and some burners although rated at
a particular speed, may not be able to reliably burn at that rated speed. I
am also wondering in general if burners, such as my new NEC that is rated at
16X can do a better job at burning a DVD at 1/2 it's rated speed (8X) than a
dvd burner that is rated at only 8X. If anyone knows about this, I would
appreciate a comment.

3. Finally, I am sold on Tayo Yuden manufactured DVD's. Although I did have
some trouble burning them at 8X in my Samsung DVD burner at 8X, they seem to
have been the most reliable of anything that I have burned. My limited
experience with them seems to match up with the media guide at
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm . I also noticed that the Tayo
Yuden 8X DVD-R that I purchased from http://www.supermediastore.com were
read by Nero as 12X DVD's on my NEC burner.

Rod
September 9, 2005 12:30:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@NOSPAMcox.net> wrote in message
news:T9ZTe.3451$O52.1361@fe06.lga...
>
> 3. Finally, I am sold on Tayo Yuden manufactured DVD's. Although I did
> have some trouble burning them at 8X in my Samsung DVD burner at 8X, they
> seem to have been the most reliable of anything that I have burned. My
> limited experience with them seems to match up with the media guide at
> http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm . I also noticed that the
> Tayo Yuden 8X DVD-R that I purchased from http://www.supermediastore.com
> were read by Nero as 12X DVD's on my NEC burner.
>
> Rod
>
>

Hey Rod,

Glad to hear you can burn 8x reliably now. :) 
And that the 8x show up as 12x, that's cool.
I'm not sure as I had said earlier if the same dye is used on the Taiyo
Yuden 8x silver face as the 8x white ink jet face,
but if so, then you will even be able to burn relaible up to 16x when and if
you update your burner firmware to a modified
version that allows for faster burn speeds, like a maddog version.
Either way, 8x is double the 4x you were getting before. :) 
Glad to hear it.

AnthonyR.
September 11, 2005 5:46:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

I bought some 16X Tayo Yuden white printable DVD-R and was able to burn them
at 16X in the NEC. It worked on every DVD player that I put it in. I guess
that the title of my original post should have been "8X Samsung TS-H552B DVD
burner only reliable at 4X" .

Rod
September 13, 2005 5:30:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Rod, that's exactly what happenned to me but I went from a memorex to Nec
and now burn perfect at 16x using 8x discs. :) 

Now, he's another puzzle for you, I have two computers and a Pioneer A06
burner in the second PC.
Sometimes i come across a dvd that either has a scratch or some other
problem that doesn't allow
it to be read or ripped correctly on my NEC but can play and rip perfectly
on the Pioneer.
But that doesn't prove the Pioneer is better cause just as many times, the
reverse is true. I have dvd's
that the Pioneer can't read well and I'm able to rip and make new copies
with the NEC.

So I got out of that to keep both and it increases my chances of being able
to read almost all dvd's using
the two machines, Must have to do with different lightwave freq of lasers or
something?
AnthonyR.


"Rod" <thelanNOSPAMman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:GV_Ue.16586$UI.5468@okepread05...
>I bought some 16X Tayo Yuden white printable DVD-R and was able to burn
>them at 16X in the NEC. It worked on every DVD player that I put it in. I
>guess that the title of my original post should have been "8X Samsung
>TS-H552B DVD burner only reliable at 4X" .
>
> Rod
>
!