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msi ti 4600 & asus p4c800e deluxe no powerup

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Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
April 8, 2004 12:41:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

hello,
in short: I have the above hardware and the motherboard refuses to
powerup (at all) with this video card in.

full story: I used this video card with an abit vp6 motherboard and it
worked great after sorting out the drivers issues. recently I decided
to upgrade to an asus p4c800e deluxe mobo.
the specs:
asus p4c800e deluxe, pentium 4 3.2ghz, kingston 1gb memory, video msi
geforce 4 ti 4600 vtd, toshiba dvd rom, sony dvd rw, ibm 20g hd, wd
120g hd, enermax 430 watt psu, hitachi 630 crt monitor, case and psu
fans are connected to the pins on the motherboard.

so now, let me try to explain what exactly happens. I also have a msi
geforce3 and an ati pci video cards that the system boots up with
fine. the geforce 4 works fine in the abit vp6 mobo but refuses to
work in asus p4c800edlx and asus p4b533.
I tried to trouble shoot before posting and I can't come to a
resolution. after reading the manuals, the 2nd asus mobo lights up a
red led on it, which, going with the manual, says that the card is
3.3v. so I figure that both of the asus mbs recognize this card as if
it was 3.3v. yet I know the geforce4 is a 1.5v, it's keyed for 1.5v
and it also works flawlessly in the abit vp6 mobo.
On the other hand the asus pc probe shows that the agp slot supports
3.3v. I don't have any other cards plugged in any of the pci slots.
I tried booting up with just the video card and it just refuses to
powerup. the p4c800edlx lights up a green led to show the atx+5v runs
through the mobo but when I press the power button nothing happens.
I wrote to supports@msi on 2apr2004-no response yet, I contacted asus
but they keep repeating exactly what I write to them, after 3 emails
with them they said: yes looks like it doesn't work.
I upgraded to the latest bioses and drivers, it looks that there has
got to be some kind hardware conflict which I don't understand
exactly. I bought this msi geforce4 card over a year ago and it cost
me $450 so I don't really feel like getting another video card.

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions as to what I should do.
thank you.
April 9, 2004 8:39:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <453d04da.0404080741.1d2bae0a@posting.google.com>,
dluxea@yahoo.com (dluxea) wrote:

> hello,
> in short: I have the above hardware and the motherboard refuses to
> powerup (at all) with this video card in.
>
> full story: I used this video card with an abit vp6 motherboard and it
> worked great after sorting out the drivers issues. recently I decided
> to upgrade to an asus p4c800e deluxe mobo.
> the specs:
> asus p4c800e deluxe, pentium 4 3.2ghz, kingston 1gb memory, video msi
> geforce 4 ti 4600 vtd, toshiba dvd rom, sony dvd rw, ibm 20g hd, wd
> 120g hd, enermax 430 watt psu, hitachi 630 crt monitor, case and psu
> fans are connected to the pins on the motherboard.
>
> so now, let me try to explain what exactly happens. I also have a msi
> geforce3 and an ati pci video cards that the system boots up with
> fine. the geforce 4 works fine in the abit vp6 mobo but refuses to
> work in asus p4c800edlx and asus p4b533.
> I tried to trouble shoot before posting and I can't come to a
> resolution. after reading the manuals, the 2nd asus mobo lights up a
> red led on it, which, going with the manual, says that the card is
> 3.3v. so I figure that both of the asus mbs recognize this card as if
> it was 3.3v. yet I know the geforce4 is a 1.5v, it's keyed for 1.5v
> and it also works flawlessly in the abit vp6 mobo.
> On the other hand the asus pc probe shows that the agp slot supports
> 3.3v. I don't have any other cards plugged in any of the pci slots.
> I tried booting up with just the video card and it just refuses to
> powerup. the p4c800edlx lights up a green led to show the atx+5v runs
> through the mobo but when I press the power button nothing happens.
> I wrote to supports@msi on 2apr2004-no response yet, I contacted asus
> but they keep repeating exactly what I write to them, after 3 emails
> with them they said: yes looks like it doesn't work.
> I upgraded to the latest bioses and drivers, it looks that there has
> got to be some kind hardware conflict which I don't understand
> exactly. I bought this msi geforce4 card over a year ago and it cost
> me $450 so I don't really feel like getting another video card.
>
> I would appreciate any comments or suggestions as to what I should do.
> thank you.

AFAIK, the Asus burnout protection circuit is connected to the
TYPEDET pin on the AGP connector. If TYPEDET says the card would
prefer 3.3V, then the red led lights up, and powerup is gated off.
I don't think anything else influences how this works.

Some manufacturers have made mistakes when building video cards.
The AGP standard clearly states, to make a logic 0 indication
on the video card, TYPEDET should be connected directly to ground.
Some manufacturers use a low value resistor to make the connection
instead (as the manufacturing test engineers prefer the use of
a resistor, as it eases testing the card at the factory).

If the motherboard injects too much current into this pin, in
an attempt to test whether the pin is logic 0 or logic 1, then
with the resistor in place, an indeterminate level can result.
Apparently, this is enough to trigger the burnout protection.

If the resistor has accidently been scraped off the board,
then the wrong level results. (I know about that, because
I've managed to rip two resistors off video cards while handling
them...)

If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure the
card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an
end-user procedure, and if your video card has a warranty, you
might try returning it, in the hope that a later version of the
card fixes the issue.

Sometimes, the reason for the malfunction, is a fault in the
burnout protection circuit on the motherboard. As you've reproduced
the problem on two motherboards, odds are the video card is at
fault, and not the motherboard circuit.

Ref: See page 41 of:
http://developer.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp...

The connector pinout is on page 50.

I first learned about this issue, with respect to a Matrox
card that used a resistor for the TYPEDET pin. On the poster's
motherboard, instead of AGP 1.5V, the video card managed to
convince the motherboard to provide around 2V, which is incorrect
and presumably due to not having a good short directly to
ground as instructed in the standard.

HTH,
Paul
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
April 9, 2004 5:22:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<nospam-0904040440270001@192.168.1.177>...
> In article <453d04da.0404080741.1d2bae0a@posting.google.com>,
> dluxea@yahoo.com (dluxea) wrote:
>
> > hello,
> > in short: I have the above hardware and the motherboard refuses to
> > powerup (at all) with this video card in.
> >
> > full story: I used this video card with an abit vp6 motherboard and it
> > worked great after sorting out the drivers issues. recently I decided
> > to upgrade to an asus p4c800e deluxe mobo.
> > the specs:
> > asus p4c800e deluxe, pentium 4 3.2ghz, kingston 1gb memory, video msi
> > geforce 4 ti 4600 vtd, toshiba dvd rom, sony dvd rw, ibm 20g hd, wd
> > 120g hd, enermax 430 watt psu, hitachi 630 crt monitor, case and psu
> > fans are connected to the pins on the motherboard.
> >
> > so now, let me try to explain what exactly happens. I also have a msi
> > geforce3 and an ati pci video cards that the system boots up with
> > fine. the geforce 4 works fine in the abit vp6 mobo but refuses to
> > work in asus p4c800edlx and asus p4b533.
> > I tried to trouble shoot before posting and I can't come to a
> > resolution. after reading the manuals, the 2nd asus mobo lights up a
> > red led on it, which, going with the manual, says that the card is
> > 3.3v. so I figure that both of the asus mbs recognize this card as if
> > it was 3.3v. yet I know the geforce4 is a 1.5v, it's keyed for 1.5v
> > and it also works flawlessly in the abit vp6 mobo.
> > On the other hand the asus pc probe shows that the agp slot supports
> > 3.3v. I don't have any other cards plugged in any of the pci slots.
> > I tried booting up with just the video card and it just refuses to
> > powerup. the p4c800edlx lights up a green led to show the atx+5v runs
> > through the mobo but when I press the power button nothing happens.
> > I wrote to supports@msi on 2apr2004-no response yet, I contacted asus
> > but they keep repeating exactly what I write to them, after 3 emails
> > with them they said: yes looks like it doesn't work.
> > I upgraded to the latest bioses and drivers, it looks that there has
> > got to be some kind hardware conflict which I don't understand
> > exactly. I bought this msi geforce4 card over a year ago and it cost
> > me $450 so I don't really feel like getting another video card.
> >
> > I would appreciate any comments or suggestions as to what I should do.
> > thank you.
>
> AFAIK, the Asus burnout protection circuit is connected to the
> TYPEDET pin on the AGP connector. If TYPEDET says the card would
> prefer 3.3V, then the red led lights up, and powerup is gated off.
> I don't think anything else influences how this works.
>
> Some manufacturers have made mistakes when building video cards.
> The AGP standard clearly states, to make a logic 0 indication
> on the video card, TYPEDET should be connected directly to ground.
> Some manufacturers use a low value resistor to make the connection
> instead (as the manufacturing test engineers prefer the use of
> a resistor, as it eases testing the card at the factory).
>
> If the motherboard injects too much current into this pin, in
> an attempt to test whether the pin is logic 0 or logic 1, then
> with the resistor in place, an indeterminate level can result.
> Apparently, this is enough to trigger the burnout protection.
>
> If the resistor has accidently been scraped off the board,
> then the wrong level results. (I know about that, because
> I've managed to rip two resistors off video cards while handling
> them...)
>
> If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
> is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
> piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure the
> card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an
> end-user procedure, and if your video card has a warranty, you
> might try returning it, in the hope that a later version of the
> card fixes the issue.
>
> Sometimes, the reason for the malfunction, is a fault in the
> burnout protection circuit on the motherboard. As you've reproduced
> the problem on two motherboards, odds are the video card is at
> fault, and not the motherboard circuit.
>
> Ref: See page 41 of:
> http://developer.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp...
>
> The connector pinout is on page 50.
>
> I first learned about this issue, with respect to a Matrox
> card that used a resistor for the TYPEDET pin. On the poster's
> motherboard, instead of AGP 1.5V, the video card managed to
> convince the motherboard to provide around 2V, which is incorrect
> and presumably due to not having a good short directly to
> ground as instructed in the standard.
>
> HTH,
> Paul

First of all, thank you so much for your insight. I didn't get a
resonable response from neither asus, msi or msi forum, which tells me
that the manufacturers don't really care about end users, just the companies
they sell their products in bulk to.
The card was not damaged in any way, scraped or anything like that, it's in
immaculate condition, yet refuses to work. The card is no longer under any
warranty so I could do anything to it. But I feel like I should take this
issue up with the maker, msi, who didn't respond to the email I sent for
over a week now. And the forum, independent of msi, didn't respond either.

So now, if msi refuses to work with me on the card:
Do you think they could fix such issues within asus mobo bios ?
or is there anything I could do by myself to the card to make it work ?

Again, thanx so much for your reply.
Related resources
April 10, 2004 4:04:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <453d04da.0404091222.50652e94@posting.google.com>,
dluxea@yahoo.com (dluxea) wrote:

> nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message
news:<nospam-0904040440270001@192.168.1.177>...
> > In article <453d04da.0404080741.1d2bae0a@posting.google.com>,
> > dluxea@yahoo.com (dluxea) wrote:
> >
> > > hello,
> > > in short: I have the above hardware and the motherboard refuses to
> > > powerup (at all) with this video card in.
> > >
> > > full story: I used this video card with an abit vp6 motherboard and it
> > > worked great after sorting out the drivers issues. recently I decided
> > > to upgrade to an asus p4c800e deluxe mobo.
> > > the specs:
> > > asus p4c800e deluxe, pentium 4 3.2ghz, kingston 1gb memory, video msi
> > > geforce 4 ti 4600 vtd, toshiba dvd rom, sony dvd rw, ibm 20g hd, wd
> > > 120g hd, enermax 430 watt psu, hitachi 630 crt monitor, case and psu
> > > fans are connected to the pins on the motherboard.
> > >
> > > so now, let me try to explain what exactly happens. I also have a msi
> > > geforce3 and an ati pci video cards that the system boots up with
> > > fine. the geforce 4 works fine in the abit vp6 mobo but refuses to
> > > work in asus p4c800edlx and asus p4b533.
> > > I tried to trouble shoot before posting and I can't come to a
> > > resolution. after reading the manuals, the 2nd asus mobo lights up a
> > > red led on it, which, going with the manual, says that the card is
> > > 3.3v. so I figure that both of the asus mbs recognize this card as if
> > > it was 3.3v. yet I know the geforce4 is a 1.5v, it's keyed for 1.5v
> > > and it also works flawlessly in the abit vp6 mobo.
> > > On the other hand the asus pc probe shows that the agp slot supports
> > > 3.3v. I don't have any other cards plugged in any of the pci slots.
> > > I tried booting up with just the video card and it just refuses to
> > > powerup. the p4c800edlx lights up a green led to show the atx+5v runs
> > > through the mobo but when I press the power button nothing happens.
> > > I wrote to supports@msi on 2apr2004-no response yet, I contacted asus
> > > but they keep repeating exactly what I write to them, after 3 emails
> > > with them they said: yes looks like it doesn't work.
> > > I upgraded to the latest bioses and drivers, it looks that there has
> > > got to be some kind hardware conflict which I don't understand
> > > exactly. I bought this msi geforce4 card over a year ago and it cost
> > > me $450 so I don't really feel like getting another video card.
> > >
> > > I would appreciate any comments or suggestions as to what I should do.
> > > thank you.
> >
> > AFAIK, the Asus burnout protection circuit is connected to the
> > TYPEDET pin on the AGP connector. If TYPEDET says the card would
> > prefer 3.3V, then the red led lights up, and powerup is gated off.
> > I don't think anything else influences how this works.
> >
> > Some manufacturers have made mistakes when building video cards.
> > The AGP standard clearly states, to make a logic 0 indication
> > on the video card, TYPEDET should be connected directly to ground.
> > Some manufacturers use a low value resistor to make the connection
> > instead (as the manufacturing test engineers prefer the use of
> > a resistor, as it eases testing the card at the factory).
> >
> > If the motherboard injects too much current into this pin, in
> > an attempt to test whether the pin is logic 0 or logic 1, then
> > with the resistor in place, an indeterminate level can result.
> > Apparently, this is enough to trigger the burnout protection.
> >
> > If the resistor has accidently been scraped off the board,
> > then the wrong level results. (I know about that, because
> > I've managed to rip two resistors off video cards while handling
> > them...)
> >
> > If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
> > is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
> > piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure the
> > card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an
> > end-user procedure, and if your video card has a warranty, you
> > might try returning it, in the hope that a later version of the
> > card fixes the issue.
> >
> > Sometimes, the reason for the malfunction, is a fault in the
> > burnout protection circuit on the motherboard. As you've reproduced
> > the problem on two motherboards, odds are the video card is at
> > fault, and not the motherboard circuit.
> >
> > Ref: See page 41 of:
> > http://developer.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp...
> >
> > The connector pinout is on page 50.
> >
> > I first learned about this issue, with respect to a Matrox
> > card that used a resistor for the TYPEDET pin. On the poster's
> > motherboard, instead of AGP 1.5V, the video card managed to
> > convince the motherboard to provide around 2V, which is incorrect
> > and presumably due to not having a good short directly to
> > ground as instructed in the standard.
> >
> > HTH,
> > Paul
>
> First of all, thank you so much for your insight. I didn't get a
> resonable response from neither asus, msi or msi forum, which tells me
> that the manufacturers don't really care about end users, just the companies
> they sell their products in bulk to.
> The card was not damaged in any way, scraped or anything like that, it's in
> immaculate condition, yet refuses to work. The card is no longer under any
> warranty so I could do anything to it. But I feel like I should take this
> issue up with the maker, msi, who didn't respond to the email I sent for
> over a week now. And the forum, independent of msi, didn't respond either.
>
> So now, if msi refuses to work with me on the card:
> Do you think they could fix such issues within asus mobo bios ?
> or is there anything I could do by myself to the card to make it work ?
>
> Again, thanx so much for your reply.

The burnout prevention circuitry won't let the board get any power,
so no BIOS setting will affect this in any way. What I was attempting
to do in my post, was explain that the problem is at a pretty low
level in the hardware. The fault in cases like this can be in the
little transistor circuit on the motherboard, or can be caused by
the video card manufacturer using a resistor on the TYPEDET# pin,
when the pin is supposed to go directly to ground, as an indicator
that the card prefers 1.5V.

If two motherboards with burnout prevention won't start with that
video card, then I would blame the fault on the video card. If
just one motherboard with burnout prevention won't work, it is a
tossup as to which one is at fault.

Take it to a shop, and ask the shop to check the voltage on
the AGP pin 2A TYPEDET# signal. It should read zero volts when
the card is plugged in. If it reads higher than that, then that
will be the reason the burnout prevention is tripped. The most
reliable way to fix it, would be to solder a wire from TYPEDET#
to a GND pin. (I am unaware of any other logic drive solutions
for that pin - it should either be grounded or left open. Using
a resistor between GND and TYPEDET#, as some video card manuf.
use, is wrong.)

The problem will be finding a shop that is comfortable doing
a mod like this. If you need backup documentation, the AGP specs
I've got were from:

ftp://download.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp20...
http://developer.intel.com/technology/agp/downloads/agp...

Since this is an implementation disagreement between two
manufacturers, the only end user option when the warranties
are exhausted, is to sell the defective item (TI4600), and buy a
later one that doesn't have the same problem.

Here is an example of some end users fighting with a similar
issue on some early version G400 cards. Obviously, the resistor
number they refer to on the G400, will be a different number
on your board. This is just to confirm that companies do make
this mistake with TYPEDET#. (Notice how "Haig" and Matrox
refuse to correct the board for their customers.)

http://forums.matroxusers.com/showthread.php?threadid=3...

This article shows what happened before Asus used the burnout
prevention circuit. Better for the motherboard not to start,
than for this to happen...

http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2001/october/01102...

HTH,
Paul
April 10, 2004 4:54:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <nospam-1004041204540001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
(Paul) wrote:

> > > If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
> > > is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
> > > piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure the
> > > card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an
> > > end-user procedure, and if your video card has a warranty, you
> > > might try returning it, in the hope that a later version of the
> > > card fixes the issue.

Word of warning, for you lurkers out there. My suggestion to do
this is NOT an invitation to fool around with every video card you
can lay your hands on!

To start with, refer to Figure 2 on this page:
http://mirror.ati.com/support/faq/agpchart.html

There are three kinds of keyings, on AGP video cards.

1) Card is 3.3V keyed only. TYPEDET# will be open. Card will not
fit in a 1.5V motherboard, so there is no reason to even try
modding that card. The card will only fit in older motherboards
anyway.
2) Card is 1.5V keyed only. This would be a very modern AGP card,
suitable for AGP 3.0 4X or 8X only operation. TYPEDET# is
already grounded. If you plug this into a modern motherboard
and you cannot get the motherboard to power up, then check the
video card, to see if TYPEDET# is grounded.
3) Card is universal (1.5V or 3.3V operation possible). My
assumption in my previous post, is that the OPs card is a
universal card, with the two slots cut in it. Further, it is
not one of the cards known to be miskeyed. So, for example,
some of the "bad" cards in the vanshardware list may have
accidently had the 1.5V slot cut in the edge card, when they
are not really 1.5V cards. TYPEDET# would be open on a card
like that, and if you wire TYPEDET# on what is really a
3.3V only card to ground, you will be preventing the Asus
burnout circuit from doing its job - your motherboard would
get destroyed!

http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2001/october/01102...

Consequently, check Google for cards known to burn out
modern motherboards, due to the fact that the card was
mis-keyed. (Roland probably has a better list of the cards
that are mis-keyed, and has corrected me in the past.)
The Ti4600 is modern enough, that I know it is not mis-keyed.
Cards which burned out early P4B motherboards would be
examples of the "bad" ones.
4) Card is universal (1.5V or 3.3V operation possible) and
really does support both 1.5V and 3.3V operation. AFAIK, at
least Geforce3 or later cards would qualify. If one of these
cards has left TYPEDET# open, and your modern Asus motherboard
won't start, because it thinks it has detected a 3.3V only
video card, this would be a candidate for the mod. As I
said previously, when the motherboard won't start, it could
be a fault with the motherboard or with the video card. If
multiple modern Asus motherboards won't start with that video
card, that increases the chances the problem is with the
video card. At that point, I would take an ohmmeter, and verify
that TYPEDET# is connected directly to GND, and mod if
necessary.

Case (4) is the one I am applying to the original question.
So don't go out and ground every video card you own, without
checking out why the mod is needed first. Applying the mod to
an SIS305 for example (case (3) above), would mean instant death
to your modern Asus motherboard. Here is some clarification of
the situation with the SIS305:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm...

Paul
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2004 8:15:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<nospam-1004041255070001@192.168.1.177>...
> In article <nospam-1004041204540001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> (Paul) wrote:
>
> > > > If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
> > > > is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
> > > > piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure the
> > > > card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an
> > > > end-user procedure, and if your video card has a warranty, you
> > > > might try returning it, in the hope that a later version of the
> > > > card fixes the issue.
>
> Word of warning, for you lurkers out there. My suggestion to do
> this is NOT an invitation to fool around with every video card you
> can lay your hands on!
>
> To start with, refer to Figure 2 on this page:
> http://mirror.ati.com/support/faq/agpchart.html
>
> There are three kinds of keyings, on AGP video cards.
>
> 1) Card is 3.3V keyed only. TYPEDET# will be open. Card will not
> fit in a 1.5V motherboard, so there is no reason to even try
> modding that card. The card will only fit in older motherboards
> anyway.
> 2) Card is 1.5V keyed only. This would be a very modern AGP card,
> suitable for AGP 3.0 4X or 8X only operation. TYPEDET# is
> already grounded. If you plug this into a modern motherboard
> and you cannot get the motherboard to power up, then check the
> video card, to see if TYPEDET# is grounded.
> 3) Card is universal (1.5V or 3.3V operation possible). My
> assumption in my previous post, is that the OPs card is a
> universal card, with the two slots cut in it. Further, it is
> not one of the cards known to be miskeyed. So, for example,
> some of the "bad" cards in the vanshardware list may have
> accidently had the 1.5V slot cut in the edge card, when they
> are not really 1.5V cards. TYPEDET# would be open on a card
> like that, and if you wire TYPEDET# on what is really a
> 3.3V only card to ground, you will be preventing the Asus
> burnout circuit from doing its job - your motherboard would
> get destroyed!
>
> http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2001/october/01102...
>
> Consequently, check Google for cards known to burn out
> modern motherboards, due to the fact that the card was
> mis-keyed. (Roland probably has a better list of the cards
> that are mis-keyed, and has corrected me in the past.)
> The Ti4600 is modern enough, that I know it is not mis-keyed.
> Cards which burned out early P4B motherboards would be
> examples of the "bad" ones.
> 4) Card is universal (1.5V or 3.3V operation possible) and
> really does support both 1.5V and 3.3V operation. AFAIK, at
> least Geforce3 or later cards would qualify. If one of these
> cards has left TYPEDET# open, and your modern Asus motherboard
> won't start, because it thinks it has detected a 3.3V only
> video card, this would be a candidate for the mod. As I
> said previously, when the motherboard won't start, it could
> be a fault with the motherboard or with the video card. If
> multiple modern Asus motherboards won't start with that video
> card, that increases the chances the problem is with the
> video card. At that point, I would take an ohmmeter, and verify
> that TYPEDET# is connected directly to GND, and mod if
> necessary.
>
> Case (4) is the one I am applying to the original question.
> So don't go out and ground every video card you own, without
> checking out why the mod is needed first. Applying the mod to
> an SIS305 for example (case (3) above), would mean instant death
> to your modern Asus motherboard. Here is some clarification of
> the situation with the SIS305:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm...
>
> Paul



hello again,
and all I can say is WOW, UNBELIEVABLE, and thank you so much. I
would never
be able to find all this information, and to make my case strong
enough to msi.
I wrote them an email explaining all that I've learned. Hopefully
they'll find a resolution to it and if they don't then I'll have no
choice but to manualy adjust my card.
I read thoroughly the posts of others, so far it doesn't all fit in my
head especially that the big companies would do such things. anyway,
I'll wait for an answer from msi and post it right back once that's
out of the way.
I've done things with my amigas, soldering on the motherboard as well
so I'm not afraid of the procedures you're explaining.
Again, I appreciate all your help and thank you.
Talk to you soon.
Jack
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
April 13, 2004 12:17:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

dluxea@yahoo.com (dluxea) wrote in message news:<453d04da.0404101515.38d8f219@posting.google.com>...
> nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<nospam-1004041255070001@192.168.1.177>...
> > In article <nospam-1004041204540001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> > (Paul) wrote:
> >
> > > > > If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
> > > > > is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
> > > > > piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure the
> > > > > card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an
> > > > > end-user procedure, and if your video card has a warranty, you
> > > > > might try returning it, in the hope that a later version of the
> > > > > card fixes the issue.
> >
> > Word of warning, for you lurkers out there. My suggestion to do
> > this is NOT an invitation to fool around with every video card you
> > can lay your hands on!
> >
> > To start with, refer to Figure 2 on this page:
> > http://mirror.ati.com/support/faq/agpchart.html
> >
> > There are three kinds of keyings, on AGP video cards.
> >
> > 1) Card is 3.3V keyed only. TYPEDET# will be open. Card will not
> > fit in a 1.5V motherboard, so there is no reason to even try
> > modding that card. The card will only fit in older motherboards
> > anyway.
> > 2) Card is 1.5V keyed only. This would be a very modern AGP card,
> > suitable for AGP 3.0 4X or 8X only operation. TYPEDET# is
> > already grounded. If you plug this into a modern motherboard
> > and you cannot get the motherboard to power up, then check the
> > video card, to see if TYPEDET# is grounded.
> > 3) Card is universal (1.5V or 3.3V operation possible). My
> > assumption in my previous post, is that the OPs card is a
> > universal card, with the two slots cut in it. Further, it is
> > not one of the cards known to be miskeyed. So, for example,
> > some of the "bad" cards in the vanshardware list may have
> > accidently had the 1.5V slot cut in the edge card, when they
> > are not really 1.5V cards. TYPEDET# would be open on a card
> > like that, and if you wire TYPEDET# on what is really a
> > 3.3V only card to ground, you will be preventing the Asus
> > burnout circuit from doing its job - your motherboard would
> > get destroyed!
> >
> > http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2001/october/01102...
> >
> > Consequently, check Google for cards known to burn out
> > modern motherboards, due to the fact that the card was
> > mis-keyed. (Roland probably has a better list of the cards
> > that are mis-keyed, and has corrected me in the past.)
> > The Ti4600 is modern enough, that I know it is not mis-keyed.
> > Cards which burned out early P4B motherboards would be
> > examples of the "bad" ones.
> > 4) Card is universal (1.5V or 3.3V operation possible) and
> > really does support both 1.5V and 3.3V operation. AFAIK, at
> > least Geforce3 or later cards would qualify. If one of these
> > cards has left TYPEDET# open, and your modern Asus motherboard
> > won't start, because it thinks it has detected a 3.3V only
> > video card, this would be a candidate for the mod. As I
> > said previously, when the motherboard won't start, it could
> > be a fault with the motherboard or with the video card. If
> > multiple modern Asus motherboards won't start with that video
> > card, that increases the chances the problem is with the
> > video card. At that point, I would take an ohmmeter, and verify
> > that TYPEDET# is connected directly to GND, and mod if
> > necessary.
> >
> > Case (4) is the one I am applying to the original question.
> > So don't go out and ground every video card you own, without
> > checking out why the mod is needed first. Applying the mod to
> > an SIS305 for example (case (3) above), would mean instant death
> > to your modern Asus motherboard. Here is some clarification of
> > the situation with the SIS305:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm...
> >
> > Paul
>
>
>
> hello again,
> and all I can say is WOW, UNBELIEVABLE, and thank you so much. I
> would never
> be able to find all this information, and to make my case strong
> enough to msi.
> I wrote them an email explaining all that I've learned. Hopefully
> they'll find a resolution to it and if they don't then I'll have no
> choice but to manualy adjust my card.
> I read thoroughly the posts of others, so far it doesn't all fit in my
> head especially that the big companies would do such things. anyway,
> I'll wait for an answer from msi and post it right back once that's
> out of the way.
> I've done things with my amigas, soldering on the motherboard as well
> so I'm not afraid of the procedures you're explaining.
> Again, I appreciate all your help and thank you.
> Talk to you soon.
> Jack


Hi again,
Just as I expected, msi is blaming asus for having bad motherboards,
they replied:
"Please remove all unnecessary devices, such as DVD, HDD etc. And
please reinstall only the CPU, CPU fan, VGA and memory to check if the
computer can boot normally. "
(ok I've done it a few times already)

"From your mail, you used this video card with an abit vp6 motherboard
and it worked great, and you install other VGA card on the asus
p4c800e deluxe mobo is ok. so your VGA card and motherboard are all
ok. It might be compatibility the VGA card and motherboard.
MSI geforce 4 ti 4600 is following the Nvidia design. We would suggest
you could contact your motherboard vendor to ask for a hardware
solution through bios update. Sorry for any inconvenience."

So yet again I wrote back explaining the situation and quoting the
websites you referred me to.
I can't believe it.

Jack
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
April 18, 2004 9:21:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

> If it was my card, I would use an ohmmeter, to check whether TYPEDET
> is connected to GND on the video card via a direct short. A little
> piece of wire soldered to the right two points would help ensure
the
> card is sending a good level to the motherboard. This is not an

hello again.
I tried to fight msi, but it gave me no results. they didn't read my
emails thoroughly and I got irritated so I didn't respond.
at this point I read your emails and the links you entered quite a few
times
trying to figure out what to do with the video card. I examined both
gef3 and gef4, both by msi, the first one works in the asus mobos and
the 2nd one doesn't. this is what happened:
I flipped both of the cards upside down. got an ohmometer and tried
to put one pen on a2 which is typedet# and the other on the grounding
just as they showed it here:
http://www.hardtecs4u.com/reviews/2001/agp4x_e/index3.p...
gef4: there was no signal and it measured nothing
gef3: there was a signal and the meter read 4.5 5.0 of something.
I'm not familiar on with what it read, I'm no engineer.

the idea of running a wire is kool with me but if the pin on the
right, next to typedet# is ground it should give me the same sound
when I made the connection to the bracket of the video card. neither
of the cards did.
forgive me, but the pins are so small, if I do it, I have to do it
once and do it right.
would it be ok to run a small wire from a2 to the bracket of video
card ? would it give the same effect ?

thank you again.
Jack
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
May 19, 2004 11:58:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Just to let you all know what happened.
They have a 3 year warranty on the video cards and I ended up sending
the video card back to msi. it wasn't easy to find that there is
'another' msi based in california that takes care of such issues.
their tech support is dead but I did get someone on the phone that
gave me an rma number. after about a month I finally called them to
find out what happened with my card. a guy over the phone suggested I
would upgrade to a better card and that's what I did. at this point
I'm waiting for this new card which has better specs than the original
anyway. which makes me somewhat happy after a 3 months bitter
experience with msi.
so at the end I wanted to thank you for your input and suggestions
although it came out to be a half burnt video card.
thanx again.
Jack
May 19, 2004 8:13:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <453d04da.0405190658.2729869b@posting.google.com>,
dluxea@yahoo.com (dluxea) wrote:

> Just to let you all know what happened.
> They have a 3 year warranty on the video cards and I ended up sending
> the video card back to msi. it wasn't easy to find that there is
> 'another' msi based in california that takes care of such issues.
> their tech support is dead but I did get someone on the phone that
> gave me an rma number. after about a month I finally called them to
> find out what happened with my card. a guy over the phone suggested I
> would upgrade to a better card and that's what I did. at this point
> I'm waiting for this new card which has better specs than the original
> anyway. which makes me somewhat happy after a 3 months bitter
> experience with msi.
> so at the end I wanted to thank you for your input and suggestions
> although it came out to be a half burnt video card.
> thanx again.
> Jack

I'm sorry, I didn't see your post of Apr18. I use a crude
USENET reader - selected for the fact that it is so old,
it won't execute any content (so no viruses). The downside
is, I have to manually check old threads to see if they
have changed.

When you read "4.5 or 5.0", was that on the ohms range ?
The gef4 that "it measured nothing", I take it the
ohmmeter read the same as when the probes aren't
touching anything ? Like it was an open circuit with
respect to ground on the faceplate.

Is the MSI guy giving you an upgraded card, to replace the
other one under warranty ? I hope they're not just
"sitting on your property".

If it was my card, I would have soldered the wire on it
and tried it, as there is no reason for a GF4 not to work.
But I don't feel comfortable asking someone else to
risk their motherboard in such an experiment, especially
if they are hesitant to try it.

Hope MSI comes through with something. Maybe in California
there is some legal remedy ? Or at least the ability to
threaten them ?

HTH,
Paul
!