Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <834df4bf.0406201526.7c30dceb@posting.google.com>,
speed153@hotmail.com (FrizzEd) wrote:

> Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
> Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
> I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...

According to this web site:

http://www.pcicase.co.uk/

there are 1U enclosures for ATX or EATX boards. So, the "X" and "Y"
dimension aren't a problem.

You'll have to eyeball the heatsink on the Northbridge and also
figure out how to cool the processor, to make it work. The
products on the pcicase web page, refer to 250W power supplies,
and obviously the air volume of a 1U enclosure is small, so
there will be a fairly low limit as to how much power you can
dissipate in a small space.

If the application is not running 100% all the time, the CnQ
feature will help a lot with processor heat. But, as soon
as the processor goes to 100%, you've got a heat problem.

If you are planning on a rack full of these, buy a good air
conditioner :-) Talk to an HVAC person about cooling.

If you want maximum compute power, consider some of the Tyan
bare board quad Opteron solutions. The board has room for
four processors and up to 10 DDR DIMMs. I believe the form factor
is EATX, and the pcicase site has an enclosure for that. Then,
you can play with using a wider enclosure for moving air through it.

Looking at their web site, they are announcing a pre-packaged
2U solution. It has a 700W power supply! You'll never be cold
in the winter.

http://www.tyan.com/html/pr04_tx46b4882.html

Paul

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Thank you for your quick response. I'm mostly worried about the three
on-board sound jacks that stack vertically, I've heard this can be a
1U problem. I'm kind of locked into an Asus K8V SE Deluxe/3200+ bundle
(big rebate, already ordered), so my options are limited.
Will an AMD64 motherboard take Opteron heatsinks (1U)?
I chose 1U primarily as a career learning experience (everybody has a
Shuttle XPC, myself included, thought I'd be different). It will
primarily act as a file server/web browser. The machine will not be in
a rack with other blades, so that gives me a little more creativity
with cooling. I was thinking of doing a wall mount:
http://www.racksolutions.com/wall- [...] acks.shtml
I also understand that noise levels may be higher than I'm used to.

nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<nospam-2006042315100001@192.168.1.177>...
> In article <834df4bf.0406201526.7c30dceb@posting.google.com>,
> (FrizzEd) wrote:
>
> > Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
> > Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
> > I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...
>
> According to this web site:
>
> http://www.pcicase.co.uk/
>
> there are 1U enclosures for ATX or EATX boards. So, the "X" and "Y"
> dimension aren't a problem.
>
> You'll have to eyeball the heatsink on the Northbridge and also
> figure out how to cool the processor, to make it work. The
> products on the pcicase web page, refer to 250W power supplies,
> and obviously the air volume of a 1U enclosure is small, so
> there will be a fairly low limit as to how much power you can
> dissipate in a small space.
>
> If the application is not running 100% all the time, the CnQ
> feature will help a lot with processor heat. But, as soon
> as the processor goes to 100%, you've got a heat problem.
>
> If you are planning on a rack full of these, buy a good air
> conditioner :-) Talk to an HVAC person about cooling.
>
> If you want maximum compute power, consider some of the Tyan
> bare board quad Opteron solutions. The board has room for
> four processors and up to 10 DDR DIMMs. I believe the form factor
> is EATX, and the pcicase site has an enclosure for that. Then,
> you can play with using a wider enclosure for moving air through it.
>
> Looking at their web site, they are announcing a pre-packaged
> 2U solution. It has a 700W power supply! You'll never be cold
> in the winter.
>
> http://www.tyan.com/html/pr04_tx46b4882.html
>
> Paul

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <834df4bf.0406210749.7e28064@posting.google.com>,
speed153@hotmail.com (FrizzEd) wrote:

> Thank you for your quick response. I'm mostly worried about the three
> on-board sound jacks that stack vertically, I've heard this can be a
> 1U problem. I'm kind of locked into an Asus K8V SE Deluxe/3200+ bundle
> (big rebate, already ordered), so my options are limited.
> Will an AMD64 motherboard take Opteron heatsinks (1U)?
> I chose 1U primarily as a career learning experience (everybody has a
> Shuttle XPC, myself included, thought I'd be different). It will
> primarily act as a file server/web browser. The machine will not be in
> a rack with other blades, so that gives me a little more creativity
> with cooling. I was thinking of doing a wall mount:
> http://www.racksolutions.com/wall- [...] acks.shtml
> I also understand that noise levels may be higher than I'm used to.\

Will it POST without a video card ? Maybe you'll need to select
a larger package, to make room for at least one plugin card.
And, I didn't even think about connectors, some connector stacks
are pretty tall.

Paul

>
> nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message
news:<nospam-2006042315100001@192.168.1.177>...
> > In article <834df4bf.0406201526.7c30dceb@posting.google.com>,
> > (FrizzEd) wrote:
> >
> > > Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
> > > Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
> > > I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...
> >
> > According to this web site:
> >
> > http://www.pcicase.co.uk/
> >
> > there are 1U enclosures for ATX or EATX boards. So, the "X" and "Y"
> > dimension aren't a problem.
> >
> > You'll have to eyeball the heatsink on the Northbridge and also
> > figure out how to cool the processor, to make it work. The
> > products on the pcicase web page, refer to 250W power supplies,
> > and obviously the air volume of a 1U enclosure is small, so
> > there will be a fairly low limit as to how much power you can
> > dissipate in a small space.
> >
> > If the application is not running 100% all the time, the CnQ
> > feature will help a lot with processor heat. But, as soon
> > as the processor goes to 100%, you've got a heat problem.
> >
> > If you are planning on a rack full of these, buy a good air
> > conditioner :-) Talk to an HVAC person about cooling.
> >
> > If you want maximum compute power, consider some of the Tyan
> > bare board quad Opteron solutions. The board has room for
> > four processors and up to 10 DDR DIMMs. I believe the form factor
> > is EATX, and the pcicase site has an enclosure for that. Then,
> > you can play with using a wider enclosure for moving air through it.
> >
> > Looking at their web site, they are announcing a pre-packaged
> > 2U solution. It has a 700W power supply! You'll never be cold
> > in the winter.
> >
> > http://www.tyan.com/html/pr04_tx46b4882.html
> >
> > Paul

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <nospam-2106041913490001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
(Paul) wrote:

> In article <834df4bf.0406210749.7e28064@posting.google.com>,
> speed153@hotmail.com (FrizzEd) wrote:
>
> > Thank you for your quick response. I'm mostly worried about the three
> > on-board sound jacks that stack vertically, I've heard this can be a
> > 1U problem. I'm kind of locked into an Asus K8V SE Deluxe/3200+ bundle
> > (big rebate, already ordered), so my options are limited.
> > Will an AMD64 motherboard take Opteron heatsinks (1U)?
> > I chose 1U primarily as a career learning experience (everybody has a
> > Shuttle XPC, myself included, thought I'd be different). It will
> > primarily act as a file server/web browser. The machine will not be in
> > a rack with other blades, so that gives me a little more creativity
> > with cooling. I was thinking of doing a wall mount:
> > http://www.racksolutions.com/wall- [...] acks.shtml
> > I also understand that noise levels may be higher than I'm used to.\
>
> Will it POST without a video card ? Maybe you'll need to select
> a larger package, to make room for at least one plugin card.
> And, I didn't even think about connectors, some connector stacks
> are pretty tall.
>
> Paul

Maybe you'll need a riser card. This doc lists some riser cards,
for turning a slot sideways.

ftp://ftp.tyan.com/matrix/matrix_riser.pdf

Now, all you need is a low profile socket 754 heatsink/fan.

And, perhaps, to unsolder the audio connector. I have a board
with a similar audio connector, and it is 1.55" off the top
of the board, and that could be a tight fit. I think I saw 1.75"
mentioned for 1U, but you'd need space for the covers etc in
that space, so it will be a close thing.

How tall are the RAM DIMMs ?

Besides, the larger volume you use for the case, the easier
it will be to cool (the fans can be a bit quieter, if they
are larger).

HTH,
Paul

>
> >
> > nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message
> news:<nospam-2006042315100001@192.168.1.177>...
> > > In article <834df4bf.0406201526.7c30dceb@posting.google.com>,
> > > (FrizzEd) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
> > > > Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
> > > > I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...
> > >
> > > According to this web site:
> > >
> > > http://www.pcicase.co.uk/
> > >
> > > there are 1U enclosures for ATX or EATX boards. So, the "X" and "Y"
> > > dimension aren't a problem.
> > >
> > > You'll have to eyeball the heatsink on the Northbridge and also
> > > figure out how to cool the processor, to make it work. The
> > > products on the pcicase web page, refer to 250W power supplies,
> > > and obviously the air volume of a 1U enclosure is small, so
> > > there will be a fairly low limit as to how much power you can
> > > dissipate in a small space.
> > >
> > > If the application is not running 100% all the time, the CnQ
> > > feature will help a lot with processor heat. But, as soon
> > > as the processor goes to 100%, you've got a heat problem.
> > >
> > > If you are planning on a rack full of these, buy a good air
> > > conditioner :-) Talk to an HVAC person about cooling.
> > >
> > > If you want maximum compute power, consider some of the Tyan
> > > bare board quad Opteron solutions. The board has room for
> > > four processors and up to 10 DDR DIMMs. I believe the form factor
> > > is EATX, and the pcicase site has an enclosure for that. Then,
> > > you can play with using a wider enclosure for moving air through it.
> > >
> > > Looking at their web site, they are announcing a pre-packaged
> > > 2U solution. It has a 700W power supply! You'll never be cold
> > > in the winter.
> > >
> > > http://www.tyan.com/html/pr04_tx46b4882.html
> > >
> > > Paul

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <nospam-2106041928290001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
(Paul) wrote:

> In article <nospam-2106041913490001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> (Paul) wrote:
>
> > In article <834df4bf.0406210749.7e28064@posting.google.com>,
> > speed153@hotmail.com (FrizzEd) wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you for your quick response. I'm mostly worried about the three
> > > on-board sound jacks that stack vertically, I've heard this can be a
> > > 1U problem. I'm kind of locked into an Asus K8V SE Deluxe/3200+ bundle
> > > (big rebate, already ordered), so my options are limited.
> > > Will an AMD64 motherboard take Opteron heatsinks (1U)?
> > > I chose 1U primarily as a career learning experience (everybody has a
> > > Shuttle XPC, myself included, thought I'd be different). It will
> > > primarily act as a file server/web browser. The machine will not be in
> > > a rack with other blades, so that gives me a little more creativity
> > > with cooling. I was thinking of doing a wall mount:
> > > http://www.racksolutions.com/wall- [...] acks.shtml
> > > I also understand that noise levels may be higher than I'm used to.\
> >
> > Will it POST without a video card ? Maybe you'll need to select
> > a larger package, to make room for at least one plugin card.
> > And, I didn't even think about connectors, some connector stacks
> > are pretty tall.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Maybe you'll need a riser card. This doc lists some riser cards,
> for turning a slot sideways.
>
> ftp://ftp.tyan.com/matrix/matrix_riser.pdf
>
> Now, all you need is a low profile socket 754 heatsink/fan.
>
> And, perhaps, to unsolder the audio connector. I have a board
> with a similar audio connector, and it is 1.55" off the top
> of the board, and that could be a tight fit. I think I saw 1.75"
> mentioned for 1U, but you'd need space for the covers etc in
> that space, so it will be a close thing.
>
> How tall are the RAM DIMMs ?
>
> Besides, the larger volume you use for the case, the easier
> it will be to cool (the fans can be a bit quieter, if they
> are larger).
>
> HTH,
> Paul
>
Working through some dimensions,

1U is 1.75", at least that is what I see in Google.
Now, adding up the dimensions, from bottom to top of assembly -
these are estimates only:

0.040" Sheet metal cover
0.1" Clearance for component leads on underside of motherboard
There will probably be some kind of standoff on the sheet
metal cover to enforce this clearance.
0.0625" Standard 1/16" thick motherboard.
1.55" Connector for three sound jacks
0.040" Top sheet metal cover
1.79" (total)

So, the sound connector might just be a bit too tall for 1U.

In terms of cooling, there are certainly copper heatsink cooling
solutions for Xeons S603/604 in 1U configuration, but S754/940 is
quite new, and there aren't likely to be a lot of new products out
for that.

This one is 2.7" from the top of the die. A thinner fan might
help. This looks like a better fit with a 2U enclosure. Needs more
dimensional info to be absolutely sure.
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcx64-V.asp

This one has an even thicker base, and you buy the fan separately.
http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcx6400-V.asp

Maybe you could use the mcx64-v and remove the fan. Then, you'll
need to examine the design of the typical 1U enclosure, to see
if there is a way to build a duct from whatever moves air through
the enclosure, around the CPU heatsink. A squirrel cage blower
is an option, instead of a standard fan, and maybe a "wind tunnel"
style cooling solution can be constructed.

The thing about aggressive packaging, is there is less room for
mistakes, and the execution has to be precise. I can promise you,
from working in rooms full of compact, high power equipment, that
the 1U solution cannot be quiet. For your own sanity, try something
larger, like a 4U, as you can use more standard solutions to get
the system working. After all, the objective is to have a working
server in a reasonable time, not to reengineer a new packaging
solution on your own.

If you were serious about building a quiet server, a better platform
would be mini-itx. While the processors are gutless (1GHz), the
thermal performance is much better. Some of those systems are powered
by an external 60W power brick, to build the basic computer. If you
have a lot of disks, that would necessitate bumping up the power
supply somewhat.

This board, for example, can use a Tualatin, and there are still
a few of those left. They draw 35W at 100% load, for the fastest
ones.

http://www.commell.com.tw/Product/SBC/LV-603.HTM

Check out the Via boards reviewed and sold from this site. They
can be housed in very small and elegant packages:

http://www.mini-itx.com/ (reviews and articles)
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/ (product for sale)

You could always save the K8V SE for a desktop upgrade for
an existing computer.

HTH,
Paul

> >
> > >
> > > nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message
> > news:<nospam-2006042315100001@192.168.1.177>...
> > > > In article <834df4bf.0406201526.7c30dceb@posting.google.com>,
> > > > (FrizzEd) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
> > > > > Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
> > > > > I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...
> > > >
> > > > According to this web site:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.pcicase.co.uk/
> > > >
> > > > there are 1U enclosures for ATX or EATX boards. So, the "X" and "Y"
> > > > dimension aren't a problem.
> > > >
> > > > You'll have to eyeball the heatsink on the Northbridge and also
> > > > figure out how to cool the processor, to make it work. The
> > > > products on the pcicase web page, refer to 250W power supplies,
> > > > and obviously the air volume of a 1U enclosure is small, so
> > > > there will be a fairly low limit as to how much power you can
> > > > dissipate in a small space.
> > > >
> > > > If the application is not running 100% all the time, the CnQ
> > > > feature will help a lot with processor heat. But, as soon
> > > > as the processor goes to 100%, you've got a heat problem.
> > > >
> > > > If you are planning on a rack full of these, buy a good air
> > > > conditioner :-) Talk to an HVAC person about cooling.
> > > >
> > > > If you want maximum compute power, consider some of the Tyan
> > > > bare board quad Opteron solutions. The board has room for
> > > > four processors and up to 10 DDR DIMMs. I believe the form factor
> > > > is EATX, and the pcicase site has an enclosure for that. Then,
> > > > you can play with using a wider enclosure for moving air through it.
> > > >
> > > > Looking at their web site, they are announcing a pre-packaged
> > > > 2U solution. It has a 700W power supply! You'll never be cold
> > > > in the winter.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.tyan.com/html/pr04_tx46b4882.html
> > > >
> > > > Paul

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

This is what actually started this madness BTW:
http://www.crystalfontz.com/forum/ [...] eadid=2024

I do have a tualatin kicking around from a Shuttle SV25 that has a bad
motherboard (the caps leaked). It even has a 1U heatsink/fan
combination to save room . My plan is to get a 1U case, see how much
of a headache the AMD64 board and processor is to set up. Worse case
senario I can put the AMD64 combo in a generic InWin tower that I have
kicking around and go socket 370 for the 1U.

nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<nospam-2206040132230001@192.168.1.177>...
> In article <nospam-2106041928290001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> (Paul) wrote:
>
> > In article <nospam-2106041913490001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> > (Paul) wrote:
> >
> > > In article <834df4bf.0406210749.7e28064@posting.google.com>,
> > > speed153@hotmail.com (FrizzEd) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you for your quick response. I'm mostly worried about the three
> > > > on-board sound jacks that stack vertically, I've heard this can be a
> > > > 1U problem. I'm kind of locked into an Asus K8V SE Deluxe/3200+ bundle
> > > > (big rebate, already ordered), so my options are limited.
> > > > Will an AMD64 motherboard take Opteron heatsinks (1U)?
> > > > I chose 1U primarily as a career learning experience (everybody has a
> > > > Shuttle XPC, myself included, thought I'd be different). It will
> > > > primarily act as a file server/web browser. The machine will not be in
> > > > a rack with other blades, so that gives me a little more creativity
> > > > with cooling. I was thinking of doing a wall mount:
> > > > http://www.racksolutions.com/wall- [...] acks.shtml
> > > > I also understand that noise levels may be higher than I'm used to.\
> > >
> > > Will it POST without a video card ? Maybe you'll need to select
> > > a larger package, to make room for at least one plugin card.
> > > And, I didn't even think about connectors, some connector stacks
> > > are pretty tall.
> > >
> > > Paul
> >
> > Maybe you'll need a riser card. This doc lists some riser cards,
> > for turning a slot sideways.
> >
> > ftp://ftp.tyan.com/matrix/matrix_riser.pdf
> >
> > Now, all you need is a low profile socket 754 heatsink/fan.
> >
> > And, perhaps, to unsolder the audio connector. I have a board
> > with a similar audio connector, and it is 1.55" off the top
> > of the board, and that could be a tight fit. I think I saw 1.75"
> > mentioned for 1U, but you'd need space for the covers etc in
> > that space, so it will be a close thing.
> >
> > How tall are the RAM DIMMs ?
> >
> > Besides, the larger volume you use for the case, the easier
> > it will be to cool (the fans can be a bit quieter, if they
> > are larger).
> >
> > HTH,
> > Paul
> >
> Working through some dimensions,
>
> 1U is 1.75", at least that is what I see in Google.
> Now, adding up the dimensions, from bottom to top of assembly -
> these are estimates only:
>
> 0.040" Sheet metal cover
> 0.1" Clearance for component leads on underside of motherboard
> There will probably be some kind of standoff on the sheet
> metal cover to enforce this clearance.
> 0.0625" Standard 1/16" thick motherboard.
> 1.55" Connector for three sound jacks
> 0.040" Top sheet metal cover
> 1.79" (total)
>
> So, the sound connector might just be a bit too tall for 1U.
>
> In terms of cooling, there are certainly copper heatsink cooling
> solutions for Xeons S603/604 in 1U configuration, but S754/940 is
> quite new, and there aren't likely to be a lot of new products out
> for that.
>
> This one is 2.7" from the top of the die. A thinner fan might
> help. This looks like a better fit with a 2U enclosure. Needs more
> dimensional info to be absolutely sure.
> http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcx64-V.asp
>
> This one has an even thicker base, and you buy the fan separately.
> http://www.swiftnets.com/products/mcx6400-V.asp
>
> Maybe you could use the mcx64-v and remove the fan. Then, you'll
> need to examine the design of the typical 1U enclosure, to see
> if there is a way to build a duct from whatever moves air through
> the enclosure, around the CPU heatsink. A squirrel cage blower
> is an option, instead of a standard fan, and maybe a "wind tunnel"
> style cooling solution can be constructed.
>
> The thing about aggressive packaging, is there is less room for
> mistakes, and the execution has to be precise. I can promise you,
> from working in rooms full of compact, high power equipment, that
> the 1U solution cannot be quiet. For your own sanity, try something
> larger, like a 4U, as you can use more standard solutions to get
> the system working. After all, the objective is to have a working
> server in a reasonable time, not to reengineer a new packaging
> solution on your own.
>
> If you were serious about building a quiet server, a better platform
> would be mini-itx. While the processors are gutless (1GHz), the
> thermal performance is much better. Some of those systems are powered
> by an external 60W power brick, to build the basic computer. If you
> have a lot of disks, that would necessitate bumping up the power
> supply somewhat.
>
> This board, for example, can use a Tualatin, and there are still
> a few of those left. They draw 35W at 100% load, for the fastest
> ones.
>
> http://www.commell.com.tw/Product/SBC/LV-603.HTM
>
> Check out the Via boards reviewed and sold from this site. They
> can be housed in very small and elegant packages:
>
> http://www.mini-itx.com/ (reviews and articles)
> http://www.mini-itx.com/store/ (product for sale)
>
> You could always save the K8V SE for a desktop upgrade for
> an existing computer.
>
> HTH,
> Paul
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > nospam@needed.com (Paul) wrote in message
> news:<nospam-2006042315100001@192.168.1.177>...
> > > > > In article <834df4bf.0406201526.7c30dceb@posting.google.com>,
> > > > > (FrizzEd) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Will the Asus K8V SE Deluxe SE motherboard fit in a 1U rackmount case?
> > > > > > Do I have to go Opteron to even think about 1U?
> > > > > > I presume 2U wouldn't be a problem...
> > > > >
> > > > > According to this web site:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.pcicase.co.uk/
> > > > >
> > > > > there are 1U enclosures for ATX or EATX boards. So, the "X" and "Y"
> > > > > dimension aren't a problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > You'll have to eyeball the heatsink on the Northbridge and also
> > > > > figure out how to cool the processor, to make it work. The
> > > > > products on the pcicase web page, refer to 250W power supplies,
> > > > > and obviously the air volume of a 1U enclosure is small, so
> > > > > there will be a fairly low limit as to how much power you can
> > > > > dissipate in a small space.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the application is not running 100% all the time, the CnQ
> > > > > feature will help a lot with processor heat. But, as soon
> > > > > as the processor goes to 100%, you've got a heat problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are planning on a rack full of these, buy a good air
> > > > > conditioner :-) Talk to an HVAC person about cooling.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want maximum compute power, consider some of the Tyan
> > > > > bare board quad Opteron solutions. The board has room for
> > > > > four processors and up to 10 DDR DIMMs. I believe the form factor
> > > > > is EATX, and the pcicase site has an enclosure for that. Then,
> > > > > you can play with using a wider enclosure for moving air through it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking at their web site, they are announcing a pre-packaged
> > > > > 2U solution. It has a 700W power supply! You'll never be cold
> > > > > in the winter.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.tyan.com/html/pr04_tx46b4882.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul