| Quote : Iran, whose president has labeled the attempt by Nazi Germany to exterminate Jews during World War II a "myth" and called for the destruction of Israel, announced Sunday it will hold a conference on the Holocaust.
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Iran plans Holocaust conference
Oh, I'm sure we'll get this cleared up once and for all now ...
Although I could easily jump in on the Iranian president bashing I think it's important to recognize how he got there in the first place.
In 1953 the Eisenhower administration helped overthrow the elected Prime Minister in order to put the Shaw back in power. The Shaw was of course pro modernization and pro american. It wasn't until 1979 that he was ousted from power. In his place an anti-american radical took his place and now we have all these problems.
i think Iran would have had a huge moral standing point if it had never made coments about the holocaust.
i think raising that in the debate will only work against them.
everything else they are saying can not be argued against by other countries due to hypocracy. but that one issue is not really up for debate in to many peoples opinions.
Iran getting labeled as hitler will only make people stop things before they happen..... if they had not talked about any genocide (they could fairly and civily talk about getting rid of Isreal as a debate topic, but not in relation to the holocaust) then they would have been sweet.
Alltaken
| Quote : Although I could easily jump in on the Iranian president bashing I think it's important to recognize how he got there in the first place. |
I don't see the importance of it. And your post does nothing to explain how this particular idiot rose to power.
| Quote : In 1953 the Eisenhower administration helped overthrow the elected Prime Minister in order to put the Shaw back in power. The Shaw was of course pro modernization and pro american. It wasn't until 1979 that he was ousted from power. In his place an anti-american radical took his place and now we have all these problems. |
From the looks of things now ... Ike made a decent decision then ...
But this topic shows how serious topics are almost not possible here in the other anymore ... we used to be able to do these ... it's degenerated even more than I thought.
I disagree.
They had an elected representative and we imposed upon them our will. This created anti-american sentiment so when they finally got the chance they toppled the shaw, took over our embassy, made us look like idiots, and now they are extremely anti-american, developing nuclear weapons, and all the while sitting on one of the largest oil reserves.
How does an extremist become leader though? Through intimidation and threats, killings, etc.
He used threats and killed people to get to where he is now. He was once their leader, took a leave, and now he's back again.
Why? Everything favored the other fella to win the election but out of no where, he makes his comeback and wins heavily? How so?
Been a while back. Do you remember the particulars? My guess is that this Islam thing was going to happen no matter what. Our mistake was allowing that Ayatollah Khomeini to return ... Carter, I think set by while this guy held an election (kind of like Saddam's election - one candidate) and declared an Islamic republic ... when we allowed the exiled Shaw into this country for medical treatment, they took over our embassy ... and Carter broke weak - big time.
Some interesting background:
| Quote : Fundamentalist measures followed, and revolutionary committees patrolled the streets enforcing Islamic codes of behaviour and dress. Efforts were made to suppress Western influence, and many of the Western-educated elite fled the country. |
Source: The Iranian Revolution 1978-1979
They have their democratic government back now ... much like Germany elected Hitler in the 30's ...
Sometimes, people get the kind of government they deserve.
Right, but we fed that movement. The Shaw was pro-american and did a lot of western modernization. So when he was overthrown they pretty much used the anti-american sentiment to do the exact opposite.
What I'm not familiar with is how this current guy got in power. I would assume their elections today are much like those in the former Soviet Union.
I think it's hilarious (tragic really) that the current President of Iran, Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad, who we believe was on of the "criminals" who kidnapped our diplomaticlly protected embassy employees and foreign officers, is holding a conference on the Holocaust ... talking about a transparent attempt at historical revision.
It's like John Gotti holding a conference on law enforcement.
History has been rewritten many times before. It's not like he's the first to try.
history is based on who you ask. Civilizations don't recall their defeats...they just record victories. So whoever has power at the time writes the history books.
An now, another interesting artice on the topic:
| Quote : Iran stepped up its defiance of international pressure over its nuclear programme yesterday by warning of soaring oil prices if it is subjected to economic sanctions. As diplomats from the US, Europe, Russia, and China prepared to meet today in London to discuss referring Tehran to the UN security council, Iran's economy minister, Davoud Danesh-Jafari, said the country's position as the world's fourth-largest oil producer meant such action would have grave consequences ... "Any possible sanctions from the west could possibly, by disturbing Iran's political and economic situation, raise oil prices beyond levels the west expects," he told Iranian state radio.
|
Source: Iran issues stark warning on oil price
Robert Tait in Tehran
Monday January 16, 2006
The Guardian
These guys (actually just a handfull of extremeists, Mullahs and Imams) want nuclear power for "peaceful purposes" and they think it would be nice if Israel were annialated ...
Sure, after all, they did hold an election ...
| Quote : history is based on who you ask. Civilizations don't recall their defeats...they just record victories. So whoever has power at the time writes the history books. |
Perhaps, to a degree, in the short term ... but long term, the academicians (historians) try to get it right ... but since they can only collect a limited amount of "data points" and then tell their story through their own (conscious or sub-conscious) filters/biases ... we never quite get it right. Collect a few different observations and the whole conclusion could change.
It's this imperfect, filtered retelling of past events that make me totally distrust "history" ... it's just some authors POV.
-edit-
And this relates to Iran and their Holocaust Conference how?
I would tend to agree with you up until the last 100-200 years.
With photography coming out, more educated people, recording has become better.
I don't think it would be easy to rewrite history today as it was 200-300 years ago.
Case in point: Going to war with Iraq. Dems are saying it's a big screw up. Go back a couple years, there they are saying they're all for it. They're trying to rewrite it but history was written.. basically in Real Time.. not a week or 2 months after the accounts.
Don't mind about Jake, goop. He is again doing his eternal God sent mission to purify Other forum from heretics like you who dare to post short but unholy side notes about your self.
Let's get SERIOUS folks
I think he needs to get in touch with his 'touchy feely' side more often. lol.
what's wrong with making personal friends in the forum?
Nothing what so ever.
right.....I like to know that the ppl I'm talking with aren't machines....
the jury's out on Jake, although he seems like a very nice machine.
Great - good to see you had something constuctive to add ... not.
aww.....don't be mad Jakey....we're just teasing.
| Quote : I think he needs to get in touch with his 'touchy feely' side more often. lol.
|
I've got an idea ... you could start a qoop thread and meet all of your friends there ... perhaps, then you wouldn't feel the need to be so ubiquitous ...
are you saying I post too much? I don't make friends in threads cause ppl put on a front. I do it in PMs where ppl feel more comfortable discussing their true selves.
I wrote this earlier ... did you read the whole thread?
| Quote : But this topic shows how serious topics are almost not possible here in the other anymore ... we used to be able to do these ... it's degenerated even more than I thought. |
it would take me a lifetime to read everything that's been posted in every thread.....I just skip to the last part of the thread cause the topic always changes at the bottom of the thread anyway....
When was the last time you had a conversation that lasted 2 hours on the same subject start to finish with 4 people?
You probably didn't unless you were in a class somewhere. Conversations flow and transistion.
If you or I were to post on the original topic, no one would have a clue what it was about..
or it would become mundane and we'd start repeating ourselves.
| Quote : it would take me a lifetime to read everything that's been posted in every thread.....I just skip to the last part of the thread cause the topic always changes at the bottom of the thread anyway.... |
You make my point.
I never argued the fact that the thread changes at the end......I totally and whole-heartedly agree.
I'm just saying it's a natural evolution of thoughts and conversations. To try to squelch that evolution would be to stop the conversation at a certain point and then no new ideas can form.
I understand your wanting of a purist thread, but it wouldn't last long and it wouldn't have creative and flowing thoughts....
So what are your thoughts on Connie Rice against Hillary in the next presidential race?
| Quote : So what are your thoughts on Connie Rice against Hillary in the next presidential race? |
I'll let you know if they get nominated ... then we will get their take on how they might deal with Iran issue.
Ahh it's all up for consideration.. someone out there is thinking about it.
Hillary could be the first female president.. but Connie takes the cake being the first female and black president.
It was a topic that came up over the weekend at a company dinner. Thought I'd toss it out there.
how do you think it should be handled? what's your perspective?
what would happen if you wrote the candidates letters on what you think should be done and see what happens? You're very literate and I'm sure they'll take your words into consideration.
Stranger things have happened.
| Quote : So what are your thoughts on Connie Rice against Hillary in the next presidential race? |
And ... I think John McCain is a more likely Republican Candidate. He opined in the Guardian article I quoted above:
| Quote : The Republican John McCain told CBS: "Everything else has to be exhausted, but to say under no circumstances would we exercise a military option would be crazy." |
Ahh I'll pass on him.
Actually during Clinton's first campaign I started trying to figure out who the next people who would run. I really haven't seen any way of figuring it out aside from who talks the biggest talk.
McCain v Hillary ... got to go with McCain.
btw, Sean Penn was quoted as saying that he couldn't quit smoking while Bush was in office ... and I thought his plan was to leave the country, along with Redford, Moore, et al.
Bush makes me nervous on a good day, but I'm glad he won the last election......Kerry isn't as entertaining.
If you'll remember, Kerry was "for the war", before he "was against it" ...
And divorcing his sick 1st wife to marry the former Senator John Heinz's multi-millionaire widow make Kerry (besides being a fraud) Washington's gigolo number 1.
that's true....Kerry and Bush have a lot of the same ideals when it came down to it, but it's better to know the devil you do than the devil you don't.
I think JFK and Clinton are good runners up for being presidential gigolos. Both were good presidents, but had problems with their zippers.....
| Quote :
|
I think these days its less about availability of fact, and more about cconveying of opinion.
those who watch fox will undoubtedly have a vastly different opinion of the same situation compared to those who watch BBC.
sad but true.
Alltaken
| Quote : ...are good runners up for being presidential gigolos. Both were good presidents, but had problems with their zippers..... |
well those who get sex arn't busy thinking about blowing crap up, they are more concerned with rolling over.....
there was a case here of a violent mental patient.... all they needed to do to stop him damaging himself, people, or property was get him a hooker often enough to keep his testosterone levels down.
all illegal of course... but who cares.
i don't see why sex is more of a sin than violence. it baffles me, but it seems that way (one breast=R18, 500 deaths = PG).
Alltaken
| Quote : I think these days its less about availability of fact, and more about cconveying of opinion.
|
You said it perfectly.. don't let it go to your head though.
| Quote : ...are good runners up for being presidential gigolos. Both were good presidents, but had problems with their zippers..... |
well those who get sex arn't busy thinking about blowing crap up, they are more concerned with rolling over.....
there was a case here of a violent mental patient.... all they needed to do to stop him damaging himself, people, or property was get him a hooker often enough to keep his testosterone levels down.
all illegal of course... but who cares.
i don't see why sex is more of a sin than violence. it baffles me, but it seems that way (one breast=R18, 500 deaths = PG).
Alltaken
Your theory is flawed. Ever heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis?
that was all based on hearsay and assumptions....plus nothing ever happened with that.....I'm sure if Bush was in power you would have seen some action though.
| Quote : that was all based on hearsay and assumptions....plus nothing ever happened with that.....I'm sure if Bush was in power you would have seen some action though. |
Are you nuts ... it was based on confirmed U2 photo's, The Soviets confirmed it ... and we saw the missiles being removed. Hearsay - that's crazy.
Cuban Missile Crisis ended after a US blockade of Cuba.. they stopped some ships carrying the missiles. Said we'd sink them if they passed the blockade. That wasn't a joke at all.. heh
They're all nuts.
I don't know how she could have said such a misinformed thing.
qoop needs to stick to Belgian Milk Chocolate and stay out of serious discussions if that's what she knows.
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