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P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express

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Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 18, 2005 10:35:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

I have a P4C800-E Deluxe that's just about 4 or 5 months old. I built
a new sys with a P4 2.4ghz, 512MGB of PC3200 and twi SATA 120GB hdd's.

The only thing I didn't upgrade was my video card, an ATI 9000 Pro
128. After installing The Simpsons-Hit and Run. I found out my
vidcard isn't supported even with all the latest driver updates.
So... time to put the 9000 Pro on the shelf and move on. Which leads
me to PCI Express. This MB doesn't support it... does Asus make a MB
comparable to the P4C800-E Deluxe in terms of features with PCI
Express support? Any recommendations if they don't?

Thanks for any input.

SLD
January 18, 2005 4:59:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <da0qu0l516qcj6kv9av5m6bmfdo5j90bc6@4ax.com>, Slow Lazy Dog
<sld@woof.com> wrote:

> I have a P4C800-E Deluxe that's just about 4 or 5 months old. I built
> a new sys with a P4 2.4ghz, 512MGB of PC3200 and twi SATA 120GB hdd's.
>
> The only thing I didn't upgrade was my video card, an ATI 9000 Pro
> 128. After installing The Simpsons-Hit and Run. I found out my
> vidcard isn't supported even with all the latest driver updates.
> So... time to put the 9000 Pro on the shelf and move on. Which leads
> me to PCI Express. This MB doesn't support it... does Asus make a MB
> comparable to the P4C800-E Deluxe in terms of features with PCI
> Express support? Any recommendations if they don't?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> SLD

DirectX 8.1 hardware support and T&L.
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9000/radeon9000pro/in...

http://www.vugames.com/product.do?gamePlatformId=424
System Requirements
Minimum Requirements:
Windows 98/ME/2000/XP
PIII 700 MHZ or equivalent
192 MB of ram
4X speed CD or DVD drive
32 MB DirectX 8.1 hardware T&L video card (Geforce 2+)
1.2 GB HD space
DirectX 8.1 compatible sound card
Keyboard and Mouse

That means it should work.

Did you install:

1) Chipset drivers ? Something like INFINST.exe or the like.
In Device Manager, (system section?) you'll see

Intel(R) 82875P Processor to AGP Controller - 2579

That means the chipset driver got installed for the AGP
interface.

2) Catalyst driver. Get the latest from ATI.
It consists of a video card driver, and a control panel.
If, in your Display control, you see a "SmartGART" tab,
that means both the driver and control panel component
installed OK.

3) Microsoft DirectX. It is hard to say what minimum version
the game you want to play requires. While Microsoft thinks
people should always upgrade, my experience is, older games
will malfunction on you, if you use more modern versions,
so which version you upgrade to, is a personal decision. I
would think 8.1, as listed in the above requirements, would
be the minimum to take advantage of all hardware features.
The Catalyst installer may have something to say about this
as well.

Now, once all this stuff is installed, get a copy of Powerstrip:
http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/ps.shtm

The options menu item, from the Powerstrip taskbar popup, shows
what options are enabled or disabled. And, that will help tell
you whether everything really is enabled on your combined
hardware and software.

In my case, I have a system disk that started as win98, upgraded
to win98se, upgraded to win2k, moved through three hardware
upgrades, and no matter how much installing and uninstalling I
did, I could not get the AGP texture transfer working on my
ATI 9800Pro. A clean install of the OS fixed everything up fine.

*******

Your plan to upgrade to PCI Express will not change the mundane
realities above. There will still be drivers to install, and
software to fight with.

The P4GD1 will be the least cost upgrade for you, as you
get to reuse most of your hardware. It doesn't seem to be
a North American product, and may appear in other markets.
There is little mention of it that I can find, in Google.

http://www.asus.com.tw/products/mb/socket478/p4gd1/over...
http://www.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/sock478/p4gd1/e1675_p4g...

The P5AD2 family would be the most expensive way to go.
LGA775 processor socket (so your S478 processor won't fit).
DDR2 memory. See the top items on the list on this page:

http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/mbindex.htm

Have a look through the other P5xxx products, and you may
find the right compromise set of technologies for your budget
and plans.

Stuffing a fat-ass AGP card in your current computer will
also fix this problem (i.e. the need to upgrade could be
satisfied quite well, using the P4C800-E, so at least for
the moment, you have quite a good base to build on. You
can stuff a 3.4GHz socket 478 Prescott processor in there
if you want.) There are AGP cards with very similar core
and memory clocks at the moment, to the PCI Express cards,
and the AGP cards tend to be more available to buy, as
compared to high end PCI Express cards.

Some AGP cards (newegg approximated pricing):
ATI X800 Pro core=475MHz memory=900MHz ~$400
ATI X800 XT core=520MHz memory=1120MHz ~$500
Nvidia 6800 Ultra core=400Mhz memory=1100MHz ~$500

These will add a fair load to your power supply, so you may
need to upgrade that too.

In case you were thinking PCI Express has something to do
with increased performance, it doesn't. It just introduces
one more incompatible interface. The PCI Express standard
was created, to make hub interfaces for expansion cards
possible. The AGP slot didn't need this "improvement",
as AGP 3.0 is already a point-to-point parallel terminated
hardware interface, and changing it to PCI Express does
nothing for the end user. (And SLI is a crock... In that
it doesn't accelerate all game titles. A computer with
SLI dumps ~300W of heat into the room.)

Have fun,
Paul
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 19, 2005 7:48:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

With such a mobo, why would you want to go out and buy a new mobo, new
memory (possible requirement of new mobo), and new graphics card, when all
you really need to do is upgrade the graphics card. This board is one of
the more o/c friendly boards out there. The system you have should have no
probs with a gfx upgrade.
Silvertip
"Slow Lazy Dog" <sld@woof.com> wrote in message
news:D a0qu0l516qcj6kv9av5m6bmfdo5j90bc6@4ax.com...
>
> I have a P4C800-E Deluxe that's just about 4 or 5 months old. I built
> a new sys with a P4 2.4ghz, 512MGB of PC3200 and twi SATA 120GB hdd's.
>
> The only thing I didn't upgrade was my video card, an ATI 9000 Pro
> 128. After installing The Simpsons-Hit and Run. I found out my
> vidcard isn't supported even with all the latest driver updates.
> So... time to put the 9000 Pro on the shelf and move on. Which leads
> me to PCI Express. This MB doesn't support it... does Asus make a MB
> comparable to the P4C800-E Deluxe in terms of features with PCI
> Express support? Any recommendations if they don't?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> SLD
Related resources
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 19, 2005 8:34:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Good info Paul. So PCI is a waste?
"Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
news:nospam-1801051400000001@192.168.1.177...
> In article <da0qu0l516qcj6kv9av5m6bmfdo5j90bc6@4ax.com>, Slow Lazy Dog
> <sld@woof.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a P4C800-E Deluxe that's just about 4 or 5 months old. I built
>> a new sys with a P4 2.4ghz, 512MGB of PC3200 and twi SATA 120GB hdd's.
>>
>> The only thing I didn't upgrade was my video card, an ATI 9000 Pro
>> 128. After installing The Simpsons-Hit and Run. I found out my
>> vidcard isn't supported even with all the latest driver updates.
>> So... time to put the 9000 Pro on the shelf and move on. Which leads
>> me to PCI Express. This MB doesn't support it... does Asus make a MB
>> comparable to the P4C800-E Deluxe in terms of features with PCI
>> Express support? Any recommendations if they don't?
>>
>> Thanks for any input.
>>
>> SLD
>
> DirectX 8.1 hardware support and T&L.
> http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9000/radeon9000pro/in...
>
> http://www.vugames.com/product.do?gamePlatformId=424
> System Requirements
> Minimum Requirements:
> Windows 98/ME/2000/XP
> PIII 700 MHZ or equivalent
> 192 MB of ram
> 4X speed CD or DVD drive
> 32 MB DirectX 8.1 hardware T&L video card (Geforce 2+)
> 1.2 GB HD space
> DirectX 8.1 compatible sound card
> Keyboard and Mouse
>
> That means it should work.
>
> Did you install:
>
> 1) Chipset drivers ? Something like INFINST.exe or the like.
> In Device Manager, (system section?) you'll see
>
> Intel(R) 82875P Processor to AGP Controller - 2579
>
> That means the chipset driver got installed for the AGP
> interface.
>
> 2) Catalyst driver. Get the latest from ATI.
> It consists of a video card driver, and a control panel.
> If, in your Display control, you see a "SmartGART" tab,
> that means both the driver and control panel component
> installed OK.
>
> 3) Microsoft DirectX. It is hard to say what minimum version
> the game you want to play requires. While Microsoft thinks
> people should always upgrade, my experience is, older games
> will malfunction on you, if you use more modern versions,
> so which version you upgrade to, is a personal decision. I
> would think 8.1, as listed in the above requirements, would
> be the minimum to take advantage of all hardware features.
> The Catalyst installer may have something to say about this
> as well.
>
> Now, once all this stuff is installed, get a copy of Powerstrip:
> http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/ps.shtm
>
> The options menu item, from the Powerstrip taskbar popup, shows
> what options are enabled or disabled. And, that will help tell
> you whether everything really is enabled on your combined
> hardware and software.
>
> In my case, I have a system disk that started as win98, upgraded
> to win98se, upgraded to win2k, moved through three hardware
> upgrades, and no matter how much installing and uninstalling I
> did, I could not get the AGP texture transfer working on my
> ATI 9800Pro. A clean install of the OS fixed everything up fine.
>
> *******
>
> Your plan to upgrade to PCI Express will not change the mundane
> realities above. There will still be drivers to install, and
> software to fight with.
>
> The P4GD1 will be the least cost upgrade for you, as you
> get to reuse most of your hardware. It doesn't seem to be
> a North American product, and may appear in other markets.
> There is little mention of it that I can find, in Google.
>
> http://www.asus.com.tw/products/mb/socket478/p4gd1/over...
> http://www.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/sock478/p4gd1/e1675_p4g...
>
> The P5AD2 family would be the most expensive way to go.
> LGA775 processor socket (so your S478 processor won't fit).
> DDR2 memory. See the top items on the list on this page:
>
> http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/mbindex.htm
>
> Have a look through the other P5xxx products, and you may
> find the right compromise set of technologies for your budget
> and plans.
>
> Stuffing a fat-ass AGP card in your current computer will
> also fix this problem (i.e. the need to upgrade could be
> satisfied quite well, using the P4C800-E, so at least for
> the moment, you have quite a good base to build on. You
> can stuff a 3.4GHz socket 478 Prescott processor in there
> if you want.) There are AGP cards with very similar core
> and memory clocks at the moment, to the PCI Express cards,
> and the AGP cards tend to be more available to buy, as
> compared to high end PCI Express cards.
>
> Some AGP cards (newegg approximated pricing):
> ATI X800 Pro core=475MHz memory=900MHz ~$400
> ATI X800 XT core=520MHz memory=1120MHz ~$500
> Nvidia 6800 Ultra core=400Mhz memory=1100MHz ~$500
>
> These will add a fair load to your power supply, so you may
> need to upgrade that too.
>
> In case you were thinking PCI Express has something to do
> with increased performance, it doesn't. It just introduces
> one more incompatible interface. The PCI Express standard
> was created, to make hub interfaces for expansion cards
> possible. The AGP slot didn't need this "improvement",
> as AGP 3.0 is already a point-to-point parallel terminated
> hardware interface, and changing it to PCI Express does
> nothing for the end user. (And SLI is a crock... In that
> it doesn't accelerate all game titles. A computer with
> SLI dumps ~300W of heat into the room.)
>
> Have fun,
> Paul
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 20, 2005 1:14:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
<mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.

A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.

Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:

- MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
- BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
- PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.

hth ;-)

/daytripper
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 21, 2005 12:11:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

daytripper wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
> <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>
>
> A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>
> Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>
> - MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
> - BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
> - PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>

And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need. Just
because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
everyone is going to buy them. There will always be those who buy the
"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
fed them by the marketers.
Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
current goal of everyone? It is far better than IDE, it is open, it is
available from multiple vendors. So why is SATA (an inferior product)
now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?


> hth ;-)
>
> /daytripper
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 21, 2005 12:11:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:11:07 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
<mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>daytripper wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>> <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>>
>>
>> A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>>
>> Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>>
>> - MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
>> - BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
>> - PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>>
>
>And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
>etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need.

Geeze, you can lead a guy to History but he just won't think for himself.
Fine.

Since the clarion call of Open Standards = Cheaper TCO hit with a vengeance in
the '90s, proprietary solutions were doomed and "industry standard" took over.

If the effect isn't crystal clear to you, spend a few moments contemplating
the train-wreck that was the Apple Computers of the world (and the Primes, the
DECs, the Wangs, the Data Generals, etc, etc...)
What killed them? Open standards and the resulting commoditization of
computing platforms.

>Just because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
>everyone is going to buy them.

Lousy analogy, once again.
The issue is not what you buy. The issue is what is for sale. Take a look
around at what's left of proprietary solutions in the desktop computer
business and the low-end server business. See much? No?

>There will always be those who buy the
>"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
>fed them by the marketers.

And? Pray tell, WTF does that have to do with viability of proprietary
solutions in cost-sensitive applications today?

>Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
>current goal of everyone?

In *your* space, U320 has nothing to offer. Do you have the first clue why?

>It is far better than IDE,

In a single-user desktop environment, no it doesn't.
And that is yet another popular misconception you fell for. Nice.

>it is open

But importantly, so are its competitors.

>it is available from multiple vendors.

But importantly, at a severe price/capacity premium vs competing technologies
which offer dramatically higher price/performance on your desktop.

You getting this yet?

>So why is SATA (an inferior product)

Um....OK, let's play: what makes SATA an "inferior product" in your mind?
Fair warning: if you blow chunks about specific SATA drives I'll be happy to
kick you square in the nuts for your trouble. Don't bore me.

>now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?

See above. And know this: SATA will not only own the desktop for awhile, it
owns the low-end server space already, and is making major gains in the
mid-range space.

Why? Simple: TCO and price/performance of SATA drives are better than the
closest comparable SCSI lines, and you can raid-up whatever bandwidth you
desire, cheaply. Game over, bub.

Listen, you Luddites can rail against the wind all you want, but you won't
change the fact The Future Happens, old technology is replaced with new.
PCI Express is the irresistible force that will wipe the future clean of AGP.

So you took a wrong turn in Albuquerque. fyi, the path you should have
followed is labeled "The Commoditization of Computing".

hth ;-)

/daytripper
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 21, 2005 3:09:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

>Subject: Re: P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express
>From: "Michael W. Ryder" mwryder@_worldnet.att.net
>Date: 1/20/2005 4:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <L7VHd.7310$8u5.289@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>daytripper wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>> <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>>
>>
>> A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>>
>> Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>>
>> - MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
>> - BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
>> - PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>>
>
>And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
>etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need. Just
>because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
>everyone is going to buy them. There will always be those who buy the
>"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
>fed them by the marketers.
>Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
>current goal of everyone? It is far better than IDE, it is open, it is
>available from multiple vendors. So why is SATA (an inferior product)
>now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?
>
>
>> hth ;-)
>>
>> /daytripper
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Because it's cheaper!
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 21, 2005 3:18:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

daytripper wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 21:11:07 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
> <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>daytripper wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>>><mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>>>
>>>
>>>A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>>>
>>>Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>>>
>>>- MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
>>>- BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
>>>- PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>>>
>>
>>And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
>>etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need.
>
>
> Geeze, you can lead a guy to History but he just won't think for himself.
> Fine.
>
> Since the clarion call of Open Standards = Cheaper TCO hit with a vengeance in
> the '90s, proprietary solutions were doomed and "industry standard" took over.
>
> If the effect isn't crystal clear to you, spend a few moments contemplating
> the train-wreck that was the Apple Computers of the world (and the Primes, the
> DECs, the Wangs, the Data Generals, etc, etc...)
> What killed them? Open standards and the resulting commoditization of
> computing platforms.
>
>
ROTFLMAO


>>Just because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
>>everyone is going to buy them.
>
>
> Lousy analogy, once again.
> The issue is not what you buy. The issue is what is for sale. Take a look
> around at what's left of proprietary solutions in the desktop computer
> business and the low-end server business. See much? No?
>
>
Take a look at Dell, HP, Compaq, .... Try upgrading any of them. They
are not truly open. I owned a PC1 and had no problems upgrading it. I
can't say the same for the Dells, E-machines, etc. that I have been
asked to fix. Proprietary is still out there. Also if you look at the
RS-6000 line of IBM it is doing very well even at the low end of the market.


>>There will always be those who buy the
>>"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
>>fed them by the marketers.
>
>
> And? Pray tell, WTF does that have to do with viability of proprietary
> solutions in cost-sensitive applications today?
>
>
How many copies of Microsoft XP, Office, etc. get sold every day even
though there are "open" replacements available. People will buy what
they know. Just like at one time the saying was "No one got fired for
buying IBM".


>>Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
>>current goal of everyone?
>
>
> In *your* space, U320 has nothing to offer. Do you have the first clue why?
>
>
SCSI has many advantages over IDE and SATA. I have had SCSI setups for
the desktop and preferred them but try and buy a replacement for the
P2B-S today without buying a server. The only disadvantage of SCSI is
that the cost was not brought down because the volume was never that of
IDE. Much like your precious PCI-E, it is an expensive alternative to a
commodity solution. Why should anyone spend double to replace a working
card just because it is not the "newest and greatest. I just replaced
my motherboard and made sure that I did NOT get a PCI-E board. I did not
want to have to buy another $400 video card, etc. PCI-E has nothing
right now that is of benefit to most users.



>>It is far better than IDE,
>
>
> In a single-user desktop environment, no it doesn't.
> And that is yet another popular misconception you fell for. Nice.
>
>
BULLSHIT!!!


>>it is open
>
>
> But importantly, so are its competitors.
>
>
>>it is available from multiple vendors.
>
>
> But importantly, at a severe price/capacity premium vs competing technologies
> which offer dramatically higher price/performance on your desktop.
>
> You getting this yet?
>
>
>>So why is SATA (an inferior product)
>
>
> Um....OK, let's play: what makes SATA an "inferior product" in your mind?
> Fair warning: if you blow chunks about specific SATA drives I'll be happy to
> kick you square in the nuts for your trouble. Don't bore me.
>
>
>>now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?
>
>
> See above. And know this: SATA will not only own the desktop for awhile, it
> owns the low-end server space already, and is making major gains in the
> mid-range space.
>
> Why? Simple: TCO and price/performance of SATA drives are better than the
> closest comparable SCSI lines, and you can raid-up whatever bandwidth you
> desire, cheaply. Game over, bub.
>
> Listen, you Luddites can rail against the wind all you want, but you won't
> change the fact The Future Happens, old technology is replaced with new.
> PCI Express is the irresistible force that will wipe the future clean of AGP.
>
> So you took a wrong turn in Albuquerque. fyi, the path you should have
> followed is labeled "The Commoditization of Computing".
>
> hth ;-)
>
> /daytripper
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 21, 2005 4:02:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

LeeBos wrote:

>>Subject: Re: P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express
>>From: "Michael W. Ryder" mwryder@_worldnet.att.net
>>Date: 1/20/2005 4:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <L7VHd.7310$8u5.289@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>>
>>daytripper wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>>><mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>>>
>>>
>>>A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>>>
>>>Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>>>
>>>- MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
>>>- BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
>>>- PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>>>
>>
>>And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
>>etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need. Just
>>because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
>>everyone is going to buy them. There will always be those who buy the
>>"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
>>fed them by the marketers.
>>Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
>>current goal of everyone? It is far better than IDE, it is open, it is
>>available from multiple vendors. So why is SATA (an inferior product)
>>now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?
>>
>>
>>
>>>hth ;-)
>>>
>>>/daytripper
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Because it's cheaper!
>
And PCI/AGP is cheaper and more available than PCI-E! So why is
everyone so enamored with PCI-E? Just because Intel says that PCI-E is
the directions du jour does not mean we all have to jump off a cliff.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 21, 2005 3:48:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

>Subject: Re: P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express
>From: "Michael W. Ryder" mwryder@_worldnet.att.net
>Date: 1/20/2005 8:02 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <MwYHd.7893$8u5.6246@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>LeeBos wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express
>>>From: "Michael W. Ryder" mwryder@_worldnet.att.net
>>>Date: 1/20/2005 4:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>>Message-id: <L7VHd.7310$8u5.289@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>>>
>>>daytripper wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>>>><mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>>>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>>>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>>>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>>>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>>>>
>>>>Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>>>>
>>>>- MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
>>>>- BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
>>>>- PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>>>>
>>>
>>>And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
>>>etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need. Just
>>>because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
>>>everyone is going to buy them. There will always be those who buy the
>>>"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
>>>fed them by the marketers.
>>>Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
>>>current goal of everyone? It is far better than IDE, it is open, it is
>>>available from multiple vendors. So why is SATA (an inferior product)
>>>now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>hth ;-)
>>>>
>>>>/daytripper
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Because it's cheaper!
>>
>And PCI/AGP is cheaper and more available than PCI-E! So why is
>everyone so enamored with PCI-E? Just because Intel says that PCI-E is
>the directions du jour does not mean we all have to jump off a cliff.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
What I ment was that SATA is cheaper than SCSI.

I have both a P4C800E and a P5AD2E and can't see the diff between AGP and
PCI-E, except that the PCI-E was more expensive.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
January 22, 2005 2:03:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

LeeBos wrote:

>>Subject: Re: P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express
>>From: "Michael W. Ryder" mwryder@_worldnet.att.net
>>Date: 1/20/2005 8:02 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <MwYHd.7893$8u5.6246@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>>
>>LeeBos wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: P4C800-E Deluxe and PCI Express
>>>>From: "Michael W. Ryder" mwryder@_worldnet.att.net
>>>>Date: 1/20/2005 4:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: <L7VHd.7310$8u5.289@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>>>>
>>>>daytripper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:57 GMT, "Michael W. Ryder"
>>>>><mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I seem to recall IBM saying that MicroChannel Architecture was the best
>>>>>>thing to ever happen to PCs. Where is it now? Just because something
>>>>>>is "better" does not mean that the general public will accept it. Look
>>>>>>at Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was supposedly the better product but the
>>>>>>people bought the VHS standard and Betamax died.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A classic example of mis-applied logic. Nice work.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since you went and waded in above your head, here's the clue you lack:
>>>>>
>>>>>- MCA was a PROPRIETARY interconnect architecture.
>>>>>- BetaMax was a PROPRIETARY technology package.
>>>>>- PCI Express is NOT PROPRIETARY, it's an OPEN STANDARD.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>And what does proprietary (i.e. Microsoft) versus open (Linux, BSD,
>>>>etc.) have to do with what the people will buy, or even need. Just
>>>>because there are cars out there that can do 200 mph does not mean that
>>>>everyone is going to buy them. There will always be those who buy the
>>>>"newest and greatest" just because it is or because they bought the line
>>>>fed them by the marketers.
>>>>Since you are so stuck on open standards how come SCSI-320 is not the
>>>>current goal of everyone? It is far better than IDE, it is open, it is
>>>>available from multiple vendors. So why is SATA (an inferior product)
>>>>now being offered to everyone but not SCSI?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>hth ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>/daytripper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Because it's cheaper!
>>>
>>
>>And PCI/AGP is cheaper and more available than PCI-E! So why is
>>everyone so enamored with PCI-E? Just because Intel says that PCI-E is
>>the directions du jour does not mean we all have to jump off a cliff.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> What I ment was that SATA is cheaper than SCSI.
>
> I have both a P4C800E and a P5AD2E and can't see the diff between AGP and
> PCI-E, except that the PCI-E was more expensive.
>
>
My point was that SCSI is superior to IDE and SATA but no one is moving
all their new models to SCSI. SATA and IDE are more popular because
they do what people want them to do and are cheaper than the
alternatives. If only the best solution was sold we would all be using
Fibre Channel SCSI.
I just don't see why anyone should have to pay way too much to replace
working equipment for a new slot that offers NO benefit to the user.
!