Motherboard Power Requirements

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Hello everyone,

At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
better and be more flexible.

The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.

Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:

P5GD1-VM
P4GE-MX
P4R800-VM
P4P800-VM
P4BP-MX
P4S800-MX
P4SP-MX
P4SP-MX SE
P4V533-MX
P4VP-MX
A7N8X-VM
A7N8X-VM/400
P5S800-VM
K8S-MX

I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
around one ot them would require.

The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
supply can drive.

There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.

So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
speeds - no overclocking)

I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.

Many thanks in advance,
-arifi
13 answers Last reply
More about motherboard power requirements
  1. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    Ah, I forgot to mentione - an AMD solution is also perfectly acceptable
    if the Power/Wattage ratio is higher there.

    Cheers,
    -arifi
  2. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    In article <1107996840.065613.250950@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
    "arifi" <arifi@turk.net> wrote:

    > Hello everyone,
    >
    > At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    > those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
    > carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    > buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    > better and be more flexible.
    >
    > The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    > Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    > microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
    > this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >
    > Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
    > their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >
    > P5GD1-VM
    > P4GE-MX
    > P4R800-VM
    > P4P800-VM
    > P4BP-MX
    > P4S800-MX
    > P4SP-MX
    > P4SP-MX SE
    > P4V533-MX
    > P4VP-MX
    > A7N8X-VM
    > A7N8X-VM/400
    > P5S800-VM
    > K8S-MX
    >
    > I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
    > conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
    > around one ot them would require.
    >
    > The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
    > SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
    > attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
    > computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
    > but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
    > supply can drive.
    >
    > There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    > looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
    > the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    >
    > So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    > motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
    > can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    > speeds - no overclocking)
    >
    > I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    >
    > Many thanks in advance,
    > -arifi

    For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
    web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
    and there is a power estimate section.

    http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm

    This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
    These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
    I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
    non-CPU rails will be drawing.
    ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/ag/C6860002.pdf

    Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
    Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A

    Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
    spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
    draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
    A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
    (see page 74 table 5-1).

    ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pentium4/datashts/30235101.pdf

    The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
    considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
    MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
    +12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
    (A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W ==> 6.45A)

    Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
    from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
    a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:

    Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
    DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
    Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
    Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
    CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
    Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
    (Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)

    This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
    http://takaman.jp/D/?english

    Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
    while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
    full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
    system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
    about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
    spins up.)

    The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
    as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
    are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
    current might be representative of a seek operation.

    You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
    easy.

    http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/

    There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
    small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
    if you draw decent power from them.

    http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/index_hp_1u.htm

    As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
    saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
    with them, to find the right one.

    As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
    exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
    can draw 5V@5.5A 12V@0.9A, but when the video card is
    working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
    at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
    complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
    card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
    drive and one CD on these systems.

    These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
    A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
    you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
    With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.

    (Processor current comes from +5V...)
    A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)

    (Processor current comes from +12V...)
    P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)

    The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
    manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
    with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
    +3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
    motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
    it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.

    In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
    to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
    +12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
    2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
    how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
    supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
    or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.

    As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
    Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
    work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
    works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
    were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
    choice.

    http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30430.pdf

    HTH,
    Paul
  3. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
    news:nospam-1002050806470001@192.168.1.177...
    > In article <1107996840.065613.250950@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
    > "arifi" <arifi@turk.net> wrote:
    >
    >> Hello everyone,
    >>
    >> At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    >> those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
    >> carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    >> buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    >> better and be more flexible.
    >>
    >> The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    >> Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    >> microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
    >> this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >>
    >> Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
    >> their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >>
    >> P5GD1-VM
    >> P4GE-MX
    >> P4R800-VM
    >> P4P800-VM
    >> P4BP-MX
    >> P4S800-MX
    >> P4SP-MX
    >> P4SP-MX SE
    >> P4V533-MX
    >> P4VP-MX
    >> A7N8X-VM
    >> A7N8X-VM/400
    >> P5S800-VM
    >> K8S-MX
    >>
    >> I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
    >> conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
    >> around one ot them would require.
    >>
    >> The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
    >> SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
    >> attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
    >> computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
    >> but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
    >> supply can drive.
    >>
    >> There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    >> looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
    >> the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    >>
    >> So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    >> motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
    >> can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    >> speeds - no overclocking)
    >>
    >> I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    >>
    >> Many thanks in advance,
    >> -arifi
    >
    > For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
    > web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
    > and there is a power estimate section.
    >
    > http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm
    >
    > This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
    > These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
    > I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
    > non-CPU rails will be drawing.
    > ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/ag/C6860002.pdf
    >
    > Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    > Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
    > Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A
    >
    > Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
    > spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
    > draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
    > A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
    > (see page 74 table 5-1).
    >
    > ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pentium4/datashts/30235101.pdf
    >
    > The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
    > considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
    > MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
    > +12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
    > (A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W ==> 6.45A)
    >
    > Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
    > from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
    > a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:
    >
    > Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    > Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
    > DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
    > Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
    > Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
    > CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
    > Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
    > (Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)
    >
    > This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
    > http://takaman.jp/D/?english
    >
    > Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
    > while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
    > full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
    > system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
    > about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
    > spins up.)
    >
    > The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
    > as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
    > are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
    > current might be representative of a seek operation.
    >
    > You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
    > easy.
    >
    > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/
    >
    > There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
    > small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
    > if you draw decent power from them.
    >
    > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/index_hp_1u.htm
    >
    > As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
    > saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
    > with them, to find the right one.
    >
    > As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
    > exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
    > can draw 5V@5.5A 12V@0.9A, but when the video card is
    > working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
    > at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
    > complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
    > card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
    > drive and one CD on these systems.
    >
    > These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
    > A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
    > you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
    > With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.
    >
    > (Processor current comes from +5V...)
    > A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    > 3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)
    >
    > (Processor current comes from +12V...)
    > P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    > 3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)
    >
    > The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
    > manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
    > with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
    > +3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
    > motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
    > it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.
    >
    > In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
    > to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
    > +12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
    > 2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
    > how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
    > supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
    > or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.
    >
    > As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
    > Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
    > work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
    > works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
    > were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
    > choice.
    >
    > http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30430.pdf
    >
    > HTH,
    > Paul


    Dear Paul,

    Hello again, and of course MANY MANY THANKS for the (once again) very much
    detailed information.

    After reading your post, the case I mentioned actually arrived and I had the
    chance to look at the actual label on the power supply: First of all, the
    PSU has a label stating that it is a 350W PSU and not a 230W as we were told
    by the supplier. HOWEVER, the ratings on the label are as follows:

    -----------------------------------------------
    +3.3V | +5V | +12V | -5V | -12V | +5VSB
    7A | 13A | 6A | 0.5A | 0.8A | 1A
    -----------------------------------------------
    75W Max |-------| 9.6 W Max |-------
    -----------------------------------------------
    3 5 0 W
    -----------------------------------------------

    Now, here is how I interpret the label:

    1. The 75W Max. under the +3.3V & +5V columns probably means that the
    combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 75Watts, while the
    +3.3V line can carry 3.3x7=23.1W and the +5V line 5x13=65W.

    2. The +12V line is capable of producing 12x6=72W.

    3. The 9.6W Max. under the -5V & -12V columns probably means that the
    combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 9.6Watts, while
    the -5V line can carry 5x0.5=2.5W and the -12V line 12x0.8=9.6W. Prescott
    based 2.8Ghz

    4. The +5VSB line is capable of producing 5x1=5W. (By the way, what does VSB
    mean?)

    5. Taking into account the 75W and 9.6W Maximums, and adding the +12V and
    +5VSB powers, I calculate the actual total power to be 75 + 9.6 + (72) + (5)
    = 161.6W YUCK !!! Is this calculation correct?? Where is the claimed 350W ??

    You mention that the P4 and Athlon64 get their CPU power from the +12V line,
    while the AthlonXP from the +5V line. The P42.8Prescott has a TDP of 84Watts
    (your post) and the Athlon64 3000+ a Max. TDP of 89Watts (Athlon64 Power and
    Thermal Data Sheet.)

    Does that now mean that I cannot run either of these CPUs using this PSU or
    am I missing something?

    Under what conditions are the maximum Power levels reached? Typical loading
    of CPU on the Demo system will be a sequence like [Short/Intermediate
    Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short/Intermediate
    Peak] - [Longer Idle] ...

    Here comes where I get confused again. In your post you mention:

    >(Processor current comes from +5V...)
    >A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    >3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)

    >(Processor current comes from +12V...)
    >P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    >3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)

    Here you calculate the total Wattage by collecting values from all rails
    (3.3, 5, 12). Then probably I should not expect all the CPU power from the
    12V rail alone in the Athlon64 and Prescott cases... If so, I could still
    use and Athlon64 or Prescott... But in your table you had put the 7.8A for
    the CPU completely on the 12V line of the Prescott based 2.8Ghz system...Or
    ??

    Confused... I hope I am not asking the obvious.

    Many Thanks,
    Cheers,
    -arifi
  4. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    In article <371kmgF58bkr0U1@individual.net>, "Arifi Koseoglu"
    <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

    > "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
    > news:nospam-1002050806470001@192.168.1.177...
    > > In article <1107996840.065613.250950@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
    > > "arifi" <arifi@turk.net> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Hello everyone,
    > >>
    > >> At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    > >> those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
    > >> carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    > >> buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    > >> better and be more flexible.
    > >>
    > >> The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    > >> Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    > >> microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom for
    > >> this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    > >>
    > >> Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx" on
    > >> their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    > >>
    > >> P5GD1-VM
    > >> P4GE-MX
    > >> P4R800-VM
    > >> P4P800-VM
    > >> P4BP-MX
    > >> P4S800-MX
    > >> P4SP-MX
    > >> P4SP-MX SE
    > >> P4V533-MX
    > >> P4VP-MX
    > >> A7N8X-VM
    > >> A7N8X-VM/400
    > >> P5S800-VM
    > >> K8S-MX
    > >>
    > >> I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to find
    > >> conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system built
    > >> around one ot them would require.
    > >>
    > >> The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU, 1x
    > >> SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
    > >> attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
    > >> computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
    > >> but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the power
    > >> supply can drive.
    > >>
    > >> There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    > >> looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above where
    > >> the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    > >>
    > >> So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    > >> motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
    > >> can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    > >> speeds - no overclocking)
    > >>
    > >> I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    > >>
    > >> Many thanks in advance,
    > >> -arifi
    > >
    > > For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
    > > web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
    > > and there is a power estimate section.
    > >
    > > http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm
    > >
    > > This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
    > > These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
    > > I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
    > > non-CPU rails will be drawing.
    > > ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/ag/C6860002.pdf
    > >
    > > Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    > > Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
    > > Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A
    > >
    > > Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
    > > spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
    > > draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
    > > A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
    > > (see page 74 table 5-1).
    > >
    > > ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pentium4/datashts/30235101.pdf
    > >
    > > The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
    > > considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
    > > MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
    > > +12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
    > > (A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W ==> 6.45A)
    > >
    > > Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
    > > from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
    > > a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:
    > >
    > > Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    > > Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
    > > DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
    > > Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
    > > Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
    > > CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
    > > Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
    > > (Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)
    > >
    > > This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
    > > http://takaman.jp/D/?english
    > >
    > > Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
    > > while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
    > > full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
    > > system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
    > > about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
    > > spins up.)
    > >
    > > The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
    > > as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
    > > are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
    > > current might be representative of a seek operation.
    > >
    > > You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
    > > easy.
    > >
    > > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/
    > >
    > > There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
    > > small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
    > > if you draw decent power from them.
    > >
    > >
    http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/index_hp_1u.htm
    > >
    > > As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
    > > saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
    > > with them, to find the right one.
    > >
    > > As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
    > > exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
    > > can draw 5V@5.5A 12V@0.9A, but when the video card is
    > > working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
    > > at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
    > > complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
    > > card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
    > > drive and one CD on these systems.
    > >
    > > These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
    > > A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
    > > you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
    > > With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.
    > >
    > > (Processor current comes from +5V...)
    > > A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    > > 3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)
    > >
    > > (Processor current comes from +12V...)
    > > P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    > > 3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)
    > >
    > > The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
    > > manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
    > > with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
    > > +3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
    > > motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
    > > it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.
    > >
    > > In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
    > > to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
    > > +12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
    > > 2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
    > > how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
    > > supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
    > > or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.
    > >
    > > As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
    > > Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
    > > work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
    > > works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
    > > were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
    > > choice.
    > >
    > >
    http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30430.pdf
    > >
    > > HTH,
    > > Paul
    >
    >
    > Dear Paul,
    >
    > Hello again, and of course MANY MANY THANKS for the (once again) very much
    > detailed information.
    >
    > After reading your post, the case I mentioned actually arrived and I had the
    > chance to look at the actual label on the power supply: First of all, the
    > PSU has a label stating that it is a 350W PSU and not a 230W as we were told
    > by the supplier. HOWEVER, the ratings on the label are as follows:
    >
    > -----------------------------------------------
    > +3.3V | +5V | +12V | -5V | -12V | +5VSB
    > 7A | 13A | 6A | 0.5A | 0.8A | 1A
    > -----------------------------------------------
    > 75W Max |-------| 9.6 W Max |-------
    > -----------------------------------------------
    > 3 5 0 W
    > -----------------------------------------------
    >
    > Now, here is how I interpret the label:
    >
    > 1. The 75W Max. under the +3.3V & +5V columns probably means that the
    > combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 75Watts, while the
    > +3.3V line can carry 3.3x7=23.1W and the +5V line 5x13=65W.
    >
    > 2. The +12V line is capable of producing 12x6=72W.
    >
    > 3. The 9.6W Max. under the -5V & -12V columns probably means that the
    > combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 9.6Watts, while
    > the -5V line can carry 5x0.5=2.5W and the -12V line 12x0.8=9.6W. Prescott
    > based 2.8Ghz
    >
    > 4. The +5VSB line is capable of producing 5x1=5W. (By the way, what does VSB
    > mean?)
    >
    > 5. Taking into account the 75W and 9.6W Maximums, and adding the +12V and
    > +5VSB powers, I calculate the actual total power to be 75 + 9.6 + (72) + (5)
    > = 161.6W YUCK !!! Is this calculation correct?? Where is the claimed 350W ??
    >
    > You mention that the P4 and Athlon64 get their CPU power from the +12V line,
    > while the AthlonXP from the +5V line. The P42.8Prescott has a TDP of 84Watts
    > (your post) and the Athlon64 3000+ a Max. TDP of 89Watts (Athlon64 Power and
    > Thermal Data Sheet.)
    >
    > Does that now mean that I cannot run either of these CPUs using this PSU or
    > am I missing something?
    >
    > Under what conditions are the maximum Power levels reached? Typical loading
    > of CPU on the Demo system will be a sequence like [Short/Intermediate
    > Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short/Intermediate
    > Peak] - [Longer Idle] ...
    >
    > Here comes where I get confused again. In your post you mention:
    >
    > >(Processor current comes from +5V...)
    > >A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    > >3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)
    >
    > >(Processor current comes from +12V...)
    > >P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    > >3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)
    >
    > Here you calculate the total Wattage by collecting values from all rails
    > (3.3, 5, 12). Then probably I should not expect all the CPU power from the
    > 12V rail alone in the Athlon64 and Prescott cases... If so, I could still
    > use and Athlon64 or Prescott... But in your table you had put the 7.8A for
    > the CPU completely on the 12V line of the Prescott based 2.8Ghz system...Or
    > ??
    >
    > Confused... I hope I am not asking the obvious.
    >
    > Many Thanks,
    > Cheers,
    > -arifi

    That has got to be the worst power supply I've ever seen.

    Are you sure that isn't the *minimum* load ? Some supplies
    have two sets of number, some minimum numbers and some
    maximum numbers. The power supply will not regulate to
    within 5% of nominal output voltage, unless the minimum
    load is applied.

    Is it possible for you to give more info about the
    case and power supply you bought ? Do you have a
    URL for a website, with details about the product,
    and maybe a picture of the label on the power supply ?

    I think you understand the basic principles. The power
    supply has limits for the maximum current that can
    come from any individual output, and there are also
    limits for certain groups of outputs. The group limits
    are caused by using a multi-winding transformer in the
    output. If two windings are supplying current, the thermal
    load on the transformer will bear some relationship to that
    load. Thus, the label on the power supply will state a
    combined total power for those outputs. The total power for
    the power supply should also be based on some fundamental
    limit of the supply (maybe the rating of the primary side
    and switching components ?). In any case, all those limits
    apply simultaneously, so you cannot exceed any output's
    maximum current, neither can you exceed one of the group
    power ratings.

    If the ratings on that label are for real, you've got enough
    power *maybe* for a Pentium-M or a Via EPIA. There isn't
    enough current available on +5V or +12V to run any of the
    motherboards I've got here (my home collection).

    So, work on verifying that label.

    The +5VSB stands for +5 volts standby. The +5VSB supply
    continues to run when the computer is in S3 Standby. The
    suspend to RAM function requires power to keep the memory
    chips refreshed, and that comes from +5VSB. The +5VSB is
    also used for any Wake on LAN, Wake on Ring, or similar
    functions, that require portions of the other chips to be
    operational while the computer is in standby. These days,
    2 amps is a good number for +5VSB. If you only have
    one amp to work with, then all wake functions and any
    USB/keyboard header settings must be set not to use +5VSB.

    My measurements for my A7N8X-E and P4C800-E were done with
    a clamp-on DC ammeter. This is a device based on a Hall
    probe, that converts the magnetic field around a conductor
    into a voltage. My meter will measure AC or DC current in
    a conductor, by simply clamping the meter around a
    conductor or a group of conductors (the magnetic fields add).

    This is how I measured my home systems. You grab all the +5V
    wires on the ATX 20 pin power cable and put them in the jaws
    of one of these, then measure the current flowing in the
    bundle of wires. Useful for determining how close to the
    limits you are. Mine cost $400 Canadian.

    http://www.extechproducts.com/products/extech/380941_942_947.pdf

    Paul
  5. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
    news:nospam-1002051352280001@192.168.1.177...
    > In article <371kmgF58bkr0U1@individual.net>, "Arifi Koseoglu"
    > <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
    >
    >> "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message
    >> news:nospam-1002050806470001@192.168.1.177...
    >> > In article <1107996840.065613.250950@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
    >> > "arifi" <arifi@turk.net> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Hello everyone,
    >> >>
    >> >> At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    >> >> those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
    >> >> carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    >> >> buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    >> >> better and be more flexible.
    >> >>
    >> >> The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    >> >> Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    >> >> microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom
    >> >> for
    >> >> this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >> >>
    >> >> Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx"
    >> >> on
    >> >> their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >> >>
    >> >> P5GD1-VM
    >> >> P4GE-MX
    >> >> P4R800-VM
    >> >> P4P800-VM
    >> >> P4BP-MX
    >> >> P4S800-MX
    >> >> P4SP-MX
    >> >> P4SP-MX SE
    >> >> P4V533-MX
    >> >> P4VP-MX
    >> >> A7N8X-VM
    >> >> A7N8X-VM/400
    >> >> P5S800-VM
    >> >> K8S-MX
    >> >>
    >> >> I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to
    >> >> find
    >> >> conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system
    >> >> built
    >> >> around one ot them would require.
    >> >>
    >> >> The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU,
    >> >> 1x
    >> >> SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
    >> >> attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount of
    >> >> computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
    >> >> but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the
    >> >> power
    >> >> supply can drive.
    >> >>
    >> >> There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    >> >> looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above
    >> >> where
    >> >> the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    >> >>
    >> >> So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    >> >> motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
    >> >> can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    >> >> speeds - no overclocking)
    >> >>
    >> >> I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    >> >>
    >> >> Many thanks in advance,
    >> >> -arifi
    >> >
    >> > For power estimation purposes, you could go to the Intel motherboard
    >> > web page, and look at some boards there. Each board has a manual,
    >> > and there is a power estimate section.
    >> >
    >> > http://developer.intel.com/design/motherbd/products.htm
    >> >
    >> > This is the manual for the D915GAG (microATX builtin graphics)
    >> > These numbers are maximums, in every sense of the word.
    >> > I use these numbers only to get some idea of what the
    >> > non-CPU rails will be drawing.
    >> > ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/ag/C6860002.pdf
    >> >
    >> > Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    >> > Minimum loading 200.00W 3.30A 10.00A 900mA 0.03A 0.80A
    >> > Maximum loading 300.00W 6.00A 14.00A 16.00A 0.10A 1.40A
    >> >
    >> > Based on their description, start with the minimum loading
    >> > spec. Your two DIMMs will add about 5W each. The +12V
    >> > draw, exclusive of the processor, would be for fans.
    >> > A Prescott P4 2.8/FSB800/1MB LGA775 has a TDP of 84 watts
    >> > (see page 74 table 5-1).
    >> >
    >> > ftp://download.intel.com/design/Pentium4/datashts/30235101.pdf
    >> >
    >> > The 84W comes from +12V. The Vcore converter could be
    >> > considered to be 90% efficient (based on the fact that the
    >> > MOSFETs and toroids don't get warm to the touch). The
    >> > +12V current required is thus (84/12)*(1/0.90)=7.8A .
    >> > (A 2.8GHz/FSB800/512KB Northwood is 69.7W ==> 6.45A)
    >> >
    >> > Adding this together, and assuming the DIMM power comes
    >> > from +3.3V (3 amps to give the requires 10 watts), gives
    >> > a Prescott based 2.8Ghz system with power of:
    >> >
    >> > Mode DC Power +3.3V +5V +12V -12V +5VSB
    >> > Minimum loading --- 3.30A 10.00A 0.9A 0.03A 0.80A
    >> > DIMMs --- 3.0A --- --- --- ---
    >> > Processor --- --- --- 7.8A --- ---
    >> > Disk drive --- --- 1.0A 0.5A --- ---
    >> > CD/RW Drive --- --- 1.0A 1.5A --- ---
    >> > Total 212.6W 6.30A 12.0A 10.7A 0.03A 0.80A
    >> > (Fan current included in the 0.9A minimum)
    >> >
    >> > This online calculator will also work out powers for you.
    >> > http://takaman.jp/D/?english
    >> >
    >> > Other details. The hard drive will draw 2 amps from +12V
    >> > while spinning up. (Since the processor doesn't run at
    >> > full power in the BIOS, this is not an issue. On a
    >> > system I measured with my ammeter, CPU power might be
    >> > about 50% of max, while sitting in the BIOS as the drive
    >> > spins up.)
    >> >
    >> > The CD/RW will only draw the 1.5 amp number while spinning
    >> > as well. Optical drive currents drop substantially when they
    >> > are not in use (no CD in drive). The listed hard drive
    >> > current might be representative of a seek operation.
    >> >
    >> > You can find replacement supplies. But it won't be
    >> > easy.
    >> >
    >> > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/prices/
    >> >
    >> > There are a couple of 1U power supplies here. Due to the
    >> > small fan size, these will likely make a lot of noise
    >> > if you draw decent power from them.
    >> >
    >> >
    > http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/index_hp_1u.htm
    >> >
    >> > As Rob pointed out, there is a whole spectrum of power
    >> > saving solutions out there. But you'll need time to experiment
    >> > with them, to find the right one.
    >> >
    >> > As for actual measured systems - these measurements are
    >> > exclusive of video card power. (My 9800pro video card
    >> > can draw 5V@5.5A 12V@0.9A, but when the video card is
    >> > working that hard, the processor generally cannot run
    >> > at full power, due to waiting for the video card to
    >> > complete operations. A FX5200 low performance type video
    >> > card, would eliminate that extra power.) There is one hard
    >> > drive and one CD on these systems.
    >> >
    >> > These two systems are roughly equal in gaming computing power.
    >> > A fast video card can add 38W to the power numbers. This shows
    >> > you how close a real system would get to your 230W total rating.
    >> > With a FX5200 class video card, you would be in good shape.
    >> >
    >> > (Processor current comes from +5V...)
    >> > A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    >> > 3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)
    >> >
    >> > (Processor current comes from +12V...)
    >> > P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    >> > 3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)
    >> >
    >> > The only thing that seems to be amiss, is Intel's user
    >> > manual estimates a large +5V consumption, and at least
    >> > with my P4C800-E, the power seems to come more from
    >> > +3.3V . This means, depending on which company makes the
    >> > motherboard, the same amount of power will be used, but
    >> > it could either be drawn heavily from +3.3V or +5V rail.
    >> >
    >> > In the examples above, the AthlonXP board uses the +5V supply
    >> > to power the processor. Pentium4 and Athlon64 boards use
    >> > +12V to power the processor (that is why they both use the
    >> > 2x2 power connector, for extra +12V current). Depending on
    >> > how the amps pan out on the various outputs of your power
    >> > supply, may help you decide whether a +5V powered processor
    >> > or a +12V powered processor, is the right answer.
    >> >
    >> > As for Athlon64, the TDPs are listed here. Some of the
    >> > Athlon64's have very nice power numbers. Whether they will
    >> > work for you, really depends on whether your application mix
    >> > works well with Athlon64's strengths and weaknesses. If you
    >> > were building a gaming box, the Athlon64 would be the easy
    >> > choice.
    >> >
    >> >
    > http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30430.pdf
    >> >
    >> > HTH,
    >> > Paul
    >>
    >>
    >> Dear Paul,
    >>
    >> Hello again, and of course MANY MANY THANKS for the (once again) very
    >> much
    >> detailed information.
    >>
    >> After reading your post, the case I mentioned actually arrived and I had
    >> the
    >> chance to look at the actual label on the power supply: First of all, the
    >> PSU has a label stating that it is a 350W PSU and not a 230W as we were
    >> told
    >> by the supplier. HOWEVER, the ratings on the label are as follows:
    >>
    >> -----------------------------------------------
    >> +3.3V | +5V | +12V | -5V | -12V | +5VSB
    >> 7A | 13A | 6A | 0.5A | 0.8A | 1A
    >> -----------------------------------------------
    >> 75W Max |-------| 9.6 W Max |-------
    >> -----------------------------------------------
    >> 3 5 0 W
    >> -----------------------------------------------
    >>
    >> Now, here is how I interpret the label:
    >>
    >> 1. The 75W Max. under the +3.3V & +5V columns probably means that the
    >> combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 75Watts, while
    >> the
    >> +3.3V line can carry 3.3x7=23.1W and the +5V line 5x13=65W.
    >>
    >> 2. The +12V line is capable of producing 12x6=72W.
    >>
    >> 3. The 9.6W Max. under the -5V & -12V columns probably means that the
    >> combined simultaneous load on these lines cannot exceed 9.6Watts, while
    >> the -5V line can carry 5x0.5=2.5W and the -12V line 12x0.8=9.6W. Prescott
    >> based 2.8Ghz
    >>
    >> 4. The +5VSB line is capable of producing 5x1=5W. (By the way, what does
    >> VSB
    >> mean?)
    >>
    >> 5. Taking into account the 75W and 9.6W Maximums, and adding the +12V and
    >> +5VSB powers, I calculate the actual total power to be 75 + 9.6 + (72) +
    >> (5)
    >> = 161.6W YUCK !!! Is this calculation correct?? Where is the claimed 350W
    >> ??
    >>
    >> You mention that the P4 and Athlon64 get their CPU power from the +12V
    >> line,
    >> while the AthlonXP from the +5V line. The P42.8Prescott has a TDP of
    >> 84Watts
    >> (your post) and the Athlon64 3000+ a Max. TDP of 89Watts (Athlon64 Power
    >> and
    >> Thermal Data Sheet.)
    >>
    >> Does that now mean that I cannot run either of these CPUs using this PSU
    >> or
    >> am I missing something?
    >>
    >> Under what conditions are the maximum Power levels reached? Typical
    >> loading
    >> of CPU on the Demo system will be a sequence like [Short/Intermediate
    >> Peak] - [Longer Idle] - [Short Peak] - [Longer Idle] -
    >> [Short/Intermediate
    >> Peak] - [Longer Idle] ...
    >>
    >> Here comes where I get confused again. In your post you mention:
    >>
    >> >(Processor current comes from +5V...)
    >> >A7N8X-E 3200+ 2x512MB dual channel
    >> >3.3V@5.2A 5V@16.6A 12V@0.53A (running Prime95 = 106W)
    >>
    >> >(Processor current comes from +12V...)
    >> >P4C800-E 2.8G/FSB800/512K 2x512MB dual channel
    >> >3.3V@11.6A 5V@0.55A 12V@6.0A (running memtest86 = 113W)
    >>
    >> Here you calculate the total Wattage by collecting values from all rails
    >> (3.3, 5, 12). Then probably I should not expect all the CPU power from
    >> the
    >> 12V rail alone in the Athlon64 and Prescott cases... If so, I could still
    >> use and Athlon64 or Prescott... But in your table you had put the 7.8A
    >> for
    >> the CPU completely on the 12V line of the Prescott based 2.8Ghz
    >> system...Or
    >> ??
    >>
    >> Confused... I hope I am not asking the obvious.
    >>
    >> Many Thanks,
    >> Cheers,
    >> -arifi
    >
    > That has got to be the worst power supply I've ever seen.
    >
    > Are you sure that isn't the *minimum* load ? Some supplies
    > have two sets of number, some minimum numbers and some
    > maximum numbers. The power supply will not regulate to
    > within 5% of nominal output voltage, unless the minimum
    > load is applied.
    >
    > Is it possible for you to give more info about the
    > case and power supply you bought ? Do you have a
    > URL for a website, with details about the product,
    > and maybe a picture of the label on the power supply ?
    >
    > I think you understand the basic principles. The power
    > supply has limits for the maximum current that can
    > come from any individual output, and there are also
    > limits for certain groups of outputs. The group limits
    > are caused by using a multi-winding transformer in the
    > output. If two windings are supplying current, the thermal
    > load on the transformer will bear some relationship to that
    > load. Thus, the label on the power supply will state a
    > combined total power for those outputs. The total power for
    > the power supply should also be based on some fundamental
    > limit of the supply (maybe the rating of the primary side
    > and switching components ?). In any case, all those limits
    > apply simultaneously, so you cannot exceed any output's
    > maximum current, neither can you exceed one of the group
    > power ratings.
    >
    > If the ratings on that label are for real, you've got enough
    > power *maybe* for a Pentium-M or a Via EPIA. There isn't
    > enough current available on +5V or +12V to run any of the
    > motherboards I've got here (my home collection).
    >
    > So, work on verifying that label.
    >
    > The +5VSB stands for +5 volts standby. The +5VSB supply
    > continues to run when the computer is in S3 Standby. The
    > suspend to RAM function requires power to keep the memory
    > chips refreshed, and that comes from +5VSB. The +5VSB is
    > also used for any Wake on LAN, Wake on Ring, or similar
    > functions, that require portions of the other chips to be
    > operational while the computer is in standby. These days,
    > 2 amps is a good number for +5VSB. If you only have
    > one amp to work with, then all wake functions and any
    > USB/keyboard header settings must be set not to use +5VSB.
    >
    > My measurements for my A7N8X-E and P4C800-E were done with
    > a clamp-on DC ammeter. This is a device based on a Hall
    > probe, that converts the magnetic field around a conductor
    > into a voltage. My meter will measure AC or DC current in
    > a conductor, by simply clamping the meter around a
    > conductor or a group of conductors (the magnetic fields add).
    >
    > This is how I measured my home systems. You grab all the +5V
    > wires on the ATX 20 pin power cable and put them in the jaws
    > of one of these, then measure the current flowing in the
    > bundle of wires. Useful for determining how close to the
    > limits you are. Mine cost $400 Canadian.
    >
    > http://www.extechproducts.com/products/extech/380941_942_947.pdf
    >
    > Paul


    Dear Paul,

    The web site of the company producing (actually, importing from China) the
    case does not have any details on the PSU, so I removed the PSU from the
    case, scanned the three sides on which the label was wrapped, combined the
    three images and put the file on our web site:

    http://www.mind2biz.com/download/codegen_psu_label.jpg

    The case's web page is:

    http://www.codegen.com.tr/desktop/ms-2.htm

    We have the MS2-G7, which is the same as the MS2-G10 except for the color.
    Some translation for the Turkish terms on that page (not that you wouldn't
    be able to figure it out): "Boyutlar" means "Dimensions", "Surucu Yuvalari"
    means "Drive Bays" and "Ses & Mikrofon" means "Sound and Microphone"

    The actual dimensions of the PSU, if relevant, are 45mm x 80mm x 220mm (1.8"
    x 3.2" x 8.8") (WxHxD), and it has two 4cm (1.6") fans, one one each end.

    Here we have 220V/50Hz mains.

    Pentium-M is hard to find here and importing from outside Turkey has too
    much paperwork and extra costs attached. Of course, another case could be an
    option, but strangely, this brand is the only one supplying these "slim"
    ones and portability is also a factor.

    Now, assuming that the information on the label's picture will not bring any
    good news (but hoping for the opposite), should ve resort to plain AthlonXPs
    and older P4s? For example, AMD documentation
    http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26237.PDF
    states that an AthlonXP 2800+ draws a max. of 68.3W, which is just slightly
    above the 65Watts that can be drawn (according to its label) from the +5V
    line of this PSU. Similar options may be available for the P4 family too...

    When is the "Max" power needed? When the CPU is running at 100% capacity
    according to Windows Task Manager, is it also drawing the max. current /
    power from the PSU? Is the duration a factor here?

    Many thanks *again*,
    Best,
    -arifi
  6. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:11:28 +0200, "Arifi Koseoglu"
    <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

    >Now, assuming that the information on the label's picture will not bring any
    >good news (but hoping for the opposite), should ve resort to plain AthlonXPs
    >and older P4s? For example, AMD documentation
    >http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26237.PDF
    >states that an AthlonXP 2800+ draws a max. of 68.3W, which is just slightly
    >above the 65Watts that can be drawn (according to its label) from the +5V
    >line of this PSU. Similar options may be available for the P4 family too...

    AMD XP and Intel P4 use the 12V line for their main power, I doubt 6A on
    the 12V line is going to cut it. My Enlight 300W PSU has 10A on the 12V
    line and can run a Barton 2800+ w/1 HDD + low end grafix card, anything
    faster and it needs more power. I just put an Antec 400w (12V @ 18A) in
    it and now it runs @ 3200+ (and faster 2.4GHz) no problem.

    Ed
  7. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    In article <373b61F56qeu1U1@individual.net>, "Arifi Koseoglu"
    <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:

    <<snip>>
    >
    > Dear Paul,
    >
    > The web site of the company producing (actually, importing from China) the
    > case does not have any details on the PSU, so I removed the PSU from the
    > case, scanned the three sides on which the label was wrapped, combined the
    > three images and put the file on our web site:
    >
    > http://www.mind2biz.com/download/codegen_psu_label.jpg
    >
    > The case's web page is:
    >
    > http://www.codegen.com.tr/desktop/ms-2.htm
    >
    > We have the MS2-G7, which is the same as the MS2-G10 except for the color.
    > Some translation for the Turkish terms on that page (not that you wouldn't
    > be able to figure it out): "Boyutlar" means "Dimensions", "Surucu Yuvalari"
    > means "Drive Bays" and "Ses & Mikrofon" means "Sound and Microphone"
    >
    > The actual dimensions of the PSU, if relevant, are 45mm x 80mm x 220mm (1.8"
    > x 3.2" x 8.8") (WxHxD), and it has two 4cm (1.6") fans, one one each end.
    >
    > Here we have 220V/50Hz mains.
    >
    > Pentium-M is hard to find here and importing from outside Turkey has too
    > much paperwork and extra costs attached. Of course, another case could be an
    > option, but strangely, this brand is the only one supplying these "slim"
    > ones and portability is also a factor.
    >
    > Now, assuming that the information on the label's picture will not bring any
    > good news (but hoping for the opposite), should ve resort to plain AthlonXPs
    > and older P4s? For example, AMD documentation
    >
    http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26237.PDF
    > states that an AthlonXP 2800+ draws a max. of 68.3W, which is just slightly
    > above the 65Watts that can be drawn (according to its label) from the +5V
    > line of this PSU. Similar options may be available for the P4 family too...
    >
    > When is the "Max" power needed? When the CPU is running at 100% capacity
    > according to Windows Task Manager, is it also drawing the max. current /
    > power from the PSU? Is the duration a factor here?
    >
    > Many thanks *again*,
    > Best,
    > -arifi

    You want to design a computer with no compromises. That means it
    should be able to run 24 hours a day with the Windows Task Manager
    at 100%, without the power supply being stressed or without
    the computer overheating. That means the power supply must have
    adequate power and the computer must have an adequate cooling system.
    (You wouldn't want the system to quit right in the middle of your
    demonstration to customers.)

    You have picked a very challenging system build. To build a small
    system, means either using the best technology available, or
    you have to accept a lower performance level.

    Here is an example. I think this system is roughly the same
    size as your computer case. This is an Asus barebones system,
    with computer case, power supply, motherboard being the bare
    essentials.

    http://usa.asus.com/prog/spec.asp?langs=09&m=Prodigy%20P4S

    Notice how the computer takes PC2100 ram and up to 2.5GHz
    processor. The size of the box and the capacity of the
    power supply limit what you can do.

    Since you are familiar with Asus, perhaps you should look
    through the barebones systems, for one that is acceptable.

    ***********
    A more expensive option, is a Shuttle. It is (L)300*(W)200*(H)185.
    dimensions. It has a 250W power supply. The power supply specs are here:
    http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/systems/images/Shuttle_SB75G2/Shuttle_Case_PSU.jpg

    There is a review here.
    http://www.extremeoverclocking.com/reviews/systems/Shuttle_SB75G2_1.html

    The Shuttle web site is here. The SB75G2 is equivalent to a P4C800
    Asus motherboard, roughly speaking. But only two DIMM slots.
    http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/brb_default.asp

    This support page claims the case can take a P4 3.4GHz and
    a 9800XT video card. The case has a heat pipe cooling system,
    for moving processor heat to a fan on the back of the computer.
    http://global.shuttle.com/Support/SupportList.asp?Item=SB75G2

    This product is expensive, and when I was investigating building
    a system for a relative with this product, the total price for the
    system was becoming astronomical.

    As you can see from the power output on the power supply:
    3.3V@18A 5V@19A 12V@16A +5VSB@2.0A

    the power in the Shuttle case is sufficient for a decent P4
    system.
    ***********

    You can fix the power problem, by searching for a 1U power supply.
    This page has a couple of examples. This company has a reputation
    for producing the Cadillac of power supplies, so they are
    expensive ($99 US) but worth it. This one is 3.95"W x 7.9"D x 1.6"H,
    so it is a bit wider than your current power supply, but has
    much better numbers:

    http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/power_supplies/highperformance/turbocools/index_hp_1u.htm
    +3.3V@20A 5V@30A +12V@16A +5VSB@2A -12V@0.8A

    With this, you could build an AMD or an Intel system.

    But, once all that heat is inside your computer case, would there
    be enough fans to remove the heat ?
    ***********

    Now, what can you build with your existing power ?
    +3.3@7A +5@13A +12@6A +5VSB@1A

    On the AthlonXP side, I don't think you have enough +5V to run
    one. The thing is, there is more than the processor drawing on
    +5V, and that is what would make it tough. The 1700+ has the best
    power numbers in this table:
    http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=nospam-3008040440090001%40192.168.1.177

    A 2GHz Celeron FSB400 is 53W. It would use up a bit more than 4 amps
    for the processor. You would need to locate the CDROM drive from a
    laptop, as some of those are powered by +5V only, and you have a
    bit more +5V to spare. You have many choices for hard drives, and
    may be able to find something that runs from +5V (again, possibly
    a laptop drive, or even a drive in a USB enclosure might do the
    trick).

    Here are the Celeron specs:
    http://processorfinder.intel.com/scripts/details.asp?sSpec=sl6vr

    Now, looking at my notes, the P4C800-E seems to draw too much from
    +3.3V to work with your power supply. Even if using only one stick
    of RAM (the memory is powered by +3.3V on that board). There might
    be other motherboards that power the RAM from +5V. So, the motherboard
    choice would be tricky, to make the 2Ghz Celeron work out. You would
    have a hard time determining just how much +5 and +3.3V comsumption
    you've got.

    The Via Nehemiah processor (1.4GHz 21W power) might be a possibility.
    http://www.mini-itx.com is a website dedicated to small computing
    products, and they have a store as well. Probably not enough computing
    power for what you want. Various designs using 60, 90, or 120W
    power supplies. They have a P4 mini-itx motherboard there, but
    since it doesn't give details of its power requirements, it might
    not work with your +3.3V@7A limit.

    If I were in your shoes, I would toss that computer case and
    power supply in the back closet, then go shopping for a barebones
    system.

    Put a Northwood 2.8C/FSB800/512KB processor in this barebones system.
    The only thing I don't like about this, is it uses an ATI chipset.
    Power supply = +3.3@8A +5@4A +12@9.5A +5VSB@1.5A -12V@0.2A
    Not a lot more than your current supply, but the +12V is a bit better.

    http://usa.asus.com/products/desktop/pundit-r/overview.htm

    The Pundit-R must be running the DIMMs off of the +3.3V supply.
    The +5V@4A would be used mainly for your disk drives. That would
    be enough for a simple CDROM and a hard drive. (Note - in this case,
    you do not want to buy or use laptop components, as you don't have
    enough +5V for them, ordinary drives using +5 and +12 are the
    right answer.) The +12V is enough for the 6.45A of the 2.8Ghz
    Northwood, leaving 3 amps to run the hard drive and CDROM.

    If you download the manual:
    ftp://ftp.asus.com.tw/pub/ASUS/Barebone/Pundit/manual/e1611_ab-p2800_pundit-r.pdf

    the BIOS has the silly "DRAM CAS Select" [Fast,Slow]. You may have
    to try a couple of different DIMMs until you find something that
    works well with this board. The board supports dual channel RAM
    operation.

    The Pundit-R has no AGP slot, so if you really don't like the
    built-in graphics, the only option you would have, is to find
    a PCI graphics card (and you'd probably run out of +5V power if
    you try that). The small size of this system is partially
    responsible for the design tradeoffs. Some other barebones
    systems do offer AGP, but have other compromises (case doesn't
    look as nice). Check Google for comments about this product.

    Anyway, I spent a month about a year ago, researching some of
    these possibilities, and I ended up just throwing in the towel
    and buying one similar to this. This unit has a power supply in
    the base, and when running at 100% in the task manager with
    a 2.8Ghz processor, the fan makes a lot of noise. And this
    wasn't cheap either. It has a 1280x1024 LCD display and a
    compact footprint.

    http://www.clevo.com.tw/products/L297U.asp

    I also liked the look of this, but couldn't locate a retailer
    willing to sell one. This is basically a laptop, but without
    the LCD, and it has a VGA output. I think it may have already
    been discontinued:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20040213015122/http://www.ecs.com.tw/products/a980.htm

    P.S. In my two sample home systems that I measured, the power
    figures I gave are for just the motherboard. I neglected to measure
    the hard drive and CDROM drive, so they aren't included.

    I hope you have a large budget for this project. It helps :-)

    Have fun,
    Paul
  8. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    In news:1107996840.065613.250950@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,
    arifi <arifi@turk.net> typed:
    > Hello everyone,
    >
    > At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    > those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy to
    > carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    > buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    > better and be more flexible.
    >
    > The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    > Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    > microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom
    > for this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >
    > Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx"
    > on their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >

    > A7N8X-VM/400

    [...]

    > Many thanks in advance,
    > -arifi

    Just to let you know,
    I have built a SFF PC around an A7N8X-VM/400 with an AMD processor and am
    very happy with it.

    L.
  9. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    In article <nospam-1402051752020001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
    (Paul) wrote:

    > In article <37boffF59itsaU1@individual.net>, "Arifi Koseoglu"
    > <someone@somewhere.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > Then I started looking into specs of AMD cpus again. This time Semprons,
    > > settling for less performance. To my surprise, there exists one that has a
    > > Barton core with 512K L2: the Sempron 3000+ (Socket A). I assumed this
    > > cannot perform worse that an AthlonXP; and has a TDP of only 62Watts !!. I
    > > decided to give it a try. Worse comes worst, we will use it in one of our
    > > other desktop systems.

    Something else that occurred to me - when I checked the datasheet
    for the Sempron 3000+ Model 10 (effectively a Barton core), it is
    62 watts max, and 49.4 watts typical, which means the real
    power won't be quite as bad as I indicated in the other post.
    You still cannot afford to draw hard disk/CDROM power from +12V,
    but at least the power supply is not about to "fall over" due to
    the processor load.

    The Barton 3000+ is 74.3W max and 58.4W typical. And the reason
    for the higher power, is AthlonXP compares to Pentium4, while
    Sempron compares to Celeron. So, your Sempron 3000+ is comparable
    to a Celeron 3000, while an AthlonXP 3000+ is comparable
    to a Pentium 4 3.0GHz. The AthlonXP 3000+ draws more power,
    because it is a more powerful processor than the Sempron 3000+.

    Paul
  10. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    arifi wrote:
    > Hello everyone,
    >
    > At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    > those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy
    to
    > carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    > buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    > better and be more flexible.
    >
    > The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    > Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    > microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom
    for
    > this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >
    > Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx"
    on
    > their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >
    > P5GD1-VM
    > P4GE-MX
    > P4R800-VM
    > P4P800-VM
    > P4BP-MX
    > P4S800-MX
    > P4SP-MX
    > P4SP-MX SE
    > P4V533-MX
    > P4VP-MX
    > A7N8X-VM
    > A7N8X-VM/400
    > P5S800-VM
    > K8S-MX
    >
    > I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to
    find
    > conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system
    built
    > around one ot them would require.
    >
    > The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU,
    1x
    > SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
    > attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount
    of
    > computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
    > but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the
    power
    > supply can drive.
    >
    > There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    > looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above
    where
    > the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    >
    > So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    > motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
    > can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    > speeds - no overclocking)
    >
    > I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    >
    > Many thanks in advance,
    > -arifi

    Couple of commments:

    1- You can always underclock the CPU to save power.
    2- Don't neglect the start-up current of the hard drive. It can be 50%
    greater than the steady state current.
    3- You might want to look into solid state disks using flash
    technology. Less power and no moving parts. Great for throwing in the
    trunk of the sales engineer's car.

    arnie
  11. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    <aberger@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
    news:1108502409.400283.234330@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > arifi wrote:
    >> Hello everyone,
    >>
    >> At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one of
    >> those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be easy
    > to
    >> carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather than
    >> buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    >> better and be more flexible.
    >>
    >> The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    >> Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can house
    >> microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one custom
    > for
    >> this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >>
    >> Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and "matx"
    > on
    >> their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >>
    >> P5GD1-VM
    >> P4GE-MX
    >> P4R800-VM
    >> P4P800-VM
    >> P4BP-MX
    >> P4S800-MX
    >> P4SP-MX
    >> P4SP-MX SE
    >> P4V533-MX
    >> P4VP-MX
    >> A7N8X-VM
    >> A7N8X-VM/400
    >> P5S800-VM
    >> K8S-MX
    >>
    >> I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to
    > find
    >> conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system
    > built
    >> around one ot them would require.
    >>
    >> The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4 CPU,
    > 1x
    >> SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No other
    >> attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The amount
    > of
    >> computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg Cache,
    >> but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the
    > power
    >> supply can drive.
    >>
    >> There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    >> looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above
    > where
    >> the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    >>
    >> So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    >> motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination I
    >> can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    >> speeds - no overclocking)
    >>
    >> I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    >>
    >> Many thanks in advance,
    >> -arifi
    >
    > Couple of commments:
    >
    > 1- You can always underclock the CPU to save power.
    > 2- Don't neglect the start-up current of the hard drive. It can be 50%
    > greater than the steady state current.
    > 3- You might want to look into solid state disks using flash
    > technology. Less power and no moving parts. Great for throwing in the
    > trunk of the sales engineer's car.
    >
    > arnie
    >

    Hello Arnie,

    I will end up underclocking the CPU probably, if I cannot get a proper PSU
    and problems arise, but performance is also a factor - not a happy
    alternative.

    I do not know much (actually anything) about solid state disks - but would
    assume they would cost much more than standard ones. How are
    capacity/performance characteristics ?

    Thanks,
    -arifi
  12. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    Arifi Koseoglu wrote:
    > <aberger@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
    > news:1108502409.400283.234330@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > >
    > > arifi wrote:
    > >> Hello everyone,
    > >>
    > >> At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one
    of
    > >> those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be
    easy
    > > to
    > >> carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather
    than
    > >> buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    > >> better and be more flexible.
    > >>
    > >> The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    > >> Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can
    house
    > >> microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one
    custom
    > > for
    > >> this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    > >>
    > >> Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and
    "matx"
    > > on
    > >> their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    > >>
    > >> P5GD1-VM
    > >> P4GE-MX
    > >> P4R800-VM
    > >> P4P800-VM
    > >> P4BP-MX
    > >> P4S800-MX
    > >> P4SP-MX
    > >> P4SP-MX SE
    > >> P4V533-MX
    > >> P4VP-MX
    > >> A7N8X-VM
    > >> A7N8X-VM/400
    > >> P5S800-VM
    > >> K8S-MX
    > >>
    > >> I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to
    > > find
    > >> conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system
    > > built
    > >> around one ot them would require.
    > >>
    > >> The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4
    CPU,
    > > 1x
    > >> SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No
    other
    > >> attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The
    amount
    > > of
    > >> computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg
    Cache,
    > >> but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the
    > > power
    > >> supply can drive.
    > >>
    > >> There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    > >> looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above
    > > where
    > >> the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    > >>
    > >> So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    > >> motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination
    I
    > >> can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    > >> speeds - no overclocking)
    > >>
    > >> I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    > >>
    > >> Many thanks in advance,
    > >> -arifi
    > >
    > > Couple of commments:
    > >
    > > 1- You can always underclock the CPU to save power.
    > > 2- Don't neglect the start-up current of the hard drive. It can be
    50%
    > > greater than the steady state current.
    > > 3- You might want to look into solid state disks using flash
    > > technology. Less power and no moving parts. Great for throwing in
    the
    > > trunk of the sales engineer's car.
    > >
    > > arnie
    > >
    >
    > Hello Arnie,
    >
    > I will end up underclocking the CPU probably, if I cannot get a
    proper PSU
    > and problems arise, but performance is also a factor - not a happy
    > alternative.
    >
    > I do not know much (actually anything) about solid state disks - but
    would
    > assume they would cost much more than standard ones. How are
    > capacity/performance characteristics ?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > -arifi

    They're certainly faster than a standard disk, so that could make up
    for the speed issue. The cost obviously depends upon the capacity that
    you need. However, the more I think about your application the more I
    think that a good laptop will be a better solution.

    With USB 2.0, you can hang as much stuff as you like on it and you can
    always add an outboard monitor. I'm not sure what you get in terms of
    flexibility of a small footprint desktop versus a laptop, other than
    cost. However, I'm seeing really good laptops in the $1000 range right
    now and you aren't going to save much more money. Also, doing a demo at
    a customer's site (something I'm painfully experienced with) you would
    really be better off not having to do a set-up. I worked for HP for 15
    years and did a lot of demos myself. I think a laptop is the way to go.

    arnie
  13. Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

    <aberger@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
    news:1108678009.974089.277390@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > Arifi Koseoglu wrote:
    >> <aberger@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
    >> news:1108502409.400283.234330@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >> >
    >> > arifi wrote:
    >> >> Hello everyone,
    >> >>
    >> >> At work we wish to build a small-footprint demo computer using one
    > of
    >> >> those thin (10cm / 4 inches high) desktop cases, which will be
    > easy
    >> > to
    >> >> carry to customer's sites, and such. We prefer this way rather
    > than
    >> >> buying a strong laptop since we believe such a system will perform
    >> >> better and be more flexible.
    >> >>
    >> >> The case we have found has a power suply capable of producing 230
    >> >> Watts, and they claim it easily drives P4 systems. The case can
    > house
    >> >> microATX size MoBos. The power supply is a thin and long one
    > custom
    >> > for
    >> >> this case, so there is no easy way to upgrade the PSU.
    >> >>
    >> >> Being primarily an ASUS house, we searched for "microatx" and
    > "matx"
    >> > on
    >> >> their web site, and the following motherboards were listed:
    >> >>
    >> >> P5GD1-VM
    >> >> P4GE-MX
    >> >> P4R800-VM
    >> >> P4P800-VM
    >> >> P4BP-MX
    >> >> P4S800-MX
    >> >> P4SP-MX
    >> >> P4SP-MX SE
    >> >> P4V533-MX
    >> >> P4VP-MX
    >> >> A7N8X-VM
    >> >> A7N8X-VM/400
    >> >> P5S800-VM
    >> >> K8S-MX
    >> >>
    >> >> I would assume all to be nice boards, but we have not been able to
    >> > find
    >> >> conclusive information about how much Wattage the complete system
    >> > built
    >> >> around one ot them would require.
    >> >>
    >> >> The system will contain the Motherboard, 2x512MB DDR RAM, 1x P4
    > CPU,
    >> > 1x
    >> >> SATA drive, CDROM Player, cabled keyboard and cabled mouse. No
    > other
    >> >> attachments except for a monitor or a projection device. The
    > amount
    >> > of
    >> >> computing power we need is at the order of a P4-2800 with 1Meg
    > Cache,
    >> >> but we do know that we will have to settle with the max. that the
    >> > power
    >> >> supply can drive.
    >> >>
    >> >> There are Power Supply calculators out there, but the ones I have
    >> >> looked into do not consider all-in-one boards like the ones above
    >> > where
    >> >> the graphics card, lan etc are all on the motherboard.
    >> >>
    >> >> So the Question is: How can I find out how much power these
    >> >> motherboards will draw? What is the strongest CPU/MoBo combination
    > I
    >> >> can use with the 230W PS we have? (he system will be run at rated
    >> >> speeds - no overclocking)
    >> >>
    >> >> I will appreciate any information and any pointers deeply.
    >> >>
    >> >> Many thanks in advance,
    >> >> -arifi
    >> >
    >> > Couple of commments:
    >> >
    >> > 1- You can always underclock the CPU to save power.
    >> > 2- Don't neglect the start-up current of the hard drive. It can be
    > 50%
    >> > greater than the steady state current.
    >> > 3- You might want to look into solid state disks using flash
    >> > technology. Less power and no moving parts. Great for throwing in
    > the
    >> > trunk of the sales engineer's car.
    >> >
    >> > arnie
    >> >
    >>
    >> Hello Arnie,
    >>
    >> I will end up underclocking the CPU probably, if I cannot get a
    > proper PSU
    >> and problems arise, but performance is also a factor - not a happy
    >> alternative.
    >>
    >> I do not know much (actually anything) about solid state disks - but
    > would
    >> assume they would cost much more than standard ones. How are
    >> capacity/performance characteristics ?
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >> -arifi
    >
    > They're certainly faster than a standard disk, so that could make up
    > for the speed issue. The cost obviously depends upon the capacity that
    > you need. However, the more I think about your application the more I
    > think that a good laptop will be a better solution.
    >
    > With USB 2.0, you can hang as much stuff as you like on it and you can
    > always add an outboard monitor. I'm not sure what you get in terms of
    > flexibility of a small footprint desktop versus a laptop, other than
    > cost. However, I'm seeing really good laptops in the $1000 range right
    > now and you aren't going to save much more money. Also, doing a demo at
    > a customer's site (something I'm painfully experienced with) you would
    > really be better off not having to do a set-up. I worked for HP for 15
    > years and did a lot of demos myself. I think a laptop is the way to go.
    >
    > arnie
    >

    Dear Arnie,

    Yes, a laptop is always a viable alternative. But, the ones that can be had
    for $1000 (actually, we already have one), cannot provide the required
    performance all the time, especially whenever we switch to a "Virtual
    Server" environment (using VMWare) they come to their knees just too easily.

    There would be stronger desktop replacement alternatives, of course, let's
    see...

    Cheers
    -arifi
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