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UPS unit needed for the P4C800E-Deluxe

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March 25, 2005 10:34:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe.
I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and other components
during the many summer brownouts around here.
I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.

Jimbo
March 27, 2005 2:36:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

First, there are 3 major classes of "SOHO" UPS.

1. Basic - a relay is used to switch to standby when the power fails.
Minimal if any protection against surges, none against bown outs (voltage
droops).
Here, the mains powers a battery charger when needed and flows straight to
the computer normally - surges will run straight through unless there are
surge suppressors added in the design. When a fail occurs, the relay simply
switches in a power converter to run off the batteries. The time to switch
is critical - too slow and your computer will crash. The inverter is usually
crude - square wave output with poor power characteristics. Not really that
useful.

2. Better - faster switching. May have proper surge protection etc. Perhaps
sine wave output. These are a bit dearer than those above, but usually quite
less expensive than the next.

3. Best - Output power runs off the inverter full time. Mains powers battery
charger full time. Surges are suppressed, but if big may go into the charger
and are further suppressed by it and the huge capacitance of the battery,
but excellent isolation as output runs through its own inverter from the
battery. These systems may have square wave output, but usually have sine
wave and better quality output. Most expensive, but best to get. These UPS
tend to have excellent surge and brown out suppression with no switch time
problems since there is no switching.

A good fast switching UPS is fine for many situations, but if you want peace
of mind then get the True Online type. Often the Square vs. Sine wave output
just doesn't matter too much. Avoid running peripherals of a UPS you just do
not need in a power fail scenarion - Printers, possibly Monitors, consider
LCD monitors for lower power consumption ==> better run time.

Do not trust cheapo surge suppressors - many have a life of ONE surge! Get a
lightning rod if you are in a risky area, and do not forget about surges
through telco lines.(sisters house got hit by a strike on teleco lines down
the road).

It is the Back up ability (run time at full rated load or run time at the
load you have) , Surge and Brown Out along with Switch speeds (for non True
Online UPS) that are the measures to be satisfied with. If in doubt, test on
your computer - simulate several power failures and check the PC stays up.

Take manufacturers claims with a grain of salt - use google and check
reviews. There are many 'domestic retail' el-cheapo brands that I would not
touch ever. Be picky & research.

Make sure you get a big enough UPS - I usually size them to use no more
than 60% of power rating (real ratings). IE buy 1.5 x or more than what your
computer needs max.

Make sure you get an auto shutdown interface & software. Google on what
people think of the s/w. Some is shyte. I have put in some MPC (? French)
ups recently & the s/w is really good as are the UPS. APC have been around
for a while. Some vendors web sites have online UPS calculators so give em a
go - they tend to over estimate a bit.

HTH




"jimbo" <jimmy7forever@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_dqdndI8GrmcM9nfRVn-2A@comcast.com...
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and
> other components during the many summer brownouts around here.
> I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
>
> Jimbo
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 28, 2005 5:22:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:34:10 -0500, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
"jimbo" <jimmy7forever@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and
> other components during the many summer brownouts around here.
[snip]

If poor-quality AC power (as opposed to simple power *failures*) is a concern
-- as well it should be -- then the *minimum* functionality you should accept
is what is commonly called "Line Interactive" (a marketing-ese term for
full-time voltage regulation, usually combined with some degree of noise
filtering and surge suppression). These types of units (such as the APC
"SmartUPS" series) are still "standby" supplies, in the strictest sense of
that term, since they still run the load off the AC mains under normal
circumstances and switch it to the inverter's output only if/when it senses a
serious power interruption; but they are nonetheless a HUGE improvement over
the rot-gut "Backup Power Supply" (as exemplified by the APC "BackUPS" and
"BackUPS Pro" series) which offer no significant degree of line conditioning.

Better still is a true on-line "double conversion" supply. These units use a
"bucket brigade" approach: The AC mains power is used *only* to run the
battery charger, which in turn constantly (re-)charges the batteries, which in
turn constantly power the inverter, which in turn *always* powers the load.
It should be intuitively obvious that this provides the greatest degree of
isolation between the power line (and the evils which lurk thereon) and the
protected equipment. In fact, this is the *only* type of unit which truly
deserves the term "Uninterruptable Power Supply". They used to be obscenely
expensive compared to similarly-sized line-interactive units, but that
situation is now much better... Decent double-conversion supplies can now be
had for perhaps 1.5-2X the typical line-interactive equivalent -- and IMCO,
they're worth every nickel.

> I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
>
[snip]

ITYM "550W". But that's still a fairly hefty load, as desktop PCs go,
especially if you're using a CRT-based monitor, as opposed to an LCD
(remember, you'll need to power the monitor off the UPS too, in order to be
able to interact with the system during a power failure -- if only to initiate
an orderly shutdown). So choose your UPS capacity accordingly. While a
650-700VA unit might be "adequate", something in the 1KVA range will likely be
your best bet. Besides, in this context, bigger is almost always better
anyway (in terms of run-time with a given load, if nothing else); so don't
scrimp.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 28, 2005 9:09:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
useful.

Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
provides less protection than what already exists inside a
standard power supply - even 30 years ago.

Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
existing protection and often don't even know what a power
supply does.

Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.

After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
so many layers of protection.

But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).

Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
yourself.

Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
protection is provided by the UPS.

If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
protection. They tell half truths so that others will
*assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
UPSes.

Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.

Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
assemblers.

Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
$60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
power supply functions?

Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
transient.

In summary: For effective protection of computer components
so that even a power supply failure does not damage
motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.

For effective protection of data from blackouts and
brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.

So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
$hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
motherboard protection? How does that make sense?

jimbo wrote:
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
March 30, 2005 1:30:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality of power
available that would otherwise potentially damage the computer PSU.

Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential magnitude that
some times the only solution is to unplug from the mains and move the
equipment away from conductors. I sometimes shutdown and pull the plug on my
own servers when a major electrical storm passes by.

It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge
protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially
all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious
anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one
facit. ability to service is another.

I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7
systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to
an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I
came in after the event.

Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are
buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that
sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor
that knows his/her stuff.



"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4248808D.A8E9AE72@hotmail.com...
> A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
> a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
> simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
> type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
> 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
> useful.
>
> Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
> through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
> DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
> But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
> oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
> voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
> galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
> to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
> overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
> spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
> in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
> provides less protection than what already exists inside a
> standard power supply - even 30 years ago.
>
> Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
> existing protection and often don't even know what a power
> supply does.
>
> Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
> even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
> electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
> harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
> assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.
>
> After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
> remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
> brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
> required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
> so many layers of protection.
>
> But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
> provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
> mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
> 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
> another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
> yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
> extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).
>
> Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
> demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
> measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
> circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
> undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
> Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
> yourself.
>
> Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
> claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
> plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
> Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
> Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
> circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
> still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
> waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
> life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
> protection is provided by the UPS.
>
> If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
> typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
> properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
> throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
> Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
> expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
> protection. They tell half truths so that others will
> *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
> UPSes.
>
> Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
> batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
> defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
> must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
> takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
> numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.
>
> Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
> Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
> must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
> computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
> minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
> counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
> what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
> functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
> even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
> assemblers.
>
> Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
> technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
> power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
> minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
> numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
> A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
> $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
> power supply functions?
>
> Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
> essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
> effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
> the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
> this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
> computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
> necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
> 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
> provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
> no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
> earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
> instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
> transient.
>
> In summary: For effective protection of computer components
> so that even a power supply failure does not damage
> motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
> contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
> Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.
>
> For effective protection of data from blackouts and
> brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
> do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.
>
> So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
> the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
> earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
> appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
> smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
> furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
> effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
> sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
> $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
> motherboard protection? How does that make sense?
>
> jimbo wrote:
>> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
>> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
>> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
>> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 30, 2005 1:30:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

The $multi-million telephone switching computer also
disconnect with every approaching thunderstorm. Millions of
dollars connected to overhead wires everywhere in town. Since
effective protection from lightning is not possible, then they
must disconnect? OR, some people recommend ineffective UPSes
for lightning protection. Why does the telco provide service
during every lightning storm? Because 'whole house'
protection techniques are that effective. Protection that a
plug-in UPS cannot provide. I never unplug during
thunderstorms. I follow thunderstorms on the computer - in
real time. I don't worry about lightning damage because I
don't depend on mythical protection from a plug-in UPS.

By disparaging the protection inside a power supply, Mercury
then says UPS protection as even worse. Numbers were
provided. UPS has how few joules? Again, the numbers. Most
every UPS connects its load (the computer) directly to AC
mains when not in battery backup mode. How fast does that
UPS relay disconnect? Milliseconds. Meanwhile, destructive,
microsecond transients have long since done damage. 300
consecutive and destructive transients could pass through
before that UPS started to isolate the load. Where is the
protection? More damning numbers.

Yes, UPS claims protection. Then we look at the numbers.
Near zero protection is still protection. Just no effective.
And that is the point. Without numbers, then junk science
reasoning will claim UPS protection.

Any protection that works on the power cord is already
inside a power supply. One need only learn industry standard
numbers or read the long list of numeric specs (a hint for
identifying 'good' verses 'dumped' power supplies). Power
supplies contain effective protection. But that protection may
be overwhelmed by major transients (ie lightning). Transients
passes right through UPS - unimpeded. But a 'whole house'
protector earths before a destructive transient can overwhelm
the power supply. So what is a UPS doing? Battery backup in
case of blackouts or extreme brownouts - nothing more.

To claim otherwise, one must provide numbers. For example,
how many 'joules' inside a plug-in UPS? Mercury did not even
provide that number. Where is the earth ground? No earth
ground means no effective protection. Mercury also does not
even mention earthing. Why does that plug-in UPS also avoid
discussing earthing?

Many previously posted reasons demonstrated that UPS does
not provide effective protection. Insufficient joules.
Relay inside UPS cannot switch fast enough. Power supply
already has numerous layers of protection (starting with a
line filter and ending with an overvoltage protector) whereas
the UPS only connects that power supply direct to AC mains.
UPS output so 'dirty' that it may even damage electric motors
whereas computer power supply is so resilient as to even make
'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Power supply must work
100% even when incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity
(voltage sag or brownout). $100 for a UPS compared to $1 per
appliance for the effective 'whole house' protector.

A new reason why that UPS does not provide effective
protection. The destructive transient does not get to
motherboard through power supply (obviously). It uses the
green safety ground wire to bypass UPS; connects transient
direct to motherboard. Those recommending the UPS forget to
mention that UPS transient protector circuits (measured in
joules) shunt a destructive transient into that bypass wire.
What does that transient seek? Earth ground. The UPS
provides a new destructive path to earth via the motherboard -
the bypass wire. What kind of protection is that? Again,
ineffective. One more reason why the 'whole house' protector
is required and why the plug-in UPS is so ineffective.

Claims of UPS protection were made without numbers.
Mercury is encouraged to provide numbers. Start, for example,
with joules. Start, for example, with numbers listed in specs
from that UPS manufacturer. Why do UPS manufacturer specs
have so few numbers? They provide numbers they are required
to provide - such as joules. Their specifications completely
ignore another typically destructive transient so that
consumers will *assume* total protection. Missing numbers.
More damning facts.

The 'whole house' protector does provide protection from all
types of transients. A protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are earthed; building
wide UPSes are earthed; plug-in UPSes are *not* earthed.
Furthermore, the 'whole house' protector also costs tens of
times less money.

We don't unplug for thunderstorms. We install effective
protection not found in plug-in UPSes. Protection defined by
the most critical protection system component: single point
earth ground. Effective protection inside a power supply is
not overwhelmed when properly earthed protector is installed.

Mercury wrote:
> I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
> The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality
> of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the
> computer PSU.
>
> Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential
> magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the
> mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes
> shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major
> electrical storm passes by.
>
> It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge
> protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially
> all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious
> anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one
> facit. ability to service is another.
>
> I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7
> systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to
> an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I
> came in after the event.
>
> Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are
> buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that
> sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor
> that knows his/her stuff.
>
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4248808D.A8E9AE72@hotmail.com...
> > A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
> > a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
> > simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
> > type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
> > 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
> > useful.
> >
> > Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
> > through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
> > DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
> > But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
> > oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
> > voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
> > galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
> > to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
> > overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
> > spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
> > in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
> > provides less protection than what already exists inside a
> > standard power supply - even 30 years ago.
> >
> > Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
> > existing protection and often don't even know what a power
> > supply does.
> >
> > Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
> > even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
> > electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
> > harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
> > assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.
> >
> > After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
> > remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
> > brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
> > required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
> > so many layers of protection.
> >
> > But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
> > provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
> > mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
> > 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
> > another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
> > yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
> > extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).
> >
> > Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
> > demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
> > measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
> > circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
> > undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
> > Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
> > yourself.
> >
> > Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
> > claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
> > plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
> > Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
> > Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
> > circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
> > still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
> > waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
> > life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
> > protection is provided by the UPS.
> >
> > If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
> > typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
> > properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
> > throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
> > Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
> > expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
> > protection. They tell half truths so that others will
> > *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
> > UPSes.
> >
> > Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
> > batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
> > defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
> > must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
> > takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
> > numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.
> >
> > Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
> > Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
> > must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
> > computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
> > minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
> > counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
> > what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
> > functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
> > even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
> > assemblers.
> >
> > Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
> > technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
> > power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
> > minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
> > numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
> > A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
> > $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
> > power supply functions?
> >
> > Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
> > essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
> > effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
> > the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
> > this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
> > computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
> > necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
> > 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
> > provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
> > no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
> > earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
> > instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
> > transient.
> >
> > In summary: For effective protection of computer components
> > so that even a power supply failure does not damage
> > motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
> > contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
> > Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.
> >
> > For effective protection of data from blackouts and
> > brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
> > do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.
> >
> > So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
> > the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
> > earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
> > appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
> > smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
> > furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
> > effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
> > sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
> > $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
> > motherboard protection? How does that make sense?
> >
> > jimbo wrote:
> >> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
> >> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
> >> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
> >> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
March 31, 2005 4:27:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Reread my original post - in that I did not recommend the basic or
intermediate UPS's, only the true online type in which all power runs across
the battery which is isolated from the mains - somewhat - by the charger
circuit.

Where are you? US? Well earthing standards there are different to elsewhere.
Here it is illegal to have an incorrectly wired business or house & these
standards are enforced right thru to the earth wire to the UPS and computer
PSU. Last I knew, only double insulated devices were allowed to not have an
earth wire. These days RCD devices are common (but thats irrelevant). In the
AT computer days you were required here to be a certified electrician before
you could be employed servicing computers due to mains wiring and earthing
requirements.

Certainly the # of joules is important, but it is not as there is always
potential for a larger surge in which case that filter / PSU / UPS /
anything else is no use whatsoever. It comes down to what you can afford to
prepare for.

I always recommend lightning rods and prompt for double checks on the health
of building earth systems - they can get damaged and when they are it is too
late when you find out the hard way. (24x7 systems).

Invariably it comes down to regional probability, requirements, and budget +
Knowledge.

Again, I will state *not* to trust the computer PSU from an electrical surge
perspective. Don't forget that a switch mode PSU is like a tight rope
walker - all is hunky dory so long as there isn't an earthquake. Computer
PSU's are the most fallable part of acomputer next to the HDD. taking 110 or
230v, rectifying it, bunging it through a high voltage / high frequency
transister osicillatorinto a compact torroidal transformer, then 'dumping'
out often raw power via a simple diode / capacitor / sometimes inductor
circuit is crude, however there is a lot of complexity in the controller
electronics as you no doubt know - providing a feedback loop that is
responsive while catering for short circuits etc. is actually one of the
most overlooked examples of (usually) quality design, construction, and
componentry. With all this advanced design and in reality great variety in
quality of performance, I *would not* put any more trust into a computer PSU
than risks indicate one should ! Actually there is no room for trust...

I have read many stats on Computer PSU's but never noticed mention of surge
protection - joules or not.






"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42498FB5.DC81FD1@hotmail.com...
> The $multi-million telephone switching computer also
> disconnect with every approaching thunderstorm. Millions of
> dollars connected to overhead wires everywhere in town. Since
> effective protection from lightning is not possible, then they
> must disconnect? OR, some people recommend ineffective UPSes
> for lightning protection. Why does the telco provide service
> during every lightning storm? Because 'whole house'
> protection techniques are that effective. Protection that a
> plug-in UPS cannot provide. I never unplug during
> thunderstorms. I follow thunderstorms on the computer - in
> real time. I don't worry about lightning damage because I
> don't depend on mythical protection from a plug-in UPS.
>
> By disparaging the protection inside a power supply, Mercury
> then says UPS protection as even worse. Numbers were
> provided. UPS has how few joules? Again, the numbers. Most
> every UPS connects its load (the computer) directly to AC
> mains when not in battery backup mode. How fast does that
> UPS relay disconnect? Milliseconds. Meanwhile, destructive,
> microsecond transients have long since done damage. 300
> consecutive and destructive transients could pass through
> before that UPS started to isolate the load. Where is the
> protection? More damning numbers.
>
> Yes, UPS claims protection. Then we look at the numbers.
> Near zero protection is still protection. Just no effective.
> And that is the point. Without numbers, then junk science
> reasoning will claim UPS protection.
>
> Any protection that works on the power cord is already
> inside a power supply. One need only learn industry standard
> numbers or read the long list of numeric specs (a hint for
> identifying 'good' verses 'dumped' power supplies). Power
> supplies contain effective protection. But that protection may
> be overwhelmed by major transients (ie lightning). Transients
> passes right through UPS - unimpeded. But a 'whole house'
> protector earths before a destructive transient can overwhelm
> the power supply. So what is a UPS doing? Battery backup in
> case of blackouts or extreme brownouts - nothing more.
>
> To claim otherwise, one must provide numbers. For example,
> how many 'joules' inside a plug-in UPS? Mercury did not even
> provide that number. Where is the earth ground? No earth
> ground means no effective protection. Mercury also does not
> even mention earthing. Why does that plug-in UPS also avoid
> discussing earthing?
>
> Many previously posted reasons demonstrated that UPS does
> not provide effective protection. Insufficient joules.
> Relay inside UPS cannot switch fast enough. Power supply
> already has numerous layers of protection (starting with a
> line filter and ending with an overvoltage protector) whereas
> the UPS only connects that power supply direct to AC mains.
> UPS output so 'dirty' that it may even damage electric motors
> whereas computer power supply is so resilient as to even make
> 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Power supply must work
> 100% even when incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity
> (voltage sag or brownout). $100 for a UPS compared to $1 per
> appliance for the effective 'whole house' protector.
>
> A new reason why that UPS does not provide effective
> protection. The destructive transient does not get to
> motherboard through power supply (obviously). It uses the
> green safety ground wire to bypass UPS; connects transient
> direct to motherboard. Those recommending the UPS forget to
> mention that UPS transient protector circuits (measured in
> joules) shunt a destructive transient into that bypass wire.
> What does that transient seek? Earth ground. The UPS
> provides a new destructive path to earth via the motherboard -
> the bypass wire. What kind of protection is that? Again,
> ineffective. One more reason why the 'whole house' protector
> is required and why the plug-in UPS is so ineffective.
>
> Claims of UPS protection were made without numbers.
> Mercury is encouraged to provide numbers. Start, for example,
> with joules. Start, for example, with numbers listed in specs
> from that UPS manufacturer. Why do UPS manufacturer specs
> have so few numbers? They provide numbers they are required
> to provide - such as joules. Their specifications completely
> ignore another typically destructive transient so that
> consumers will *assume* total protection. Missing numbers.
> More damning facts.
>
> The 'whole house' protector does provide protection from all
> types of transients. A protector is only as effective as its
> earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are earthed; building
> wide UPSes are earthed; plug-in UPSes are *not* earthed.
> Furthermore, the 'whole house' protector also costs tens of
> times less money.
>
> We don't unplug for thunderstorms. We install effective
> protection not found in plug-in UPSes. Protection defined by
> the most critical protection system component: single point
> earth ground. Effective protection inside a power supply is
> not overwhelmed when properly earthed protector is installed.
>
> Mercury wrote:
>> I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
>> The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality
>> of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the
>> computer PSU.
>>
>> Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential
>> magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the
>> mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes
>> shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major
>> electrical storm passes by.
>>
>> It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge
>> protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially
>> all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious
>> anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only
>> one
>> facit. ability to service is another.
>>
>> I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7
>> systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending
>> to
>> an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong -
>> I
>> came in after the event.
>>
>> Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they
>> are
>> buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that
>> sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant
>> advisor
>> that knows his/her stuff.
>>
>> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4248808D.A8E9AE72@hotmail.com...
>> > A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
>> > a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay
>> > simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries"
>> > type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other
>> > 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing
>> > useful.
>> >
>> > Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes
>> > through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts
>> > DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated.
>> > But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An
>> > oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC
>> > voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer -
>> > galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted
>> > to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an
>> > overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive
>> > spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard
>> > in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS
>> > provides less protection than what already exists inside a
>> > standard power supply - even 30 years ago.
>> >
>> > Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this
>> > existing protection and often don't even know what a power
>> > supply does.
>> >
>> > Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is
>> > even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small
>> > electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not
>> > harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient -
>> > assuming a bean counter did not select the supply.
>> >
>> > After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line
>> > remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and
>> > brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is
>> > required and already inside that power supply. Look at those
>> > so many layers of protection.
>> >
>> > But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must
>> > provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC
>> > mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only
>> > 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just
>> > another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and
>> > yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for
>> > extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage).
>> >
>> > Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always
>> > demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is
>> > measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical
>> > circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some
>> > undersized power strip protectors have even more joules.
>> > Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number
>> > yourself.
>> >
>> > Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection
>> > claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a
>> > plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection.
>> > Then forget to mention how little that protection really is.
>> > Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection
>> > circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse
>> > still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a
>> > waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a
>> > life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of
>> > protection is provided by the UPS.
>> >
>> > If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that
>> > typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to
>> > properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and
>> > throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules.
>> > Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life
>> > expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim
>> > protection. They tell half truths so that others will
>> > *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in
>> > UPSes.
>> >
>> > Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to
>> > batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is
>> > defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply
>> > must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS
>> > takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those
>> > numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it.
>> >
>> > Where is the real weakness in computer protection?
>> > Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord
>> > must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a
>> > computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the
>> > minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean
>> > counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend
>> > what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply
>> > functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not
>> > even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer
>> > assemblers.
>> >
>> > Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of
>> > technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior
>> > power supplies into this market for greater profit. A
>> > minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of
>> > numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted).
>> > A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least
>> > $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing
>> > power supply functions?
>> >
>> > Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include
>> > essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function
>> > effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But
>> > the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm
>> > this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate'
>> > computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so
>> > necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection
>> > 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS
>> > provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has
>> > no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to
>> > earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So
>> > instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive
>> > transient.
>> >
>> > In summary: For effective protection of computer components
>> > so that even a power supply failure does not damage
>> > motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must
>> > contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago.
>> > Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies.
>> >
>> > For effective protection of data from blackouts and
>> > brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts
>> > do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted.
>> >
>> > So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm
>> > the computer's internal protection, we install and properly
>> > earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other
>> > appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI,
>> > smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine,
>> > furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for
>> > effective hardware protection. That means a minimally
>> > sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector.
>> > $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective
>> > motherboard protection? How does that make sense?
>> >
>> > jimbo wrote:
>> >> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
>> >> P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m
>> >> P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts
>> >> around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 4:27:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance
solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the
"true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient
bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in
UPS is not effective.

What does that UPS do that the power supply does not?
Nothing. The plug-in UPS does not even claim those 1000+
volts isolation. Power supplies must withstand 1000+ volts as
even required by industry and Intel specs. Robust protection
inside a power supply - that still requires a 'whole house'
protector. $500 for a true online type UPS provides no
additional protection. $500 and the 'whole house' protector
is still necessary? What kind of protection is that?
Mythical.

An eleventh reason why that true online type UPS is not
effective. Is that plug-in UPS going to stop, block, or
absorb what miles of sky could not? Are silly one inch parts
(those parts that are woefully undersized; too few joules)
going to stop what miles of air could not? Of course not.
And yet 'somehow' a true online type UPS does just that?
Nonsense. How many more reasons demonstrate what that UPS
specification also says by omission. It does not provide
effective transient protection.

No earth ground means no effective protection - everywhere
on earth. Even the true online UPS is not earthed (safety
ground is electrically different from earthing; why the number
'less than 10 foot' is important). Therefore 'true online
type' does not claim to protect from the typically destructive
transient. Obviously. Protection is only as effective as that
earthing connection. How many more reasons need be posted?

Again, no numbers to demonstrate claims for this true online
type UPS. No numbers means junk science reasoning. That
UPS provides mythical hardware protection. Protection must
factually exist. That means numbers. That also means
earthing. "True online type" does not even discuss earthing -
for good reason.

How many joules in that "true online type" UPS? Never
provided. $500 for ineffective protection - or $1 per for
effective protection from a 'whole house' protector. Which
makes more sense? Numbers again are damning.

Mercury wrote:
> Reread my original post - in that I did not recommend the basic or
> intermediate UPS's, only the true online type in which all power
> runs across the battery which is isolated from the mains - somewhat
> - by the charger circuit.
>
> Where are you? US? Well earthing standards there are different to
> elsewhere. Here it is illegal to have an incorrectly wired business
> or house & these standards are enforced right thru to the earth wire
> to the UPS and computer PSU. Last I knew, only double insulated
> devices were allowed to not have an earth wire. These days RCD
> devices are common (but thats irrelevant). In the AT computer days
> you were required here to be a certified electrician before
> you could be employed servicing computers due to mains wiring and
> earthing requirements.
>
> Certainly the # of joules is important, but it is not as there is
> always potential for a larger surge in which case that filter / PSU
> / UPS / anything else is no use whatsoever. It comes down to what
> you can afford to prepare for.
>
> I always recommend lightning rods and prompt for double checks on
> the health of building earth systems - they can get damaged and
> when they are it is too late when you find out the hard way.
> (24x7 systems).
>
> Invariably it comes down to regional probability, requirements,
> and budget + Knowledge.
>
> Again, I will state *not* to trust the computer PSU from an
> electrical surge perspective. Don't forget that a switch mode PSU
> is like a tight rope walker - all is hunky dory so long as there
> isn't an earthquake. Computer PSU's are the most fallable part of
> acomputer next to the HDD. taking 110 or 230v, rectifying it,
> bunging it through a high voltage / high frequency transister
> osicillatorinto a compact torroidal transformer, then 'dumping'
> out often raw power via a simple diode / capacitor / sometimes
> inductor circuit is crude, however there is a lot of complexity
> in the controller electronics as you no doubt know - providing a
> feedback loop that is responsive while catering for short circuits
> etc. is actually one of the most overlooked examples of (usually)
> quality design, construction, and componentry. With all this
> advanced design and in reality great variety in quality of
> performance, I *would not* put any more trust into a computer
> PSU than risks indicate one should ! Actually there is no room
> for trust...
>
> I have read many stats on Computer PSU's but never noticed
> mention of surge protection - joules or not.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 4:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
> Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance
> solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the
> "true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient
> bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in
> UPS is not effective.
>

And exactly how does your "miracle" $1 part allow my computer to keep
working 30 minutes after the local grid goes down? UPS systems are not
bought to make the power going into the computer "safe", but to allow
the computer to keep working even when the power grid is not.


> What does that UPS do that the power supply does not?
> Nothing. The plug-in UPS does not even claim those 1000+
> volts isolation. Power supplies must withstand 1000+ volts as
> even required by industry and Intel specs. Robust protection
> inside a power supply - that still requires a 'whole house'
> protector. $500 for a true online type UPS provides no
> additional protection. $500 and the 'whole house' protector
> is still necessary? What kind of protection is that?
> Mythical.
>

And how often do power supplies die in a puff of smoke? Far more often
than your theoretical claims would have it. If they were so well built
they would never fail, there would be no heartbreak of psoriasis, etc.

<snip further rantings>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 4:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:424AEE64.C3A8BF11@hotmail.com...
> Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance
> solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the
> "true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient
> bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in
> UPS is not effective.
>
> What does that UPS do that the power supply does not?
> Nothing. The plug-in UPS does not even claim those 1000+
> volts isolation. Power supplies must withstand 1000+ volts as
> even required by industry and Intel specs. Robust protection
> inside a power supply - that still requires a 'whole house'
> protector. $500 for a true online type UPS provides no
> additional protection. $500 and the 'whole house' protector
> is still necessary? What kind of protection is that?
> Mythical.
>
>
I'm pretty sure I remember you from a similar discussion 3 or 4 years back.

Serious questions: could you provide references, for those in the US 1) that
give a quantitative analysis of you r summary of plug-in surge-protector
performance? 2) That give a summary of whole-house surge protection?

I looked into the latter years back, and found nothing -- no companies that
offered a solution, and local electricians seemed puzzled by inquiries.
Perhaps I just didn't know the correct terms. The few on-line references I
found were light on science, and high on innuendo and supercilious
condemnation.

Like others, I'm mainly interested in a UPS ability to switch to emergency
power when the grid goes down. The surge protection part of the UPS is
fairly cheap, comppared to the power protection. I also surge-protect the
lines that go through my attic and connect distant PCs, because some have
the view that secondary induction of current in such lines is probably more
common than desttruction from direct lightning hits.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 4:28:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

If you think a surge protector somewhere in the line
provides protection, then you are assuming the protector is
stopping, blocking, or absorbing surges. IOW they got you to
worship the myth.

Another myth are all those other interior surges from
refrigerator, etc. If they existed, then we all trooped weekly
the the hardware store to replace dimmer switches and GFCIs -
even before the PC existed. Why did those transients not
exist then and now exist? Myths. And again, any such
transient is made completely irrelevant by protection already
inside the appliance. Only the 'earthquake' type surges
overwhelm internal protection - which is why the 'whole house'
protector is so effective. Which is why the 'whole house'
protector is even installed, for free, by your telco where
their wire enters your building.

You asked for sources. Today's reading is but a sampling.
'Today' because you may be reading all day.

A benchmark in protection is Polyphaser. Notice their app
notes don't discuss a product line. Polyphaser is about real
protection. They discuss earthing - extensively:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.aspx
Another real world provider of hardware protection also
provides extensive app notes:
http://www.mtlsurgetechnologies.com/downloads/tans/inde...
This figure from an industry professional demonstrates the
concept. Note that destructive transients enter even via
underground wires. Each of two structures has it own single
point earth ground:

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tnc...
And a more complex technical paper with numbers:

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tnfep...
A second paper that is easier for laymen to read:

http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tnfep...

A utility provides further description of basic concepts:
(the bad, ugly and good, left to right)
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

Figure from the National Institute of Standards and
Technology demonstrate how multiple earthing points would
contribute to damage of a fax machine:
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
Another from Polyphaser demonstrates same type damage from an
incoming buried wire:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_PEN1028.asp
> Lightning strikes somewhere across the street close to the
> below grade West cable vault. ... The first line of defense
> is the telco protection panel, but the panel must be connected
> to a low resistance / inductance ground. There was no adequate
> ground available in the telephone room.



Examples of numerous earthing methods so that cell phone
electronics routinely suffer direct lightning strike without
damage:
(see ground network on page 14)
http://www.leminstruments.com/pdf/LEGP.pdf

http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/spdrefman/spdrefman.pdf
Fundamentals on Lightning Protection Grounding and Surge
Suppression
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/grounding.htm
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/basics.htm
http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground3.htm

Some testimony from industry professionals with extensive
experience:
http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm
See Section 6.4: WHEN SHOULD YOU WORRY ABOUT LIGHTNING?
> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to
> ground. Once a threatening surge is detected, a lightning
> protection device grounds the incoming signal connection
> point of the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting
> the threatening surge on a path-of-least resistance
> (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
> Any lightning protection device must be composed of two
> "subsystems," a switch which is essentially some type of
> switching circuitry and a good ground connection-to allo
> dissipation of the surge energy.

http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
> 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
> lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning
> and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly
> expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning
> strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime
> from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we
> went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the power
> company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
> to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
> strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct
> strike damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly
> simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you
> *must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all
> ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for
> the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance*
> path rather than just a low ohm DC path.

Sun Microsystems also describes this widely understood
concept (except here where those without numbers would instead
attack this poster):
Planning guide for Sun Server room
Section 5.4.7 Lightning Protection (Adobe page 89):
http://www.sun.com/servers/white-papers/dc-planning-gui...
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted.
> The plans for the data center should be thoroughly reviewed to
> identify any paths for surge entry into the data center. Surge
> arrestors can be designed into the system to help mitigate the
> potential for lightning damage within the data center. These
> should divert the power of the surge by providing a path to
> ground for the surge energy. Protection should be placed on
> both the primary and secondary side of the service transformer.
> It is also necessary to protect against surges through the
> communications lines. The specific design of the lightning
> protection system for the data center will be dependent on the
> design of the building and utilities and existing protection
> measures.


Above discuss the secondary protection system. Homeowner
must also inspect his primary protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Electronic transient damage is typically from external
events. In simpler terms, every wire entering the appliance
is connected to a large 'antenna' system that is also on
utility poles. Those AC utility and telephone wires are no
different than antennas connected to communication system
(when discussing protection). And so we learn from those who
most often suffer direct strikes without transistor damage.
Some testimonies on protection effectiveness and the
principles that make transistor protection effective:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm

http://www.eham.net/articles/6848?ehamsid=61915ecd56a94...
Electrical Code vs. Good RF Grounding by K9KJM on 22
November 22 2003
> Those who say "nothing will withstand a direct lightning strike"
> are very misinformed. My towers take direct lightning hits most
> every big storm. So do most all tall commercial towers. With NO
> damage!

Another electrical engineer who I am told is highly regarded
in the stereo industry:

http://www.svconline.com/mag/avinstall_surge_protection...
> The real problem is the haphazard use of common all-mode
> protectors at AC outlets or outlet strips. In many cases, this
> practice causes either system noise problems or hardware damage.
> ... The hardware damage does not usually occur in the power
> supply, where you would expect it, but in the signal I/O
> interfaces that connect to the outside world.
> ...
> the ground wires may be quite long. Most transient over-voltages
> are high-frequency events, having most of their energy well
> above 100 kHz. At these frequencies, long wires, regardless of
> their gauge, have high impedance and will develop extremely high
> voltage drops when carrying the high current pulses created by
> MOV clamping. ... This voltage is likely to reduce interface
> circuitry in the computer, printer or both to silicon vapor.
> More frequent low-voltage spikes (down to the low-current MOV
> clamp of 300 V or so) will still cause high-current pulses to
> flow in the same loop. These smaller noise spikes between the
> grounds will cause errors or lockup.
> ...
> The absolute best place to guard against incoming spikes and
> surges is at the service entry panel or a sub-panel that
> powers everything in an interconnected system.

Too many go to 'hyped' surge protector and UPS companies to
find facts. You know their names. The only (and completely
ineffective) protectors sold in Staples, Sears, Office Max,
K-Mart, Target, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Best Buy, and
Wal-Mart will not provide technical facts about protection.
They are selling protectors that effectively have NO earth
ground connection. I have simply provided a scattering of
real world sources. Let me know if you want tomorrow's
reading. Notice the person who has sources also posted
numbers. But then the person who posts reality in
confrontation to popular myth - the naive will always believe
myths over numbers.

In the meantime, electricians will often be puzzled. They
know what code requires and little about why. Electricians
are only technicians. They only need know code requirements
for human safety. There is no requirement for transistor
safety. We still build new homes as if the transistor did not
exist. Concepts of wire *impedance* are as completely foreign
to electricians as to some here who recommend a plug-in UPS.
Electricians are concerned with wire *resistance*. Surge
protection is about wire *impedance* and about earthing beyond
what is required by code (beyond what electricians need
know). So yes, electricians are not knowledgeable sources and
will not be until we have codes requiring transistor
protection.

Surprisingly, the cable companies recently began teaching
their installers the simple concepts of transistor safety.
And yet still I heard about one who 'earthed' the cable in a
porch flower box.

Real world protectors are sold by serious electrical
manufacturers - Square D, GE, Leviton, Intermatic, Cutler
Hammer, Siemens, Furse, etc. 'Whole house' protectors from
some above manufacturers are sold in better stores such as
Home Depot and Lowes. Effective protection for about $1 per
protected appliance. Protection based upon principles
provided above - and in tomorrow's reading list should you be
interested.

Just more answers about protecting that motherboard. Those
plug-in manufacturers will discuss nothing that harms their
'sales based upon half truths'. In the real world, protection
is only as effective as the earth ground. To others,
protection is only found in the first product promoted by
propaganda.

It is blunt. Some may be insulted. But honesty (not
political correctness) is the point of this post.

"H.W. Stockman" wrote:
> I'm pretty sure I remember you from a similar discussion 3 or
> 4 years back.
>
> Serious questions: could you provide references, for those in
> the US 1) that give a quantitative analysis of you r summary
> of plug-in surge-protector performance? 2) That give a summary
> of whole-house surge protection?
>
> I looked into the latter years back, and found nothing -- no
> companies that offered a solution, and local electricians
> seemed puzzled by inquiries. Perhaps I just didn't know the
> correct terms. The few on-line references I found were light
> on science, and high on innuendo and supercilious condemnation.
>
> Like others, I'm mainly interested in a UPS ability to switch
> to emergency power when the grid goes down. The surge
> protection part of the UPS is fairly cheap, comppared to the
> power protection. I also surge-protect the lines that go
> through my attic and connect distant PCs, because some have
> the view that secondary induction of current in such lines
> is probably more common than desttruction from direct
> lightning hits.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 2:17:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:17:25 GMT, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>, "H.W.
Stockman" <stockman3@earth-REMOVE_THIS-link.net> wrote:
>
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:424AEE64.C3A8BF11@hotmail.com...
> > Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance
> > solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the
> > "true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient
> > bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in
> > UPS is not effective.
> >
[snip]
> >
> I'm pretty sure I remember you from a similar discussion 3 or 4 years back.
>
[snip]

After now seeing the later portions of the thread, it has become abundantly
clear that "w_tom" is a troll, subtype: frothing loon.

> Serious questions: could you provide references, for those in the US 1)
> that give a quantitative analysis of you r summary of plug-in
> surge-protector performance? 2) That give a summary of whole-house surge
> protection?
>
[snip]

I can't cite (or rather, am not willing to chase down at the moment) any
definitive references; but I can answer your question in broad terms.

Virtually all "plug-in surge-protectors" are based on Metal Oxide Varistors
(MOVs), sometimes bypassed by small capacitors (a few "high end" models also
include chokes in series with the AC lines; but these have become
exceptionally rare over the past several years, probably due to cost). MOVs
work sort of like a cross between a Zener diode and a resistor, by
absorbing/shunting current when a pre-defined "avalanche voltage" is exceeded.
They're cheap, and can react very quickly; so at first blush they seem to make
a good choice for this application -- except for one major Achilles's Heel:
They also share characteristics of both lightbulbs and fuses: IOW, they work
by gradually wearing themselves out (on the smaller spikes) or by silently
sacrificing themselves (for the larger spikes). The MOVs typically used in
"plug-in surge-protectors" start to clamp at around 165V, which is generally
"good enough" for most loads (IOW, most of the devices you would try to
"protect" with one of these things can inherently withstand at least that much
overvoltage, at least for some shortish period of time). And they will "live
through" surges of up to a few hundred volts or maybe even a few thousand
volts (as long as those surges don't last too long). But when a *really* big
spike (such as might be induced by a nearby lightning strike, or even a
particularly sloppy grid-switch by your power company) comes along, they
effectively go "poof*, and become open circuits -- and your "surge-protector"
is now simply an extension cord. Some of the better models of such "plug-in
surge-protectors" used to include one or more little neon lamps wired in such
a way that if/when the light goes out, you know the device has effectively
died. But this feature also seems to have dried up of late.

Now, in contrast to this, "whole-house surge protectors" come in two basic
flavors. Many of the more recently marketed models are essentially just
beefed-up versions of the MOV-based plug-in types. But the traditional
"whole-house surge protectors" (sometimes called "lightning arrestors") use a
completely different type of technology: basically a "spark gap". These units
are not subject to the foibles of the MOV-based units, and so will generally
last indefinitely; but they also cannot be effective against the "smaller"
spikes and surges that the MOV-based units take in stride.

Hence, the *best* solution is a combination of both types -- a "spark gap"
type suppressor hard-wired into your service panel (or, sometimes, the meter
box), *and* MOV-based surge suppressors at each critical point of use. The
former will help protect the latter, and the latter will help protect your
equipment. It's hardly a perfect solution; but it's probably the most
practical one.

> Like others, I'm mainly interested in a UPS ability to switch to emergency
> power when the grid goes down. The surge protection part of the UPS is
> fairly cheap, comppared to the power protection.
[snip]

A decent UPS can do far more than that. It will also help ameliorate a wide
variety of other power-line ills, such as voltage sags, noise, weird frequency
aberrations, etc. -- all of which are becoming more common every day, for the
reasons I cited in my earlier f'up. But they should still be "fronted" with
at least a cheap MOV-based "surge suppressor", simply because it's easier and
cheaper to replace that when it dies than to repair the UPS if/when *its* MOVs
get fried.

> I also surge-protect the
> lines that go through my attic and connect distant PCs, because some have
> the view that secondary induction of current in such lines is probably more
> common than desttruction from direct lightning hits.
>

That probably depends at least in part on your specific situation; but I can't
see how it could hurt.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under
47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 2:17:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:30:46 -0500, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Correct. Double conversion would provide protection, but IF
> a destructive transient was type of transient they claim to
> protect from. A destructive longitudinal mode transient is
> not seen by UPS battery and inverter as transient passes right
> through UPS to damage computer.
[snip]

You are now spouting pure nonsense gibberish. For example: The term
"longitudinal mode transient" is utterly meaningless (at least in this
context).

Please resume your meds.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under
47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 4:34:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Jay notes that MOVs do degrade with use. And then we apply
the numbers he forgot. A typical plug-in UPS may be only 345
joules. It will use up to 230 joules and sometimes only as
little as 115 joules during the transient. Let's say this
protector can survive two 'same size' transients. Therefore,
even a minimally sized 1000 joule 'whole house' protector
(also described as the $1 per protected appliance solution),
will withstand on the order of 300+ same sized surges. 300
verses 2? As joules increase, protector life expectancy
increases exponentially. This made obvious from MOV
manufacturer data sheets - the numbers. What does Jay
routinely forget to provide? The numbers.

Why not increase joules inside that UPS? They are not
providing effective protection. Obviously - no earth ground.
They only claim to provide some protection. Near zero
protection is enough to claim protection.

Once we apply numbers, then MOV degradation is a problem
only in undersized protectors (ie plug-in UPS and power
strip). If the MOV goes "poof* , well that protector was
so grossly undersized as to abandon transistors to a
transient. "Poof* means a grossly undersized and totally
ineffective protector. Ineffective protectors (power strip
and UPS) are made obvious by undersized MOVs - too few joules.

MOVs (properly sized) degrade in normal use. MOVs
vaporize when the grossly undersized. PC Magazine noted these
serious safety problems in two issues in the 1980s. Fires
from insufficiently sized power strip protectors created a
safety standard - UL1449. A protector can completely fail -
provide no protection during certification - and still get the
UL1449 approval rating. Others will imply that UL1449 means
effective transistor protection. It does not. UL is only
concerned that human life is protected.

The UPS will "ameliorate a wide variety of other power-line
ills, such as voltage sags, noise, weird frequency
aberrations, etc. -" And then we again apply spec numbers
from Intel. Power supply design makes all those 'ills'
irrelevant. Weird frequency aberrations? That is a
salesman's expression. In the meantime, power supply that
work on 60 Hz power also works when frequency drop to and
below 50 hertz. Where is the beef? What noise? Power supply
contain line filters to meet FCC regulations that make noise
irrelevant. Line filters that Jay said do not exist.
Furthermore, noise does not cause hardware damage. Voltage
sags? Incandescant lamps must drop to 40% intensity and still
a power supply must provide 100% power. This demanded by
numbers in Intel specs for computer power supplies. None of
these 'ills' are destructive to hardware. So what does that
$500 UPS provide?

Jay is demonstrating salesman sophistication using words
like 'weird frequency aberrations" that have no engineering
meaning. "Ameliorate" that makes him sound educated. And yet
still he provides no numbers.

A UPS will not protect the Original Poster's motherboard.
But it does "ameliorate weird frequency aberrations"? Well,
yes. If you buy the $500 UPS. The typically plug-in UPS for
$100 does not "ameliorate" and does protect data from
blackouts and brownouts. Protecting data is why we install a
plug-in UPS.

"Jay T. Blocksom" wrote:
> After now seeing the later portions of the thread, it has become abundantly
> clear that "w_tom" is a troll, subtype: frothing loon.
> ...
>
> I can't cite (or rather, am not willing to chase down at the moment) any
> definitive references; but I can answer your question in broad terms.
>
> Virtually all "plug-in surge-protectors" are based on Metal Oxide Varistors
> (MOVs), sometimes bypassed by small capacitors (a few "high end" models also
> include chokes in series with the AC lines; but these have become
> exceptionally rare over the past several years, probably due to cost). MOVs
> work sort of like a cross between a Zener diode and a resistor, by
> absorbing/shunting current when a pre-defined "avalanche voltage" is exceeded.
> They're cheap, and can react very quickly; so at first blush they seem to make
> a good choice for this application -- except for one major Achilles's Heel:
> They also share characteristics of both lightbulbs and fuses: IOW, they work
> by gradually wearing themselves out (on the smaller spikes) or by silently
> sacrificing themselves (for the larger spikes). The MOVs typically used in
> "plug-in surge-protectors" start to clamp at around 165V, which is generally
> "good enough" for most loads (IOW, most of the devices you would try to
> "protect" with one of these things can inherently withstand at least that much
> overvoltage, at least for some shortish period of time). And they will "live
> through" surges of up to a few hundred volts or maybe even a few thousand
> volts (as long as those surges don't last too long). But when a *really* big
> spike (such as might be induced by a nearby lightning strike, or even a
> particularly sloppy grid-switch by your power company) comes along, they
> effectively go "poof*, and become open circuits -- and your "surge-protector"
> is now simply an extension cord. Some of the better models of such "plug-in
> surge-protectors" used to include one or more little neon lamps wired in such
> a way that if/when the light goes out, you know the device has effectively
> died. But this feature also seems to have dried up of late.
>
> Now, in contrast to this, "whole-house surge protectors" come in two basic
> flavors. Many of the more recently marketed models are essentially just
> beefed-up versions of the MOV-based plug-in types. But the traditional
> "whole-house surge protectors" (sometimes called "lightning arrestors") use a
> completely different type of technology: basically a "spark gap". These units
> are not subject to the foibles of the MOV-based units, and so will generally
> last indefinitely; but they also cannot be effective against the "smaller"
> spikes and surges that the MOV-based units take in stride.
>
> Hence, the *best* solution is a combination of both types -- a "spark gap"
> type suppressor hard-wired into your service panel (or, sometimes, the meter
> box), *and* MOV-based surge suppressors at each critical point of use. The
> former will help protect the latter, and the latter will help protect your
> equipment. It's hardly a perfect solution; but it's probably the most
> practical one.
> ...
>
> A decent UPS can do far more than that. It will also help ameliorate a wide
> variety of other power-line ills, such as voltage sags, noise, weird frequency
> aberrations, etc. -- all of which are becoming more common every day, for the
> reasons I cited in my earlier f'up. But they should still be "fronted" with
> at least a cheap MOV-based "surge suppressor", simply because it's easier and
> cheaper to replace that when it dies than to repair the UPS if/when *its* MOVs
> get fried.
> ...
>
> That probably depends at least in part on your specific situation; but I can't
> see how it could hurt.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 4:55:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Jay - who claims transformers provide no galvanic isolation
- also denies the longitudinal mode transient. He must avoid
discussing the various types of transients to promote myths.
Longitudinal mode transients damage hardware. A most famous
longitudinal mode transient is lightning. But Jay tells us is
does not exist? Clearly he must know. He posts no numbers.

Other damning facts that Jay must avoid. He ignored the
wire that carries a destructive transient around the UPS and
into motherboard. He avoids mentioning those pathetically
undersized MOVs that are the surge protection circuit in
UPSes. And most damning of all, he still avoids any
discussion about earthing. Protection is about earthing as
even Franklin demonstrated in 1752. So Jay must avoid earthing
discussions. Those plug-in UPSes have no effective earthing.
No earth ground means no effective protection. So Jay instead
denies longitudinal mode transients - an electrical concept
taught to first year engineering students.

Jay's technical knowledge is symptomatic of what is taught
in salesmen seminars. Often referred to elsewhere as a
"PowerPoint" education. "A transformer has *nothing* to do
with "galvanic isolation", ..." would never be posted by the
technically educated. His is salesman science.

Others are cautioned about 'experts' who can't post
numbers. No numbers means junk science reasoning. The
'smoking gun' - that transformers don't provide galvanic
isolation - says Jay has insufficient technical knowledge.
This is first year EE stuff. Instead he posts classic
salesman propaganda. Reality: a UPS provides no useful
motherboard protection. It claims to do what already exists
inside the power supply.

Meanwhile a transformer is installed in all electronic
appliances that require galvanic isolation so that the user
does not get electrocuted by AC mains. Why? Jay tells us
that transformers don't provide this isolation. But then he
just knows a $500 UPS will protect a motherboard - without
that essential connection to earth ground. No earth ground
means no effective protection. UPS will ignore this fact to
claim protection from transients that don't typically do the
damage.

"Jay T. Blocksom" wrote:
> You are now spouting pure nonsense gibberish. For example: The term
> "longitudinal mode transient" is utterly meaningless (at least in this
> context).
>
> Please resume your meds.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
March 31, 2005 10:21:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom:

Are you retarded?

Cyberpower CPS1500AVR here. You just keep on trusting your PSU, idiot.




"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:424C3978.13CFBBAD@hotmail.com...
> Jay - who claims transformers provide no galvanic isolation
> - also denies the longitudinal mode transient. He must avoid
> discussing the various types of transients to promote myths.
> Longitudinal mode transients damage hardware. A most famous
> longitudinal mode transient is lightning. But Jay tells us is
> does not exist? Clearly he must know. He posts no numbers.
>
> Other damning facts that Jay must avoid. He ignored the
> wire that carries a destructive transient around the UPS and
> into motherboard. He avoids mentioning those pathetically
> undersized MOVs that are the surge protection circuit in
> UPSes. And most damning of all, he still avoids any
> discussion about earthing. Protection is about earthing as
> even Franklin demonstrated in 1752. So Jay must avoid earthing
> discussions. Those plug-in UPSes have no effective earthing.
> No earth ground means no effective protection. So Jay instead
> denies longitudinal mode transients - an electrical concept
> taught to first year engineering students.
>
> Jay's technical knowledge is symptomatic of what is taught
> in salesmen seminars. Often referred to elsewhere as a
> "PowerPoint" education. "A transformer has *nothing* to do
> with "galvanic isolation", ..." would never be posted by the
> technically educated. His is salesman science.
>
> Others are cautioned about 'experts' who can't post
> numbers. No numbers means junk science reasoning. The
> 'smoking gun' - that transformers don't provide galvanic
> isolation - says Jay has insufficient technical knowledge.
> This is first year EE stuff. Instead he posts classic
> salesman propaganda. Reality: a UPS provides no useful
> motherboard protection. It claims to do what already exists
> inside the power supply.
>
> Meanwhile a transformer is installed in all electronic
> appliances that require galvanic isolation so that the user
> does not get electrocuted by AC mains. Why? Jay tells us
> that transformers don't provide this isolation. But then he
> just knows a $500 UPS will protect a motherboard - without
> that essential connection to earth ground. No earth ground
> means no effective protection. UPS will ignore this fact to
> claim protection from transients that don't typically do the
> damage.
>
> "Jay T. Blocksom" wrote:
> > You are now spouting pure nonsense gibberish. For example: The term
> > "longitudinal mode transient" is utterly meaningless (at least in this
> > context).
> >
> > Please resume your meds.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
April 1, 2005 11:00:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:55:04 -0500, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jay - who claims transformers provide no galvanic isolation
> - also denies the longitudinal mode transient. He must avoid
> discussing the various types of transients to promote myths.
> Longitudinal mode transients damage hardware. A most famous
> longitudinal mode transient is lightning.
[snip]

You think so, eh?

Then please explain why:

<http://search.yahoo.com/search?p="longitudinal+mode+transient"+lightning>

Produces ZERO hits, and why the ONLY hit produced by:

<http://www.google.com/search?q="longitudinal+mode+transient"+lightning&btnG=Google+Search>

is <http://www.talkaboutvideo.com/group/alt.tv.tech.hdtv/me...;

which is a WWW-based Usenet mirror/archive of your own post to
<alt.tv.tech.hdtv> on [Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:56:14 -0400] (Message-ID:
<4100541E.3D97C86C@hotmail.com>]

Ditto for:

<http://web.ask.com/web?q="longitudinal+mode+transient"+lightning>

which produces ONLY <http://www2.usenetarchive.org/Dir88/File532.html&gt;, which
is yet another Usenet mirror/archive, this time of someone else quoting your
earlier rant on <alt.tv.tech.hdtv>.

So... If this term is so accepted and so "famous", then why is it not
documented ANYWHERE, except in your own fertile imagination? Hmmm?

I repeat: Get back under your bridge and resume your meds.


--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under
47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
April 1, 2005 6:02:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Jay - who claims that transformers don't provide galvanic
isolation - now has a problem. He has been caught and exposed
as a 'salesman scientist'. He cannot support, with basic
electrical principles or simple science, the premise that a
UPS provides protection from the destructive type of
transient. He does not even understand the various types of
transients - first year EE stuff. So he goes looking in web
sites searching for a definition of longitudinal transients.
Its not difficult, Jay. Its a transient that seeks ground on
any or all wires.

Basic electrical concepts about how a UPS works; he does not
know. So he seeks others who also believe his 'UPS
protection' myths in a hope that will vindicate him. Jay, if
your UPS provides protection, then you can cite the
manufacturers specs - the numbers - that make that claim?
Apparently not. You could explain how a destructive transient
does not take the bypass wire around UPS directly into
motherboard? Obviously not. You could provide the number of
joules for that protector circuit and demonstrate why it is
not undersized? Those are numbers. Jay, as a junk scientist,
doesn't do numbers and does not grasp basic electrical
principles.

Instead, Jay goes looking for others who also hope that a
UPS could be effective surge protector. Clearly another
misguided soul would prove him correct. And then again, he
need not provide numbers, manufacturer specs, nor understand
basic EE concepts (such as protection inside a power supply as
required by industry specs). Maybe then we will forget that
Jay used his "PowerPoint" education to post this whopper:
> A transformer has *nothing* to do with "galvanic isolation", ...

In the meantime, posted from reliable and responsible
sources that include basic engineering concepts, application
notes from industry sources, Sun Microsystems own installation
guidelines, other industry professional testimony, and even
what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752 - most posted with
numbers - is a bottom line fact. A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground. No earth ground, such as in
Jay's UPS, means no effective protection. So Jay avoids even
touching the word 'earth'.

This, of course, assumes basic knowledge of things as simple
as longitudinal transients. We will not find that knowledge
from Jay who does not even cite manufacturer specifications to
support his premise. Jay even reports that UPS will stop,
block, or absorb what three miles of sky could not. Three
miles of sky? Too many numbers. Instead he attacks this
messenger rather than address his technical bewilderment.

Jay - what UPS manufacturer did you say you were a salesman
for? Again Jay posts no numbers just like a good salesman
does when promoting mythical functions that manufacturer's
specifications do not even claim. Instead he must post
insults - without numbers - as proof of his credibility.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
As with his plug-in UPS recommendations, no earth ground means
no effective protection. Concepts such as earthing,
longitudinal transients, galvanic isolation, and the numbers -
Jay does not need any of that. Posting insults is proof
sufficient.

"Jay T. Blocksom" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:55:04 -0500, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
> w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Jay - who claims transformers provide no galvanic isolation
> > - also denies the longitudinal mode transient. He must avoid
> > discussing the various types of transients to promote myths.
> > Longitudinal mode transients damage hardware. A most famous
> > longitudinal mode transient is lightning.
> [snip]
>
> You think so, eh?
>
> Then please explain why:
>
> <http://search.yahoo.com/search?p="longitudinal+mode+transient"+lightning>
>
> Produces ZERO hits, and why the ONLY hit produced by:
>
> <http://www.google.com/search?q="longitudinal+mode+transient"+lightning&btnG=Google+Search>
>
> is <http://www.talkaboutvideo.com/group/alt.tv.tech.hdtv/me...;
>
> which is a WWW-based Usenet mirror/archive of your own post to
> <alt.tv.tech.hdtv> on [Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:56:14 -0400] (Message-ID:
> <4100541E.3D97C86C@hotmail.com>]
>
> Ditto for:
>
> <http://web.ask.com/web?q="longitudinal+mode+transient"+lightning>
>
> which produces ONLY <http://www2.usenetarchive.org/Dir88/File532.html&gt;, which
> is yet another Usenet mirror/archive, this time of someone else quoting your
> earlier rant on <alt.tv.tech.hdtv>.
>
> So... If this term is so accepted and so "famous", then why is it not
> documented ANYWHERE, except in your own fertile imagination? Hmmm?
>
> I repeat: Get back under your bridge and resume your meds.
April 1, 2005 10:54:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Nuh, live in a farady cage. No more problems then. They work so well that
linesmen here routinely service a local 650kv DC line in faraday suits will
hanging off a helicopter.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
April 1, 2005 10:54:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:54:04 +1200, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
"Mercury" <me@spam.com> wrote:
>
> Nuh, live in a farady cage. No more problems then.
[snip]

Heh... Good one.

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under
47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
April 3, 2005 7:53:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:02:14 -0500, in <alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus>,
w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[snip 100+ lines of top-posted incoherent ad hominem ranting and
gratuitous full-quoting]

Ooops... Nothing left.

(And you never answered my questions.)

--

Jay T. Blocksom
--------------------------------
Appropriate Technology, Inc.
usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under
47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
a b V Motherboard
April 8, 2005 2:33:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

I'm running a 2+ year old APC BP-1400. I just put a new set of battery's in
it and in my area (SW USA) due to storms it's saved me 10-12 times in the
past year+ on my old P-III and on this system. Basic same power supply.
I have:
Intel 3.2
X-120 Cooling
Asus P4C800-E Deluxe
ATI 9600 Pro 128MB (about to change to a Nvidia)
1024 MB Kingston
Audigy 2 ZS
4 HD (80,160,160,120)
3 DVD-RW/CD-RW/CD-RW
ED 3d glasses,
HP photoprinter,
KDS 19
webcam
T7700 7.1 speakers


"jimbo" <jimmy7forever@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_dqdndI8GrmcM9nfRVn-2A@comcast.com...
> What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus
P4800E-Deluxe.
> I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and other
components
> during the many summer brownouts around here.
> I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS.
>
> Jimbo
>
>
!