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CPU Temp: 13C

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January 30, 2005 2:14:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

I have just updated the drivers for my MSI K8T Neo mobo, updated my BIOS and
updated the MSI "CoreCenter" monitoring software.

CoreCenter and the BIOS both give me temperature readings for my CPU. Before
the updates the BIOS and CoreCenter reported my CPU as having temperatures
of between 39C and 51C depending on the room temp and what I was doing. This
seemed a fairly normal temperature and I was satisfied with it.

However since the updates my CPU temperature has went way down according to
this software. When I go into the BIOS it's reporting the temp as 19C. When
I'm sitting idle in Windows XP - as I am now - it's sitting at 13C! I tested
it by encoding a large MP3 and it went up to 27C after 5 mins of encoding.

I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html) switched on and
an Athlon-64 3400 Clawhammer (2.2GHz) with a Arctic Cooling Silencer 64 fan.
Can this be real? I'm concerned that the temps are being misreported...

More about : cpu temp 13c

Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 2:29:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Jack wrote:
> I have just updated the drivers for my MSI K8T Neo mobo, updated my BIOS and
> updated the MSI "CoreCenter" monitoring software.
>
> CoreCenter and the BIOS both give me temperature readings for my CPU. Before
> the updates the BIOS and CoreCenter reported my CPU as having temperatures
> of between 39C and 51C depending on the room temp and what I was doing. This
> seemed a fairly normal temperature and I was satisfied with it.
>
> However since the updates my CPU temperature has went way down according to
> this software. When I go into the BIOS it's reporting the temp as 19C. When
> I'm sitting idle in Windows XP - as I am now - it's sitting at 13C! I tested
> it by encoding a large MP3 and it went up to 27C after 5 mins of encoding.
>
> I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html) switched on and
> an Athlon-64 3400 Clawhammer (2.2GHz) with a Arctic Cooling Silencer 64 fan.
> Can this be real? I'm concerned that the temps are being misreported...
>
>

Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter updates
that you installed? It could be that the old versions were misreporting
the temps.

Parish
January 30, 2005 2:38:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
>
> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter updates
> that you installed? It could be that the old versions were misreporting
> the temps.

I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature. :) 
Related resources
Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 2:45:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Jack wrote:
> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
>>
>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter updates
>> that you installed? It could be that the old versions were misreporting
>> the temps.
>
> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature. :) 
>
>

Well AMD must have done some good design work with the 64 then if it
only hots 27C after 5 mins of MP3 encoding. Athlon XPs were very hot
chips - my dual MP2800s idle at 45-50 depending on room temp, although
they don't get much hotter when worked hard, thankfully :-)

Parish
January 30, 2005 2:56:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:363vnmF4qh5v8U1@individual.net...
> Jack wrote:
>> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter updates
>>> that you installed? It could be that the old versions were misreporting
>>> the temps.
>>
>> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature. :) 
>
> Well AMD must have done some good design work with the 64 then if it only
> hots 27C after 5 mins of MP3 encoding. Athlon XPs were very hot chips - my
> dual MP2800s idle at 45-50 depending on room temp, although they don't get
> much hotter when worked hard, thankfully :-)

Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000 and it
ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip running at 13C is
worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe it's correct. :) 
January 30, 2005 2:58:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote in message
news:363va7F4qe5urU1@individual.net...
> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
>>
>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter updates
>> that you installed? It could be that the old versions were misreporting
>> the temps.
>
> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature. :) 
Of all the PC's I've built, the only ones to consistently misreport temps
are the ones based on MSI boards!

SteveH
Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 3:36:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Jack wrote:

> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:363vnmF4qh5v8U1@individual.net...
> > Jack wrote:
> >> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
> > > >
> >>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter
> updates >>> that you installed? It could be that the old versions
> were misreporting >>> the temps.
> > >
> >> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature.
> :) 
> >
> > Well AMD must have done some good design work with the 64 then if
> > it only hots 27C after 5 mins of MP3 encoding. Athlon XPs were very
> > hot chips - my dual MP2800s idle at 45-50 depending on room temp,
> > although they don't get much hotter when worked hard, thankfully :-)
>
> Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000
> and it ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip
> running at 13C is worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe
> it's correct. :) 

You're not the only one! I've got a 64 3500 on an Abit AV8 which idles
at 36C with Cool'n'Quiet clocking the multiplier at 5. Under load it
goes up to 68C. That's with a fairly mild overclock of 216FSB & all
voltages at their standard settings. Abit & MSI must read the temps in
very different ways...

One thing that threw me when I first started using Cool'n'Quiet was how
some apps didn't make the temps go up despite causing 100% CPU usage.
Then I discovered that the multiplier stays at 5 if the app uses a task
priority of 'Low'.

--
Preston.

http://www.muddystuff.co.uk
Off-road classifieds
Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 4:23:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

> Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000 and it
> ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip running at 13C is
> worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe it's correct. :) 

What's your ambient temperature? If it's above 13°C (very likely) and you are
not using Peltier or phase change cooling then a false temperature reading is
the only possibility left I would say.

David
January 30, 2005 4:23:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"David Johnstone" <david_ffm@mail.com> wrote in message
news:ctijfk$mq1$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>
>> Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000 and
>> it
>> ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip running at 13C
>> is
>> worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe it's correct. :) 
>
> What's your ambient temperature?

Above 13C. ;) 

> If it's above 13°C (very likely) and you are
> not using Peltier or phase change cooling then a false temperature reading
> is
> the only possibility left I would say.

Yeah. I'll look out for another BIOS update then...
January 30, 2005 6:49:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On 30 Jan 2005 11:14:01 GMT, "Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote:

>I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html)

Anything like this for a none 64 Bit Xp chip, I'd love to get mine
down a bit in the shuttle ?

--
arjftebhcf@jryfutbi.pb.hx<--ROT13 it
Spam Trap in Header

Child Birth is hereditary,
If your parents didn't have any children
Then the chances are you wont.


http://borg.no-ip.com
Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 7:03:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Jack wrote:
> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> Jack wrote:
>>> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter
>>>> updates that you installed? It could be that the old versions
>>>> were misreporting the temps.
>>>
>>> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU
>>> temperature. :) 
>>
>> Well AMD must have done some good design work with the 64 then if
>> it only hots 27C after 5 mins of MP3 encoding. Athlon XPs were
>> very hot chips - my dual MP2800s idle at 45-50 depending on room
>> temp, although they don't get much hotter when worked hard,
>> thankfully :-)
>
> Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000
> and it ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip
> running at 13C is worryingly low for me... I find it hard to
> believe it's correct. :) 

Considering that room temperature is about 20 C, and that very few
CPUs function as refrigerators, the possibility of your system
being correct becomes vanishingly small.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 7:14:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

>
> Considering that room temperature is about 20 C, and that very few
> CPUs function as refrigerators, the possibility of your system
> being correct becomes vanishingly small.
>
He could be an Inuit. Brings a whole new meaning to Artic Silver!
Anonymous
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January 30, 2005 8:28:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On 30 Jan 2005 11:56:49 GMT, "Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote:

| "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
| news:363vnmF4qh5v8U1@individual.net...
| > Jack wrote:
| >> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
| >> news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
| >>>
| >>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter updates
| >>> that you installed? It could be that the old versions were misreporting
| >>> the temps.
| >>
| >> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature. :) 
| >
| > Well AMD must have done some good design work with the 64 then if it only
| > hots 27C after 5 mins of MP3 encoding. Athlon XPs were very hot chips - my
| > dual MP2800s idle at 45-50 depending on room temp, although they don't get
| > much hotter when worked hard, thankfully :-)
|
| Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000 and it
| ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip running at 13C is
| worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe it's correct. :) 

It's not correct unless your system is in a very cold room! 13C
(55.4F) probably wouldn't even occur in an operating computer in an
igloo!

Larc



§§§ - Change planet to earth to reply by email - §§§
Anonymous
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January 31, 2005 5:50:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Hi Jack, why dont you check the temperatures with a Digital thermometer
also some Digital Multi Meters have a thermometer function too.

Yes 13%C does seem a bit too low for my liking too, likewise i have a ASUS
A7V600-X with and overheating Via KT600 chipset, the bios and Everest
reports about 30%C, rarly changes (sometimes it jumps 20-30%C in a single
step), but my DMM reports between 28 from cold rising 1%C every 3 seconds
to 55%C just sitting idle, under load it rises to 65%C, the DMM sensor is
placed in bottom of HS on the top side opposite the core.

Cpu: XP3200+ 26 - 35 idle, 36 - 55%C under load
chipset: 28 - 55 idle, 56 - 65%C, (highest recorded so far)
HDD: 18 - 25%C
Room: 18 - 22%C
--
Andrew Mcintosh
ASI Industries = Alpha Soft International Industries. (1990 - 1995)
ASI Industries = As i in does tries! (1996 - current date)
Anonymous
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January 31, 2005 8:55:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

"Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote in message
news:3645dpF4t85smU1@individual.net...
> "David Johnstone" <david_ffm@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:ctijfk$mq1$00$1@news.t-online.com...
> >
> >> Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000 and
> >> it
> >> ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip running at 13C
> >> is
> >> worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe it's correct. :) 
> >
> > What's your ambient temperature?
>
> Above 13C. ;) 
>
> > If it's above 13°C (very likely) and you are
> > not using Peltier or phase change cooling then a false temperature
reading
> > is
> > the only possibility left I would say.
>
> Yeah. I'll look out for another BIOS update then...

Make sure you don't have any other monitoring software installed
too (eg the old version, or MBM5 etc) as they usually (always?)
interfere with each other - a problem with the design of the SMbus,
I think.
HTH
--
Rob
Anonymous
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January 31, 2005 9:00:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:50:29 GMT, "ASI Industries"
<ASIIndustries@(removeme)asi-industries.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:

>Hi Jack, why dont you check the temperatures with a Digital thermometer
>also some Digital Multi Meters have a thermometer function too.
>
>Yes 13%C does seem a bit too low for my liking too, likewise i have a ASUS
>A7V600-X with and overheating Via KT600 chipset, the bios and Everest
>reports about 30%C, rarly changes (sometimes it jumps 20-30%C in a single
>step), but my DMM reports between 28 from cold rising 1%C every 3 seconds
>to 55%C just sitting idle, under load it rises to 65%C, the DMM sensor is
>placed in bottom of HS on the top side opposite the core.
>
>Cpu: XP3200+ 26 - 35 idle, 36 - 55%C under load
>chipset: 28 - 55 idle, 56 - 65%C, (highest recorded so far)
>HDD: 18 - 25%C
>Room: 18 - 22%C

65C is not "overheating", it is within the specs for the
chip. It's actually a good compromise to have a stable chip
with passive cooling, rather than one cooler than it needs
be, with the added noise and maintenance of a fan.

Even so, sometimes the 'sink interface isn't too good.
Sadly it's even common for boards to have a thermal
interface material that doesn't even touch the center
heat-spreader of (chips incorporating such a spreader) due
to it being sunk below the plane of the outer epoxy
(carrier) border.

If it's really bothering you, taking off the 'sink and
checking the interface is one option, perhaps it can be
improved. I have an A7V600 and note no overheating
problems. The 'sink is fairly warm but so are most chipsets
@ 200MHz/DDR400 FSB and higher.
Anonymous
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January 31, 2005 9:33:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Jack writes:

> I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html) switched on and
> an Athlon-64 3400 Clawhammer (2.2GHz) with a Arctic Cooling Silencer 64 fan.
> Can this be real? I'm concerned that the temps are being misreported...

Unless you are using active cooling (like a refrigeration system), the
CPU temperature cannot be less than that of the ambient air; and usually
it will be well above it.

My poorly-designed desktop runs with its Athlon processor between 53°
and 64° C. It used to be even worse, until I added a case fan (which
the manufacturer was too cheap to install).

In my old server, which was exactly the same kind of box, the BIOS
couldn't display more than two digits for temperatures in Celsius. When
the OS got stuck in a loop after the CPU fan failed, the temperature
reached at least 114° C (240° F), but the BIOS displayed only two digits
(fortunately, it also gave the temperature in Fahrenheit with three
digits, which is how I knew what was happening--although the smell gave
it away, too).

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
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February 1, 2005 7:07:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> 65C is not "overheating", it is within the specs for the
> chip. It's actually a good compromise to have a stable chip
> with passive cooling, rather than one cooler than it needs
> be, with the added noise and maintenance of a fan.

Cooler components last longer, although most PCs are probably dumped
before added heat damages the components. A processor that runs hot
will very gradually deteriorate over the years as dopants tend to drift
more quickly in the chip. However, except in the case of processors
that truly overheated, I've not seen processors fail. If they run for
48 hours, they'll run forever. But why take chances by running them any
hotter than necessary?

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
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February 1, 2005 9:57:40 AM

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On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 04:07:35 +0100, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> 65C is not "overheating", it is within the specs for the
>> chip. It's actually a good compromise to have a stable chip
>> with passive cooling, rather than one cooler than it needs
>> be, with the added noise and maintenance of a fan.
>
>Cooler components last longer, although most PCs are probably dumped
>before added heat damages the components. A processor that runs hot
>will very gradually deteriorate over the years as dopants tend to drift
>more quickly in the chip. However, except in the case of processors
>that truly overheated, I've not seen processors fail. If they run for
>48 hours, they'll run forever. But why take chances by running them any
>hotter than necessary?

Then what solution to you propose? Fans have far shorter
lifespan than the ICs.

There may indeed be a chance it won't then last 30 years,
but IMO, the principle focus should always be the earlier
failure points rather than the latter... fans, caps,
mechanical switchs and contacts are more likely to cause
failure at which point the systems aren't worth the time or
expense to fix (if it's even reasonable to track down some
of the older parts beyond proprietary industrial
applications).
Anonymous
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February 1, 2005 1:42:40 PM

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"BORG" <borg@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:nf0qv01n80en6p577sn8rn1ghovl8orp0s@4ax.com...
> On 30 Jan 2005 11:14:01 GMT, "Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote:
>
>>I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html)
>
> Anything like this for a none 64 Bit Xp chip, I'd love to get mine
> down a bit in the shuttle ?

Nope, its a feature of the processor/mobo

>
> --
> arjftebhcf@jryfutbi.pb.hx<--ROT13 it
> Spam Trap in Header
>
> Child Birth is hereditary,
> If your parents didn't have any children
> Then the chances are you wont.
>
>
> http://borg.no-ip.com
Anonymous
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February 1, 2005 4:37:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:49:38 +0000, BORG <borg@deadspam.com>
wrote:

>On 30 Jan 2005 11:14:01 GMT, "Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote:
>
>>I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html)
>
>Anything like this for a none 64 Bit Xp chip, I'd love to get mine
>down a bit in the shuttle ?

Athlon XP can use HALT idle cooling with an OS that supports
ACPI. Some boards allow enabling it in the bios (might be
called "S2K" but others require software to program chipset
registers (like WPCREdit, WPCRSet). Google search for it
including phrases like "<name of your shuttle board's
chipset> HLT cooling"
Anonymous
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February 1, 2005 7:54:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> Then what solution to you propose?

Fans, and several of them. On my homebuilt server, there are seven
fans. Three in the power supply (supplied with the PSU), one on the
processor (supplied with the processor), plus three 8-cm fans I added:
two in the front blowing air into the case and drawing it through a
filter, arranged to blow past the disk drives, and one on the side of
the case over the processor, blowing air down over the processor and
drawing it through a filter. So three fans take air in, and one takes
it out, which should create slight positive pressure (the remaining air
just flows out the top and back of the case).

I figure that the machine should still be safe with any single fan
failure, and possibly with two fan failures. The Intel processor
protects itself if the fan fails; the rest of the machine has multiple
fans so that the PSU and MB should be kept acceptably cool even if one
of them drops out.

> Fans have far shorter lifespan than the ICs.

That's why I have more fans than I need. If one fails, the machine
won't cook (unlike its predecessor, whose AMD processor did exactly that
when the CPU fan failed). I'm very aware of the sound they make and any
change alerts me; I also explicitly check to see if air is flowing
through them periodically.

Needless to say, I don't care about noise. I actually like hearing
components running, because it makes it possible to detect when they
stop running. Over all three machines, I have some 13 fans running.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
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February 1, 2005 10:01:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

I'm seeing the same behavior on my MSI K8T Neo2-FIR mobo. The board
shipped with BIOS version 3.0. The CPU and system temperatures reported
by the BIOS in PC Health Status and by Core Center were in agreement at
around 39 and 34 deg. C, respectively, when the CPU is idle. The CPU
temp. under 100% CPU load was 47 deg. C.

Then I upgraded to BIOS 3.2 which has a fix for "BIOS reporting
incorrect CPU temperature". After that, the CPU temperature reported by
Core Center varies wildly from 11 to 29 deg. C while the system
temperature is around 30 deg. C. Meanwhile, PC Health Status in the
BIOS reports 34 for CPU and 30 for system. The ambient air temperature
outside the PC is 19 deg. C.

I upgraded to BIOS 3.3, and the behavior is the same 3.2. I have been
e-mailing MSI Tech Support, but I had a hard time convincing the rep.
that there is a bug in the BIOS or Core Center as demonstrated by the
discrepancy in CPU temp. reported by the two. After many attempts, he
sent me a newer version of the BIOS today. I'll try it tonight, but I'm
not holding my breath.

Kevin


Jack wrote:
> I have just updated the drivers for my MSI K8T Neo mobo, updated my
BIOS and
> updated the MSI "CoreCenter" monitoring software.
>
> CoreCenter and the BIOS both give me temperature readings for my CPU.
Before
> the updates the BIOS and CoreCenter reported my CPU as having
temperatures
> of between 39C and 51C depending on the room temp and what I was
doing. This
> seemed a fairly normal temperature and I was satisfied with it.
>
> However since the updates my CPU temperature has went way down
according to
> this software. When I go into the BIOS it's reporting the temp as
19C. When
> I'm sitting idle in Windows XP - as I am now - it's sitting at 13C! I
tested
> it by encoding a large MP3 and it went up to 27C after 5 mins of
encoding.
>
> I have CoolNQuiet (http://www.amdboard.com/coolnquiet.html) switched
on and
> an Athlon-64 3400 Clawhammer (2.2GHz) with a Arctic Cooling Silencer
64 fan.
> Can this be real? I'm concerned that the temps are being
misreported...
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 1, 2005 10:23:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 16:54:43 +0100, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> Then what solution to you propose?
>
>Fans, and several of them. On my homebuilt server, there are seven
>fans. Three in the power supply (supplied with the PSU), one on the
>processor (supplied with the processor), plus three 8-cm fans I added:
>two in the front blowing air into the case and drawing it through a
>filter, arranged to blow past the disk drives, and one on the side of
>the case over the processor, blowing air down over the processor and
>drawing it through a filter. So three fans take air in, and one takes
>it out, which should create slight positive pressure (the remaining air
>just flows out the top and back of the case).
>

Ok, if the heat (or RPM reduction for reduced noise)
warrants that many fans, but those fans will not reduce the
northbridge temp much, if we're going under the presumption
that the case was already properly ventilated. Even with
the fans, most likely each and every fan would fail long
before the northbridge. Perhaps not while machine is newer
and valuable enough to be well-kept, but given enough time,
it's not likely anyone would find use or value in the system
by the time it's THAT old.


>I figure that the machine should still be safe with any single fan
>failure, and possibly with two fan failures. The Intel processor
>protects itself if the fan fails; the rest of the machine has multiple
>fans so that the PSU and MB should be kept acceptably cool even if one
>of them drops out.

That is a good idea, so long as it suits your needs. I buy
fans by the case so I too can do this at reasonable cost
without sacrificing fan quality, but I regularly see people
paying upwards of $10 per fan - buying fewer because they
have not the budget or inclination to add so many fans.

>
>> Fans have far shorter lifespan than the ICs.
>
>That's why I have more fans than I need. If one fails, the machine
>won't cook (unlike its predecessor, whose AMD processor did exactly that
>when the CPU fan failed). I'm very aware of the sound they make and any
>change alerts me; I also explicitly check to see if air is flowing
>through them periodically.
>
>Needless to say, I don't care about noise. I actually like hearing
>components running, because it makes it possible to detect when they
>stop running. Over all three machines, I have some 13 fans running.

This may be where we differ somewhat, I don't have a single
fan running at over (roughly) 3000 RPM, and only then on a
couple of overclocked gaming video cards where there is more
of a space constraint. Usually I'll want an optimized fan
RPM such that it reduces dust builtup and bearing wear even
on remote systems outside of audible range. The noisiest
things in some/most of my audible systems are WD
ball-bearing based hard drives, but fortunately WD has now
switched over to all fluid bearing models AFAIK.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 1, 2005 11:12:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Hi Kony, sorry i forgot to mention when the chipset got to 65%C, (3 hours
playing heavy 3d games), the mainboard heat protection system cut in and
switched the system off, even though i disabled the heat sensors in the
bios!

The board is not in a case, just sitting on a worktop, i have replaced the
thermal compound, that made no difference, added a chipset fan, that
doubled the time before it crashes (6 hours playing heavy 3d games),
replaced the stock hs with a Zalman Zm-nb47j hs (its 4x the size of stock
hs and wieghs 54g) it reduced the temperature overall by 6%C.

Relocated the 12cm fan to cover both cpu hs and Zalman chipset hs brings
the
temperature down around 22 - 26%C and the stock hs brings the temperature
down around 28 - 35%C, currently using Zalman Cnps6000b-cu cpu hsf.

>65C is not "overheating", it is within the specs for the chip.
Can you provide any urls for the specifications of the Via Kt600
northbridge chipset?
--
Andrew Mcintosh
ASI Industries = Alpha Soft International Industries. (1990 - 1995)
ASI Industries = As i in does tries! (1996 - current date)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 1:30:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> Ok, if the heat (or RPM reduction for reduced noise)
> warrants that many fans, but those fans will not reduce the
> northbridge temp much, if we're going under the presumption
> that the case was already properly ventilated. Even with
> the fans, most likely each and every fan would fail long
> before the northbridge. Perhaps not while machine is newer
> and valuable enough to be well-kept, but given enough time,
> it's not likely anyone would find use or value in the system
> by the time it's THAT old.

My idea is that any single fan failure will not damage the machine, even
a CPU or PSU fan failure. If you have a configuration in which the
failure of a certain fan will damage the system, then you risk your
entire investment on the reliability of a component that will inevitably
fail.

And systems can retain use and value indefinitely. If they do the job
they are intended to do, there's no reason why they can't remain in use
for twenty years or more. I have a very well designed and built HP
Vectra on my desk that has been running continuously for eight years
without a hiccup.

> That is a good idea, so long as it suits your needs. I buy
> fans by the case so I too can do this at reasonable cost
> without sacrificing fan quality, but I regularly see people
> paying upwards of $10 per fan - buying fewer because they
> have not the budget or inclination to add so many fans.

Ten dollars isn't much to save a $200 motherboard or a $200
microprocessor (or multiple components).

> This may be where we differ somewhat, I don't have a single
> fan running at over (roughly) 3000 RPM, and only then on a
> couple of overclocked gaming video cards where there is more
> of a space constraint. Usually I'll want an optimized fan
> RPM such that it reduces dust builtup and bearing wear even
> on remote systems outside of audible range.

Dust builds up in areas where the air flow is slowing, not in areas of
high flow. The places that receive the strongest air currents are never
the places that contain the dust--it's always hiding in crannies where
the air slows down.

Also, if you put filters on the incoming air, you can greatly reduce
dust (although I'm still looking for ideal filters).

> The noisiest
> things in some/most of my audible systems are WD
> ball-bearing based hard drives, but fortunately WD has now
> switched over to all fluid bearing models AFAIK.

Will those bearings last as long as ball bearings?

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 1:31:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

> Hi Kony, sorry i forgot to mention when the chipset got to 65%C, (3 hours
> playing heavy 3d games) ...

The entire chipset on the MB, or just the processor?

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 7:53:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:30:09 +0100, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> Ok, if the heat (or RPM reduction for reduced noise)
>> warrants that many fans, but those fans will not reduce the
>> northbridge temp much, if we're going under the presumption
>> that the case was already properly ventilated. Even with
>> the fans, most likely each and every fan would fail long
>> before the northbridge. Perhaps not while machine is newer
>> and valuable enough to be well-kept, but given enough time,
>> it's not likely anyone would find use or value in the system
>> by the time it's THAT old.
>
>My idea is that any single fan failure will not damage the machine, even
>a CPU or PSU fan failure. If you have a configuration in which the
>failure of a certain fan will damage the system, then you risk your
>entire investment on the reliability of a component that will inevitably
>fail.

Possibly but many components that would be susceptible to
this also have a thermal shutdown mechanism.

>
>And systems can retain use and value indefinitely. If they do the job
>they are intended to do, there's no reason why they can't remain in use
>for twenty years or more. I have a very well designed and built HP
>Vectra on my desk that has been running continuously for eight years
>without a hiccup.

That's not really true, they become a liability after about
5 years due to mechanical connections and capacitor rot.
Additionally I don't expect today's systems to last nearly
as long as (say an old 486 did). Even with quite a few
fans the mechanical and cap issues may be higher.

>
>> That is a good idea, so long as it suits your needs. I buy
>> fans by the case so I too can do this at reasonable cost
>> without sacrificing fan quality, but I regularly see people
>> paying upwards of $10 per fan - buying fewer because they
>> have not the budget or inclination to add so many fans.
>
>Ten dollars isn't much to save a $200 motherboard or a $200
>microprocessor (or multiple components).

But per your example, it'd be 7 x $10. I have a system or
two or three (lost count) with 7 or more fans but dont' see
this too often due to case manufacturers limiting fan
numbers as a cost-reduction. Many people would not pay $70
more for same case with more fans already in it, even if it
saved them the cost of adding the fans. While it can be a
good idea, it may not be so necessary with good fans and
thermal managment. It is pretty rare for a good
sleeve-bearing fan to fail within the first few years (like
Panaflo) unless driven at very high RPM. After the first
few years, each person may not place same value on their
systems as you do, because again they see some that aren't
so expensive with fewer fans.

>
>> This may be where we differ somewhat, I don't have a single
>> fan running at over (roughly) 3000 RPM, and only then on a
>> couple of overclocked gaming video cards where there is more
>> of a space constraint. Usually I'll want an optimized fan
>> RPM such that it reduces dust builtup and bearing wear even
>> on remote systems outside of audible range.
>
>Dust builds up in areas where the air flow is slowing, not in areas of
>high flow. The places that receive the strongest air currents are never
>the places that contain the dust--it's always hiding in crannies where
>the air slows down.

While that's a nice theory, in practice the dust builds up
everywhere. Evidence includes dust buildup on the fan
blades themselves, certainly not an area of slowing air
flow. Overall a higher flow through the chassis will always
result in more dust accumulation.


>Also, if you put filters on the incoming air, you can greatly reduce
>dust (although I'm still looking for ideal filters).

Me too, ideal filters are restrictive enough on flow that
the last case I put one in was using a filter area of
roughly 3-4X the area of the intake fans. Then keeping a
positive pressurization on the case to keep all intake
filtered means either louder intake fans, more frequent
filter exchange, or exhaust fan reduction at certain
interval (or sealing up ever other nook and cranny on the
case).

>
>> The noisiest
>> things in some/most of my audible systems are WD
>> ball-bearing based hard drives, but fortunately WD has now
>> switched over to all fluid bearing models AFAIK.
>
>Will those bearings last as long as ball bearings?

Only time will tell? They seem to imply they're more
reliable, but when would a manufacturer not claim this about
product changes?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 8:03:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:12:43 GMT, "ASI Industries"
<ASIIndustries@(removeme)asi-industries.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:

>Hi Kony, sorry i forgot to mention when the chipset got to 65%C, (3 hours
>playing heavy 3d games), the mainboard heat protection system cut in and
>switched the system off, even though i disabled the heat sensors in the
>bios!

Hmm, I didn't remember there being a way to disable the heat
sensors. Perhaps you mean the thermal shutoff for the CPU?
Are you running the PCProbe software? Maybe that is the
reason for the shutdown?

>
>The board is not in a case, just sitting on a worktop,

Is this how it was all along? Perhaps that 's it, your CPU
heatsink is simply recirculating same pre-heated air around
the northbridge.

>i have replaced the
>thermal compound, that made no difference, added a chipset fan, that
>doubled the time before it crashes (6 hours playing heavy 3d games),
>replaced the stock hs with a Zalman Zm-nb47j hs (its 4x the size of stock
>hs and wieghs 54g) it reduced the temperature overall by 6%C.

It has now dawned on me that your board didn't have the tall
silver Asus heatsink but rather the shorther dark-colored
one? Mine has the silver one and has done fine with it...
but it doesn't explain why you're not seeing good results
with the Zalman.

>
>Relocated the 12cm fan to cover both cpu hs and Zalman chipset hs brings
>the
>temperature down around 22 - 26%C and the stock hs brings the temperature
>down around 28 - 35%C, currently using Zalman Cnps6000b-cu cpu hsf.
>
>>65C is not "overheating", it is within the specs for the chip.
>Can you provide any urls for the specifications of the Via Kt600
>northbridge chipset?

No I don't see one available to the public on Via's website,
but there aren't any that have lower than 80-85C, usually
higher, that I recall. Granted that many not rule out
instability but from time to time I'll drop in on some
motherboard forums and had not noticed any significant rate
of these boards overheating... but then I wasn't looking for
such data since mine isn't overheating? Right now PCProbe
reports it @ 36C. Upon feeling the heatsink that figure
seems close enough to accurate, ie- it's certainly not at ~
65C.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 8:59:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Hi Mxsmanic, no just the Via KT600 NB SHS.

Anyway i just borrowed a multi-temperature data logger, the unit measures
16 sensors at the same time.

Two test were done one with the SHS and the othe with the ZHS, with 1 hour
cool-off period between tests.

Sensor: Idle: Avg: Fail: OBI: Avg: OBF:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
Cpu core: 36 50 65 26 35 28
Cpu HS: 26 43 60
KT600 NB core: 38 62 86 27 30 32
KT600 NB SHS: 28 47 76
KT600 NB ZHS: 24 47 76
KT600 SB core: 22 22 22
Vga core: 45 50 52 45 48 52
Vga HS: 40 44 48
Vga memory: 35 40 45 39 42 42
HDD: 16 16 16 16 16 16
Memory: 22 22 22
Room: 22 22 22

Notes: The tests began roughly 30 secs after Win XP loaded.
Everest v2.00.254 for onboard sensors for (cpu, system (usually NB) and
HDD).
Everest v2.00.254 Download http://tinyurl.com/4trst
Asus Smartdoctor v4.60 for onboard onboard sensors for (GPU and memory).
HDD is cooled via PSU.
SHS = Stock HeatSink, ZHS = Zalman ZM-NB47J HeatSink
NB = North Bridge, SB = South Bridge
OBI = OnBoard Idle, OBF = OnBoard Fail

System details:
ASUSTEK A7V600-X, Rev 1.0, Bios 1007. http://tinyurl.com/6v3xd
Amd XP3200+ Barton (2200mhz 11x 200).
Asus V9999GT /TD128 (Nvidia 6800GT) driver 71.24.
http://tinyurl.com/6gvkc
1024mb 2x Corsair value ddr400 512mb, matched pair Cas 2.5:3-3-8.
Zalman Cnps6000-cu.
http://tinyurl.com/4fxu4
Zalman ZM-NB47J.
http://tinyurl.com/2x2qf
Windows XP.SP1 DX9.0c
Qtec 400wt dual fan psu (+3+5=180 / +12=192 / 372).
+3.3v = 3.34, +5v = 5.12, +12v = 12.12.
Floppy, Nec ND3500A dual dvd rw, Samsung SP0411N 40gb HDD pata 100.
--
Andrew Mcintosh
ASI Industries = Alpha Soft International Industries. (1990 - 1995)
ASI Industries = As i in does tries! (1996 - current date)
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 9:41:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> That's not really true, they become a liability after about
> 5 years due to mechanical connections and capacitor rot.

I've never seen an MB fail in the absence of something that damaged it
(heat, water, etc.). While components do fail, most people never wait
for it to happen, and methodically replace machines while they are still
in perfect working order.

> Additionally I don't expect today's systems to last nearly
> as long as (say an old 486 did).

Why not?

> But per your example, it'd be 7 x $10.

That's $70, compared to over $850 for the entire system.

> It is pretty rare for a good
> sleeve-bearing fan to fail within the first few years (like
> Panaflo) unless driven at very high RPM.

After being burned by sleeve bearings (so to speak), I now use only
ball-bearing fans.

> While that's a nice theory, in practice the dust builds up
> everywhere.

It's what I've observed from experience, not theory. The air has to
move slowly for the dust to settle out, so the places where there is a
slowing of the air or similar turbulence are where the dust collects.

> Evidence includes dust buildup on the fan
> blades themselves, certainly not an area of slowing air
> flow.

But it is an area of slowing air flow, along trailing edges that
generate vortices.

> Overall a higher flow through the chassis will always
> result in more dust accumulation.

Whence the interest of using filters. Now if only I could find good
filters.

> Only time will tell? They seem to imply they're more
> reliable, but when would a manufacturer not claim this about
> product changes?

I'll wait and see, then. I know ball bearings last a long time. I'll
let someone else be the pioneer with new types of bearings.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 11:13:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 06:41:59 +0100, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> That's not really true, they become a liability after about
>> 5 years due to mechanical connections and capacitor rot.
>
>I've never seen an MB fail in the absence of something that damaged it
>(heat, water, etc.). While components do fail, most people never wait
>for it to happen, and methodically replace machines while they are still
>in perfect working order.

Well that has to be weighed against all common failures
though... To a certain extent we could always attribute
failure to 'something', whether that be electrical surge,
manufacturing defect, oxide buildup, epoxy deterioration,
heat, water, physical shock, etc, or just gradual
evaporation of capacitor electrolyte. Often I do see boards
that have failed for no obvious reason, and for cost and
time constraints it is more feasable to replace rather than
diagnose.

>
>> Additionally I don't expect today's systems to last nearly
>> as long as (say an old 486 did).
>
>Why not?

Power requirements elevated relative to the actual capacity
of the average power supply, higher current swings, and with
the relatively similar PCB real-estate, a limitation in
spacd and expense is reached where the margin for capacitors
is lower. Even a gale force wind will not keep a cap as
cool on a (for example, Prescott 3.6GHz) VRM circuit as on
the typical (Celeron 600) board. All capacitor
manufacturers are in agreement that higher cap temp will
directly effect their viable lifespan. In some situations I
feel it would be preferrible to have socketed caps else at
least a higher-tiered board for "PC" rather than server
which has more optimal cap such as organic compositions.


>
>> But per your example, it'd be 7 x $10.
>
>That's $70, compared to over $850 for the entire system.

True, I agree that extra expense is worthwhile, but since I
do buy fans in bulk I can't begin to rationalize it for
someone else. Pure performance is too often emphasized
rather than lifespan, such that a customer seeing two
systems with *same* price-point may easily choose one that
is quieter, faster CPU, and hotter running, rather than one
which is cooler but slower CPU. With every $70 there is
some kind of tradeoff to be made in a modular PC.


>
>> It is pretty rare for a good
>> sleeve-bearing fan to fail within the first few years (like
>> Panaflo) unless driven at very high RPM.
>
>After being burned by sleeve bearings (so to speak), I now use only
>ball-bearing fans.

Were they good makes though? I would never put
median-to-low quality sleeve bearings in a system and remove
(replace) such fans from cases with them already installed,
but find Panaflo and Papst in particular to be very good
quality and lifespans exceeding 10 years in most cases,
perhaps far longer if a lubrication interval is maintained
after the first 5-8 years. It would be a personal
preference, a drop of oil every 3 years or so seems like a
fair trade for great reduction in higher frequency bearing
noise, moreso in often-used, "PC" systems rather than remote
systems outside of audible range.

Junk sleeve-bearing fans are a real liability. Placing one
on a power supply exhaust, video card or CPU heatsink is
quite often the primary reason I see old systems replaced.
Not that there aren't other reasons some will replace an old
system, but in practice I see people who would've kept using
a system had it not been for such a fan failure, then faced
with a (power supply loss or maybe just a suddenly loud CPU
fan), they self-rationalize that they'd rather spend another
$700 for a modern system to do web-surfing, email, and
office tasks. I don't argue with them, as I'm quite happy
to receive any OEM systems that only need minor fixes and
include a valid Windows license.

>
>> While that's a nice theory, in practice the dust builds up
>> everywhere.
>
>It's what I've observed from experience, not theory. The air has to
>move slowly for the dust to settle out, so the places where there is a
>slowing of the air or similar turbulence are where the dust collects.

True, it will collect more where there is slowing, BUT the
origin of the dust, it's entry into the system is increased
by this higher flow rate. Even though dust settles in the
lower flow areas, it also settles elsewhere.

>
>> Evidence includes dust buildup on the fan
>> blades themselves, certainly not an area of slowing air
>> flow.
>
>But it is an area of slowing air flow, along trailing edges that
>generate vortices.


Relatively speaking it's quite higher air flow than anywhere
else in the system except another area of the fan blade.
Further it is not only trailing edges that collect dust, the
entire blade does.

>
>> Overall a higher flow through the chassis will always
>> result in more dust accumulation.
>
>Whence the interest of using filters. Now if only I could find good
>filters.

I'm slowly beginning to abandon the idea of a single-density
medium in favor of a double or triple layer filter. The
primary problem is implementation in a typical case. While
it's not so bad to do a couple cases for personal use
(particularly when forethought allows setting up a new
system thoroughly prior to migration from an older one), the
issue of having a larger filter area than fan intake area
makes it difficult to implement without significant case
front modifications- something many people seem to shy away
from when they've just received a new case. I sometimes
argue that it's easier to do modification work prior to
building into a case rather than later, but maybe it's the
excitement of a new build, maybe the perceived value of a
"new" case, for whatever the reason most often people seem
to be building a system and THEN thinking about cooling
rather than the other way around.


>
>> Only time will tell? They seem to imply they're more
>> reliable, but when would a manufacturer not claim this about
>> product changes?
>
>I'll wait and see, then. I know ball bearings last a long time. I'll
>let someone else be the pioneer with new types of bearings.

It doesn't necessarily matter, begin a trial use with only a
few of them, continuing to make regular backups of data as
always, then if they're viable for the purpose you'll have
demonstrated it without significant disruption.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 11:22:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

I forgot to add i was running a 5cm x1cm 1000rpm fan instead of the 12cm
Zalman fan.

Also CpuIdle was running. http://www.cpuidle.de

The purpose of the test was how long before failure and with the stock hs
was only 35 minutes and 2 hours 35 minutes with the Zalman hs, before the
agp bus overheated and i lost video.

And i found out how inaccurate the onboard sensors were.
--
Andrew Mcintosh
ASI Industries = Alpha Soft International Industries. (1990 - 1995)
ASI Industries = As i in does tries! (1996 - current date)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 11:27:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

Hi Kony,
>>The board is not in a case, just sitting on a worktop,
> Is this how it was all along? Perhaps that 's it, your CPU
> heatsink is simply recirculating same pre-heated air around
> the northbridge
No, 4 days ago it was in a case, maybe.

> Hmm, I didn't remember there being a way to disable the heat
> sensors. Perhaps you mean the thermal shutoff for the CPU?
Yes you are right, sorry got mixed-up with my Abit NF7-S V2 it does, but it
did shutoff and cpu hs was warm (30-40%C), NB hs was so hot i burnt my
finger, 65%C on my dmm.

> Are you running the PCProbe software? Maybe that is the
> reason for the shutdown
No i have found PCProbe to be inaccurate, Everest (Aida32) is better.

> It has now dawned on me that your board didn't have the tall
> silver Asus heatsink but rather the shorther dark-colored
> one? Mine has the silver one and has done fine with it...
> but it doesn't explain why you're not seeing good results
> with the Zalman.
Yes the little black one about 10g, the Zalman NB hs is Aluminum
and its quite poor with heat transfer.

> >Can you provide any urls for the specifications of the Via Kt600
> >northbridge chipset?
> No I don't see one available to the public on Via's website,
> but there aren't any that have lower than 80-85C, usually
> higher, that I recall.
Same here, but i did see the specifications of the Via KT133A and
KT400 northbridge chipset and they were only about 10%C above
room / case temperature and with a hs / hsf it reduced the temps by
at least 50%.

Oh i was running Win98se at the time of the 65%C shutdown.

Anyway i have new data you will find it under `Mxsmanic' post.
--
Andrew Mcintosh
ASI Industries = Alpha Soft International Industries. (1990 - 1995)
ASI Industries = As i in does tries! (1996 - current date)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 9:30:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

kony writes:

> Were they good makes though?

The sleeve or the ball bearings? I don't know enough about makes to
know which is best, and often I'm constrained to what I can easily
obtain, anyway (rather than the best of the best, which may simply not
be available).

> True, it will collect more where there is slowing, BUT the
> origin of the dust, it's entry into the system is increased
> by this higher flow rate.

That's where filters come in.

Now, if you can recommend a filter (commercial or home-made) that will
effectively screen out housedust without too greatly impairing airflow
when placed in front of the fan, I'd be very interested. My current
fans have washable coarse plastic filters, but I think dust is getting
past those. I'd also prefer disposable filters to washable filters.

> I'm slowly beginning to abandon the idea of a single-density
> medium in favor of a double or triple layer filter. The
> primary problem is implementation in a typical case. While
> it's not so bad to do a couple cases for personal use
> (particularly when forethought allows setting up a new
> system thoroughly prior to migration from an older one), the
> issue of having a larger filter area than fan intake area
> makes it difficult to implement without significant case
> front modifications- something many people seem to shy away
> from when they've just received a new case. I sometimes
> argue that it's easier to do modification work prior to
> building into a case rather than later, but maybe it's the
> excitement of a new build, maybe the perceived value of a
> "new" case, for whatever the reason most often people seem
> to be building a system and THEN thinking about cooling
> rather than the other way around.

So what filters do you use? I should think a very thin, fine, diposable
filter would work pretty well. It should be possible to keep airflow
relatively high and filtering efficiency also very high if the filters
are designed correctly and replaced frequently.

> It doesn't necessarily matter, begin a trial use with only a
> few of them, continuing to make regular backups of data as
> always, then if they're viable for the purpose you'll have
> demonstrated it without significant disruption.

But is there a reason to buy sleeve bearings other than ball bearings?
I don't care if they are cheaper. And noise doesn't bother me. I just
want airflow and reliability.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
February 2, 2005 9:43:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:30:01 +0100, Mxsmanic
<mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> Were they good makes though?
>
>The sleeve or the ball bearings? I don't know enough about makes to
>know which is best, and often I'm constrained to what I can easily
>obtain, anyway (rather than the best of the best, which may simply not
>be available).
>
>> True, it will collect more where there is slowing, BUT the
>> origin of the dust, it's entry into the system is increased
>> by this higher flow rate.
>
>That's where filters come in.
>
>Now, if you can recommend a filter (commercial or home-made) that will
>effectively screen out housedust without too greatly impairing airflow
>when placed in front of the fan, I'd be very interested. My current
>fans have washable coarse plastic filters, but I think dust is getting
>past those. I'd also prefer disposable filters to washable filters.

Therein lies the problem, even with a filter that's not very
effective at filtering out smaller particules, the flow rate
will still be drastically cut. I don't think there's any
way around that except to have the largest filter surface
area possible. The way I did it last time was to mount the
fans flush with the case wall and put a large filter panel
about 20mm away from the fan intake, that filter panel
suspected with a thick sealed-foam tape surround such that
it kept it sealed.

The filter material I used was cheap enough to be considered
disposable but was washable, a panel meant for air
conditioners that was cut down to smaller pieces. Next time
I'll probably use accordian-folded paper fiber filters such
as 3M filtrete,
http://www.3m.com/us/home_leisure/filtrete/411_ultra.jh... ,
or more likely a generic somewhat-lower performance type
(but overall same construction) as it will be desirable to
have a little better airflow at the expense of not capturing
the smallest particles, not to mention a lower price. I
noted a local hardware store had some off-brand for less
than 1/4 the price and it still looked far better than any
other type of filtering medium. While that might work for a
bezel-internal filter, the pleating wouldn't be so welcome
over any other (like side-panel) fans.


>
>> I'm slowly beginning to abandon the idea of a single-density
>> medium in favor of a double or triple layer filter. The
>> primary problem is implementation in a typical case. While
>> it's not so bad to do a couple cases for personal use
>> (particularly when forethought allows setting up a new
>> system thoroughly prior to migration from an older one), the
>> issue of having a larger filter area than fan intake area
>> makes it difficult to implement without significant case
>> front modifications- something many people seem to shy away
>> from when they've just received a new case. I sometimes
>> argue that it's easier to do modification work prior to
>> building into a case rather than later, but maybe it's the
>> excitement of a new build, maybe the perceived value of a
>> "new" case, for whatever the reason most often people seem
>> to be building a system and THEN thinking about cooling
>> rather than the other way around.
>
>So what filters do you use? I should think a very thin, fine, diposable
>filter would work pretty well. It should be possible to keep airflow
>relatively high and filtering efficiency also very high if the filters
>are designed correctly and replaced frequently.

Depends on what you consider "relatively high" to mean.
Generally if they're worth installing at all the resultant
flow is 40% or lower than previously, and even worse with
thin fans, I try to use 38mm thick when possible... which
often isn't possible if the case doesn't have a particularly
spacious bezel or recessed drive bays. I'm fairly handy
with sheet-metal and could fab a different bay or move
existing bays but beyond a certain point it's a lot of work
compared to the benefit of leser filtration, which still may
take quite a while to build up. Plus I still try to keep
noise levels as low as possible, would prefer a quiet
slightly dusty system over an audible, spotless one.

>
>> It doesn't necessarily matter, begin a trial use with only a
>> few of them, continuing to make regular backups of data as
>> always, then if they're viable for the purpose you'll have
>> demonstrated it without significant disruption.
>
>But is there a reason to buy sleeve bearings other than ball bearings?
>I don't care if they are cheaper. And noise doesn't bother me. I just
>want airflow and reliability.

Sleeve bearings are quieter, and what noise they do make is
that of turbulence, little to no bearing noise. Most
people, myself included, fine the bearing whine more
distracting than lower pitched turbulent sounds.

They aren't cheaper, not the decent ones anyway. The Papst
are among the most expensive one can find, ignoring spot
pricing of the rare fans at electronics warehouses which
often tend to charge more. A good sleeve-bearing fan in a
moderate temp environment (preferribly not on the power
supply exhaust) and vertical mounting orientation can last
quite long. I have some well over 10 years old that are
still quieter than the average new ball-bearing fan.

If you absolutely dont' care about the noise there is no
reason to buy sleeve-bearing fans, except for some unusual
environement with a lot of shock-stress, as the ball-bearing
fans are not so good for shock resistance. Some of the
larger fan manufacturers might provide more data on this, as
offhand I don't recall the g-force tolernace of common
ball-bearing types... it's not ever an issue in a computer
for sure, even a laptop couldn't be treated that badly and
be expected to work beyond which fan was installed.
March 5, 2005 12:34:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.msi-microstar,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

13C is 55.4F.
Either he keeps his room very cold, or has a refrigerator for a cooler.
If neither of those two, the reading is out to lunch.

"Larc" <larc-news@jupiterlink.net> wrote in message
news:8v5qv0lg1si2av1pi83gfhlngkoktef1it@4ax.com...
> On 30 Jan 2005 11:56:49 GMT, "Jack" <jack@hello.com> wrote:
>
> | "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> | news:363vnmF4qh5v8U1@individual.net...
> | > Jack wrote:
> | >> "Parish" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> | >> news:363uqiF4pv6flU1@individual.net...
> | >>>
> | >>> Have you checked the release notes for the BIOS and CoreCenter
> updates
> | >>> that you installed? It could be that the old versions were
> misreporting
> | >>> the temps.
> | >>
> | >> I just did and one of the fixes was a misreported CPU temperature.
> :) 
> | >
> | > Well AMD must have done some good design work with the 64 then if it
> only
> | > hots 27C after 5 mins of MP3 encoding. Athlon XPs were very hot
> chips - my
> | > dual MP2800s idle at 45-50 depending on room temp, although they
> don't get
> | > much hotter when worked hard, thankfully :-)
> |
> | Hence the reason for my concern. I previously had an Athlon XP 2000 and
> it
> | ran anywhere between 40C and 60C - therefore my new chip running at 13C
> is
> | worryingly low for me... I find it hard to believe it's correct. :) 
>
> It's not correct unless your system is in a very cold room! 13C
> (55.4F) probably wouldn't even occur in an operating computer in an
> igloo!
>
> Larc
>
>
>
> §§§ - Change planet to earth to reply by email - §§§
!