Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

3 blown Power supply's in 6 months.

Last response: in Windows XP
Share
May 9, 2005 10:06:36 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Hi all,
I have a P.C. that keeps blowing power supply's.
It is P4 2.4, Gigabyte GA-8IG100MK Main Board in a "whitebox" of
unknown make.
Low spec AGP video card
2 x Optical drives
1 x 80gig Seagate Barracuda
The last power supply it blew was a Unicase 400W Silent power supply.


I has been plugged into a middle of the road surge protector the whole
time (which seems to fine.)
This has all happened in the same house; however there hasn't been any
other power problems.

I'm thinking maybe it's the case because the problems happend when the
unit is being switched o every time.
Anyone else seen something like this?
TIA

Rob
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:37 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Is the line power, from the electric company stable and
clean (no spikes, surges) ? Do you have any other
electrical problems? Is the computer on a circuit that is
isolated from heavy draw items such as motors (air
conditioners, washing machines) or do you see any
fluctuation in the lights?

Have you tried a "name brand" PSU from a company such as PC
Power & Cooling or Antec?


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


"RobW" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:ka6u71tqclh24kaekdbd9d33n1i3eb09tt@4ax.com...
| Hi all,
| I have a P.C. that keeps blowing power supply's.
| It is P4 2.4, Gigabyte GA-8IG100MK Main Board in a
"whitebox" of
| unknown make.
| Low spec AGP video card
| 2 x Optical drives
| 1 x 80gig Seagate Barracuda
| The last power supply it blew was a Unicase 400W Silent
power supply.
|
|
| I has been plugged into a middle of the road surge
protector the whole
| time (which seems to fine.)
| This has all happened in the same house; however there
hasn't been any
| other power problems.
|
| I'm thinking maybe it's the case because the problems
happend when the
| unit is being switched o every time.
| Anyone else seen something like this?
| TIA
|
| Rob
|
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:37 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.

"RobW" wrote:

> Hi all,
> I have a P.C. that keeps blowing power supply's.
> It is P4 2.4, Gigabyte GA-8IG100MK Main Board in a "whitebox" of
> unknown make.
> Low spec AGP video card
> 2 x Optical drives
> 1 x 80gig Seagate Barracuda
> The last power supply it blew was a Unicase 400W Silent power supply.
>
>
> I has been plugged into a middle of the road surge protector the whole
> time (which seems to fine.)
> This has all happened in the same house; however there hasn't been any
> other power problems.
>
> I'm thinking maybe it's the case because the problems happend when the
> unit is being switched o every time.
> Anyone else seen something like this?
> TIA
>
> Rob
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:37 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

The "common" middle of the road surge protector can only handle ONE/TWO
surges. After this, the surge protection does not exist!

Your power in your room/office is definiately BAD! You are going to have
problems like this forever. The only true ways to fix this are:

1) Call an electrician and have them put in an "isolated" power circuit for
your PC. (Expensive!!!)

2) Buy an line conditioning power regulator, or a UPS. These type of units
will "filter" the power so that the out-bound power is with-in the "safe"
range of the power supplies.

And, always use a 'name-brand' power supply. Antec and Enermax always use
"good" components in their PSUs and the PSUs are mostly correctly rated for
their WATTAGE. Generic PSUs are not worth the monet when the power is
"dirty".

"RobW" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:ka6u71tqclh24kaekdbd9d33n1i3eb09tt@4ax.com...
> Hi all,
> I have a P.C. that keeps blowing power supply's.
> It is P4 2.4, Gigabyte GA-8IG100MK Main Board in a "whitebox" of
> unknown make.
> Low spec AGP video card
> 2 x Optical drives
> 1 x 80gig Seagate Barracuda
> The last power supply it blew was a Unicase 400W Silent power supply.
>
>
> I has been plugged into a middle of the road surge protector the whole
> time (which seems to fine.)
> This has all happened in the same house; however there hasn't been any
> other power problems.
>
> I'm thinking maybe it's the case because the problems happend when the
> unit is being switched o every time.
> Anyone else seen something like this?
> TIA
>
> Rob
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:37 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

One more option to check. Make sure the PSU is set for the correct incoming
voltage. There is a red switch to set for 110/120 or 220/240.

"RobW" wrote:

> Hi all,
> I have a P.C. that keeps blowing power supply's.
> It is P4 2.4, Gigabyte GA-8IG100MK Main Board in a "whitebox" of
> unknown make.
> Low spec AGP video card
> 2 x Optical drives
> 1 x 80gig Seagate Barracuda
> The last power supply it blew was a Unicase 400W Silent power supply.
>
>
> I has been plugged into a middle of the road surge protector the whole
> time (which seems to fine.)
> This has all happened in the same house; however there hasn't been any
> other power problems.
>
> I'm thinking maybe it's the case because the problems happend when the
> unit is being switched o every time.
> Anyone else seen something like this?
> TIA
>
> Rob
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:38 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
> Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.

Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones I've seen connected
to computers in the US.

If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE INCOMMING POWER IS
GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the computer that's
overloading the PSU.

You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead - is it a fuse on one
of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something else.

Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would provide, but you
could have a shorted/intermittent connection where the screws mounting
the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times the installer will
not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will short a trace
without knowing it's been done.

Disconnect everything, reseat the computers motherboard on the chassis,
make sure that every mounting post is accounted for and that none are
shorting out traces on the board, same for the screws.

I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap over them short
out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose it
depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.

"Leythos" wrote:

> In article <10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
> JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
> > Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.
>
> Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones I've seen connected
> to computers in the US.
>
> If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE INCOMMING POWER IS
> GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the computer that's
> overloading the PSU.
>
> You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead - is it a fuse on one
> of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something else.
>
> Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would provide, but you
> could have a shorted/intermittent connection where the screws mounting
> the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times the installer will
> not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will short a trace
> without knowing it's been done.
>
> Disconnect everything, reseat the computers motherboard on the chassis,
> make sure that every mounting post is accounted for and that none are
> shorting out traces on the board, same for the screws.
>
> I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap over them short
> out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:40 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <AFADA9D7-AC21-4ACF-B079-8D9F8853EA97@microsoft.com>,
JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
> im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose it
> depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.

I agree then, not knowing where the OP was from, it's a good assumption
to guess at the fused power cord if his country requires such.


>
> "Leythos" wrote:
>
> > In article <10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
> > JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
> > > Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.
> >
> > Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones I've seen connected
> > to computers in the US.
> >
> > If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE INCOMMING POWER IS
> > GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the computer that's
> > overloading the PSU.
> >
> > You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead - is it a fuse on one
> > of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something else.
> >
> > Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would provide, but you
> > could have a shorted/intermittent connection where the screws mounting
> > the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times the installer will
> > not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will short a trace
> > without knowing it's been done.
> >
> > Disconnect everything, reseat the computers motherboard on the chassis,
> > make sure that every mounting post is accounted for and that none are
> > shorting out traces on the board, same for the screws.
> >
> > I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap over them short
> > out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > spam999free@rrohio.com
> > remove 999 in order to email me
> >
>

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:40 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Fuses don't protect electronics. After something electronic
has failed, a fuse may blow. This so the hardware failure
does not result in harm to humans. Do you think a fuse blows
to protect electronics? Electricity. First it flows through
everything in a circuit. Only then does something blow after
everything has been exposed to the same current flow. A 13
amp fuse is going to blow because more than 3 amps flowed
through a component rated only for 2 amps? Only when the 2
amp component shorts and starts drawing more like 13 amps.

J-Dee wrote:
> im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose it
> depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.
>
> "Leythos" wrote:
>
> > In article <10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
> > JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
> > > Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.
> >
> > Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones I've seen connected
> > to computers in the US.
> >
> > If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE INCOMMING POWER IS
> > GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the computer that's
> > overloading the PSU.
> >
> > You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead - is it a fuse on one
> > of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something else.
> >
> > Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would provide, but you
> > could have a shorted/intermittent connection where the screws mounting
> > the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times the installer will
> > not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will short a trace
> > without knowing it's been done.
> >
> > Disconnect everything, reseat the computers motherboard on the chassis,
> > make sure that every mounting post is accounted for and that none are
> > shorting out traces on the board, same for the screws.
> >
> > I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap over them short
> > out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > spam999free@rrohio.com
> > remove 999 in order to email me
> >
May 9, 2005 10:06:40 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

"J-Dee" <JDee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:AFADA9D7-AC21-4ACF-B079-8D9F8853EA97@microsoft.com...
> im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose
> it
> depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.


If that is true then the fuse needs to be the slow-blow type. The
sudden burst of amps surging through a normal fuse could easily blow it
when the computer is powered on. The slow-blow fuse will prevent it
from opening for a short one-time surge. However, if the fuse in the
power cord blew then the OP would be asking why he has to keep replacing
power cords or the fuses in them. He is saying that he is replacing
PSUs. Even if he replaced the PSU, it wouldn't work until he replaced
the power cord fuse, so he would've still mentioned having to replace
fuses. Doesn't sound like it is a fuse problem.

--
____________________________________________________________
** Post your replies to the newsgroup - Share with others **
For e-mail Reply: remove "DELETE", add "~VN56~" to Subject.
____________________________________________________________
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:41 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Tom

Take a look at this..

http://www.littelfuse.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/application/Com...

Fuses are not just found in domestic, industrial and automotive power supply
lines..

--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm





"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:427F6A46.BE6CE8F7@hotmail.com...
> Fuses don't protect electronics. After something electronic
> has failed, a fuse may blow. This so the hardware failure
> does not result in harm to humans. Do you think a fuse blows
> to protect electronics? Electricity. First it flows through
> everything in a circuit. Only then does something blow after
> everything has been exposed to the same current flow. A 13
> amp fuse is going to blow because more than 3 amps flowed
> through a component rated only for 2 amps? Only when the 2
> amp component shorts and starts drawing more like 13 amps.
>
> J-Dee wrote:
>> im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose it
>> depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.
>>
>> "Leythos" wrote:
>>
>> > In article <10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
>> > JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
>> > > Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.
>> >
>> > Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones I've seen
>> > connected
>> > to computers in the US.
>> >
>> > If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE INCOMMING POWER IS
>> > GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the computer that's
>> > overloading the PSU.
>> >
>> > You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead - is it a fuse on
>> > one
>> > of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something else.
>> >
>> > Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would provide, but you
>> > could have a shorted/intermittent connection where the screws mounting
>> > the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times the installer will
>> > not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will short a trace
>> > without knowing it's been done.
>> >
>> > Disconnect everything, reseat the computers motherboard on the chassis,
>> > make sure that every mounting post is accounted for and that none are
>> > shorting out traces on the board, same for the screws.
>> >
>> > I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap over them short
>> > out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.
>> >
>> > --
>> > --
>> > spam999free@rrohio.com
>> > remove 999 in order to email me
>> >
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:42 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Why did you provide a URL for circuit protection devices?
Those are not fuses? Did you assume that because it is a
Littelfuse product, then it must be a fuse? Or did you first
review the datasheets before posting? Cited are applications
for circuit protection devices .... which are not fuses.

Circuit protector devices and fuses are not the same
device. You have claims a device called TMOV is a fuse. That
is wrong. Go back and learn about TMOVs ... "available in 14
and 20 mm disc size with and without a monitor lead (to alert
you that the thermal element has opened). The 14 mm parts are
rated to 6kA and the 20 mm parts are rated to 10kA." Do you
claim these "6,000 and 10,000 amp fuses" would stop electronic
damage?

Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has happened
so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler should
know.

"Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
> Take a look at this..
> http://www.littelfuse.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/application/Com...
>
> Fuses are not just found in domestic, industrial and automotive
> power supply lines..
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:43 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <427F9404.C731F0AE@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has happened
> so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
> electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler should
> know.

Sorry, the fuse it sized to prevent damage to the lines/devices, not to
blow after the device has been damaged (although that may also happen).

The fuse is sized to protect some part of the device, be it power lines,
transformers, etc....


--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:43 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Tom

A fuse does NOT exist purely to save human life.. the fuses inside a hi-fi
power amplifier or CB or computer power supply are there to protect
circuits.. some will be fast blow, some will be slow blow, and some are
thermal types..

Note also that automotive fuses do NOT exist to save human life.. and if you
had followed any links on the URL given to you, that would have become
patently clear to you too..


--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm





"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:427F9404.C731F0AE@hotmail.com...
> Why did you provide a URL for circuit protection devices?
> Those are not fuses? Did you assume that because it is a
> Littelfuse product, then it must be a fuse? Or did you first
> review the datasheets before posting? Cited are applications
> for circuit protection devices .... which are not fuses.
>
> Circuit protector devices and fuses are not the same
> device. You have claims a device called TMOV is a fuse. That
> is wrong. Go back and learn about TMOVs ... "available in 14
> and 20 mm disc size with and without a monitor lead (to alert
> you that the thermal element has opened). The 14 mm parts are
> rated to 6kA and the 20 mm parts are rated to 10kA." Do you
> claim these "6,000 and 10,000 amp fuses" would stop electronic
> damage?
>
> Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has happened
> so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
> electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler should
> know.
>
> "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
>> Take a look at this..
>> http://www.littelfuse.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/application/Com...
>>
>> Fuses are not just found in domestic, industrial and automotive
>> power supply lines..
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

And again, fuse designed to blow so that "damage to the
lines/devices" created by component failure does not threaten
human life. Any device whose destruction can harm humans will
be disconnected by fuses and other equivalent 'one shot'
devices. The fuse is not installed to protect hardware. In
the process of protecting humans, a fuse may protect some
hardware - ie a power cord. But fuses are installed to
protect humans. Any protected hardware is incidental.

When a fuse blows in a power supply, a failed component
often causes that open fuse. Even shorting all power supply
outputs would not blow a fuse. The concept is called
fold-back current limiting. The fuse is for human
protection. It blows typically because a component inside the
supply has failed. Furthermore many power supplies don't use
fuses. Such human protection is found elsewhere in the power
supply design making the fuse unnecessary.

Leythos wrote:
> In article <427F9404.C731F0AE@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
>> Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has happened
>> so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
>> electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler should
>> know.
>
> Sorry, the fuse it sized to prevent damage to the lines/devices, not to
> blow after the device has been damaged (although that may also happen).
>
> The fuse is sized to protect some part of the device, be it power lines,
> transformers, etc....
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Fuses are rated by amps and time and are intended to open
the circuit before the wires emits smoke. In other words,
the fuse must blow before a fire starts. There are fast
fuses that protect some electronic circuits in devices such
as the resistance (ohms) circuit in a voltmeter.

There are also slow-blow fuses for use with motors.

There are ground fault detectors and there are Hall Effect
sensors which can detect problems in circuits.

One thing that the OP needs to tell, under what condition
and how fast does the PSU blow, does it work at all and
sometimes fail, or does it always fail immediately?


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce9666e70ec256d9896af@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
| In article <427F9404.C731F0AE@hotmail.com>,
w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
| > Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has
happened
| > so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
| > electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler
should
| > know.
|
| Sorry, the fuse it sized to prevent damage to the
lines/devices, not to
| blow after the device has been damaged (although that may
also happen).
|
| The fuse is sized to protect some part of the device, be
it power lines,
| transformers, etc....
|
|
| --
| --
| spam999free@rrohio.com
| remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Hell. There were times in my past career when I would not even fuse a 10HP
440/460V motor. I would rather have it burn up than have a fuse blow at an
inopportune time. Example: an emergency ventilator in an explosive
atmosphere. When the LFL (lower flammability limit) reached 7.5% that motor
came on and ran until the environment was again safe or the motor destroyed
itself because of "whatever"!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" <mike.hall.mail@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:u3fxqPMVFHA.3244@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> Tom
>
> A fuse does NOT exist purely to save human life.. the fuses inside a hi-fi
> power amplifier or CB or computer power supply are there to protect
> circuits.. some will be fast blow, some will be slow blow, and some are
> thermal types..
>
> Note also that automotive fuses do NOT exist to save human life.. and if
> you had followed any links on the URL given to you, that would have become
> patently clear to you too..
>
>
> --
> Mike Hall
> MVP - Windows Shell/User
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:427F9404.C731F0AE@hotmail.com...
>> Why did you provide a URL for circuit protection devices?
>> Those are not fuses? Did you assume that because it is a
>> Littelfuse product, then it must be a fuse? Or did you first
>> review the datasheets before posting? Cited are applications
>> for circuit protection devices .... which are not fuses.
>>
>> Circuit protector devices and fuses are not the same
>> device. You have claims a device called TMOV is a fuse. That
>> is wrong. Go back and learn about TMOVs ... "available in 14
>> and 20 mm disc size with and without a monitor lead (to alert
>> you that the thermal element has opened). The 14 mm parts are
>> rated to 6kA and the 20 mm parts are rated to 10kA." Do you
>> claim these "6,000 and 10,000 amp fuses" would stop electronic
>> damage?
>>
>> Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has happened
>> so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
>> electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler should
>> know.
>>
>> "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
>>> Take a look at this..
>>> http://www.littelfuse.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/application/Com...
>>>
>>> Fuses are not just found in domestic, industrial and automotive
>>> power supply lines..
>
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:45 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <427F9B3D.BA1F6643@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> When a fuse blows in a power supply, a failed component
> often causes that open fuse. Even shorting all power supply
> outputs would not blow a fuse.

That depends on the power supply design, but in most switched power
supply designs you are correct, they can sustain a shorted output for a
sustained period.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:06:45 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

As an industrial electrical designer (large industrial ovens and furnaces) I
always design and fuse for the protection of the device.


"w_tom" wrote:

> And again, fuse designed to blow so that "damage to the
> lines/devices" created by component failure does not threaten
> human life. Any device whose destruction can harm humans will
> be disconnected by fuses and other equivalent 'one shot'
> devices. The fuse is not installed to protect hardware. In
> the process of protecting humans, a fuse may protect some
> hardware - ie a power cord. But fuses are installed to
> protect humans. Any protected hardware is incidental.
>
> When a fuse blows in a power supply, a failed component
> often causes that open fuse. Even shorting all power supply
> outputs would not blow a fuse. The concept is called
> fold-back current limiting. The fuse is for human
> protection. It blows typically because a component inside the
> supply has failed. Furthermore many power supplies don't use
> fuses. Such human protection is found elsewhere in the power
> supply design making the fuse unnecessary.
>
> Leythos wrote:
> > In article <427F9404.C731F0AE@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> >> Again, fuses blow after the electronic damage has happened
> >> so that the human is not put at risk. This being basic
> >> electrical knowledge that even a computer assembler should
> >> know.
> >
> > Sorry, the fuse it sized to prevent damage to the lines/devices, not to
> > blow after the device has been damaged (although that may also happen).
> >
> > The fuse is sized to protect some part of the device, be it power lines,
> > transformers, etc....
>
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:26:11 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <AA9BE454-262A-4023-9FDF-251B39F5CEEF@microsoft.com>,
Falcon@discussions.microsoft.com says...
> As an industrial electrical designer (large industrial ovens and furnaces) I
> always design and fuse for the protection of the device.

As a designer that's worked in the industrial sector for almost 2
decades, I also spec fuses/breakers for the protection of the wiring and
device depending on the application. I don't recall ever fusing for
protection of personnel.

All the breakers in my SD panel in my home are sized based on the wire
gauge and not the devices connected to wiring. All of the fuses in the
non-switching PSU's I've used and or build were sized to protect the PSU
itself (components).

Wonder what else he's going to try and tell us this time.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:40:51 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <uxAX0VMVFHA.616@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>, <Vanguard> says...
> "J-Dee" <JDee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:AFADA9D7-AC21-4ACF-B079-8D9F8853EA97@microsoft.com...
> > im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose
> > it
> > depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.
>
>
> If that is true then the fuse needs to be the slow-blow type. The
> sudden burst of amps surging through a normal fuse could easily blow it
> when the computer is powered on. The slow-blow fuse will prevent it
> from opening for a short one-time surge. However, if the fuse in the
> power cord blew then the OP would be asking why he has to keep replacing
> power cords or the fuses in them. He is saying that he is replacing
> PSUs. Even if he replaced the PSU, it wouldn't work until he replaced
> the power cord fuse, so he would've still mentioned having to replace
> fuses. Doesn't sound like it is a fuse problem.

Actually the OP stated, later, that he found a fuse blown inside the PSU
once he opened it.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:40:52 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Another human life saved.. wow..

--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm





"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce978dfea9f8d829896b3@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <uxAX0VMVFHA.616@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl>, <Vanguard> says...
>> "J-Dee" <JDee@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:AFADA9D7-AC21-4ACF-B079-8D9F8853EA97@microsoft.com...
>> > im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose
>> > it
>> > depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.
>>
>>
>> If that is true then the fuse needs to be the slow-blow type. The
>> sudden burst of amps surging through a normal fuse could easily blow it
>> when the computer is powered on. The slow-blow fuse will prevent it
>> from opening for a short one-time surge. However, if the fuse in the
>> power cord blew then the OP would be asking why he has to keep replacing
>> power cords or the fuses in them. He is saying that he is replacing
>> PSUs. Even if he replaced the PSU, it wouldn't work until he replaced
>> the power cord fuse, so he would've still mentioned having to replace
>> fuses. Doesn't sound like it is a fuse problem.
>
> Actually the OP stated, later, that he found a fuse blown inside the PSU
> once he opened it.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:48:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <ek3F7XMVFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>,
richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
> Hell. There were times in my past career when I would not even fuse a 10HP
> 440/460V motor. I would rather have it burn up than have a fuse blow at an
> inopportune time. Example: an emergency ventilator in an explosive
> atmosphere. When the LFL (lower flammability limit) reached 7.5% that motor
> came on and ran until the environment was again safe or the motor destroyed
> itself because of "whatever"!

That's not right, if the motor is drawing too much current, there is a
reason, and continued running will generate excessive heat, which is
worse on a vent for an explosive environment. Heck, even the heaters
could kick-out a motor before the fuses did in some cases - where the
fuses were sized wrong.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 10:48:04 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

I would have wanted to have the motor draw too much current, and run for
another minute. That could be the difference between a massive explosion and
loss of human life OR the opportunity for the plant personnel to vacate!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce97a9593718fd49896b5@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <ek3F7XMVFHA.2664@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl>,
> richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
>> Hell. There were times in my past career when I would not even fuse a
>> 10HP
>> 440/460V motor. I would rather have it burn up than have a fuse blow at
>> an
>> inopportune time. Example: an emergency ventilator in an explosive
>> atmosphere. When the LFL (lower flammability limit) reached 7.5% that
>> motor
>> came on and ran until the environment was again safe or the motor
>> destroyed
>> itself because of "whatever"!
>
> That's not right, if the motor is drawing too much current, there is a
> reason, and continued running will generate excessive heat, which is
> worse on a vent for an explosive environment. Heck, even the heaters
> could kick-out a motor before the fuses did in some cases - where the
> fuses were sized wrong.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:20:10 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <uzIQQhMVFHA.2768@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>,
richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
> I would have wanted to have the motor draw too much current, and run for
> another minute. That could be the difference between a massive explosion and
> loss of human life OR the opportunity for the plant personnel to vacate!

I would have been afraid that the load could be caused by a shaft
bearing or some other physical condition that could lead to
sparks/excessive heat.

We used double exhaust systems in our grain systems, same in the cement
systems, in case one purge system didn't work.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:20:11 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

We designed in double and triple redundancy, but the final safety stage ran
till the last outcome - whatever that may have been!

Man, I would have hated to have to tell 20 widows and widowers that their
loved ones were dead because a $3.00 fuse blew and the exhauster went single
phase at 1/3 speed!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce9821b3e0cffe49896b7@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <uzIQQhMVFHA.2768@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl>,
> richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
>> I would have wanted to have the motor draw too much current, and run for
>> another minute. That could be the difference between a massive explosion
>> and
>> loss of human life OR the opportunity for the plant personnel to vacate!
>
> I would have been afraid that the load could be caused by a shaft
> bearing or some other physical condition that could lead to
> sparks/excessive heat.
>
> We used double exhaust systems in our grain systems, same in the cement
> systems, in case one purge system didn't work.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:21:56 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <OBWKXrMVFHA.3292@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
mike.hall.mail@sympatico.ca says...
> Another human life saved.. wow..

Mike, just in case you misunderstood my reply, I was also agreeing with
you. I've not seen much out of Tom that makes sense.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:21:57 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

He's out checking his books now (-:

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce982886ba079469896b8@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <OBWKXrMVFHA.3292@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
> mike.hall.mail@sympatico.ca says...
>> Another human life saved.. wow..
>
> Mike, just in case you misunderstood my reply, I was also agreeing with
> you. I've not seen much out of Tom that makes sense.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:21:57 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

I didn't misunderstand.. :-)

I was just so glad that the little fuse in the PS saved a life, is all.. lol

--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm





"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce982886ba079469896b8@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <OBWKXrMVFHA.3292@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
> mike.hall.mail@sympatico.ca says...
>> Another human life saved.. wow..
>
> Mike, just in case you misunderstood my reply, I was also agreeing with
> you. I've not seen much out of Tom that makes sense.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:47:02 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <#DBYC6MVFHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
> He's out checking his books now (-:

Yea, it was funny of him to tell me and a couple others that UPS's don't
protect from surges/transients, and then change the story to cheap UPS's
is what he meant.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 9, 2005 11:47:03 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Yes, I saw that!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce9886b877990129896ba@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <#DBYC6MVFHA.3636@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
> richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
>> He's out checking his books now (-:
>
> Yea, it was funny of him to tell me and a couple others that UPS's don't
> protect from surges/transients, and then change the story to cheap UPS's
> is what he meant.
>
> --
> --
> spam999free@rrohio.com
> remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 1:23:30 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Being a former electrician your AC circuit is not grounded. No amount of
surge protection will help you . Surge protectors rely mainly on the
circuits ground fault to discharge a surge in the line when it happens.

--
Peter

Please reply to newsgroup for the benefit of others.

"RobW" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:ka6u71tqclh24kaekdbd9d33n1i3eb09tt@4ax.com...
> Hi all,
> I have a P.C. that keeps blowing power supply's.
> It is P4 2.4, Gigabyte GA-8IG100MK Main Board in a "whitebox" of
> unknown make.
> Low spec AGP video card
> 2 x Optical drives
> 1 x 80gig Seagate Barracuda
> The last power supply it blew was a Unicase 400W Silent power supply.
>
>
> I has been plugged into a middle of the road surge protector the whole
> time (which seems to fine.)
> This has all happened in the same house; however there hasn't been any
> other power problems.
>
> I'm thinking maybe it's the case because the problems happend when the
> unit is being switched o every time.
> Anyone else seen something like this?
> TIA
>
> Rob
>
May 10, 2005 1:38:28 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

On Mon, 9 May 2005 04:39:39 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
<p51mustang[threeX12]@xxxhotmail.calm> wrote:

>Is the line power, from the electric company stable and
>clean (no spikes, surges) ? Do you have any other
>electrical problems? Is the computer on a circuit that is
>isolated from heavy draw items such as motors (air
>conditioners, washing machines) or do you see any
>fluctuation in the lights?
>
>Have you tried a "name brand" PSU from a company such as PC
>Power & Cooling or Antec?

Hi Jim,

Generally speaking the power from the electrical company is good.
No other electrical probs.
No heavy draw or fluctuation of lights either.
I haven't tried a name brand PSU as I have been too frightened it will
get fried like the others. Also, up to this point the supplier has
been replacing the PSU's under warranty.
They will no longer do this, :-) lol.
I'm really wondering if it is a problem with the case.
Especially since the damage seems to be happening when switching on
the machine.

Cheers.
Rob
May 10, 2005 3:58:59 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

I pulled the case and found a fuse that now resembles a used
firecracker which I guess came out of the PSU. (the PSU has a bottom
intake fan with large gaps).
I am going to take Leythos's suggestion and investigate which fuse on
the PSU is blown. I may have to get someone who knows what they are
looking at to examine it, :-).
I am in Australia and the mains is 240VAC.
The power leads have no fuses.
Thanks again and I will post the outcome for anyone who is interested.
Rob


On Mon, 09 May 2005 13:31:15 GMT, Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:

>In article <AFADA9D7-AC21-4ACF-B079-8D9F8853EA97@microsoft.com>,
>JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
>> im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in UK so suppose it
>> depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well be a problem.
>
>I agree then, not knowing where the OP was from, it's a good assumption
>to guess at the fused power cord if his country requires such.
>
>
>>
>> "Leythos" wrote:
>>
>> > In article <10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
>> > JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
>> > > Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.
>> >
>> > Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones I've seen connected
>> > to computers in the US.
>> >
>> > If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE INCOMMING POWER IS
>> > GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the computer that's
>> > overloading the PSU.
>> >
>> > You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead - is it a fuse on one
>> > of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something else.
>> >
>> > Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would provide, but you
>> > could have a shorted/intermittent connection where the screws mounting
>> > the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times the installer will
>> > not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will short a trace
>> > without knowing it's been done.
>> >
>> > Disconnect everything, reseat the computers motherboard on the chassis,
>> > make sure that every mounting post is accounted for and that none are
>> > shorting out traces on the board, same for the screws.
>> >
>> > I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap over them short
>> > out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.
>> >
>> > --
>> > --
>> > spam999free@rrohio.com
>> > remove 999 in order to email me
>> >
>>
>
>--
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 3:59:00 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Be careful poking around with/in power supplies, there are
rather large capacitors inside that can hold a lethal charge
for some time (weeks perhaps) and they need to be properly
discharged before you try to work inside. They will also
fry any meter you connect checking for resistance.

You can check for a shorted screw by using a DVM set to
resistance (ohms) and checking for continuity (0 ohms) where
the parts should be grounded together, or infinite
resistance between electric circuits and the case.


--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.


"RobW" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:73ru71p7dvmje37fag1hskidvu34m30jv2@4ax.com...
|I pulled the case and found a fuse that now resembles a
used
| firecracker which I guess came out of the PSU. (the PSU
has a bottom
| intake fan with large gaps).
| I am going to take Leythos's suggestion and investigate
which fuse on
| the PSU is blown. I may have to get someone who knows what
they are
| looking at to examine it, :-).
| I am in Australia and the mains is 240VAC.
| The power leads have no fuses.
| Thanks again and I will post the outcome for anyone who is
interested.
| Rob
|
|
| On Mon, 09 May 2005 13:31:15 GMT, Leythos
<void@nowhere.lan> wrote:
|
| >In article
<AFADA9D7-AC21-4ACF-B079-8D9F8853EA97@microsoft.com>,
| >JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
| >> im from UK and every power cable has to have a fuse in
UK so suppose it
| >> depends where your from. if you use fuses it could well
be a problem.
| >
| >I agree then, not knowing where the OP was from, it's a
good assumption
| >to guess at the fused power cord if his country requires
such.
| >
| >
| >>
| >> "Leythos" wrote:
| >>
| >> > In article
<10BC4506-70D3-4ED8-96C2-4D116A62B9D4@microsoft.com>,
| >> > JDee@discussions.microsoft.com says...
| >> > > Try another powercable it might have a faulty fuse.
| >> >
| >> > Power cables don't have fuses, at least not the ones
I've seen connected
| >> > to computers in the US.
| >> >
| >> > If you are killing PSU's and you are SURE THE
INCOMMING POWER IS
| >> > GOOD/Clean, then you've got a device inside the
computer that's
| >> > overloading the PSU.
| >> >
| >> > You need to determine what part of the PSU is dead -
is it a fuse on one
| >> > of the DC lines or one the AC of the PSU or something
else.
| >> >
| >> > Your spec's don't seem to need more than 350W would
provide, but you
| >> > could have a shorted/intermittent connection where
the screws mounting
| >> > the motherboard connect to the chassis - many times
the installer will
| >> > not use the proper screw size (screw heads) and will
short a trace
| >> > without knowing it's been done.
| >> >
| >> > Disconnect everything, reseat the computers
motherboard on the chassis,
| >> > make sure that every mounting post is accounted for
and that none are
| >> > shorting out traces on the board, same for the
screws.
| >> >
| >> > I've also seen power leads (for drives) without a cap
over them short
| >> > out on the metal parts of a case and blow a PSU.
| >> >
| >> > --
| >> > --
| >> > spam999free@rrohio.com
| >> > remove 999 in order to email me
| >> >
| >>
| >
| >--
|
May 10, 2005 3:59:00 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

"RobW" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:73ru71p7dvmje37fag1hskidvu34m30jv2@4ax.com...
>I pulled the case and found a fuse that now resembles a used
> firecracker which I guess came out of the PSU. (the PSU has a bottom
> intake fan with large gaps).
> I am going to take Leythos's suggestion and investigate which fuse on
> the PSU is blown. I may have to get someone who knows what they are
> looking at to examine it, :-).
> I am in Australia and the mains is 240VAC.
> The power leads have no fuses.
> Thanks again and I will post the outcome for anyone who is interested.


That fuse usually means you are drawing too many amps from the PSU. You
are overheating and overloading the PSU. See my other post regarding
the use of cheapie power supplies and why you cannot simply rely on the
stickered wattage rating. It also shows that you are using cheapie
PSUs. The better ones use a reset circuit that will reset after awhile
(when the heat dissipates). A fuse is cheaper.

--
____________________________________________________________
** Post your replies to the newsgroup - Share with others **
For e-mail Reply: remove "DELETE", add "~VN56~" to Subject.
____________________________________________________________
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 3:59:01 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <u#p6bgKVFHA.2520@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl>, p51mustang[threeX12]
@xxxhotmail.calm says...
> Be careful poking around with/in power supplies, there are
> rather large capacitors inside that can hold a lethal charge
> for some time (weeks perhaps) and they need to be properly
> discharged before you try to work inside. They will also
> fry any meter you connect checking for resistance.

Most computer PSU's use CAPS on the DC side and they don't have more
than 20+ VDC on most of them, the caps will also discharge in a short
amount of time due to the way a PSU is designed.

Now, if we were talking the HV circuit of a monitor/TV, I would agree
with you completely.

As with anything electrical - always disconnect power before working on
it and make sure there are no unsafe powers still available.

> You can check for a shorted screw by using a DVM set to
> resistance (ohms) and checking for continuity (0 ohms) where
> the parts should be grounded together, or infinite
> resistance between electric circuits and the case.

The screw, also connected to the chassis, should be a short to the power
supply ground, at least the screw eyes in many boards are also grounding
pads and will be the same as DC ground for the PSU. In many cases, due
to capacitors and other devices you can't get an infinite ohms reading
testing like you describe.

The best method is to take the motherboard back out of the case and see
if it's been improperly installed.

Since he mentioned a blown fuse inside the PSU, it would stand to reason
(since he said it's not on the AC Side) that he has an intermittent
short somewhere - as in a case/screw or wire missing insulation.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 3:59:02 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <OvhjkzMVFHA.2124@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>,
richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com says...
> When I was in Electronic school, courtesy of the Navy, we were in our 3
> phase section of training. We each had out own work module and fuse box.
> After coming back from coffee break one day a young fella a few seats down
> picks up the three phase leads and says "I wonder if these are hot?". He
> then touched two of the phases together. He woke up 3 days later in
> intensive care.

I was in AT (Avation Electronics Technician) training in Memphis around
84, I saw things like that once in a while during my 3 months there :) 

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 5:07:44 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Why do codes call for protection of that wire? A wire
destroyed by too much current causes fire. Fires threaten
humans. The wire is protected by fuse firstmost because a hot
and burned wire creates a threat to human life. We are not
first worried about the wire. We first worry about the
human. A primary function of fusing is protecting humans from
failure. Fuse may perform other secondary functions. But its
primary purpose as even defined by codes is human protection.
Fuses typically blow after hardware has failed. Fuses
typically do not just protect hardware.

Why would that fuse inside his power supply blow? Hardware
damage has already occurred. Did the fuse protect the power
supply from damage. Not likely. The fuse blew after damage
existed.

Next you will tell us how some UPS provides protection that
its own manufacturer does not even claim to provide.

Leythos wrote:
> As a designer that's worked in the industrial sector for almost 2
> decades, I also spec fuses/breakers for the protection of the wiring and
> device depending on the application. I don't recall ever fusing for
> protection of personnel.
>
> All the breakers in my SD panel in my home are sized based on the wire
> gauge and not the devices connected to wiring. All of the fuses in the
> non-switching PSU's I've used and or build were sized to protect the PSU
> itself (components).
>
> Wonder what else he's going to try and tell us this time.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 5:11:13 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Why do we fuse vehicles wires? Fuse also protects those
wires. But again, the primary purpose is to avoid car fires -
a threat to human life. Overloaded wires cause fires - a
threat to human life inside that car.

What happens if the power amplifier outputs excessive
power. Well clearly something inside that amp has already
failed. The fuse did not protect from the failure. It is
simply disconnecting as a result of the failure. Maybe it
will protect more transistors from failing in succession. But
a failure existed before the fuse blew.

The fuse blows typically when hardware has already failed.
#1 reason for fuses? Human safety. Why do we fuse to protect
wires? Again, number one reason to is avoid wire fires -
human safety.

Your links were for circuit protection devices such as TMOVs
- not for fuses. Circuit protection devices are not fuses.

"Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
> A fuse does NOT exist purely to save human life.. the fuses inside
> a hi-fi power amplifier or CB or computer power supply are there
> to protect circuits.. some will be fast blow, some will be slow
> blow, and some are thermal types..
>
> Note also that automotive fuses do NOT exist to save human life..
> and if you had followed any links on the URL given to you, that
> would have become patently clear to you too..
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 5:51:34 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Right. You protect the DEVICE, which in turn may save someone's life - or
not!

I have NEVER seen a fuse protected device prevent someone from getting
electrocuted if he stuck his hand in the control panel and grabbed a 220v
terminal, have you?

Therefore, a fuse does not protect human life directly. The human protection
is ancillary to protecting the DEVICE!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4280EA60.5420BCE0@hotmail.com...
> Why do codes call for protection of that wire? A wire
> destroyed by too much current causes fire. Fires threaten
> humans. The wire is protected by fuse firstmost because a hot
> and burned wire creates a threat to human life. We are not
> first worried about the wire. We first worry about the
> human. A primary function of fusing is protecting humans from
> failure. Fuse may perform other secondary functions. But its
> primary purpose as even defined by codes is human protection.
> Fuses typically blow after hardware has failed. Fuses
> typically do not just protect hardware.
>
> Why would that fuse inside his power supply blow? Hardware
> damage has already occurred. Did the fuse protect the power
> supply from damage. Not likely. The fuse blew after damage
> existed.
>
> Next you will tell us how some UPS provides protection that
> its own manufacturer does not even claim to provide.
>
> Leythos wrote:
>> As a designer that's worked in the industrial sector for almost 2
>> decades, I also spec fuses/breakers for the protection of the wiring and
>> device depending on the application. I don't recall ever fusing for
>> protection of personnel.
>>
>> All the breakers in my SD panel in my home are sized based on the wire
>> gauge and not the devices connected to wiring. All of the fuses in the
>> non-switching PSU's I've used and or build were sized to protect the PSU
>> itself (components).
>>
>> Wonder what else he's going to try and tell us this time.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 6:09:32 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

I said fuses protect human life. I did not say humans will
always be protected by fuses. But when a fuse blows, its
number one purpose is so that humans are not harmed.

Fuses are installed to protect humans. That does not mean
fuse will protection human from falling in the shower. That
does not mean a fuse always protects humans. But still fuse's
primary purpose as even defined by code is to protect the
human.

Returning to the original point - the fuse in a power
supply blows because hardware has failed. The fuse did not
stop hardware failure. It will stop further damage (ie fire)
as a result of that failure. Its' #1 purpose - to protect
human life. Protecting additional hardware may be ancillary
to its primary purpose often because that ancillary function
is necessary to protect human life. But a fuse did not stop
power supply damage. The damage occurred. Then the fuse blew.

A line cord fuse as used in UK does not protect the
hardware. If blows after damage has occurred. So that damage
does not harm humans, the fuse blows.

Richard Urban wrote:
> Right. You protect the DEVICE, which in turn may save someone's
> life - or not!
>
> I have NEVER seen a fuse protected device prevent someone from
> getting electrocuted if he stuck his hand in the control panel
> and grabbed a 220v terminal, have you?
>
> Therefore, a fuse does not protect human life directly. The human
> protection is ancillary to protecting the DEVICE!
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 10:56:09 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Good show. Thanks to powers that be (ie Mickey Mouse), you
can now demand royalties for something like seventy five years
- unless someone with deep pockets decides to sue. But then
that is a different 'human safety' issue using different
protection devices.

Richard Urban wrote:
> Hey! That phrase was copyrighted. You may send your check
> to..................... (-:
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 10:56:39 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <4280EA60.5420BCE0@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
>
> Why would that fuse inside his power supply blow? Hardware
> damage has already occurred. Did the fuse protect the power
> supply from damage. Not likely. The fuse blew after damage
> existed.

You are such a lamer. The fuse blew because the load was greater than
the rated value of the fuse for a longer period that the rated time for
the load.

It has nothing to do with Damage, it could simply have been an
undersized fuse in a product lot/batch or it could be an over-loaded
power supply, or a peripheral in the throws of going bad (but not
"damaged").

> Next you will tell us how some UPS provides protection that
> its own manufacturer does not even claim to provide.

I don't have to tell you anything, you know it all, and I've never
stated that a UPS does anything in relation to the vendors documents,
I've only made my many years of using quality UPS devices in the
experience of many conditions present in this group.

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 10:56:40 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

A few basic facts that Leythos forgets. Overloaded power
supplies have dedicated functions to protect themselves AND
without damage. And without using fuses. This function was
industry standard even 35 years ago. Industry standards even
demand it. The overloaded power supply must work just fine -
no parts replaced - after the overload is removed.

No fuse to protect power supply hardware from overloading.
There may be fuses to stop a wire fire. But Leythos again
demonstrates knowledge before learning facts. Power supplies
(and stereo power amps) contain internal protetion so that
overloading does not damage the equipment. Fuses are too
crude to accomplish that task. But a fuse can eliminate fires
that might harm humans after semiconductor failure has
occurred.

"Lamer" - Leythos is again demonstrating a wealth of
supporting technical facts - complete with numbers. Just what
I would expect from junk science reasoning.

Leythos wrote:
> You are such a lamer. The fuse blew because the load was greater than
> the rated value of the fuse for a longer period that the rated time for
> the load.
>
> It has nothing to do with Damage, it could simply have been an
> undersized fuse in a product lot/batch or it could be an over-loaded
> power supply, or a peripheral in the throws of going bad (but not
> "damaged").
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 10, 2005 11:03:56 PM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Boy, you do have a one track mind. Perchance did you screw up years ago
while you were learning and severely cause injury, or worse, to someone!
That would explain it.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:42813C09.77B7274E@hotmail.com...
> Good show. Thanks to powers that be (ie Mickey Mouse), you
> can now demand royalties for something like seventy five years
> - unless someone with deep pockets decides to sue. But then
> that is a different 'human safety' issue using different
> protection devices.
>
> Richard Urban wrote:
>> Hey! That phrase was copyrighted. You may send your check
>> to..................... (-:
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 11, 2005 12:54:46 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Problem of using fuses for hardware protection is their very
wide range of 'protection'. To appreciate the problem, learn
about the well understood I^2t curve. For example,
semiconductor devices will fail in microseconds. A
microseconds transient that exceeds the fuse current ratings
by factors of tens will not even blow the fuse. The fuse
takes tens of milliseconds (or longer) to blow. Fuse only
blows long after damage has occurred.

Fuses will do better on equipment that can take massive
overcurrent for a long times, such as large motors.

Review the numbers. For example, a 20 Amp fuse for
automotive protection would conduct 100 amps for 0.5 seconds
before opening. Or 40 amps for 9 seconds. And this assumes
ambient temperature is constant. The fuse must be sized to
not blow also at over 100 degrees F. However the same fuse
will now require 10% or more current to blow in winter
temperatures. Then there are waveforms for that overcurrent.
Then the manufacturer recommends adding another 20% margin of
safety.

We have assumed an ideal overcurrent - a square wave. That
100 amps might take twice as long to trip a 20 amp fuse if
current only averages 100 amps but really peaked at 200+ amps.
Variations mean that sizing a fuse for hardware protection
becomes difficult if not impossible.

This 20 amp fuse would be selected typically for loads that
may peak around 10 amps or less just to avoid nuisance
tripping. And yet a 100 amps short circuit is required could
make the fuse open in less than one second. IOW the fuse of
for protection after damage has occurred.

For UL approval, a fuse must open at 135% of rated power
within one hour. It must open within 2 minutes is the
overcurrent is 200%. That means to protect a 1 amp load, the
two amp fuse (the smallest selected so as to avoid most
nuisance tripping) would conduct 4 amps through the protected
appliance for minutes. Or 10 amps for 0.1 seconds. Ten times
more current through a 1 amp item - where is the hardware
protection? Does not exist.

Fuses were not for hardware protection. Fuses are installed
first and foremost for human safety. These are numbers.
Others are invited to demonstrate knowledge of numbers rather
than post "horseshit", "lamer", and other technical facts.

Fuses are excellent at stopping wire fires. The standard 20
amp electric wire should handle hundreds of amps without
damage (and fire). Long enough for a fuse to eventually open.
But fuses are woefully insufficient at avoiding appliance
damage. That I^2t curve, well understood by those with basic
electrical background, demonstrates the problem. Time even
tens of milliseconds for faster fuses is woefully too long to
protect electronics - such as a power supply.

Fuses don't even claim to protect appliances. Fuses are
installed to blow after a failure has happened. After current
well exceeds what is normal rated consumption. The fuse
provides human protection after damage has occurred. Above
numbers demonstrate that fact. Numbers rather than insults
demonstrate that fuses do not protect hardware. Fuses blow
after damage has occurred; for human safety.

Richard Urban wrote:
> I want the fuse to blow before damage to the hardware occurs. If
> the fuse is sized for the hardware's optimal current draw, that
> is what will happen. Then the hardware can be electrically
> repaired, the fuse replaced and the machine is again happy.
>
> By the way, I have repaired thousands of machines over the years
> that have blown fuses. With few exceptions they were all
> repairable and never again blew another fuse. And I am happy to
> say that no one died in the process. I guess the fuse saved their
> lives!
>
> That is great, but I still fuse to protect the equipment.
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 11, 2005 1:06:03 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Woww. Such hate. Such acidity even to a little humor. Are
you sure your name is not Leythos? Lighten up, son.

Richard Urban wrote:
> Boy, you do have a one track mind. Perchance did you screw up years
> ago while you were learning and severely cause injury, or worse, to
> someone! That would explain it.
>
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42813C09.77B7274E@hotmail.com...
>> Good show. Thanks to powers that be (ie Mickey Mouse), you
>> can now demand royalties for something like seventy five years
>> - unless someone with deep pockets decides to sue. But then
>> that is a different 'human safety' issue using different
>> protection devices.
>>
>> Richard Urban wrote:
>>> Hey! That phrase was copyrighted. You may send your check
>>> to..................... (-:
May 11, 2005 2:07:35 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

Hi all,
FYI the machine has been accepted back by the business who built it to
be repaired under warranty.
I have passed on the relevant suggestions posted on this thread and
hope they pull it down and check it according to your suggestions.
Thanks again and I will be sure to post the outcome. However it may be
a couple of weeks?
Rob
Anonymous
a b ) Power supply
May 11, 2005 2:07:36 AM

Archived from groups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware (More info?)

In article <m48181l9jhjotoi31gcn1o8gnvfbh87j3l@4ax.com>, none@none.com
says...
> Hi all,
> FYI the machine has been accepted back by the business who built it to
> be repaired under warranty.
> I have passed on the relevant suggestions posted on this thread and
> hope they pull it down and check it according to your suggestions.
> Thanks again and I will be sure to post the outcome. However it may be
> a couple of weeks?
> Rob

Just make sure that you install a quick-acting fuse in the shower matt
so that you are fully protected from slipping in the shower :) 

--
--
spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
!