Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd (More info?)

I want to do some power supply calculations.

In this document on the AMD website http://snipurl.com/5hnr it says
that some of the faster Duron processors have a max power
consumption of 57 Watts.

Is this 57 Watt power requirement of the Duron almost all delivered
by the PSU at 12 volts?

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd (More info?)

Zarbol Csar wrote:
> I want to do some power supply calculations.
>
> In this document on the AMD website http://snipurl.com/5hnr it says
> that some of the faster Duron processors have a max power
> consumption of 57 Watts.
>
> Is this 57 Watt power requirement of the Duron almost all delivered
> by the PSU at 12 volts?

Unless your board has a "P4" connector, it's pretty hard to know where it's
coming from. Most older ones pull it from the 3.3V line, some newer ones
pull it from the 5V line, and most very recent ones get it from the 12V
line. Any board with a "P4" connector almost certainly pull it from the 12V
line though.

--
Michael Brown
www.emboss.co.nz : OOS/RSI software and more
Add michael@ to emboss.co.nz - My inbox is always open

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd (More info?)

"Michael Brown" <see@signature.below> wrote:

>> I want to do some power supply calculations.
>>
>> In this document on the AMD website http://snipurl.com/5hnr
>> it says that some of the faster Duron processors have a max
>> power consumption of 57 Watts.
>>
>> Is this 57 Watt power requirement of the Duron almost all
>> delivered by the PSU at 12 volts?
>
> Unless your board has a "P4" connector, it's pretty hard to
> know where it's coming from. Most older ones pull it from the
> 3.3V line, some newer ones pull it from the 5V line, and most
> very recent ones get it from the 12V line. Any board with a
> "P4" connector almost certainly pull it from the 12V line
> though.


When you say "older ones" do you mean "older cpus" or do you mean
"older Durons"?

I came across this:

<QUOTE>
"Power supplies were engineered to provide significant amounts of
current on the +5V rail. Modern CPUs such as the Athlon and Pentium
4 run on the +12V rail. The problem is that many power supplies are
still based on older Pentium III-era designs and so even for many
mid-range gaming systems, chances are that the +12V component of
the power supply is not going to be adequate."
<UNQUOTE>

Taken from:
http://www.firingsquad.com/print_a [...] ion=Guides
&fs_article_id=1162

Howver, he does not mention Duron.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd (More info?)

Zarbol Csar wrote:
> "Michael Brown" <see@signature.below> wrote:
>
>>> I want to do some power supply calculations.
>>>
>>> In this document on the AMD website http://snipurl.com/5hnr
>>> it says that some of the faster Duron processors have a max
>>> power consumption of 57 Watts.
>>>
>>> Is this 57 Watt power requirement of the Duron almost all
>>> delivered by the PSU at 12 volts?
>>
>> Unless your board has a "P4" connector, it's pretty hard to
>> know where it's coming from. Most older ones pull it from the
>> 3.3V line, some newer ones pull it from the 5V line, and most
>> very recent ones get it from the 12V line. Any board with a
>> "P4" connector almost certainly pull it from the 12V line
>> though.
>
>
> When you say "older ones" do you mean "older cpus" or do you mean
> "older Durons"?

The CPU has nothing to do with where the power is drawn from. It's all up to
the motherboard, but very few motherboard manufacturers mention what the
board uses to power the CPU. So by "older ones" I mean older motherboards.

[...]

--
Michael Brown
www.emboss.co.nz : OOS/RSI software and more
Add michael@ to emboss.co.nz - My inbox is always open

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd (More info?)

> When you say "older ones" do you mean "older cpus" or do you mean
> "older Durons"?
>
> I came across this:
>
> <QUOTE>
> "Power supplies were engineered to provide significant amounts of
> current on the +5V rail. Modern CPUs such as the Athlon and Pentium
> 4 run on the +12V rail. The problem is that many power supplies are
> still based on older Pentium III-era designs and so even for many
> mid-range gaming systems, chances are that the +12V component of
> the power supply is not going to be adequate."
> <UNQUOTE>
>
> Taken from:
> http://www.firingsquad.com/print_a [...] ion=Guides
> &fs_article_id=1162
>
> Howver, he does not mention Duron.

Why are you looking for the answer to such a thing anyhow. The group might
be able to answer a more specfic question if you ask it (I notice some
incorrect quotes on that page).. Anyhow, through out your big question here
and you might be surprised.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

>> <QUOTE>
>> "Power supplies were engineered to provide significant
>> amounts of current on the +5V rail. Modern CPUs such as the
>> Athlon and Pentium 4 run on the +12V rail. The problem is
>> that many power supplies are still based on older Pentium
>> III-era designs and so even for many mid-range gaming
>> systems, chances are that the +12V component of the power
>> supply is not going to be adequate." <UNQUOTE>
>>
>> Taken from http://tinyurl.com/2dut7
>>
>> Howver, he does not specifically mention Duron.


"rstlne" <.@text.news.virgin.net> replied:
>
> Why are you looking for the answer to such a thing anyhow.
> The group might be able to answer a more specfic question if
> you ask it (I notice some incorrect quotes on that page)..
> Anyhow, through out your big question here and you might be
> surprised.


Hi there. Thanks for the reply.

My *real* question is .. will my FSP250 PSU support a much faster
processor than the Duron 700 I have already got.

So maybe I can go to a Duron 1800 without spending money on a new
PSU. If I have to buy a new PSU then I will go for an Athlon.

Below are some details of my figures. If someone like yourself (or
anyone else) can look through them then I would be grateful.

If the Duron 1800 compared to the 700 only needs an extra 2 amps at
12v then maybe I can always unhook a single dish drive to get the
extra 2 amp capacity? See below.

Piotr


===== BEGIN DETAILS ========

My PSU details at http://tinyurl.com/3c4ht say this:

+12v 13A
+5v 27A
+3.3 20A
3.3 and 5 combined = 175 W

According to AMD (http://tinyurl.com/25o2g) the 1800 has about
twice the power consumption of the 700. Max 57W and max 31W.

Unfortunately http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm does not list a
Duron 1800 so I can't get the "typical power consumption" value
from there.

Page 7 of AMD's own document building systems has a section on
power consumption http://tinyurl.com/7a2s. It points out that hard
drives can each need about 2 amps at 12 volt. I have *five* HDDS
and will soon add a sixth! All but one is 7200.

My copy of Motherboard Monitor shows my 12v as being actually
11.81v (only 1.6% low). Atthe same time MB Probe shows 11.78v
(only 1.8% low).

===== END DETAILS ======



--
Note: crosspost widened to relevant groups.

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On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 10:22:51 +0100, Piotr Makley <pmakley@mail.com> wrote:


>Hi there. Thanks for the reply.
>
>My *real* question is .. will my FSP250 PSU support a much faster
>processor than the Duron 700 I have already got.
>
>So maybe I can go to a Duron 1800 without spending money on a new
>PSU. If I have to buy a new PSU then I will go for an Athlon.
>
>Below are some details of my figures. If someone like yourself (or
>anyone else) can look through them then I would be grateful.
>
>If the Duron 1800 compared to the 700 only needs an extra 2 amps at
>12v then maybe I can always unhook a single dish drive to get the
>extra 2 amp capacity? See below.
>
>Piotr
>
>
>===== BEGIN DETAILS ========
>
>My PSU details at http://tinyurl.com/3c4ht say this:
>
> +12v 13A
> +5v 27A
> +3.3 20A
> 3.3 and 5 combined = 175 W
>
>According to AMD (http://tinyurl.com/25o2g) the 1800 has about
>twice the power consumption of the 700. Max 57W and max 31W.
>
>Unfortunately http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm does not list a
>Duron 1800 so I can't get the "typical power consumption" value
>from there.
>
>Page 7 of AMD's own document building systems has a section on
>power consumption http://tinyurl.com/7a2s. It points out that hard
>drives can each need about 2 amps at 12 volt. I have *five* HDDS
>and will soon add a sixth! All but one is 7200.
>
>My copy of Motherboard Monitor shows my 12v as being actually
>11.81v (only 1.6% low). Atthe same time MB Probe shows 11.78v
>(only 1.8% low).
>
>===== END DETAILS ======


First of all, it is just plain incorrect for anyone to state that a modern
Athlon "uses 12V power. The truth is that the majority of Athlon
motherboards still use 5V for CPU power. It is a proven fact. Only a
large percentage of nForce2 boards and a very low number of others use 12V
for an Athlon or Duron. In other words, the motherboard is the variable
here, you need to consider your motherboard.

Also, the wattage printed on a power supply label is not necessarily
accurate. Even a Sparkle "250W" can mean different things based on the
exact model. Some Sparkle 250W have higher output than others. Offhand I
recall at least two versions, the "GT" model is lower output than the
"ATV" (last two letters in model name). I don't recall seeing a "GTV" as
you linked, but perhaps that's the "GT" I was thinking of.

Anyway, all of the above is somewhat irrelevant, you should get a larger
power supply because you're running 5 hard drives plus planning
upgrade(s). The goal of matching a power supply to a system is not to
calculate down to the last amp or two, but to use a unit with plenty of
reserve capacity, that's running at lower than maximum possible output to
reduce ripple, decrease response time, and promote longer power supply and
motherboard lifespan.

That means buying a name-brand so you can have more confidence in the
specs on the label. If you like Sparkle power supplies then you might
consider their 400W models. A good power supply will last several years,
though multiple system upgrades. There's no sign of future systems using
any less power so you might as well get a unit that will support more than
you presently need, especially since you appear to like so many hard
drives.

On the other hand, if you just want the bottom line, if your current
motherboard uses 5V for CPU power then you'll most likley be able to
upgrade the 700MHz CPU to an 1800 Duron without changing the power
supply... but then again it's closer and closer to it's max capacity, may
wear out sooner and probably isn't all that new anyway either. It might
soon be time to replace it regardless of the planned upgrade to the CPU,
or if it has a sleeve bearing Yate Loon fan in it you might, at the very
least, want to put a drop of heavy oil in it as those Yate Loon fans are
subject to seize, failing in the worst possibly way by simply not spinning
up the next time you power on the system so the power supply start to bake
inside, making it not worthwhile to replace the fan by the time (most
people would realize) the fan isn't working... It's fairly easy to
overlook a fan that's silent because it has seized.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

..
>
>
> "rstlne" <.@text.news.virgin.net> replied:
> >
> > Why are you looking for the answer to such a thing anyhow.
> > The group might be able to answer a more specfic question if
> > you ask it (I notice some incorrect quotes on that page)..
> > Anyhow, through out your big question here and you might be
> > surprised.
>
>
> Hi there. Thanks for the reply.
>
> My *real* question is .. will my FSP250 PSU support a much faster
> processor than the Duron 700 I have already got.
>
> So maybe I can go to a Duron 1800 without spending money on a new
> PSU. If I have to buy a new PSU then I will go for an Athlon.
>
> Below are some details of my figures. If someone like yourself (or
> anyone else) can look through them then I would be grateful.
>
> If the Duron 1800 compared to the 700 only needs an extra 2 amps at
> 12v then maybe I can always unhook a single dish drive to get the
> extra 2 amp capacity? See below.
>
> Piotr
>

I would go for the new supply..
It sounds like you might be running it not too far from it's limits now,
adding a hard drive will just make things a little worse.

It might work if you do add the new processor & HD but I would hazard that
the supplys gonna not be up to the task for a verry long time.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

> you should
> get a larger power supply because you're running 5 hard drives
> plus planning upgrade(s). The goal of matching a power supply
> to a system is not to calculate down to the last amp or two,
> but to use a unit with plenty of reserve capacity, that's
> running at lower than maximum possible output to reduce
> ripple, decrease response time, and promote longer power
> supply and motherboard lifespan.
>
> That means buying a name-brand so you can have more confidence
> in the specs on the label. If you like Sparkle power supplies
> then you might consider their 400W models. A good power
> supply will last several years, though multiple system
> upgrades. There's no sign of future systems using any less
> power so you might as well get a unit that will support more
> than you presently need, especially since you appear to like
> so many hard drives.

Kony, thanks for taking time to give me such a detailed reply.

To give you an idea of where I am coming from ... I'm on a limited
budget and I don't really need top-end power. In fact trailing-
edge power is more my sort of thing!

Yup, I agree wwith you about buying name brand PSUs. I was
thinking of something like a Nexus because they are quiet.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article131-page1.html
http://www.skenegroup.net/en/articles/nexus_en.3
spec at http://www.nexustek.nl/nx3500.htm

But a PSU like that isn't cheap and I am concerned that some people
say the new BTX format Intel is pushing this year will need
different a differnt PSU than the current ATX PSUs. Others say
that BTX will use the same ATX PSUs.

Well, i don't want to be like a guy who buys a car at full price
when the new range has already been announced!

I would happily get a decent PSU if it was going to last me but I
plan to get a new mobo at the end of the year and if BTX catches on
then I want to get a BTX-compatible PSU.



> On the other hand, if you just want the bottom line, if your
> current motherboard uses 5V for CPU power then you'll most
> likley be able to upgrade the 700MHz CPU to an 1800 Duron
> without changing the power supply...

That what I thought but then I realised that I need to take into
account the five (and soon six) hard drives I have as they are not
going to need insignificant power.

So I ended up back at square one and wanted to calculate the power
requirement.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 14:57:08 +0100, Zarbol Csar <zarbol@csar.net> wrote:

>To give you an idea of where I am coming from ... I'm on a limited
>budget and I don't really need top-end power. In fact trailing-
>edge power is more my sort of thing!

Completely up to you... Sparkle power supplies are a great value but if
you want to run a lot of drives, modern equipment, you need the watts to
power this... note that the industry has moved to 300W and larger power
supplies for base systems, not those with 5 hard drives.


>
>Yup, I agree wwith you about buying name brand PSUs. I was
>thinking of something like a Nexus because they are quiet.
>
> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article131-page1.html
> http://www.skenegroup.net/en/articles/nexus_en.3
> spec at http://www.nexustek.nl/nx3500.htm

It looks a bit like a well-dressed Sparkle/Fortron. They make a few
models with the 12cm fan that are quiet. If Sparkle/Fortron are common in
your area you may find you're cutting out the middleman by not paying for
the eye candy or Nexus label but just the Sparkle/Fortron power supply.

>
>But a PSU like that isn't cheap and I am concerned that some people
>say the new BTX format Intel is pushing this year will need
>different a differnt PSU than the current ATX PSUs. Others say
>that BTX will use the same ATX PSUs.

BTX is to use, be compatible with ATX PSU... for the most future support
you might want a power supply with SATA drive power connectors. I don't
know which particular models have the SATA drive connectors.

>Well, i don't want to be like a guy who buys a car at full price
>when the new range has already been announced!


>I would happily get a decent PSU if it was going to last me but I
>plan to get a new mobo at the end of the year and if BTX catches on
>then I want to get a BTX-compatible PSU.

The end of the year is only 8 months away... skip the upgrade to the Duron
and just build a new ATX system now. There's no great gain in having a
BTX system, at first they'll just be more expensive due to manufacturers
recouping development costs.

>
>
>
>> On the other hand, if you just want the bottom line, if your
>> current motherboard uses 5V for CPU power then you'll most
>> likley be able to upgrade the 700MHz CPU to an 1800 Duron
>> without changing the power supply...
>
>That what I thought but then I realised that I need to take into
>account the five (and soon six) hard drives I have as they are not
>going to need insignificant power.
>
>So I ended up back at square one and wanted to calculate the power
>requirement.

Soon six? If these aren't modern large-capacity drives you might consider
replacing several old drives with fewer, larger drives. If nothing else
that should decrease noise levels. Considering your plan for hard drives
and CPU I suggest a 350W-400W Sparkle/Fortron or Antec Truepower.

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt,uk.comp.homebuilt (More info?)

You could put in the Duron 1800 and look at your voltages. If they're ok,
and not starting to fluctuate madly, then it may be ok. If they drop, you
could then grab a new psu.

As to those fans, I had the fan seize up in my cheap Premier 300w psu, so I
put in a Vantec Stealth 80mm which is quiet and still moves enough air. But
the psu was losing voltage after I upgraded to XP2000+, ti4200, and 2
7200rpm hd's, so I got an Antec 300w and its fan ran too slow to keep hot
air away from the CD. I put the Stealth fan in and ran its wire out to the
motherboard. Now it's fine.

Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at
uce@ftc.gov
Thanks, robots.

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>>>> I want to do some power supply calculations.
>>>>
>>>> In this document on the AMD website http://snipurl.com/5hnr
>>>> it says that some of the faster Duron processors have a max
>>>> power consumption of 57 Watts.
>>>>
>>>> Is this 57 Watt power requirement of the Duron almost all
>>>> delivered by the PSU at 12 volts?
>>>
>>> Unless your board has a "P4" connector, it's pretty hard to
>>> know where it's coming from. Most older ones pull it from
>>> the 3.3V line, some newer ones pull it from the 5V line, and
>>> most very recent ones get it from the 12V line. Any board
>>> with a "P4" connector almost certainly pull it from the 12V
>>> line though.
>>
>>
>> When you say "older ones" do you mean "older cpus" or do you
>> mean "older Durons"?

"Michael Brown" <see@signature.below> wrote:
>
> The CPU has nothing to do with where the power is drawn from.
> It's all up to the motherboard, but very few motherboard
> manufacturers mention what the board uses to power the CPU. So
> by "older ones" I mean older motherboards.


Michael, I mentioned that I had heard that a cpu draws power mostly
at 12V. You replied that "The CPU has nothing to do with where the
power is drawn from. It's all up to the motherboard".

I went back to the AMD "Builder's Guide" available from this URL:
http://www.amd.com/us-
en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26003.pdf

On page 7 (page 13 of 24 usng Adobe) AMD do a worked calculation
for an Athlon 1800 and without knowing the mobo they have put all
its power requirement in the 12 volt column.

Does this example suggest that it is quite likely that the cpu
power will be drawn at 12 volts? Of course I am guessing.

In other words, wouldn't it be a good rule of thumb to simply say
that 12v can be assumed except in unusual circumstances? Is this
wrong?