Power supply EXPLOSION

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Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.

It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the airflow they expected?

Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's autorebuilding it in the background.

http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail


--
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"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message news:<opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue>...

> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
>
> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks
> cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer,
> which didn't get the airflow they expected?
>
> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about
> 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had
> lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the
> PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds,
> at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all
> intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
> drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted,
> but it's autorebuilding it in the background.
>
> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail

PSUFAIL1.JPG seems to show an LM339, a voltage comparator and not a
chip that normally handles high amounts of power. So I believe it
failed due to excessive voltage, not heat. That's not to say that the
high voltage wasn't caused by excessive heat somewhere else, and the
burned capacitor in PSUFAIL3.JPG could indicate that the main
transformeer got too hot and saturated, which can cause the current
through its coupling capacitor to increase greatly. I'm not sure what
PSUFAIL2.JPG is, but it looks like a transformer, and in PSUFAIL4.JPG,
it's possible that heavily-burned resistor R7 is either a load
resistor (some power supplies won't start without one, and excessive
voltage can burn it out) or part of a snubber (filter to eliminate
unwanted oscillations -- too much oscillation can burn it out).

In the process of testing the water cooling, did you put a temperature
probe on each of the power components? This can be risky because of
the high voltage, but there are probes with metal exposed only at the
tip, or for the more daring a dial thermometer (like a meat
thermometer) can be used if it's covered with a few layers of
heatshrink tubing. Transformer saturation is a big concern among
power supply designers, and heat makes them saturate at lower power
levels.

 

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WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..

That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to
me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..

Case Circulation is good to have anyhow when you have a few harddrives in
the system..


"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
newspsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
>
> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
airflow they expected?
>
> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
autorebuilding it in the background.
>
> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
>
>
> --
> *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing
http://www.petersparrots.com
> 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
> 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
> Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid
>
> Polynesia -- memory loss in parrots.

 

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That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.

Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, rstlne <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

> WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
> So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..
>
> That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to
> me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..
>
> Case Circulation is good to have anyhow when you have a few harddrives in
> the system..
>
>
> "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> newspsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
>> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
>>
>> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
> what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
> airflow they expected?
>>
>> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
> flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
> fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
> happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
> off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
> drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
> autorebuilding it in the background.
>>
>> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
>>
>>
>> --
>> *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing
> http://www.petersparrots.com
>> 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
>> 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
>> Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid
>>
>> Polynesia -- memory loss in parrots.
>
>
>



--
*****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

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Sometimes it's kind of hard to get the first piece, but after that you can rip one off anytime.

 

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"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
>
> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
>


Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
done).

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, rstlne <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

>
> "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
>> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
> I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
>>
>> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
>>
>
>
> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
> done).

NB?

I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling.



--
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93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

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"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
newspsbhu1umfaiowgp@blue...
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, rstlne <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> > newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
> >> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it,
but
> > I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
> >>
> >> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
> > Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a
couple
> > of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
> > done).
>
> NB?
>
> I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed
cooling.
>

Ahhhh
yea I see what you did now
...
Yea you probably needed a verry small airflow.. But nearly all of the heat
comes from those 5/6 (or 8/9 on some) amps that are connected to the 2
(sometimes 3) sinks..

I find it verry strange myself, Are you sure that there wasnt any leaking or
that even there wasnt possilbly metal shavings inside the unit after
installing the blocks?

 

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"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
newspsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
>
> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
airflow they expected?
>
> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
autorebuilding it in the background.
>
> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
>
Watercooling in a power supply...
You must be crazy, my friend !!! And very lucky, having so
little damage.
For the same price, you could have your motherboard, CPU, RAM, graphic card
and even disks completely destroyed.
On top, if your PSU is powerful enough for your hardware configuration,
there is absolutely no need for extra cooling in a normal case with normal
air flow.

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:16:50 GMT, ElJerid <s.vanderhaeghen.nospam@pandora.be> wrote:

>
> "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> newspsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
>> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
>>
>> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
> what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
> airflow they expected?
>>
>> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
> flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
> fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
> happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
> off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
> drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
> autorebuilding it in the background.
>>
>> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
>>
> Watercooling in a power supply...
> You must be crazy, my friend !!! And very lucky, having so
> little damage.
> For the same price, you could have your motherboard, CPU, RAM, graphic card
> and even disks completely destroyed.

Well one disk in my mirror stripe became corrupt, but it's autorebuilding it in the background.

> On top, if your PSU is powerful enough for your hardware configuration,
> there is absolutely no need for extra cooling in a normal case with normal
> air flow.

What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans!



--
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93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

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On 21 Jul 2004 13:21:24 -0700, do_not_spam_me <do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com> wrote:

> "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message news:<opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue>...
>
>> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
>>
>> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks
>> cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer,
>> which didn't get the airflow they expected?
>>
>> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about
>> 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had
>> lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the
>> PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds,
>> at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all
>> intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
>> drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted,
>> but it's autorebuilding it in the background.
>>
>> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
>
> PSUFAIL1.JPG seems to show an LM339, a voltage comparator and not a
> chip that normally handles high amounts of power. So I believe it
> failed due to excessive voltage, not heat. That's not to say that the
> high voltage wasn't caused by excessive heat somewhere else, and the
> burned capacitor in PSUFAIL3.JPG could indicate that the main
> transformeer got too hot and saturated, which can cause the current
> through its coupling capacitor to increase greatly. I'm not sure what
> PSUFAIL2.JPG is, but it looks like a transformer, and in PSUFAIL4.JPG,
> it's possible that heavily-burned resistor R7 is either a load
> resistor (some power supplies won't start without one, and excessive
> voltage can burn it out) or part of a snubber (filter to eliminate
> unwanted oscillations -- too much oscillation can burn it out).
>
> In the process of testing the water cooling, did you put a temperature
> probe on each of the power components? This can be risky because of
> the high voltage, but there are probes with metal exposed only at the
> tip, or for the more daring a dial thermometer (like a meat
> thermometer) can be used if it's covered with a few layers of
> heatshrink tubing. Transformer saturation is a big concern among
> power supply designers, and heat makes them saturate at lower power
> levels.

I checked the heatsink temperatures with my finger. Didn't think anything else would need it.




--
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1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, "rstlne"
<.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

>WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
>So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..


Completely untrue.
Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool.
"Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing
removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect
assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow.

Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme
environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly
same area to cool motherboard power regulators.

Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's
connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could
do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the
socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is
far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any
electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd
be needed there, but there are multiple reasons.


>
>That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to
>me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..

Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less
airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees
cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing
that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means
lower volume is needed for same temp drop.

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, "rstlne"
<.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

>
>"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
>> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
>I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
>>
>> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
>>
>
>
>Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
>Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
>of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
>done).
>

Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.

 

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"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote

> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.

Is this nice?

http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm

And this (not a psu) ?

http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm


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MS Smiley :-\

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uce@ftc.gov
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:38:08 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
<hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


>> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
>> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
>> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
>> done).
>
>NB?
>
>I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling.

Yes, the best solution would've been to simply leave the power
supply alone and install a lower flow fan, with rear grill
removed, then mod the REST of the system case to provide positive
pressurization that forces more air though the power supply.

Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
supply than just keeping the regulators cool.

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:57 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
<hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


>What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans!

Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
use fans on a lark.

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:06:24 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, "rstlne"
> <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> newspsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
>>> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
>> I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
>>>
>>> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
>> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
>> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
>> done).
>>
>
> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
> The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
> actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
> will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
> fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
> chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
> system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
> unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
> components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.

Some I saw said 3 year warranty

And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.




--
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93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:10:30 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:38:08 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
>>> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
>>> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
>>> done).
>>
>> NB?
>>
>> I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling.
>
> Yes, the best solution would've been to simply leave the power
> supply alone and install a lower flow fan, with rear grill
> removed, then mod the REST of the system case to provide positive
> pressurization that forces more air though the power supply.
>
> Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
> supply than just keeping the regulators cool.

The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.


--
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93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:14:53 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:57 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans!
>
> Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
> amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
> flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
> make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
> implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
> less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
> quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
> use fans on a lark.

The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans.

The mac cube was designed without fans.


--
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Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
<hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


>> Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
>> supply than just keeping the regulators cool.
>
>The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.

What is irritating about a fan you can't hear?

Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan
cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case
scenarios with water pumps.

I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I
have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that
have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that.
Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card
needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise
reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained.
First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock
fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA.

Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked,
water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates
as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst), then
either giant passive radiator is used or fan is still needed on
radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow.
As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you
have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there
is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but
temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan
degradation (capacitors).

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
<hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:

>> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
>> The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
>> actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
>> will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
>> fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
>> chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
>> system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
>> unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
>> components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
>
>Some I saw said 3 year warranty
>
>And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.

But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the
exemption of liability to system component damage.

Consider this example:

I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
but so are many generic psu.
Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
(hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
"could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).

Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
same true wattage.

 

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kony wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
>>>The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
>>>actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
>>>will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
>>>fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
>>>chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
>>>system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
>>>unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
>>>components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
>>
>>Some I saw said 3 year warranty
>>
>>And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.
>
>
> But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the
> exemption of liability to system component damage.

He may be, but then you seem to be presuming things not in evidence.

>
> Consider this example:
>
> I sell you a 9V battery for $150.

Good luck. LOL

> I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.

Second big mistake.

I mean, a ridiculous price on a device, and a warranty, that is clearly
unfit for the intended purpose: you're out of business already, even before
the lawyers lined up to sue.

> Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
> but so are many generic psu.

Your device being 'unfit' is prima facia. Your claim that the others are is
merely opinion based on lord knows what.

> Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
> (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
> month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
> mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
> retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
> solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme

Unfortunately, it is so absurd as to be of no illustrative value because it
is plainly impossible for the example to even exist nor does it have any
reasonable relationship to the 'real world' situation.

> but goes to show
> that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan.

There is some merit to the conclusion but none in using that analogy to
arrive at it.

> MTBF
> "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).
>
> Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
> decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
> unit,

Warranty's are, in general, to cover infant mortality failures (which can
be affected by quality) that can happen in any device. Beyond that they are
often marketing tools (although not 'cost free') for an 'image'.

Manufacturers obviously don't want the warranty period to extend into end
of life, though.

> insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
> fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
> lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
> same true wattage.

The warranty period isn't 'lifespan' nor is it intended to be.

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:57:26 -0700, "Ed Light"
<nobody@nobody.there> wrote:

>
>"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote
>
>> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
>
>Is this nice?
>
>http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm

Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without
more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a
fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable
for a system using 200W+ of power.


>
>And this (not a psu) ?
>
>http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm


It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient
airflow is sufficient, but it does nothing to cool anything else,
there is still a need for a minimal amount of flow in the
chassis.

 

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"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote
> >http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm
>
> Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without
> more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a
> fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable
> for a system using 200W+ of power.

Yes, only 15A on the 12v. Not for a high-end gamer.

But other than that, it might do. I'm watching for a review on
http://www.silentpcreview.com/


> >http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm
>
>
> It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient
> airflow is sufficient,
They say you must have a case fan.
Imagine a 35w mobile XP 2200 running at 1.35 volts 2.1 mhz.


--
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MS Smiley :-\

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uce@ftc.gov
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kony wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:57:26 -0700, "Ed Light"
> <nobody@nobody.there> wrote:
>
>
>>"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote
>>
>>
>>>Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
>>
>>Is this nice?
>>
>>http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm
>
>
> Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without
> more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a
> fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable
> for a system using 200W+ of power.
>
>
>
>>And this (not a psu) ?
>>
>>http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm
>
>
>
> It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient
> airflow is sufficient, but it does nothing to cool anything else,
> there is still a need for a minimal amount of flow in the
> chassis.

I had a similar first impression but I'm still trying to 'divine', since
there's no explanation provided for it, the purpose of the heatsink bulge
intruding on the interior side. Makes me wonder if it isn't intended as a
heatpipe transfer of interior case heat to the external convective cooler
in an attempt to simulate the more traditional PSU fan's effect.
(Especially since they claim "all heat" goes to the outside, which would
make an 'internal' heatsink rather contradictory as a dissipater)

 

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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:30:18 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
<hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


>> Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
>> amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
>> flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
>> make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
>> implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
>> less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
>> quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
>> use fans on a lark.
>
>The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans.
>
>The mac cube was designed without fans.


Water cooler has no pump?
If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
meant to use fans.