Power supply EXPLOSION

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.

It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the airflow they expected?

Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's autorebuilding it in the background.

http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail


--
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120 answers Last reply
More about power supply explosion
  1. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message news:<opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue>...

    > Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
    >
    > It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks
    > cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer,
    > which didn't get the airflow they expected?
    >
    > Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about
    > 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had
    > lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the
    > PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds,
    > at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all
    > intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
    > drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted,
    > but it's autorebuilding it in the background.
    >
    > http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail

    PSUFAIL1.JPG seems to show an LM339, a voltage comparator and not a
    chip that normally handles high amounts of power. So I believe it
    failed due to excessive voltage, not heat. That's not to say that the
    high voltage wasn't caused by excessive heat somewhere else, and the
    burned capacitor in PSUFAIL3.JPG could indicate that the main
    transformeer got too hot and saturated, which can cause the current
    through its coupling capacitor to increase greatly. I'm not sure what
    PSUFAIL2.JPG is, but it looks like a transformer, and in PSUFAIL4.JPG,
    it's possible that heavily-burned resistor R7 is either a load
    resistor (some power supplies won't start without one, and excessive
    voltage can burn it out) or part of a snubber (filter to eliminate
    unwanted oscillations -- too much oscillation can burn it out).

    In the process of testing the water cooling, did you put a temperature
    probe on each of the power components? This can be risky because of
    the high voltage, but there are probes with metal exposed only at the
    tip, or for the more daring a dial thermometer (like a meat
    thermometer) can be used if it's covered with a few layers of
    heatshrink tubing. Transformer saturation is a big concern among
    power supply designers, and heat makes them saturate at lower power
    levels.
  2. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
    So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..

    That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to
    me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..

    Case Circulation is good to have anyhow when you have a few harddrives in
    the system..


    "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
    > Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
    >
    > It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
    what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
    airflow they expected?
    >
    > Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
    flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
    fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
    happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
    off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
    drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
    autorebuilding it in the background.
    >
    > http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
    >
    >
    > --
    > *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing
    http://www.petersparrots.com
    > 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    > 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    > Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid
    >
    > Polynesia -- memory loss in parrots.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.

    Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, rstlne <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    > WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
    > So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..
    >
    > That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to
    > me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..
    >
    > Case Circulation is good to have anyhow when you have a few harddrives in
    > the system..
    >
    >
    > "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
    >> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
    >>
    >> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
    > what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
    > airflow they expected?
    >>
    >> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
    > flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
    > fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
    > happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
    > off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
    > drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
    > autorebuilding it in the background.
    >>
    >> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing
    > http://www.petersparrots.com
    >> 93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    >> 1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    >> Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid
    >>
    >> Polynesia -- memory loss in parrots.
    >
    >
    >


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    How are new girl friends like a fresh roll of toilet paper?
    Sometimes it's kind of hard to get the first piece, but after that you can rip one off anytime.
  4. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:opsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
    > That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
    I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
    >
    > Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
    >


    Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
    of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    done).
  5. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, rstlne <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >
    > "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:opsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
    >> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
    > I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
    >>
    >> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
    >>
    >
    >
    > Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    > Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
    > of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    > done).

    NB?

    I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    "Politicians are interested in people. Not that this is always a virtue. Fleas are interested in dogs."
  6. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:opsbhu1umfaiowgp@blue...
    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, rstlne <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    > > news:opsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
    > >> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it,
    but
    > > I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
    > >>
    > >> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
    > >>
    > >
    > >
    > > Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    > > Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a
    couple
    > > of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    > > done).
    >
    > NB?
    >
    > I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed
    cooling.
    >

    Ahhhh
    yea I see what you did now ;)
    ...
    Yea you probably needed a verry small airflow.. But nearly all of the heat
    comes from those 5/6 (or 8/9 on some) amps that are connected to the 2
    (sometimes 3) sinks..

    I find it verry strange myself, Are you sure that there wasnt any leaking or
    that even there wasnt possilbly metal shavings inside the unit after
    installing the blocks?
  7. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
    > Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
    >
    > It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
    what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
    airflow they expected?
    >
    > Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
    flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
    fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
    happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
    off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
    drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
    autorebuilding it in the background.
    >
    > http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
    >
    Watercooling in a power supply...
    You must be crazy, my friend !!! :) :) :) And very lucky, having so
    little damage.
    For the same price, you could have your motherboard, CPU, RAM, graphic card
    and even disks completely destroyed.
    On top, if your PSU is powerful enough for your hardware configuration,
    there is absolutely no need for extra cooling in a normal case with normal
    air flow.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:16:50 GMT, ElJerid <s.vanderhaeghen.nospam@pandora.be> wrote:

    >
    > "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue...
    >> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
    >>
    >> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks cool, but
    > what of the poor little diodes and a transformer, which didn't get the
    > airflow they expected?
    >>
    >> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about 15 bangs,
    > flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had lit an entire box of
    > fireworks under the desk. Strangely the PC continued to run while this
    > happened (for about 10 seconds, at which point the PSU gave up and it went
    > off. Fuses all intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
    > drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted, but it's
    > autorebuilding it in the background.
    >>
    >> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
    >>
    > Watercooling in a power supply...
    > You must be crazy, my friend !!! :) :) :) And very lucky, having so
    > little damage.
    > For the same price, you could have your motherboard, CPU, RAM, graphic card
    > and even disks completely destroyed.

    Well one disk in my mirror stripe became corrupt, but it's autorebuilding it in the background.

    > On top, if your PSU is powerful enough for your hardware configuration,
    > there is absolutely no need for extra cooling in a normal case with normal
    > air flow.

    What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans!


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
  9. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On 21 Jul 2004 13:21:24 -0700, do_not_spam_me <do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com> wrote:

    > "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message news:<opsbhnptolaiowgp@blue>...
    >
    >> Ok, maybe watercooling the power supply was not a good idea.
    >>
    >> It certainly kept the power transistors with the big heatsinks
    >> cool, but what of the poor little diodes and a transformer,
    >> which didn't get the airflow they expected?
    >>
    >> Been working fine for a few weeks, then suddenly..... about
    >> 15 bangs, flashes, sparks etc flew out of it, as though I had
    >> lit an entire box of fireworks under the desk. Strangely the
    >> PC continued to run while this happened (for about 10 seconds,
    >> at which point the PSU gave up and it went off. Fuses all
    >> intact! Replaced the PSU, and the PC booted ok! Just one
    >> drive of the mirror/stripe appeared to be blank/corrupted,
    >> but it's autorebuilding it in the background.
    >>
    >> http://80.229.155.158/temp/psufail
    >
    > PSUFAIL1.JPG seems to show an LM339, a voltage comparator and not a
    > chip that normally handles high amounts of power. So I believe it
    > failed due to excessive voltage, not heat. That's not to say that the
    > high voltage wasn't caused by excessive heat somewhere else, and the
    > burned capacitor in PSUFAIL3.JPG could indicate that the main
    > transformeer got too hot and saturated, which can cause the current
    > through its coupling capacitor to increase greatly. I'm not sure what
    > PSUFAIL2.JPG is, but it looks like a transformer, and in PSUFAIL4.JPG,
    > it's possible that heavily-burned resistor R7 is either a load
    > resistor (some power supplies won't start without one, and excessive
    > voltage can burn it out) or part of a snubber (filter to eliminate
    > unwanted oscillations -- too much oscillation can burn it out).
    >
    > In the process of testing the water cooling, did you put a temperature
    > probe on each of the power components? This can be risky because of
    > the high voltage, but there are probes with metal exposed only at the
    > tip, or for the more daring a dial thermometer (like a meat
    > thermometer) can be used if it's covered with a few layers of
    > heatshrink tubing. Transformer saturation is a big concern among
    > power supply designers, and heat makes them saturate at lower power
    > levels.

    I checked the heatsink temperatures with my finger. Didn't think anything else would need it.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    An archaeologist is the best husband a woman can have. The older she gets the more interested in her he is.
  10. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
    >So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..


    Completely untrue.
    Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool.
    "Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing
    removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect
    assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow.

    Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme
    environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly
    same area to cool motherboard power regulators.

    Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's
    connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could
    do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the
    socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is
    far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any
    electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd
    be needed there, but there are multiple reasons.


    >
    >That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks to
    >me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..

    Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less
    airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees
    cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing
    that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means
    lower volume is needed for same temp drop.
  11. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >
    >"Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    >news:opsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
    >> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
    >I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
    >>
    >> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
    >>
    >
    >
    >Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    >Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
    >of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    >done).
    >

    Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
  12. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote

    > Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.

    Is this nice?

    http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm

    And this (not a psu) ?

    http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm


    --
    Ed Light

    Smiley :-/
    MS Smiley :-\

    Send spam to the FTC at
    uce@ftc.gov
    Thanks, robots.
  13. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:38:08 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


    >> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    >> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
    >> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    >> done).
    >
    >NB?
    >
    >I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling.

    Yes, the best solution would've been to simply leave the power
    supply alone and install a lower flow fan, with rear grill
    removed, then mod the REST of the system case to provide positive
    pressurization that forces more air though the power supply.

    Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
    supply than just keeping the regulators cool.
  14. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:57 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


    >What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans!

    Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
    amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
    flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
    make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
    implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
    less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
    quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
    use fans on a lark.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:06:24 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:30:16 GMT, "rstlne"
    > <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Peter Hucker" <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
    >> news:opsbhqrth3aiowgp@blue...
    >>> That's one hell of a failure. I thought I was maybe overloading it, but
    >> I'm using 200W peak, and it was a 300W supply.
    >>>
    >>> Anyway I've sourced a fanless one for £120....
    >>>
    >>
    >>
    >> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    >> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
    >> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    >> done).
    >>
    >
    > Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    > The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    > actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    > will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    > fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    > chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    > system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    > unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    > components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.

    Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-)

    And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    If god had meant us to travel economy class, he would have made us narrower.
  16. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:10:30 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:38:08 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>> Yea, I have seen some nice new fanless ones out there in the market..
    >>> Tho to be honest I woulda probably been more tempted to just mount a couple
    >>> of NB coolers on the heatsinks inside the PSU itself (sure it could be
    >>> done).
    >>
    >> NB?
    >>
    >> I DID mount coolers on the heatsinks. But I think more than that needed cooling.
    >
    > Yes, the best solution would've been to simply leave the power
    > supply alone and install a lower flow fan, with rear grill
    > removed, then mod the REST of the system case to provide positive
    > pressurization that forces more air though the power supply.
    >
    > Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
    > supply than just keeping the regulators cool.

    The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    Save the whales. Collect the whole set.
  17. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:14:53 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:57 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> What do you mean no need for extra cooling? I was trying to use no fans!
    >
    > Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
    > amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
    > flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
    > make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
    > implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
    > less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
    > quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
    > use fans on a lark.

    The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans.

    The mac cube was designed without fans.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
  18. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


    >> Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
    >> supply than just keeping the regulators cool.
    >
    >The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.

    What is irritating about a fan you can't hear?

    Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan
    cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case
    scenarios with water pumps.

    I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I
    have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that
    have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that.
    Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card
    needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise
    reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained.
    First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock
    fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA.

    Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked,
    water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates
    as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst), then
    either giant passive radiator is used or fan is still needed on
    radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow.
    As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you
    have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there
    is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but
    temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan
    degradation (capacitors).
  19. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:

    >> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    >> The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    >> actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    >> will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    >> fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    >> chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    >> system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    >> unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    >> components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
    >
    >Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-)
    >
    >And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.

    But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the
    exemption of liability to system component damage.

    Consider this example:

    I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
    I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
    Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    but so are many generic psu.
    Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
    that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
    "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).

    Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    same true wattage.
  20. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    kony wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    >>>The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    >>>actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    >>>will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    >>>fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    >>>chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    >>>system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    >>>unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    >>>components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
    >>
    >>Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-)
    >>
    >>And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.
    >
    >
    > But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the
    > exemption of liability to system component damage.

    He may be, but then you seem to be presuming things not in evidence.

    >
    > Consider this example:
    >
    > I sell you a 9V battery for $150.

    Good luck. LOL

    > I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.

    Second big mistake.

    I mean, a ridiculous price on a device, and a warranty, that is clearly
    unfit for the intended purpose: you're out of business already, even before
    the lawyers lined up to sue.

    > Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    > but so are many generic psu.

    Your device being 'unfit' is prima facia. Your claim that the others are is
    merely opinion based on lord knows what.

    > Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    > (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    > month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    > mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    > retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    > solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme

    Unfortunately, it is so absurd as to be of no illustrative value because it
    is plainly impossible for the example to even exist nor does it have any
    reasonable relationship to the 'real world' situation.

    > but goes to show
    > that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan.

    There is some merit to the conclusion but none in using that analogy to
    arrive at it.

    > MTBF
    > "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).
    >
    > Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    > decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    > unit,

    Warranty's are, in general, to cover infant mortality failures (which can
    be affected by quality) that can happen in any device. Beyond that they are
    often marketing tools (although not 'cost free') for an 'image'.

    Manufacturers obviously don't want the warranty period to extend into end
    of life, though.

    > insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    > fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    > lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    > same true wattage.

    The warranty period isn't 'lifespan' nor is it intended to be.
  21. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:57:26 -0700, "Ed Light"
    <nobody@nobody.there> wrote:

    >
    >"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote
    >
    >> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    >
    >Is this nice?
    >
    >http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm

    Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without
    more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a
    fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable
    for a system using 200W+ of power.


    >
    >And this (not a psu) ?
    >
    >http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm


    It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient
    airflow is sufficient, but it does nothing to cool anything else,
    there is still a need for a minimal amount of flow in the
    chassis.
  22. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote
    > >http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm
    >
    > Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without
    > more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a
    > fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable
    > for a system using 200W+ of power.

    Yes, only 15A on the 12v. Not for a high-end gamer.

    But other than that, it might do. I'm watching for a review on
    http://www.silentpcreview.com/


    > >http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm
    >
    >
    > It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient
    > airflow is sufficient,
    They say you must have a case fan.
    Imagine a 35w mobile XP 2200 running at 1.35 volts 2.1 mhz.


    --
    Ed Light

    Smiley :-/
    MS Smiley :-\

    Send spam to the FTC at
    uce@ftc.gov
    Thanks, robots.
  23. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    kony wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:57:26 -0700, "Ed Light"
    > <nobody@nobody.there> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>"kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote
    >>
    >>
    >>>Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    >>
    >>Is this nice?
    >>
    >>http://thermaltake.com/purepower/w0050fanlesspfc/w0050fanlesspfc.htm
    >
    >
    > Pretty pictures but I'll refrain from making assumptions without
    > more detail of it's design. I do notice that it (PSU) has a
    > fairly low 5V amperage rating, do not thing it would be suitable
    > for a system using 200W+ of power.
    >
    >
    >
    >>And this (not a psu) ?
    >>
    >>http://thermaltake.com/coolers/cl-p0019Fanless103/cl-p0019fanless103.htm
    >
    >
    >
    > It could certainly be an effective cooler provided ambient
    > airflow is sufficient, but it does nothing to cool anything else,
    > there is still a need for a minimal amount of flow in the
    > chassis.

    I had a similar first impression but I'm still trying to 'divine', since
    there's no explanation provided for it, the purpose of the heatsink bulge
    intruding on the interior side. Makes me wonder if it isn't intended as a
    heatpipe transfer of interior case heat to the external convective cooler
    in an attempt to simulate the more traditional PSU fan's effect.
    (Especially since they claim "all heat" goes to the outside, which would
    make an 'internal' heatsink rather contradictory as a dissipater)
  24. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:30:18 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


    >> Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
    >> amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
    >> flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
    >> make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
    >> implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
    >> less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
    >> quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
    >> use fans on a lark.
    >
    >The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans.
    >
    >The mac cube was designed without fans.


    Water cooler has no pump?
    If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
    inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.

    MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    meant to use fans.
  25. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:48:45 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:27:47 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >>> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    >>> The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    >>> actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    >>> will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    >>> fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    >>> chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    >>> system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    >>> unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    >>> components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
    >>
    >> Some I saw said 3 year warranty :-)
    >>
    >> And the thermaltake (I think) ones have a thing out the back.
    >
    > But you're ignoring the cost difference and possibly the
    > exemption of liability to system component damage.
    >
    > Consider this example:
    >
    > I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
    > I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
    > Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    > but so are many generic psu.
    > Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    > (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    > month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    > mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    > retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    > solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
    > that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
    > "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).

    Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.

    > Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    > decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    > unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    > fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    > lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    > same true wattage.

    I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    A high I.Q is like a Jeep. You still get stuck, just further from help.
  26. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:55:34 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:30:18 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>> Water cooling does not eliminate the need for fans, only reduces
    >>> amount of flow needed. Noise of water cooler eclipses that fan
    >>> flow noise difference to the extent that water cooling does not
    >>> make a system quieter except if compared to a very poorly
    >>> implemented air-cooling design. In other words, with same or
    >>> less time and less expense and risk the air-cooled solution is
    >>> quieter, more dependable, cheaper, safer. Whole world doesn't
    >>> use fans on a lark.
    >>
    >> The water cooler is completely silent. And no I don't need fans.
    >>
    >> The mac cube was designed without fans.
    >
    >
    > Water cooler has no pump?
    > If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    > completely silent.

    As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!

    > Fans can also be inaudible,

    Never ever found one!

    > and while
    > inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    > the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >
    > MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    > meant to use fans.

    So what?


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    Fellows, it's often easier to just give in to your wife. I mean, what's your word against thousands of hers?
  27. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:33:29 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:

    >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:37:51 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    >> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>> Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
    >>>> supply than just keeping the regulators cool.
    >>>
    >>> The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.
    >>
    >> What is irritating about a fan you can't hear?
    >
    >There is no such thing.


    You mean you haven't hear one... which is the whole point.
    Plenty of people do it, there are even articles and websites
    devoted to it. Generally where many people fail is to simply
    buy a "low" RPM fan instead of using fan controller and using
    MORE fans so that each only needs be slightly higher RPM than
    minimal value to spin up at all, or they use resistors which
    limit current, resulting in higher voltage during operation,
    rather than other methods. It is not very difficult to have a
    hard drive as the only audible part in a system, provided this
    was the plan all along and suitable case was chosen or modified
    towards this end.

    >
    >> Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan
    >> cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case
    >> scenarios with water pumps.
    >>
    >> I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I
    >> have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that
    >> have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that.
    >> Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card
    >> needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise
    >> reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained.
    >> First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock
    >> fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA.
    >
    >Mine have Zalman passive heatsinks - the ones with the huge copper fins.

    Fancy but they decrease lifespan of video card for same reason as
    with power supply, that not only the highest heat part(s) needs
    airflow. Reducing CPU/GPU/Chipset temps is fine for short-term
    stability but the long-term stress takes it's toll.

    >
    >> Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked,
    >> water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates
    >> as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst),
    >
    >Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is absorbed.

    .... and your system failed, didn't it?
    So what if other parts haven't failed YET?
    There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
    system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
    block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
    I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
    single part has failed.

    >
    >> then
    >> either giant passive radiator is used
    >
    >No problem, hiden away behind my desk in an otherwise unusable space.

    Excactly where you don't want to put it since ambient airflow is
    more important for a passive radiator.


    >
    >> or fan is still needed on radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow.
    >
    >Nah, that's happy with convection.

    You would like to think so but all the evidence is to the
    contrary.


    >
    >> As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you
    >> have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there
    >> is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but
    >> temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan
    >> degradation (capacitors).
    >
    >The only things that are hot are the 2 CPUs (watercooled), the northbridge (watercooled), the memory (large passive heatsink), and the graphics cards (large passive heatsinks).

    You still don't get it. The entire system has a higher ambient
    temp due to your (lack of) airflow. It is not only the GPU,
    memory, CPU, and northbridge that need cooling. Other parts
    don't need nearly as much, but the need is still there when
    they're all enclosed in a fanless system.
  28. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


    >> I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
    >> I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
    >> Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    >> but so are many generic psu.
    >> Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    >> (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    >> month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    >> mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    >> retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    >> solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
    >> that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
    >> "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).
    >
    >Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.

    That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
    You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
    till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
    replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
    to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.

    >
    >> Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    >> decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    >> unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    >> fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    >> lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    >> same true wattage.
    >
    >I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!

    .... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
    parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
    environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
    processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
    10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
    someone else might.
  29. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:42:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:


    >> Water cooler has no pump?
    >> If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    >> completely silent.
    >
    >As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!

    Fans can be too.

    >
    >> Fans can also be inaudible,
    >
    >Never ever found one!

    Of course not, since you jumped to conclusions instead of
    pursuing it. People do it all the time, there are reviews and
    recommendations all over the web, try a Google search.

    >
    >> and while
    >> inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    >> the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >>
    >> MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    >> meant to use fans.
    >
    >So what?

    So you wanted to use it as an example, when the whole reason it's
    fanless is that they designed it from ground up to be that way.
    Note that the had to reengineer the whole thing and yet they
    didn't reuse that work in ALL their other designs, so apparently
    it's not such a universal solution that it should be used even on
    systems they spec, let alone one that starts out designed for
    active cooling but merely a water block strapped onto 4
    components.

    If you like your failed system, great.
    Many people have silent fan-cooled systems, whether you accept
    this or not.
  30. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:11:09 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:33:29 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:37:51 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    >>> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>> Your conclusion was correct that there's more to cooling a power
    >>>>> supply than just keeping the regulators cool.
    >>>>
    >>>> The rest of the system does not have fans! And even a low speed one in the PSU would be irritating.
    >>>
    >>> What is irritating about a fan you can't hear?
    >>
    >> There is no such thing.
    >
    >
    > You mean you haven't hear one... which is the whole point.
    > Plenty of people do it, there are even articles and websites
    > devoted to it. Generally where many people fail is to simply
    > buy a "low" RPM fan instead of using fan controller and using
    > MORE fans so that each only needs be slightly higher RPM than
    > minimal value to spin up at all,

    I have actually tried many fans including several called silent, and I use a controller to slow them right down to the slowest that they can start at. But not one is inaudible.

    > or they use resistors which
    > limit current, resulting in higher voltage during operation,
    > rather than other methods. It is not very difficult to have a
    > hard drive as the only audible part in a system, provided this
    > was the plan all along and suitable case was chosen or modified
    > towards this end.

    Getting there!

    >>> Comparing water cooling to worst-possible scenarios for fan
    >>> cooling is pointless, we could as easily compare to worst-case
    >>> scenarios with water pumps.
    >>>
    >>> I did not claim you should use a high RPM fan. Personally, I
    >>> have no systems here nor that i've sold in past few years that
    >>> have even a single fan over 3000RPM and usually quite below that.
    >>> Once exception being video card fans, IF the warranty on the card
    >>> needs preserved, if that is more important to owner than noise
    >>> reduction of card then stock cooling solution must be retained.
    >>> First thing i do on cards I buy for my own use is replace stock
    >>> fan'sink after confirming card works properly, not defective/DOA.
    >>
    >> Mine have Zalman passive heatsinks - the ones with the huge copper fins.
    >
    > Fancy but they decrease lifespan of video card for same reason as
    > with power supply, that not only the highest heat part(s) needs
    > airflow. Reducing CPU/GPU/Chipset temps is fine for short-term
    > stability but the long-term stress takes it's toll.

    Some of them came with memory sinks too, but as the memory on these cards (Radeon 9200s) is nowhere near hot, I didn't bother getting those.

    >>> Bottom line is that unless system is very _highly_ overclocked,
    >>> water cooling is the noiser way to cool a system. Pump creates
    >>> as much noise as very low RPM fan (like a panaflo or papst),
    >>
    >> Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is absorbed.
    >
    > ... and your system failed, didn't it?

    Only the PSU.

    > So what if other parts haven't failed YET?

    Nowt else is hot. I checked. However I did not feel like checking a PSU insides with my finger!

    > There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
    > system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
    > block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
    > I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
    > single part has failed.

    Not even a fan? Big cause of problems where I worked - fan fails, something overheats.

    >>> then
    >>> either giant passive radiator is used
    >>
    >> No problem, hiden away behind my desk in an otherwise unusable space.
    >
    > Excactly where you don't want to put it since ambient airflow is
    > more important for a passive radiator.

    It's not that hidden away, my desk is away from the wall a small amount as the monitor CRTs stick off the edge. And the back plinth of the desk (the "modesty" bit I think they call it) is not at the far back of the desk, so there is a lot of air round the radiator. It's no hotter there than when I had it out in the middle of the room testing.

    >>> or fan is still needed on radiator, plus motherboard power regulation still needs airflow.
    >>
    >> Nah, that's happy with convection.
    >
    > You would like to think so but all the evidence is to the
    > contrary.

    The evidence is in my finger.

    >>> As incredible as it may seem, with a good 'normal' heatsink you
    >>> have same need for low RPM fan near that heatsink whether there
    >>> is a water block on CPU or not. You can operate without fan but
    >>> temps go up, in a region with a very clear temp vs lifespan
    >>> degradation (capacitors).
    >>
    >> The only things that are hot are the 2 CPUs (watercooled), the northbridge (watercooled), the memory (large passive heatsink), and the graphics cards (large passive heatsinks).
    >
    > You still don't get it. The entire system has a higher ambient
    > temp due to your (lack of) airflow. It is not only the GPU,
    > memory, CPU, and northbridge that need cooling. Other parts
    > don't need nearly as much, but the need is still there when
    > they're all enclosed in a fanless system.

    They're not enclosed. The tower case is in it's side (better water flow) and has many vents on the side (now top) panel. Convection - the original cooling designed by mother nature!


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
  31. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:18:40 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>> I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
    >>> I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
    >>> Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    >>> but so are many generic psu.
    >>> Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    >>> (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    >>> month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    >>> mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    >>> retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    >>> solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
    >>> that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
    >>> "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).
    >>
    >> Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.
    >
    > That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
    > You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
    > till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
    > replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
    > to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.

    So I use a noisy cheap one while I wait.

    >>> Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    >>> decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    >>> unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    >>> fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    >>> lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    >>> same true wattage.
    >>
    >> I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!
    >
    > ... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
    > parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
    > environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
    > processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
    > 10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
    > someone else might.

    I don't really like wasting things, but they are selling it, so I am assuming that Thermaltake et al are not charletons. Perhaps I shall forward this conversation to them and see what they think of you.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    begin

    If you have Outhouse Distress, this won't work.
  32. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:24:34 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:42:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>> Water cooler has no pump?
    >>> If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    >>> completely silent.
    >>
    >> As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!
    >
    > Fans can be too.

    I've yet to find one. Which particular model did you use, and using what model of fan controller?

    >>> Fans can also be inaudible,
    >>
    >> Never ever found one!
    >
    > Of course not, since you jumped to conclusions instead of
    > pursuing it. People do it all the time, there are reviews and
    > recommendations all over the web, try a Google search.

    I have. It's a maze. There are articles everywhere, and what many call silent are not.

    >>> and while
    >>> inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    >>> the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >>>
    >>> MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    >>> meant to use fans.
    >>
    >> So what?
    >
    > So you wanted to use it as an example, when the whole reason it's
    > fanless is that they designed it from ground up to be that way.
    > Note that the had to reengineer the whole thing

    Reengineering is different from moifying in what way?

    > and yet they didn't reuse that work in ALL their other designs, so apparently
    > it's not such a universal solution that it should be used even on
    > systems they spec, let alone one that starts out designed for
    > active cooling but merely a water block strapped onto 4
    > components.

    Apple are reknowned for changing design for the sake of it, to appeal to fashion victims instead of technically minded people.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    "One dies in Istanbul suicide attack"
  33. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    > >Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of
    the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is
    absorbed.
    >
    > ... and your system failed, didn't it?
    > So what if other parts haven't failed YET?
    > There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
    > system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
    > block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
    > I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
    > single part has failed.
    >

    His Cooling didnt fail, His PSU fail'd..
    This is the most common failure that there is in HomePC's..
    in fact I would say that when everything is done correctly in electronics
    that many times a SMPS is probably the most common failure of anything..

    I see your point, and I see his point also..
    He SHOULD be able to run a fanless system to be honest..
    The Motherboard & Psu shouldnt need fans past the obvious spots..
    Caps, Transformers, and voltage comparitors shouldnt need air going over
    them..

    There are passive motherboards out there..
    My wireless router doesnt have fans in it, nor does any of my digital
    receivers, or my home dvd player.

    The argument that a system cant run fanless is not correct..
  34. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    > Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    > The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    > actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    > will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    > fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    > chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    > system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    > unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    > components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
    >

    Sorry, but there are nice new fanless psu's out..
    The problem is they dont have a fan, so they cant be ATX spec supplys (cause
    the atx specifications require that there is a fan in the system)..
    yes there are nice new fanless psu's out.. you just need to open your eyes.
  35. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    > >Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years.
    Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after
    repeated failure.
    >
    > That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
    > You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
    > till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
    > replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
    > to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.
    >

    You seem to be really confusing things here..
    I am starting to think your a troll.. but If not then I say consider this..

    The PSU company wants to make money..
    If they have to replace 100% of their sold stock then that means they'll
    probably not be in profit..
    So in other words.. This stuff will work for most people under most
    conditions..
    You cant get 600w fanless PSU's because they just cant manage it..
    You can get 200/300/350 Out the wazoo because they can manage it.. They are
    not going to make kit that HAS to be replaced..
    It's like making a car that's so poor in quality that the whole car will
    need to be replaced.. It's not something the mfgr's do.
  36. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    "kony" <spam@spam.com> wrote in message
    news:dnptf0pjm8ovg9bu3ptjubtoh27avf5668@4ax.com...
    > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:32:50 GMT, "rstlne"
    > <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:
    >
    > >WaterCooling keeps the CPU and what ever else it's connected to cool..
    > >So you dont have 45/50c air feeing the bottom of the heatsink..
    >
    >
    > Completely untrue.
    > Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool.
    > "Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing
    > removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect
    > assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow.
    >
    > Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme
    > environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly
    > same area to cool motherboard power regulators.

    There are no passive heatsinks attach'd.. Some mobo mfgrs are using them
    now..
    Airflow is somewhat useless unless there are some heatsinks to help get the
    heat off of the flat surface so it can be moved..
    Taking this into consideration then you could add heatsinks to all of the
    regulators on board and then your "problem" is fixed..


    > Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's
    > connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could
    > do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the
    > socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is
    > far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any
    > electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd
    > be needed there, but there are multiple reasons.


    No.. U dont seem to understand this..
    Your house has a heater, It warms the air around the heater, that's what
    makes the house warm..
    If you pumped the heat from your heater outside then your saying it will
    still keep your house warm?


    > >
    > >That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks
    to
    > >me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..
    >
    > Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less
    > airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees
    > cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing
    > that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means
    > lower volume is needed for same temp drop.

    What bits other than the amps and possibly regulator on a PSU needs
    cooling?..
  37. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    >
    > Water cooler has no pump?
    > If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    > completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
    > inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    > the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >
    > MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    > meant to use fans.

    Traditional home PC's were not made with "fans" in mind..
    Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
    specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..
  38. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    rstlne wrote:

    >>Water cooler has no pump?
    >>If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    >>completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
    >>inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    >>the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >>
    >>MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    >>meant to use fans.
    >
    >
    > Traditional home PC's were not made with "fans" in mind..

    Well, yes they were, at least from ATX on (I just haven't rechecked AT).
    Just as the thermal design is a significant part of the BTX form factor.

    > Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
    > specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..

    Wrong place to look. They conform to the ATX form factor so there is no
    need for them to repeat it, nor is that part 'their job'.
  39. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:01 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >> >Rubbish. I can only hear my water pump if I place my ear on the side of
    >the radiator. The pump is underwater, inside the radiator, all sound is
    >absorbed.
    >>
    >> ... and your system failed, didn't it?
    >> So what if other parts haven't failed YET?
    >> There is a clear relationship between heat and lifespan, and your
    >> system CANNOT have most of not all components not under a water
    >> block, running as cool as when an inaudible fan in employed.
    >> I have systems with inaudible fans still running fine, not a
    >> single part has failed.
    >>
    >
    >His Cooling didnt fail, His PSU fail'd..

    Did he not suggest it failed because it overheated?
    What would you call that if not a failure to cool it?

    >This is the most common failure that there is in HomePC's..
    >in fact I would say that when everything is done correctly in electronics
    >that many times a SMPS is probably the most common failure of anything..

    "When everything is done correctly" is a pretty vague statement,
    but given that generality, a name-brand PSU of ample wattage and
    proper surge protection device would be used. In such setups the
    average lifespan of the SMPS is higher than the 3 years reported
    (IIRC).

    >I see your point, and I see his point also..
    >He SHOULD be able to run a fanless system to be honest..

    Fanless is possible, if designed to be so.
    Taking a system meant for fan-based cooling and trying to run
    without the fans is asking for trouble unless ALL parts that
    create excess heat are accordingly cooled to levels conducive to
    desired lifespan. Components should outlast the user's desire to
    use them... which wasn't the case here.

    It's certainly true that someone could work backwards, start out
    with a system optimized for fanned cooling and remake it into a
    passively (fanless) cooled system, but not by just putting
    waterblocks on the 4 hottest components/chips.


    >The Motherboard & Psu shouldnt need fans past the obvious spots..
    >Caps, Transformers, and voltage comparitors shouldnt need air going over
    >them..

    Completely untrue.
    They are engineered in a cost-effective manner with expectation
    that airflow is generated, and RATED according to this. If
    motherboard is meant to power 20A CPU, it will have to be derated
    if ran hot. Same with SMPS, take a look at some designs giving
    the engineering specs, not just the glossy pics meant for PC
    end-users.


    >There are passive motherboards out there..

    They may not have fan on the northbridge, but that doesn't mean
    they need no airflow. Some, particularly those for Via CPU, have
    such low heat that flow rate is not nearly as important, the
    sinking of the copper on the board can remove heat at a certain
    rate, it's just a matter of how much heat there is to begin with.


    >My wireless router doesnt have fans in it, nor does any of my digital
    >receivers, or my home dvd player.

    Have you looked at the massive heatsink in a receiver?
    Actually some receivers do have fans.
    Routers and DVD players use very little power relative to a
    modern PC. Even so there are routers with fans, and many people
    might argue (perhaps correctly) that such devices could have
    longer lifespans if they did have a fan.


    >
    >The argument that a system cant run fanless is not correct..
    >

    Likewise the argument that a system can run fanless is not
    accurate, correct. Will it boot and run for a while? Sure, you
    can run a car on only a quart of oil for a while too, but is it
    wise?

    Specifics matter... amount of heat, heat density, removal rate,
    needed lifespan. I've seen far more than my share of
    motherboards that failed due to running hot for a couple years,
    not in my systems but pulled out of someone else's. The simple
    fact is that temp does effect component lifespan in a direct way,
    there are plenty of spec sheets for myriad components showing
    temp vs lifespan relationships as well as temp vs airflow rate.
  40. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:34:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:

    >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:18:40 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    >> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>> I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
    >>>> I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
    >>>> Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    >>>> but so are many generic psu.
    >>>> Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    >>>> (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    >>>> month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    >>>> mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    >>>> retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    >>>> solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
    >>>> that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
    >>>> "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).
    >>>
    >>> Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.
    >>
    >> That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
    >> You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
    >> till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
    >> replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
    >> to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.
    >
    >So I use a noisy cheap one while I wait.
    >
    >>>> Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    >>>> decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    >>>> unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    >>>> fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    >>>> lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    >>>> same true wattage.
    >>>
    >>> I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!
    >>
    >> ... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
    >> parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
    >> environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
    >> processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
    >> 10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
    >> someone else might.
    >
    >I don't really like wasting things, but they are selling it, so I am assuming that Thermaltake et al are not charletons. Perhaps I shall forward this conversation to them and see what they think of you.

    Go ahead, I'd like more details of how they did it. Keep in mind
    that I did not speculate on their specific implementation beyond
    it's limited amperage rating, rather your implementation which
    was a hack job.

    While you're out looking for support, drop in to some web forums
    and ask if they think it's a good idea to run a fanless system
    that isn't optimized specifically for this, including parts
    selection.

    While you're out, drop into the document section of your CPU
    manufacturer's website and see what they have to say about
    chassis cooling. Ask your motherboard manufacturer too. You
    might even luck out and find they claim it's ok, since the part
    may last till the end of a warranty period, even though the
    lifespan may be reduced by 50% or more.

    You seem to have no grasp of the situation... your PSU is dead
    because of your effort and yet you STILL can't learn from the
    mistake. There ARE cases designed to passively cool, but it
    takes a bit more than just traditional water-cooling, which is
    meant to suppliment case cooling, not replace it.
  41. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    Try the forum at
    http://silentpcreview.com/


    --
    Ed Light

    Smiley :-/
    MS Smiley :-\

    Send spam to the FTC at
    uce@ftc.gov
    Thanks, robots.
  42. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:03:47 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >> Nope, there are ZERO nice new fanless ones.
    >> The highest quality, best specs and longest lasting PSU are all
    >> actively cooled. Effective passive cooling for a modern system
    >> will require such large passive 'sinks that it won't come near
    >> fitting into a PS/2 size allocation per the PSU casing or system
    >> chassis. Best attempt is when huge fins stick out the back of
    >> system, but even then there is no chance PSU will last as long
    >> unless quite specifically made with different spec and type
    >> components inside, which none have been due to greater cost.
    >>
    >
    >Sorry, but there are nice new fanless psu's out..

    Sounds like an assumption to me.
    "New" PSU _CANNOT_ be established as decent until the design is
    evaluated and tested over a period of time. It can have neon,
    sing you to sleep and wear bells on it's toes and that makes no
    difference if the component temp isn't kept at low enough level.
    Perhaps some do this, but where is the data? PSU manufacturers
    have long since learned that a "pretty" PSU will sell even if
    user has no ability to evaluate it in it's function as a PSU
    instead of a case ornament.

    Some day after more data is accumulated it may be correct to call
    some models "good", but "new" and "good" can't coincide when
    talking about an alternate cooling strategy that inevitably
    increases internal temp of the unit, without units out in the
    wild for years so we can see how they fare.

    >The problem is they dont have a fan, so they cant be ATX spec supplys (cause
    >the atx specifications require that there is a fan in the system)..
    >yes there are nice new fanless psu's out.. you just need to open your eyes.

    Perhaps you should open yours as well, then read some component
    spec sheets, measure temps resulting from fanless operation. It
    is possible some passive psu are good, relatively speaking, but
    you have no way to know that, and insufficient evidence has been
    presented to even assume so.
  43. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:54 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:


    >>
    >> Completely untrue.
    >> Water cooling keeps ONLY the part under the water block cool.
    >> "Almost" every other part of the system (which has heat needing
    >> removed) will run hotter because there is the incorrect
    >> assumption that water cooling reduces need for aux airflow.
    >>
    >> Even water cooling a CPU is pointless except very extreme
    >> environments or for max o'c. You still need a fan in roughly
    >> same area to cool motherboard power regulators.
    >
    >There are no passive heatsinks attach'd.. Some mobo mfgrs are using them
    >now..
    >Airflow is somewhat useless unless there are some heatsinks to help get the
    >heat off of the flat surface so it can be moved..
    >Taking this into consideration then you could add heatsinks to all of the
    >regulators on board and then your "problem" is fixed..

    Actually, regulators are 'sunk to the copper under them, this
    copper being cooled much faster with actively induced airflow.
    Adding a heatsink on top is more effective in preventing damage
    to the epoxy casing than overal cooling, as the most direct heat
    path is towards the integral metal tab on the back.

    >
    >
    >> Water cooling CPU will not reduce temp of "what ever else it's
    >> connected to" by any significant amount. The only way it could
    >> do so would be by reducing heat 'sunk though the CPU pins to the
    >> socket, but any other (relatively) temp-sensitive component is
    >> far removed from that heat path. For example, you won't find any
    >> electrolytic capacitors inside a socket well... not that they'd
    >> be needed there, but there are multiple reasons.
    >
    >
    >No.. U dont seem to understand this..

    Actually I do, but go ahead and provide an unrelated example.

    >Your house has a heater, It warms the air around the heater, that's what
    >makes the house warm..
    >If you pumped the heat from your heater outside then your saying it will
    >still keep your house warm?

    This is where you lack understanding.
    The appropriate analogy would be having several heaters, some
    larger than others, and only pumping out the heat created by the
    larger heaters, not the smaller ones, and not having a fan to
    circulate that heat so it builds up at the source.


    >> >That means that the PSU shouldnt have required tons of airflow.. It looks
    >to
    >> >me like the psu just fail'd (short in transformer)..
    >>
    >> Nope, it is true that PSU might've required "slightly" less
    >> airflow but only because it's incoming air was a few degrees
    >> cooler, since CPU heat was removed in a path other than drawing
    >> that heat(ed air) up though PSU. Lower temp air though PSU means
    >> lower volume is needed for same temp drop.
    >
    >What bits other than the amps and possibly regulator on a PSU needs
    >cooling?..

    amps?

    Take your pick. Resistors, caps, inductors, transformer
    It seems you too easily ignore lower density heat. A 75W CPU has
    high density, but if you spread it out over an area the size of
    an incandescent light bulb, without active cooling, is the
    surface of a 75W bulb going to be cool? Suppose you spread out
    the heat even more, why is that effective at reducing temp in an
    isolated object? Because there is a heat transmission medium,
    that medium being airflow. Radiation of heat works fine in an
    open area, up to a point, but a computer case is not an open
    area, the temp differential easily climbs. At a mere 10C temp
    rise the capacitors alone have halved their lifespan.
  44. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    > > Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
    > > specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..
    >
    > Wrong place to look. They conform to the ATX form factor so there is no
    > need for them to repeat it, nor is that part 'their job'.
    >

    no..
    I dont think it's the wrong place to look to be honest..
    Give me a link for rev1 ATX Form Factor spec sheets .. I REALLY dont think
    we'll find that a fan is "Required" ..
    Intels idea for moving the PSU and CPU near each other was so the PSU
    pulling air through the system would mean the CPU would see fresh air coming
    over that area resulting in better temps..
    The only thing I figgure you'll see in the design spec is that a section for
    a fan is left in the front of the case oppsite the corner of the psu.. (I
    could be wrong but I dont know where to get the ATX Chassis Form Factor
    Sheets..
    I have had many and worked on many pc's since 1995 (when ATX came out) and
    to be honest I NEVER had a case fan until I got my AXP2500+..
    I had only ever seen (personally) one pc that had a case fan in it before
    that..
    And to be honest, my current axp2500+ doesnt even need the case fans..
  45. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    rstlne wrote:

    >>>Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
    >>>specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..
    >>
    >>Wrong place to look. They conform to the ATX form factor so there is no
    >>need for them to repeat it, nor is that part 'their job'.
    >>
    >
    >
    > no..
    > I dont think it's the wrong place to look to be honest..

    Well, it is the wrong place regardless. They don't define the form factor,
    nor do they make the case, nor spec the cooling for it. They make
    motherboards designed to go IN the form factor and so FOLLOW the spec, not
    write it.

    > Give me a link for rev1 ATX Form Factor spec sheets .. I REALLY dont think
    > we'll find that a fan is "Required" ..
    > Intels idea for moving the PSU and CPU near each other was so the PSU
    > pulling air through the system would mean the CPU would see fresh air coming
    > over that area resulting in better temps..

    And what does the PSU use for "pulling air through the system?"

    > The only thing I figgure you'll see in the design spec is that a section for
    > a fan is left in the front of the case oppsite the corner of the psu.. (I
    > could be wrong but I dont know where to get the ATX Chassis Form Factor
    > Sheets..
    > I have had many and worked on many pc's since 1995 (when ATX came out) and
    > to be honest I NEVER had a case fan until I got my AXP2500+..

    That would be a second fan.

    > I had only ever seen (personally) one pc that had a case fan in it before
    > that..
    > And to be honest, my current axp2500+ doesnt even need the case fans..

    It still has a PSU fan. Remove that fan and you don't have, as you said,
    the PSU "pulling air through the system" as the ATX form factor expects as
    a minimum.
  46. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:37:02 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:

    >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:24:34 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:42:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    >> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>> Water cooler has no pump?
    >>>> If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    >>>> completely silent.
    >>>
    >>> As I said in the other reply, it is SILENT unless my ear is on the radiator and I am crouched uncomfortably under the desk!!!
    >>
    >> Fans can be too.
    >
    >I've yet to find one. Which particular model did you use, and using what model of fan controller?

    Panaflo, "L" speed in the size of your choice. For optimal fan
    control try a series of diodes, but just about any fan controller
    with suitable range can get close to same result, providing it
    has full (or nearly so) range, adjustment down to at least 4-5V.
    Lowest cost implementation would be seen by having an adjustment
    method, I have a pair of 100Ohm POTs for resistor sizing and a
    12-position switch with diode-pairs in series for determining #
    of diodes per specific fans. Avoid expensive larger fans like
    120x38 mm or at least inquire whether they are voltage-dependant,
    as some have internal regulation to achieve fixed RPM at a given
    larger voltage range. Sunon and Comair are type makes with this
    feature in some models, I don't recall in most others as i
    usually deal in bulk with Nidec, NMB, Panaflo. Panaflo are the
    quietest of the three due to the hydrowave (sleeve) bearing.


    >> Of course not, since you jumped to conclusions instead of
    >> pursuing it. People do it all the time, there are reviews and
    >> recommendations all over the web, try a Google search.
    >
    >I have. It's a maze. There are articles everywhere, and what many call silent are not.

    Success may not be seen on first try, and some people DO appear
    to be tone-deaf after a certain point, I have heard several
    people claim "quiet" for parts I'd consider too loud for a "PC".
    Ideally the fans should not be on front wall of case, be as large
    and thick as possible given size constraints, but with multiple
    fans to allow suitable flow rate at lowest RPM. A Panaflo can
    run at around 5V, though part of the noise level is determined by
    how it's mounted, the case wall thickness, overall case design,
    nearby obstructions and orientation relative to the ear. It's
    much easier to make a "quiet" system than silent, and even one
    only "quiet" can be inaudible if placed under a desk, without
    much consideration of specific fan models provided a speed
    controller is used. Ear-level on a desk with higher-heat parts
    is the most challenging, can be necessary to line case with sound
    absorbant material and have rear of PSU, where most noise
    escapes, pointed at a low-density materal.


    >
    >>>> and while
    >>>> inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    >>>> the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >>>>
    >>>> MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    >>>> meant to use fans.
    >>>
    >>> So what?
    >>
    >> So you wanted to use it as an example, when the whole reason it's
    >> fanless is that they designed it from ground up to be that way.
    >> Note that the had to reengineer the whole thing
    >
    >Reengineering is different from moifying in what way?

    You have already mentioned more changes (like case orientation)
    than you did originally, it may be that you have made enough
    modifications to help a lot, but the issue is then how many, how
    effective they are. We cannot see your case, only what you
    describe of it. To a certain extent it's expected that you
    would've mentioned the ways it deviates from "normal". If you
    did make enough changes and monitored the result then it may not
    be so different from their reengineering, but remeober that they
    designed it from the ground up, did not have to make any
    compromises at all. Simply starting out with a standard case, no
    matter how you orient it, is already a significant compromise.
    Note how Apple allowed quite a bit of flow staight up though that
    cube.
  47. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:42:30 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >
    >
    >>
    >> Water cooler has no pump?
    >> If it has a pump, "inaudible" would be a better description than
    >> completely silent. Fans can also be inaudible, and while
    >> inaudible, can keep OTHER components in the system cooler than
    >> the water cooling since it only focuses on specific components.
    >>
    >> MAC cube is a different design, not an alteration of a design
    >> meant to use fans.
    >
    >Traditional home PC's were not made with "fans" in mind..

    Wrong, the fan in the power supply was sufficient for the amount
    of heat generated. When it became necessary to increase airflow
    to combat higher heat parts, that's exactly what they did.

    >Find an asus/tyan/msi/abit/gigabyte/Leadtek/Soltek/DfiLanParty board
    >specification that REQUIRES case fans in their specifications..

    A board isn't a case. Some of them do make cases, with fan
    mounts, often fan already in the mount, and barebones systems
    with fans in them. Where do they specify that you even need a
    case at all?
  48. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:09:26 GMT, "rstlne"
    <.@text.news.virgin.net> wrote:

    >
    >> >Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years.
    >Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after
    >repeated failure.
    >>
    >> That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
    >> You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
    >> till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
    >> replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
    >> to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.
    >>
    >
    >You seem to be really confusing things here..


    Nope, I"m quite clear on what happens.
    A warranty isn't of much use if the part fails in a system that
    can't tolerate weeks or longer downtime, so a replacement part
    must be bought.

    >I am starting to think your a troll.. but If not then I say consider this..

    Ok, think it, but in the meantime my parts aren't baking to an
    early demise. I'm not advocating hurricane force fans, just the
    proven solutions that achieve temp conducive to expected
    component lifespan.


    >The PSU company wants to make money..
    >If they have to replace 100% of their sold stock then that means they'll
    >probably not be in profit..

    Not true when they have a huge markup.
    Ever priced something labeled as "silent"? Usually that 6 letter
    word adds 50% to the price, if not more.


    >So in other words.. This stuff will work for most people under most
    >conditions..

    What's "this stuff"?
    A specific PSU has a specific load rating and an expected
    lifespan at a specific temp. "Most" people do not put water
    blocks in their power supplies, take out all their case fans,
    etc. That's not "most conditions" either. "This stuff" is only
    tried by fringe users annoyed by junk components and deluded by
    kiddie website articles. An optimally designed system can be
    VERY quiet, OEMS prove it year after year, but they're
    constrained by EMI emission limits, while an end-user already
    demonstrating a willingness to modify, can have even quieter or
    cooler (or both) system than seen from an OEM.

    >You cant get 600w fanless PSU's because they just cant manage it..
    >You can get 200/300/350 Out the wazoo because they can manage it.. They are
    >not going to make kit that HAS to be replaced..
    >It's like making a car that's so poor in quality that the whole car will
    >need to be replaced.. It's not something the mfgr's do.

    Actually, any PSU has a finite lifespan. They all eventually
    would need be replaced. The issue is then if the lifespan
    exceeded user's needs... not only the buyer, but whoever else
    might use the system. For example, right now I'm sure I can find
    someone who will want my current most-used systems when I'm ready
    to replace them again.

    I"m not implying that it's guaranteed that a passively cooled PSU
    willl die before it's warranty is up, but the odds are very high
    that it's lifespan will not be anywhere near that of a
    traditionally designed name-brand PSU of same price range. I am
    now drifting into vagueness, the specific PSU needs be evaluated
    for fitness powering specific components, it's temp used as one
    gauge of whether it is appropriate for the system (as it is
    designed).
  49. Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.overclocking,alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt,alt.comp.hardware.overclocking.amd,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc (More info?)

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:58:36 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:34:38 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    > <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:18:40 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:45 +0100, "Peter Hucker"
    >>> <hucker@clara.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>> I sell you a 9V battery for $150.
    >>>>> I warrant it to power your system for 3 years.
    >>>>> Of course the product is unfit for advertised use per it's specs,
    >>>>> but so are many generic psu.
    >>>>> Of course it won't, so when you try it the battery fails
    >>>>> (hopefully nothing else does) and you return battery to me. A
    >>>>> month or two later (maybe longer) you get new 9V battery in the
    >>>>> mail. This goes on over and over and after 3 years I've still
    >>>>> retained a profit but you still don't have a viable power
    >>>>> solution. Granted this is an absurd extreme but goes to show
    >>>>> that a warranty is not an indicator of expected lifespan. MTBF
    >>>>> "could" be in a perfect world but this one isn't so (perfect).
    >>>>
    >>>> Doesn't bother me. I have the use of a silent power supply for 3 years. Anyway we have the sale of goods act, and I'd get my money back after repeated failure.
    >>>
    >>> That's just it, you DON'T have the use of it if/when it fails.
    >>> You have the use till then, but a system failure and downtime
    >>> till manufacturer receives it, gets around to sending you another
    >>> replacement. If you can't wait for the replacement then you have
    >>> to buy another power supply, so it's now 2X the cost.
    >>
    >> So I use a noisy cheap one while I wait.
    >>
    >>>>> Keep in mind that a decent power supply will last close to a
    >>>>> decade, 3 year warranty should only be a factor for a low-end
    >>>>> unit, insufficient capacity for the system, defect or failure
    >>>>> fairly isolated from the design of PSU. 3 years is very short
    >>>>> lifespan for a name-brand PSU that typically costs much less per
    >>>>> same true wattage.
    >>>>
    >>>> I probably won't have it in 10 years. People (well not me anyway) don't stick to the same computer parts!
    >>>
    >>> ... and it is your decision to make! If you want disposable
    >>> parts that's your choice but it's not very kind to the
    >>> environment, particularly when today's 3GHz systems have enough
    >>> processing power to remain viable for much longer than those from
    >>> 10 years ago. Even if you personally don't want the system,
    >>> someone else might.
    >>
    >> I don't really like wasting things, but they are selling it, so I am assuming that Thermaltake et al are not charletons. Perhaps I shall forward this conversation to them and see what they think of you.
    >
    > Go ahead, I'd like more details of how they did it. Keep in mind
    > that I did not speculate on their specific implementation beyond
    > it's limited amperage rating, rather your implementation which
    > was a hack job.
    >
    > While you're out looking for support, drop in to some web forums
    > and ask if they think it's a good idea to run a fanless system
    > that isn't optimized specifically for this, including parts
    > selection.
    >
    > While you're out, drop into the document section of your CPU
    > manufacturer's website and see what they have to say about
    > chassis cooling. Ask your motherboard manufacturer too. You
    > might even luck out and find they claim it's ok, since the part
    > may last till the end of a warranty period, even though the
    > lifespan may be reduced by 50% or more.
    >
    > You seem to have no grasp of the situation... your PSU is dead
    > because of your effort and yet you STILL can't learn from the
    > mistake. There ARE cases designed to passively cool, but it
    > takes a bit more than just traditional water-cooling, which is
    > meant to suppliment case cooling, not replace it.

    Hey I won't get anywhere without experimenting.


    --
    *****TWO BABY CONURES***** 15 parrots and increasing http://www.petersparrots.com
    93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
    1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
    Served from a pentawatercooled dual silent Athlon 2.8 with terrabyte raid

    What's the German word for Vaseline?
    Vienerslide.
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