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Followup to ISO Reliable Hard Drive

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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 7:18:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Well last week I replaced an older Maxtor 20 gig drive with a new 6Y120P0
model 120 gig drive.

This morning I was greeted by a BSOD: KERNAL_DATA_PAGE_ERROR.

I found out two things:

one of my Maxtor drives that make up a RAID 0 array has failed.

I dealt with that and rebooted, only to find out that I also have no C:
drive (the week old Maxtor). That drive isn't even being seen by the BIOS!
All I hear is a 'clank' sound when that drive is accessed by the boot
routine.

Well I guess that does it for Maxtors. They have an MTBF of about 168
hours...

Too bad I lost all my income tax return data. It was a complex business
return that I've been working on for weeks. I had backed it up across
multiple partitions, but of course, all partitions are gone...

--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 7:23:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

> Well I guess that does it for Maxtors. They have an MTBF of about 168
> hours...


The Maxtors that I've owned have lasted anywhere from 2 weeks to 6
months. They're definately at the bottom of my list.


-WD
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 8:45:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 15:18:54 GMT, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Well last week I replaced an older Maxtor 20 gig drive with a new 6Y120P0
>model 120 gig drive.
>
>This morning I was greeted by a BSOD: KERNAL_DATA_PAGE_ERROR.
>
>I found out two things:
>
>one of my Maxtor drives that make up a RAID 0 array has failed.
>
>I dealt with that and rebooted, only to find out that I also have no C:
>drive (the week old Maxtor). That drive isn't even being seen by the BIOS!
>All I hear is a 'clank' sound when that drive is accessed by the boot
>routine.
>
>Well I guess that does it for Maxtors. They have an MTBF of about 168
>hours...
>
>Too bad I lost all my income tax return data. It was a complex business
>return that I've been working on for weeks. I had backed it up across
>multiple partitions, but of course, all partitions are gone...

Recalling your previous post...
Maxtor drives do not fail that quickly without some serious problem
outside of the drive itself. If you'd had one drive fail that might just
make you unlucky, but with failure after failure you're either so unlucky
that you'd better start chanting, rolling the bones and drawing circles
around yourself, else you're causing these drive's failures.

If you can't get a drive working right for your needs, pay a professional
to do it. Perhaps you have poor power or your wife kicks your system out
of spite... I just don't know, but nobody is so unlucky to have this many
failures with different models, not with so many other people seeing
normal service, no significant difference in failure rate of Maxtors over
any other brand.

If you lost all your income tax return data, it's your own fault. I
emphasized making backups but you didn't seem to have enough sense to take
that to heart and just do it. Learn from your mistakes instead of whining
and blaming.

On the other hand, you seem to be a troll, against Maxtor, since you
previously reported problems yet bought another Maxtor. If you'd had
valid suspicions about Maxtor drives they would've been the last brand to
buy, since they aren't the only brand out there...
Related resources
April 6, 2004 8:48:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Hmmm. I guess I'm having a hard time having sympathy for someone who stores
semi-critical documents on a RAID 0 device without off-drive backups. With
RAID 0, you basically double your chances of losing the data on your drives.
You might put in the array for performance or space reasons, but it's not a
good fit for business related documents, in my mind. And assuming that your
multiple partitions were on the same drive, I'm not sure what you were
expecting to gain by doing that. Ideally, you'd have a backup off-site, a
backup off computer, and I guess another backup on your computer if you so
desire, preferrably on another HD. Putting it on another partition is no
more safe than another folder on the same HD, in terms of protection from
hardware failures.

BTW, RAID 1 is the one to use for systems you want to make safer, but you'll
lose half your storage space. RAID 5 is a compromise between the
performance benefits of RAID 0 and the security of RAID 1, but I don't know
if I've seen a motherboard based IDE version of this available.

Clint

"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yTzcc.11888$NL4.4909@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Well last week I replaced an older Maxtor 20 gig drive with a new 6Y120P0
> model 120 gig drive.
>
> This morning I was greeted by a BSOD: KERNAL_DATA_PAGE_ERROR.
>
> I found out two things:
>
> one of my Maxtor drives that make up a RAID 0 array has failed.
>
> I dealt with that and rebooted, only to find out that I also have no C:
> drive (the week old Maxtor). That drive isn't even being seen by the BIOS!
> All I hear is a 'clank' sound when that drive is accessed by the boot
> routine.
>
> Well I guess that does it for Maxtors. They have an MTBF of about 168
> hours...
>
> Too bad I lost all my income tax return data. It was a complex business
> return that I've been working on for weeks. I had backed it up across
> multiple partitions, but of course, all partitions are gone...
>
> --
>
> Take care,
>
> Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
>
> Business sites at:
> www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
> www.mwcomms.com
> www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
> -
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 9:36:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

> Recalling your previous post...
> Maxtor drives do not fail that quickly without some serious problem
> outside of the drive itself. If you'd had one drive fail that might just
> make you unlucky, but with failure after failure you're either so unlucky
> that you'd better start chanting, rolling the bones and drawing circles
> around yourself, else you're causing these drive's failures.

Yeah, I suppose I need to hire a voodoo expert, as I seem to be haunted with
many Maxtor failures.
I should point out that the failures were on various PCs, not all on one PC.

After letting this PC cool down for an hour, I was able to boot it. The C
drive was flakey however, appearing then disappearing and causing Win 2K to
BSOD during boot with a no valid boot device error. A subsequent reboot
allowed Windows to boot fully and I've managed to copy over critical
business data from the 1st physical drive to another drive. The problem is
that I've got over 100 gigs of data left on the RAID with nowhere large
enough to copy it to. It would take 27 hours to back it up to DVD-R discs.

I think the ultimate solution is to go back to SCSI drives. I've never had
one of those fail. The problem is price and low capacity and low speed
(compared to today's fast IDE drives).


> If you can't get a drive working right for your needs, pay a professional
> to do it. Perhaps you have poor power or your wife kicks your system out
> of spite... I just don't know, but nobody is so unlucky to have this many
> failures with different models, not with so many other people seeing
> normal service, no significant difference in failure rate of Maxtors over
> any other brand.

I've been building computers professionally since the 1980s, and I am a
certified Professional Engineer with BSEE and BSME degrees, so I certainly
know how to install and setup simple PC hard drives. I've taken into account
factors like conditioned power, thermodynamics and cable dress, to ensure
that I've eliminated as many causes for failure as possible. The room
temperature is 66 degrees F, dropping to 64F overnight (which is when the
drive failed).

I've got a TrippLite line conditioner on this circuit and the whole circuit
feeding the computer network is fed by a huge APC UPS with additional line
filtering. As a last line of defense, I have power strips with MOV surge
protectors, right where the PC is plugged in.

Thermally, I have six 80 and 120mm fans cooling the tower. The new drive
that failed, was the one by itself, closest to one of the fans, in the
bottom of the case. Clearly, if the drive cannot function at 75F (internal
temp measured at that location) then there is something clearly wrong with
it.

In contrast, my Seagate 4.5GB wide SCSI drive is in another system that has
only one fan in the PSU, runs hot as hell, and has been running since 1995
24/7 without a failure, and continues to run as I type this. I also have a
Seagate ST12550N in a Pentium 100 system, that also runs hot, but has been
running since 1991, 24/7 and is accessible right now.


> If you lost all your income tax return data, it's your own fault. I
> emphasized making backups but you didn't seem to have enough sense to take
> that to heart and just do it. Learn from your mistakes instead of whining
> and blaming.

I'll admit that was not so smart, but TaxCut needs a floppy to back up and
the new systems don't have floppy drives. I was planning to burn a CD the
other day, but didn't get around to it. Frankly, I didn't expect the new
drive to fail so soon.


> On the other hand, you seem to be a troll, against Maxtor, since you
> previously reported problems yet bought another Maxtor. If you'd had
> valid suspicions about Maxtor drives they would've been the last brand to
> buy, since they aren't the only brand out there...

Not at all. You seem to have an attitude problem. But then Usenet is full of
your high and mighty kind. I'm a power user of hardware and I am just
dismayed that IDE drives don't last to 1% of their MTBF rating. They should
last as long as SCSI drives, but alas, I think I am seeing a false economy
with IDE.. they are apparently built of cheap components to sell cheap, and
the consolation is liberal return policies. A waste-making business
philosophy.


--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 9:42:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"Clint" <noone@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:mbBcc.38707$Ig.9830@pd7tw2no...
> Hmmm. I guess I'm having a hard time having sympathy for someone who
stores
> semi-critical documents on a RAID 0 device without off-drive backups.
With
> RAID 0, you basically double your chances of losing the data on your
drives.
> You might put in the array for performance or space reasons, but it's not
a
> good fit for business related documents, in my mind. And assuming that
your
> multiple partitions were on the same drive, I'm not sure what you were
> expecting to gain by doing that. Ideally, you'd have a backup off-site, a
> backup off computer, and I guess another backup on your computer if you so
> desire, preferrably on another HD. Putting it on another partition is no
> more safe than another folder on the same HD, in terms of protection from
> hardware failures.
>
> BTW, RAID 1 is the one to use for systems you want to make safer, but
you'll
> lose half your storage space. RAID 5 is a compromise between the
> performance benefits of RAID 0 and the security of RAID 1, but I don't
know
> if I've seen a motherboard based IDE version of this available.
>
> Clint


In case it wasn't clear, I had TWO physical drives fail over night.

The RAID is loaded with 100+ gigs of video projects in progress.

The non-RAID C drive is where the business data is.

After cooling the system down, I was able to access both again. But having
to run the drives at 66F seems a little extreme. My Seagate SCSI drives are
running at 128F and continue to run, going on 14 years of 24/7 operation
now, with zero problems. The SCSI have no extra cooling fans. The IDEs
however have SIX big cooling fans the move air through the tower rapidly.
This was done as this system was originally built with overclocking in mind,
but the system is being run and standard clock rates and enjoying
below-average temperatures as a result of the excessive number of cooling
fans.

The problem is something's wrong with these drives. I wonder if
CompuPlus.com, where I buy these drives, is selling me factory seconds?
Their prices are always 20-30% lower than the competition. The 6Y0P0 120GB
8MG cache drive was $86 through them, as much as $129 elswhere.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
April 6, 2004 9:55:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Ahh, I understand more now.

BTW, the only HD I've had fail in the recent past (like last 7 years) was a
Maxtor 60GB 5400 rpm drive. I had actually ordered a CD burner to backup 10
months worth of pictures, had the burner sitting at my brother-in-law's
place awaiting their next trip to visit, and it died in the 1 week period
between him picking up the drive and delivering it. I had backups of most
of the pictures, except for the last month, which included my son's 3rd
birthday. Whoops. Try explaining that one to the wife! :)  Of course, it's
easier to get permission for new hardware purchases now... Oh, and the
Maxtor replacement policy got me a 80GB drive in exchange for the 60, which
was nice. But my primary drive is now a Seagate rather than the 80GB
Maxtor. I just use the Maxtor as a backup for the primary drive.

Clint

"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:y_Bcc.11943$NL4.5052@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "Clint" <noone@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
> news:mbBcc.38707$Ig.9830@pd7tw2no...
> > Hmmm. I guess I'm having a hard time having sympathy for someone who
> stores
> > semi-critical documents on a RAID 0 device without off-drive backups.
> With
> > RAID 0, you basically double your chances of losing the data on your
> drives.
> > You might put in the array for performance or space reasons, but it's
not
> a
> > good fit for business related documents, in my mind. And assuming that
> your
> > multiple partitions were on the same drive, I'm not sure what you were
> > expecting to gain by doing that. Ideally, you'd have a backup off-site,
a
> > backup off computer, and I guess another backup on your computer if you
so
> > desire, preferrably on another HD. Putting it on another partition is
no
> > more safe than another folder on the same HD, in terms of protection
from
> > hardware failures.
> >
> > BTW, RAID 1 is the one to use for systems you want to make safer, but
> you'll
> > lose half your storage space. RAID 5 is a compromise between the
> > performance benefits of RAID 0 and the security of RAID 1, but I don't
> know
> > if I've seen a motherboard based IDE version of this available.
> >
> > Clint
>
>
> In case it wasn't clear, I had TWO physical drives fail over night.
>
> The RAID is loaded with 100+ gigs of video projects in progress.
>
> The non-RAID C drive is where the business data is.
>
> After cooling the system down, I was able to access both again. But having
> to run the drives at 66F seems a little extreme. My Seagate SCSI drives
are
> running at 128F and continue to run, going on 14 years of 24/7 operation
> now, with zero problems. The SCSI have no extra cooling fans. The IDEs
> however have SIX big cooling fans the move air through the tower rapidly.
> This was done as this system was originally built with overclocking in
mind,
> but the system is being run and standard clock rates and enjoying
> below-average temperatures as a result of the excessive number of cooling
> fans.
>
> The problem is something's wrong with these drives. I wonder if
> CompuPlus.com, where I buy these drives, is selling me factory seconds?
> Their prices are always 20-30% lower than the competition. The 6Y0P0 120GB
> 8MG cache drive was $86 through them, as much as $129 elswhere.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Take care,
>
> Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
>
> Business sites at:
> www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
> www.mwcomms.com
> www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
> -
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 10:20:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

> I'm going out to Circuit City to buy an overpriced Western Digital drive to
> replace this one.
> I already have a spare 6Y0L0 80 gig drive for the RAID (the replacement that
> Maxtor sent me last year for the first drive that failed).
> I suppose I'll have to get Maxtor to replace these drives, but I won't
> install the replacements. I'll sell them on Ebay to get my money back.


I originally bought a pair of Maxtors to make a RAID 0 array. One of
them failed pretty quickly. Each of the drives I have received as an
RMA has also failed, except for the very latest one. If it fails
within a period of 30 days, they should give you a new one. Otherwise,
you get a "refurbished" one.


-WD
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 10:26:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"Clint" <noone@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:NaCcc.37767$oR5.8271@pd7tw3no...
> Ahh, I understand more now.
>
> BTW, the only HD I've had fail in the recent past (like last 7 years) was
a
> Maxtor 60GB 5400 rpm drive. I had actually ordered a CD burner to backup
10
> months worth of pictures, had the burner sitting at my brother-in-law's
> place awaiting their next trip to visit, and it died in the 1 week period
> between him picking up the drive and delivering it. I had backups of most
> of the pictures, except for the last month, which included my son's 3rd
> birthday. Whoops. Try explaining that one to the wife! :)  Of course,
it's
> easier to get permission for new hardware purchases now... Oh, and the
> Maxtor replacement policy got me a 80GB drive in exchange for the 60,
which
> was nice. But my primary drive is now a Seagate rather than the 80GB
> Maxtor. I just use the Maxtor as a backup for the primary drive.
>
> Clint


This incident has had me reconsidering SCSI again. Although the cost of half
a terrabyte of SCSI storage would easily be more than that of all the
computer hardware on this network!

I try to make reasonable backups, and really important stuff, if it's not
too big, gets backed up often, like every save, but the hundreds of gigs of
video work in progress presents a problem. Tax records were also a problem.
I had put in about 20 hours of calculation, records reseach and finding out
how to enter this and that deduction. I had backed it up on March 17th. I
made multiple copies across partitions after that, in case I overwrote C:
again with a system image restore as is often the case. Not expecting a new
drive to fail, not one with FDB an SMART reporting a healthy drive last
night.

I've written a stern letter to CompuPlus regarding the drive failure and
questioning whether they are selling grey market, rejected or otherwise less
than full-quality drives.

It's interesting that I have a 9 year old Western Digital drive in an old
Pentium 200 PC that is still flawless.

But I won't be buying anymore Maxtors. I've had it with them. I will write
their CEO with my dissatisfaction.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 10:33:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"Will Dormann" <wdormann@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ZxCcc.25988$bP5.3657@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
> Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
>
> > I'm going out to Circuit City to buy an overpriced Western Digital drive
to
> > replace this one.
> > I already have a spare 6Y0L0 80 gig drive for the RAID (the replacement
that
> > Maxtor sent me last year for the first drive that failed).
> > I suppose I'll have to get Maxtor to replace these drives, but I won't
> > install the replacements. I'll sell them on Ebay to get my money back.
>
>
> I originally bought a pair of Maxtors to make a RAID 0 array. One of
> them failed pretty quickly. Each of the drives I have received as an
> RMA has also failed, except for the very latest one. If it fails
> within a period of 30 days, they should give you a new one. Otherwise,
> you get a "refurbished" one.
>
>
> -WD


This new one was purchased a week ago. But the manufacture date is Sept
2003. CompuPlus must have had it sitting in the warehouse a while.
The Maxtor RMA procedure goes by the serial number and that's it. Their form
doesn't ask the purchase date.

I know they will replace the drive as in the past, but I will not use them
again. I'm going to put in Western Digital this time and see if things go
better.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 10:35:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

> This new one was purchased a week ago. But the manufacture date is Sept
> 2003. CompuPlus must have had it sitting in the warehouse a while.
> The Maxtor RMA procedure goes by the serial number and that's it. Their form
> doesn't ask the purchase date.

The last RMA that I did was using their website. I think it was this link:
https://www.maxtor.com/en/support/service/rma/create/01...

I know that in one of the steps they asked if the drive failed before or
after 30 days of use. (This is what determines whether you get a new
or used drive as an RMA)

This is the way it was when I last did it. (around September).
The new drive that they sent me is still working fine in my MythTV
machine. (Knock on wood)

All other RMA drives they sent me were used, and also had failed before
too long. This doesn't surprise me, as the Maxtor Powermax software
has a "Factory Recertification" test that you can do. I've had drives
which would be making this repeated "ker-thunk" sound and the PC is
frozen during that time, but it still passed the factory recertification.


-WD
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 11:01:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 17:36:13 GMT, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:


>Yeah, I suppose I need to hire a voodoo expert, as I seem to be haunted with
>many Maxtor failures.
>I should point out that the failures were on various PCs, not all on one PC.

That's the puzzling part. I didn't mean to get too personal, but look at
it from our perspective, that the only commonality here is that you are
involved... There is no obvious problem in what you're doing, at least not
that you mention, yet your failure rates are atypical... If it were only
one or two drives, it could be considered a random failure, but it's not
so random after multiple failures.

>After letting this PC cool down for an hour, I was able to boot it. The C
>drive was flakey however, appearing then disappearing and causing Win 2K to
>BSOD during boot with a no valid boot device error. A subsequent reboot
>allowed Windows to boot fully and I've managed to copy over critical
>business data from the 1st physical drive to another drive. The problem is
>that I've got over 100 gigs of data left on the RAID with nowhere large
>enough to copy it to. It would take 27 hours to back it up to DVD-R discs.

Ya know, some RAID controllers are prone to lose configurations. Since
you have multiple systems at issue you might not be having this problem,
but it's another thing to consider.


>I think the ultimate solution is to go back to SCSI drives. I've never had
>one of those fail. The problem is price and low capacity and low speed
>(compared to today's fast IDE drives).

If that's what it takes, use SCSI. On the other hand, mirrored arrays of
IDE drives may not be more expensive, and would provide the redundancy
that's clearly needed, particularly for somone like yourself who keeps
having drive failures and can't take the time to make backups.


>> If you can't get a drive working right for your needs, pay a professional
>> to do it. Perhaps you have poor power or your wife kicks your system out
>> of spite... I just don't know, but nobody is so unlucky to have this many
>> failures with different models, not with so many other people seeing
>> normal service, no significant difference in failure rate of Maxtors over
>> any other brand.
>
>I've been building computers professionally since the 1980s, and I am a
>certified Professional Engineer with BSEE and BSME degrees, so I certainly
>know how to install and setup simple PC hard drives. I've taken into account
>factors like conditioned power, thermodynamics and cable dress, to ensure
>that I've eliminated as many causes for failure as possible. The room
>temperature is 66 degrees F, dropping to 64F overnight (which is when the
>drive failed).

yeah, yeah, yeah.... No doubt you're good at many aspects of PCs, but
NOBODY is an expert at everything. Actually it's usually the engineers or
wannabes that have the most problems because in addition to their
knowledge they have preconceived notions, assumptions that aren't
necessarily true. The preceeding isn't _necessarily_ directed at you,
but it could apply. Re/re/review everything again and see if there isn't
something about your setup that is different... don't assume it's ok, look
at how it differs from (most everyone's) properly working drive(s).

I'd look at the IDE controllers, system power supplies. Perhaps it's
overheating if you've tightly stacked the drives but otherwise it seems
less likely, given the server case with a multitude of fans in ~65F
ambient.

>I've got a TrippLite line conditioner on this circuit and the whole circuit
>feeding the computer network is fed by a huge APC UPS with additional line
>filtering. As a last line of defense, I have power strips with MOV surge
>protectors, right where the PC is plugged in.

It's good to have line conditioning but you make no mention of the power
supply itself. That would be isolated to one system, or perhaps not? I
see businessses and purchasers of bulk equipment that may have several of
the same thing, so when they have a problem they're facing it on multiple
machines. Look for commonalities to these failures, as it's not common
for a drive to fail that quickly even if running a bit too hot.

>
>Thermally, I have six 80 and 120mm fans cooling the tower. The new drive
>that failed, was the one by itself, closest to one of the fans, in the
>bottom of the case. Clearly, if the drive cannot function at 75F (internal
>temp measured at that location) then there is something clearly wrong with
>it.

"Close to" equates to actively cooled? Perhaps it does, only you have the
system in front of you. Perhaps the temp is fine, but a 75F ambient
without sufficient airflow reducing the drive's operating temp will likely
result in excessive temp, but it shouldn't have failed THAT quickly.

>In contrast, my Seagate 4.5GB wide SCSI drive is in another system that has
>only one fan in the PSU, runs hot as hell, and has been running since 1995
>24/7 without a failure, and continues to run as I type this. I also have a
>Seagate ST12550N in a Pentium 100 system, that also runs hot, but has been
>running since 1991, 24/7 and is accessible right now.

.... then buy a Seagate SCSI
Let's play Devil's advocate for a second. Maybe Maxor is the worst
possible brand and will fail 20 seconds after being powered on. Maybe
they have something against you and are conspiring against you, so the
cost savings doesn't matter since they don't work, and even a free
replacement is of no use, so you buy what you need and move on.... you
like SCSI, buy SCSI. As for cheaper IDE drives, I don't see any reason to
believe Western Digital or Seagate (or any other brand for that matter)
will last longer... users report failures of all brands, seeminly at a
rate correspondant to the sales volume. If there's one drive that seems
more prone to failure in recent history it's a Western Digital Raptor...
at places like Newegg.com there are user reports of roughly 1 in 12
failing, but then those must be taken with a grain of salt... the same
users may be buying .7mm thick cases that sway sideways when the wind
blows and have power supplies worth 1/2 the rated output.

>> If you lost all your income tax return data, it's your own fault. I
>> emphasized making backups but you didn't seem to have enough sense to take
>> that to heart and just do it. Learn from your mistakes instead of whining
>> and blaming.
>
>I'll admit that was not so smart, but TaxCut needs a floppy to back up and
>the new systems don't have floppy drives.

User error. Taxcut needs backup to floppy but user didn't install a basic
component that's dirt-cheap and standard equipment for decades. What
where you thinking? Nevermind, it doesn't matter, you were thinking you
don't have to backup data. The experience you refered to previously,
obviously isn't sufficient because you still don't make backups. Even if
you have TB of data, that is not an exemption from timely backups.

In case it isn't clear yet, you need to backup your data.


>I was planning to burn a CD the
>other day, but didn't get around to it. Frankly, I didn't expect the new
>drive to fail so soon.

Backups are not based around expectations or some hint of problems.
They're a standard practice for any valuable data.


>
>
>> On the other hand, you seem to be a troll, against Maxtor, since you
>> previously reported problems yet bought another Maxtor. If you'd had
>> valid suspicions about Maxtor drives they would've been the last brand to
>> buy, since they aren't the only brand out there...
>
>Not at all. You seem to have an attitude problem.

I"m not the one who can't keep drives working, including Maxtors. I
probably have the same model that just failed on you, I'm certain it's a
120GB Maxtor... running flawlessly as are plenty of other Maxtors and
other make of IDE drives. Even so, I MAKE BACKUPS.

So, the person who has continual drive failures, doesn't make backups.
Who needs their attitude adjusted?

> But then Usenet is full of
>your high and mighty kind.

LOL.
Let's review.

Last time you posted, didn't I advise to make backups?
Did you?
Who was too "high and mighty" to follow standard data storage practices?
Who provided good advice even though it fell on deaf ears?

>I'm a power user of hardware

You're a reckless user of hardware. A storage power user would have SCSI
or at least WD Raptors. A video editing power user would save to lossless
compressed format to conserve space, and use the extra space for backup
and/or a mirror if they didn't have that in place already, were forced to
use the compression in able to have adequate storage space for it.


>and I am just
>dismayed that IDE drives don't last to 1% of their MTBF rating. They should
>last as long as SCSI drives, but alas, I think I am seeing a false economy
>with IDE.. they are apparently built of cheap components to sell cheap, and
>the consolation is liberal return policies. A waste-making business
>philosophy.

That is only apparent to you, since the rest of the industry isn't seeing
same failure rate. You must live in an alternate universe where the only
viable solution is a Seagate SCSI. Fortunately you are free to buy
whatever you like. At any rate, you seem jinxed against Maxtors... sell
the replacement on ebay and buy something else. Meanwhile my Maxtors are
running fine... there are two different ways to approach a solution but
either does not exclude backing up all valuable data.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 6, 2004 11:05:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"Will Dormann" <wdormann@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:GLCcc.2936$Qv6.538@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
>
> > This new one was purchased a week ago. But the manufacture date is Sept
> > 2003. CompuPlus must have had it sitting in the warehouse a while.
> > The Maxtor RMA procedure goes by the serial number and that's it. Their
form
> > doesn't ask the purchase date.
>
> The last RMA that I did was using their website. I think it was this
link:
>
https://www.maxtor.com/en/support/service/rma/create/01...
=
>
> I know that in one of the steps they asked if the drive failed before or
> after 30 days of use. (This is what determines whether you get a new
> or used drive as an RMA)
>
> This is the way it was when I last did it. (around September).
> The new drive that they sent me is still working fine in my MythTV
> machine. (Knock on wood)
>
> All other RMA drives they sent me were used, and also had failed before
> too long. This doesn't surprise me, as the Maxtor Powermax software
> has a "Factory Recertification" test that you can do. I've had drives
> which would be making this repeated "ker-thunk" sound and the PC is
> frozen during that time, but it still passed the factory recertification.
>
>
> -WD

I think the procedure has changed, as I replaced a drive in my wife's PC
last month that had failed suddenly after a virus scan. The web site asked
only for the serial number and determined by that alone whether the drive
was in or out of warranty. I don't recall having to enter a purchase date,
as I would have remembered trying to find the receipt. :-)
The RMA'd drive I got back over a year ago (for the first RAID that failed)
appeared to be new. I just got confirmation that Maxtor also received my
wife's old drive this week.
The RMA procedure won't proceed without running their PowerMax software and
obtaining a failure code which is a hexadecimal value. Only once that code
is entered will the RMA procedure let you move to the next step.
That's how it was last month. It changes all the time.

Anyway, I took a picture of the interior of my case. I have a 120mm and a
80mm fan side by side pulling air in from the front of case, and blowing
right through a 3" opening on the bottom of the drive bay! It's like a small
hurricane in there. The C: drive that failed today is alone in the bay--no
other heat producers nearby. And it's cold to the touch, like it's not even
running--that's how much air is blowing over it.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 1:25:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

After all that has been said in this discussion, I think two important
points emerge:
1) If your data has any value then you must backup continually onto
something which is more reliable. If this requires continuously running a
'hot backup' system to mirror your data changes in background then so be it.
I too have several machines on a home network and new data is backed up
every night between the machines. If one machine fails in any way the next
day I can just use another and the previous day's data will be there. While
working on one machine, data is backed-up every few minutes onto a different
hard drive - just by manually saving to it. There is no substitute for peace
of mind. CDs take care of off-site backup at various friends and relative's
houses, in case of a major catastrophe or total loss.
2) You probably have one of the best cooled PCs on this newsgroup and yet
still have an extraordinary number of drive failures. Conclusion ? The
problem might not be temperature related. What are we left with ? Either
vibration and shock (maybe moving PCs around) or magnetism (loudspeakers or
magnetic cupboard door latches perhaps ?). Something is causing the problem.
You've eliminated heat so what is left ?

BTW: I've only ever had two hard drives fail me. One because it was dropped
(by the postman, not me) and the other because it was running in a PC on a
wheeled cart when my wife decided to move it over an uneven tiled floor. I'm
afraid I have to claim responsibility for the uneven floor tiles.
Kevin.

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:
| "Clint" <noone@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
| news:NaCcc.37767$oR5.8271@pd7tw3no...
|| Ahh, I understand more now.
||
|| BTW, the only HD I've had fail in the recent past (like last 7
|| years) was a Maxtor 60GB 5400 rpm drive. I had actually ordered a
|| CD burner to backup 10 months worth of pictures, had the burner
|| sitting at my brother-in-law's place awaiting their next trip to
|| visit, and it died in the 1 week period between him picking up the
|| drive and delivering it. I had backups of most of the pictures,
|| except for the last month, which included my son's 3rd birthday.
|| Whoops. Try explaining that one to the wife! :)  Of course, it's
|| easier to get permission for new hardware purchases now... Oh, and
|| the Maxtor replacement policy got me a 80GB drive in exchange for
|| the 60, which was nice. But my primary drive is now a Seagate
|| rather than the 80GB Maxtor. I just use the Maxtor as a backup for
|| the primary drive.
||
|| Clint
|
|
| This incident has had me reconsidering SCSI again. Although the cost
| of half a terrabyte of SCSI storage would easily be more than that of
| all the computer hardware on this network!
|
| I try to make reasonable backups, and really important stuff, if it's
| not too big, gets backed up often, like every save, but the hundreds
| of gigs of video work in progress presents a problem. Tax records
| were also a problem. I had put in about 20 hours of calculation,
| records reseach and finding out how to enter this and that deduction.
| I had backed it up on March 17th. I made multiple copies across
| partitions after that, in case I overwrote C: again with a system
| image restore as is often the case. Not expecting a new drive to
| fail, not one with FDB an SMART reporting a healthy drive last night.
|
| I've written a stern letter to CompuPlus regarding the drive failure
| and questioning whether they are selling grey market, rejected or
| otherwise less than full-quality drives.
|
| It's interesting that I have a 9 year old Western Digital drive in an
| old Pentium 200 PC that is still flawless.
|
| But I won't be buying anymore Maxtors. I've had it with them. I will
| write their CEO with my dissatisfaction.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 2:22:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

> It is possible to arrange this by fabricating your own out of the various
> pieces of ducting available from some overclocking suppliers and odd bits
of
> plastic sheet. I also know of one person who has reversed the CPU fan and
> ducted it straight to a rear exhaust fan. One idea I've used is to make a
> couple of 'baffles' or 'bulkheads' from plastic sheet to divide the
interior
> of the case into separate 'zones' which are each cooled by one intake and
> one exhaust fan. It worked, but only made 2 or 3 degrees difference to
> temps. Maybe if you have real cooling problems it is time to consider
water
> cooling.
> Kevin.
>
>
>

I'm not overclocking this particular system, so the investment in water
cooling would be impractical.
Reversing the fan and ducting out with a 3" flexible hose might be
realistic, but I think you lose a significant amount of thermal energy
transfer with barometric reduction, rather than increase. Blowers work as
well as they do because there is some compression of air as it's being
forced through the heat sink. Reversing the fan would lower the barometric
pressure and spread out the intake flow, reducing the velocity of air flow
over any part of the heat sink, thus reducing cooling efficiency. The
attendant reduction in case temps might offset this loss in efficiency, with
the real benefit being lower temps for the rest of the components, but I can
only speak qualitatively without having conducted extensive tests with
temperature probes and various configurations.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 2:22:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

In article <c4Gcc.12073$NL4.2734@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> It is possible to arrange this by fabricating your own out of the various
>> pieces of ducting available from some overclocking suppliers and odd bits
>of
>> plastic sheet. I also know of one person who has reversed the CPU fan and
>> ducted it straight to a rear exhaust fan. One idea I've used is to make a
>> couple of 'baffles' or 'bulkheads' from plastic sheet to divide the
>interior
>> of the case into separate 'zones' which are each cooled by one intake and
>> one exhaust fan. It worked, but only made 2 or 3 degrees difference to
>> temps. Maybe if you have real cooling problems it is time to consider
>water
>> cooling.
>> Kevin.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I'm not overclocking this particular system, so the investment in water
>cooling would be impractical.
>Reversing the fan and ducting out with a 3" flexible hose might be
>realistic, but I think you lose a significant amount of thermal energy
>transfer with barometric reduction, rather than increase. Blowers work as
>well as they do because there is some compression of air as it's being
>forced through the heat sink. Reversing the fan would lower the barometric
>pressure and spread out the intake flow, reducing the velocity of air flow
>over any part of the heat sink, thus reducing cooling efficiency. The
>attendant reduction in case temps might offset this loss in efficiency, with
>the real benefit being lower temps for the rest of the components, but I can
>only speak qualitatively without having conducted extensive tests with
>temperature probes and various configurations.
>
>



Before you make anything, figure out a way to measure temperatures so
you know what effect you are having. You may have already done this.

CPU temp is easy. I'm told SMART monitoring can get a disk to report
it's temperature but I haven't seen it.

I put a one of these next to important disks

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/cooling/alert/in...

It beeps at $110DegF, which is a conservative max temp for disk
drives.

It costs about $10US.






>
>--
>
>Take care,
>
>Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
>
>Business sites at:
>www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
>www.mwcomms.com
>www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
>-
>
>


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 2:58:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

>
> Keep your disks cool.
>
> I put one of these next to every important disk drive;
>
> http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/products/cooling/alert...
>
> It costs about $10 and screams if the temperature exceeds 110DegF.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Al Dykes
> -----------
> adykes at p a n i x . c o m
>

It looks like the failure threshold for this Maxtor 6Y120P0 is 78F, so I
need one that screams when the case temp exceeds, say 70F.
I would never let my drives hit 110F. That's just too hot for anything
spinning at 7200rpm.

Presently, I have a 120mm and a 80mm fan blowing directly across the
underside of the drive in question, and when I touched the drive's chassis,
it was actually cool, as if it weren't even powered on. The drive is
probably running at 72F case temperature, now that I have the side panel off
the machine.

The PowerMax software has just finished analyzing the drive. It has failed
with a dea49db1 code.


I have also completed cloning of the bad drive's data to a new Western
Digital 160GB drive I picked up at OfficeMax today.

Running nBench, the results are puzzling.

I ran nBench with a 256MB test file size on the Maxtor drive after it was
initially installed. I had symmetrical read / write speeds of about 60MB/S.

This new WD drive is writing at 60MB/S, but reading at only 37MB/S, about
the speed of my 3 year old Maxtor 20GB drive, which is now being used as a
backup. The drive was manufactured this January, but performance is not
bleeding edge by any stretch of imagination. Oddly enough, application load
times seem to be okay. I can't honestly say that apps load any slower than
they did on the Maxtor 6Y120P0 that tested at 60/60.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 2:59:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Al Dykes wrote:

> CPU temp is easy. I'm told SMART monitoring can get a disk to report
> it's temperature but I haven't seen it.

DTemp works great for monitoring drive temperature. (as long as
they're not in a RAID configuration)
http://private.peterlink.ru/tochinov/download.html


-WD
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 3:06:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"Kevin Lawton" <kepla@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c4v77q$7r5$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> After all that has been said in this discussion, I think two important
> points emerge:
> 1) If your data has any value then you must backup continually onto
> something which is more reliable. If this requires continuously running a
> 'hot backup' system to mirror your data changes in background then so be
it.
> I too have several machines on a home network and new data is backed up
> every night between the machines. If one machine fails in any way the next
> day I can just use another and the previous day's data will be there.
While
> working on one machine, data is backed-up every few minutes onto a
different
> hard drive - just by manually saving to it. There is no substitute for
peace
> of mind. CDs take care of off-site backup at various friends and
relative's
> houses, in case of a major catastrophe or total loss.
> 2) You probably have one of the best cooled PCs on this newsgroup and yet
> still have an extraordinary number of drive failures. Conclusion ? The
> problem might not be temperature related. What are we left with ? Either
> vibration and shock (maybe moving PCs around) or magnetism (loudspeakers
or
> magnetic cupboard door latches perhaps ?). Something is causing the
problem.
> You've eliminated heat so what is left ?

I suppose we could point blame at the power supply, but slightly low +12 and
+5 busses don't seem cause for alarm.
The PC tower has never been moved while running, since it was installed in
it's location.
There are no loudspeakers within 10' of the server. However, this PC shares
a sound studio with a very large sound system capable of some mind-blowing
SPLs. However, the system hasn't been used in the past week or more, so that
blows the vibration theory.
I will concede that we killed a Connor drive on an upstairs PC while playing
the opening 32' organ pedal stop to Also Sprach Zarathustra, back in 1989.
We don't do that anymore!



> BTW: I've only ever had two hard drives fail me. One because it was
dropped
> (by the postman, not me) and the other because it was running in a PC on a
> wheeled cart when my wife decided to move it over an uneven tiled floor.
I'm
> afraid I have to claim responsibility for the uneven floor tiles.
> Kevin.

One of the drives in my RAID was dropped by UPS, right in front of me,
before he handed it to me. That drive, or it's partner, failed a few months
later. Can't say it was the drop that killed it. I think it was electrical
in nature, not a head crash.



--

Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com < NOW ONLINE!
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com < NEW Streaming Archives!
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 3:10:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:58:08 GMT, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:


>It looks like the failure threshold for this Maxtor 6Y120P0 is 78F, so I
>need one that screams when the case temp exceeds, say 70F.
>I would never let my drives hit 110F. That's just too hot for anything
>spinning at 7200rpm.
>
>Presently, I have a 120mm and a 80mm fan blowing directly across the
>underside of the drive in question, and when I touched the drive's chassis,
>it was actually cool, as if it weren't even powered on. The drive is
>probably running at 72F case temperature, now that I have the side panel off
>the machine.
>
>The PowerMax software has just finished analyzing the drive. It has failed
>with a dea49db1 code.

No desktop drive has a failure threshold of 78F... look elsewhere for the
problem, it's not temps in excess of 78F.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 4:01:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 23:06:26 GMT, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:


>I suppose we could point blame at the power supply, but slightly low +12 and
>+5 busses don't seem cause for alarm.

What make/model of power supply?
Are these low readings shown from the motherboard or a hardware monitor,
windows or bios report?

The power supply voltage reading taken with a multimeter at the drive
power lead should not be 4% low. I know the spec is 5 & 10 %, but in
practice that's more a tolerance for factory miscalibrated power supplies,
not one with a problem or with it's true capacity being exceeded. At
least the 5V rail should be very near 5.0V, and this system being Athlon
based, using 5V rail for CPU, it is typical that heavier loading of 5V
rail (from the entire system, not just a drive) will result in a 12V rail
somewhat above 12.0V on a power supply with ample capacity... a reading
below 12.0V could be a symptom of a problem.

>One of the drives in my RAID was dropped by UPS, right in front of me,
>before he handed it to me. That drive, or it's partner, failed a few months
>later. Can't say it was the drop that killed it. I think it was electrical
>in nature, not a head crash.

To review, these failed drives, they were pulled from the GA-7DXR system
and tried in another system? Granted the RAID array won't work, but so
far as testing with Maxblast? I'm wondering about the motherboard. It
appears to use several G-Luxon capacitors, a brand which some have
associated with the now-infamous Taiwanese Capacitor Defect fiasco... just
trying to rule out the motherboard itself.

I suppose it goes without saying that we must assume the system is not
overclocked, and further that the memory has been tested recently with
memtest86 or other suitable software tester, so it's installed in that
system at the time of the test. Memory problems seem unlikely given that
you had an error code generated but in the quest to leave no stone
unturned...
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 4:29:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
| In article <c4Gcc.12073$NL4.2734@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
| Mark & Mary Ann Weiss <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:
|| I'm not overclocking this particular system, so the investment in
|| water cooling would be impractical.
|| Reversing the fan and ducting out with a 3" flexible hose might be
|| realistic, but I think you lose a significant amount of thermal
|| energy transfer with barometric reduction, rather than increase.
|| Blowers work as well as they do because there is some compression of
|| air as it's being forced through the heat sink. Reversing the fan
|| would lower the barometric pressure and spread out the intake flow,
|| reducing the velocity of air flow over any part of the heat sink,
|| thus reducing cooling efficiency. The attendant reduction in case
|| temps might offset this loss in efficiency, with the real benefit
|| being lower temps for the rest of the components, but I can only
|| speak qualitatively without having conducted extensive tests with
|| temperature probes and various configurations.
|
| Before you make anything, figure out a way to measure temperatures so
| you know what effect you are having. You may have already done this.
|
| CPU temp is easy. I'm told SMART monitoring can get a disk to report
| it's temperature but I haven't seen it.
|
| I put a one of these next to important disks
|
| http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/cooling/alert/in...
|
| It beeps at $110DegF, which is a conservative max temp for disk
| drives.
|
| It costs about $10US.
|
Using SMART monitoring is not really any more difficult than CPU temp and
fan speeds.
First you enable SMART in the BIOS.
Then you download monitoring software which can read SMART temps from
drives - 'Motherboard Monitor' is quite good, and lets you set adjustable
alarms.
Finally, you configure MBM to read and display your SMART drive temps - just
check a couple of boxes in the config screen and you're done.
Kevin.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 4:54:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:
| "Kevin Lawton" <kepla@btinternet.com> wrote in message
| news:c4v77q$7r5$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
<snip>

| I suppose we could point blame at the power supply, but slightly low
| +12 and +5 busses don't seem cause for alarm.
| The PC tower has never been moved while running, since it was
| installed in it's location.
| There are no loudspeakers within 10' of the server. However, this PC
| shares a sound studio with a very large sound system capable of some
| mind-blowing SPLs. However, the system hasn't been used in the past
| week or more, so that blows the vibration theory.
| I will concede that we killed a Connor drive on an upstairs PC while
| playing the opening 32' organ pedal stop to Also Sprach Zarathustra,
| back in 1989. We don't do that anymore!
|
|| BTW: I've only ever had two hard drives fail me. One because it was
|| dropped (by the postman, not me) and the other because it was
|| running in a PC on a wheeled cart when my wife decided to move it
|| over an uneven tiled floor. I'm afraid I have to claim
|| responsibility for the uneven floor tiles.
|| Kevin.
|
| One of the drives in my RAID was dropped by UPS, right in front of me,
| before he handed it to me. That drive, or it's partner, failed a few
| months later. Can't say it was the drop that killed it. I think it
| was electrical in nature, not a head crash.

As Sherlock Holmes was noted to have said: 'Once you have eliminated the
impossible then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the solution'.
I feel we are on a sort of detective quest here to find out what is going
wrong with your hard drives.
Maybe we should go back to examining the nature of the faults the drives are
showing, as 'dead', 'killed', 'flakey', etc don't give much clue as to what
might have gone wrong. So, what do you find with the bad drives ? Are they
recognised in the BIOS ? Do they make odd noises ? Are they showing a lot
of bad sectors ?
A quick google will yield enough drive test software to give hours of
unbridled pleasure. :-)
If you are thinking it might be the power supply, or want to eliminate it as
a suspect, then it is easy enough to hook up a DVM to the power lines near
each drive and check the voltages while you cycle the machine through a boot
cycle and various operations.
There are only a few things internal to the PC which could be causing
premature drive failure - heat, power, etc. Once you have eliminated these
then it must be some external influence.
Kevin.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 7, 2004 11:40:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

>
> As Sherlock Holmes was noted to have said: 'Once you have eliminated the
> impossible then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the
solution'.
> I feel we are on a sort of detective quest here to find out what is going
> wrong with your hard drives.
> Maybe we should go back to examining the nature of the faults the drives
are
> showing, as 'dead', 'killed', 'flakey', etc don't give much clue as to
what
> might have gone wrong. So, what do you find with the bad drives ? Are
they
> recognised in the BIOS ? Do they make odd noises ? Are they showing a
lot
> of bad sectors ?

During the period which the drive was unrecognized by the BIOS, it would
make a 'clank' sound once, as the BIOS scan stopped on Controller 0,
primary. That was before the 1-hour cooldown. After that, the drive was
on-off-on and remained on all through several hours of backup/recovery. I
was able to recover 100% of the changed data.
I then ran MaxBlast's long diagnostic and it returned the error code. The
drive is failing.
The RAID has not exhibited any problems since. I have Promise FastCheck
running and it reports no problems. SMART is enabled and all vital signs are
okay.
Meanwhile, I've replaced the Maxtor drive with a Western Digital I picked up
at OfficeMax. It's working fine, but I'm dismayed that the read performance
is about half of the write performance, and about half as fast as the Maxtor
it replaced. Sharply asymmetrical read/write seems odd. I suspect a conflict
with the chipset driver or motherboard is slowing this thing down on reads.


> A quick google will yield enough drive test software to give hours of
> unbridled pleasure. :-)
> If you are thinking it might be the power supply, or want to eliminate it
as
> a suspect, then it is easy enough to hook up a DVM to the power lines near
> each drive and check the voltages while you cycle the machine through a
boot
> cycle and various operations.
> There are only a few things internal to the PC which could be causing
> premature drive failure - heat, power, etc. Once you have eliminated these
> then it must be some external influence.
> Kevin.

The DVM is a good idea. But I'm planning to just replace this power supply.
It was a cheap import that I bought in a pinch slightly over 2 years ago. It
doesn't have the ability to smooth over a brief power interruption like some
of my other overkill PSUs, but now that everything's on a big UPS, it hasn't
been an issue. I'm shopping for an overkill supply this month. I'll keep
this one as a spare.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 8, 2004 4:34:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss <mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:
|| As Sherlock Holmes was noted to have said: 'Once you have eliminated
|| the impossible then whatever remains, however improbable, must be
|| the solution'. I feel we are on a sort of detective quest here to
|| find out what is going wrong with your hard drives.
|| Maybe we should go back to examining the nature of the faults the
|| drives are showing, as 'dead', 'killed', 'flakey', etc don't give
|| much clue as to what might have gone wrong. So, what do you find
|| with the bad drives ? Are they recognised in the BIOS ? Do they
|| make odd noises ? Are they showing a lot of bad sectors ?
|
| During the period which the drive was unrecognized by the BIOS, it
| would make a 'clank' sound once, as the BIOS scan stopped on
| Controller 0, primary. That was before the 1-hour cooldown. After
| that, the drive was on-off-on and remained on all through several
| hours of backup/recovery. I was able to recover 100% of the changed
| data.
| I then ran MaxBlast's long diagnostic and it returned the error code.
| The drive is failing.
| The RAID has not exhibited any problems since. I have Promise
| FastCheck running and it reports no problems. SMART is enabled and
| all vital signs are okay.
| Meanwhile, I've replaced the Maxtor drive with a Western Digital I
| picked up at OfficeMax. It's working fine, but I'm dismayed that the
| read performance is about half of the write performance, and about
| half as fast as the Maxtor it replaced. Sharply asymmetrical
| read/write seems odd. I suspect a conflict with the chipset driver or
| motherboard is slowing this thing down on reads.

Maybe you really have just been 'unlucky' and Maxtor should be replacing the
drive for you. RMA again. I've assumed that you tried the obvious, like
replacing the IDE cable - or at least re-plugging it to clean the contacts.
I guess the error code you are getting from MaxBlast means something
specific and if it has found a genuine problem then the drive is truely
faulty.
As far as the chipset driver is concerned, have you tried using the latest
driver from the m/board or chipset manufacturers ? If you are running
ATA-66 or ATA-100 then it will most probably be worthwhile, as would the
best IDE cables you can get.
Other than that, I'm afraid I'm out of ideas.
Kevin.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 9, 2004 6:05:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

>
> Maybe you really have just been 'unlucky' and Maxtor should be replacing
the
> drive for you. RMA again. I've assumed that you tried the obvious, like
> replacing the IDE cable - or at least re-plugging it to clean the
contacts.
> I guess the error code you are getting from MaxBlast means something
> specific and if it has found a genuine problem then the drive is truely
> faulty.

I believe the drive is faulty.

I am also getting a steady stream of e-mails from other users of the 6Y120P0
that have had their drives die within minutes or days of installing it.
Looks like this drive model has a major problem. I wish those people had
answered my earlier question about reliable drives, as I would have avoided
this model. Hindsight is always 20/20.


> As far as the chipset driver is concerned, have you tried using the latest
> driver from the m/board or chipset manufacturers ? If you are running
> ATA-66 or ATA-100 then it will most probably be worthwhile, as would the
> best IDE cables you can get.
> Other than that, I'm afraid I'm out of ideas.
> Kevin.

I have some interesting problems with chipset drivers holding back from
upgrading to SP3 or SP4. I found out that Gigabyte still has the same driver
version since 2 years ago as the latest. I'm using that version. I cannot
run SP3 or SP4. I think I need SP3 for the WD 160 GB drive to support 48 bit
LBA. But I tried updating to SP4 last month so that I could install a very
important application that won't install on SP2, and having done so, found
that my RAID array would freeze the entire system when reading but not when
writing. I could not even play a video stream--it was 3-4 seconds of play,
20 seconds of frozen system (even the mouse pointer), 3-4 more seconds of
play, 20 seconds freeze, etc. Went back to SP2, and the problem went away.
But I need to install my application, so I MUST solve the RAID
incompatibility with SP3/4.

Curiously, I have the next newer model (7DXR+) from Gigabyte on my other
computer and it has a different RAID chip that supports ATA133. It's running
on SP4 and it's fine.

I think the WD drive's asymmetrical read/write performance may be due to not
having SP3 or greater. It may be addressing the drive in some less direct
way, lacking the 48-bit LBA addressing in SP2, thus slowing the reads?
That's my hunch.

So I have a catch 22 here. Upgrade Windows, lose the RAID. Don't upgrade,
lose the software and the primary hard drive performance.

Gigabyte has been zero help with this problem so far. And communicating with
them is a pain in the *ss because they don't give an e-mail that you can
reply to--you have to use a lengthy web form each time. Been tackling this
for two weeks now.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
April 9, 2004 10:59:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 02:05:19 -0400, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
<mweissX294@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>
>> Maybe you really have just been 'unlucky' and Maxtor should be replacing
>the
>> drive for you. RMA again. I've assumed that you tried the obvious, like
>> replacing the IDE cable - or at least re-plugging it to clean the
>contacts.
>> I guess the error code you are getting from MaxBlast means something
>> specific and if it has found a genuine problem then the drive is truely
>> faulty.
>
>I believe the drive is faulty.
>
>I am also getting a steady stream of e-mails from other users of the 6Y120P0
>that have had their drives die within minutes or days of installing it.
>Looks like this drive model has a major problem. I wish those people had
>answered my earlier question about reliable drives, as I would have avoided
>this model. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I would tend to suspect your "cheap import" power supply, but if indeed
this is a defect particular to this drive, you might see if any of the
major online websites would be interested in doing a story, helping to
accumulate more data... if there's anything that can uncover or rebuke a
problem like this, it's getting that out in the public where more people
have a chance to see it.


>> As far as the chipset driver is concerned, have you tried using the latest
>> driver from the m/board or chipset manufacturers ? If you are running
>> ATA-66 or ATA-100 then it will most probably be worthwhile, as would the
>> best IDE cables you can get.
>> Other than that, I'm afraid I'm out of ideas.
>> Kevin.
>
>I have some interesting problems with chipset drivers holding back from
>upgrading to SP3 or SP4. I found out that Gigabyte still has the same driver
>version since 2 years ago as the latest. I'm using that version. I cannot
>run SP3 or SP4. I think I need SP3 for the WD 160 GB drive to support 48 bit
>LBA. But I tried updating to SP4 last month so that I could install a very
>important application that won't install on SP2, and having done so, found
>that my RAID array would freeze the entire system when reading but not when
>writing. I could not even play a video stream--it was 3-4 seconds of play,
>20 seconds of frozen system (even the mouse pointer), 3-4 more seconds of
>play, 20 seconds freeze, etc. Went back to SP2, and the problem went away.
>But I need to install my application, so I MUST solve the RAID
>incompatibility with SP3/4.

You are not required to get ANY drivers from Gigabyte. The chipset
drivers for AMD & Via southbridge are available from the respective chip
manufacturer, as is the promise raid driver. A newer Gigabyte bios might
be needed though to update the raid bios, if they have. Technically it's
possible to manually update just that RAID bios, or even to use one that's
been modified to provide FULL raid support of the non-lite controller, for
example:
http://www.anycities.com/user/mainboards/giga/giga.html


>
>Curiously, I have the next newer model (7DXR+) from Gigabyte on my other
>computer and it has a different RAID chip that supports ATA133. It's running
>on SP4 and it's fine.
>
>I think the WD drive's asymmetrical read/write performance may be due to not
>having SP3 or greater. It may be addressing the drive in some less direct
>way, lacking the 48-bit LBA addressing in SP2, thus slowing the reads?
>That's my hunch.

No, they're just slower drives. Their strength is in the caching
algorithm, making them better suited to simultaneous accesses rather than
a single linear use such as video editing.

>
>So I have a catch 22 here. Upgrade Windows, lose the RAID. Don't upgrade,
>lose the software and the primary hard drive performance.
>
>Gigabyte has been zero help with this problem so far. And communicating with
>them is a pain in the *ss because they don't give an e-mail that you can
>reply to--you have to use a lengthy web form each time. Been tackling this
>for two weeks now.

All you can likely get from Gigabyte is the latest bios.
!