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Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 1, 2004 10:25:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?

Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.

Thanks
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 1, 2004 10:25:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

"We Live For The One We Die For The One" <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
message news:bnn69092umv8fd042vmfm3dou6sapn3csj@4ax.com...
> What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
> Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
> Thanks
Do you mean to ask, "What IS the ...."?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 1, 2004 10:25:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:25:27 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
<Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>
>What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>
>Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>
>Thanks

Perhaps the best way to achieve what you want:
80mm to 92mm adapter
http://store.yahoo.com/sidewindercomputers/al80to92fana...
92mm Panaflo High Speed
http://sidewindercomputers.com/pa92hisp.html

regards

Dud
--

If we are what we eat. I'm cheap, fast, and easy.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 2, 2004 12:44:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:25:27 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
<Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>
>What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>
>Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>
>Thanks

The large issue may be what minimal CFM your heatsink, ambient
environment, etc, will allow. In general the two makes of fans with
greatest CFM to noise ratio are Papst (sleeve-bearing models only) and
Panaflo (hydrowave [proprietary sleeve also] which is very common compared
to their rare ball bearing versions).

So of the above two makes you need determine the CFM floor and choose the
appropriate model. For "typical" use a Panaflow FBA08A12L1A should be a
good, more cost-effective choice over the Papst. Often on the 'net
they're simply referred to as an "L1A". In more extreme environment or
for aggressive overclocking you might want the higher airflow
FBA08A12M1A... see the trend? "M" for medium, "L" for low.

Of course it also depends on the heatsink, a good 'sink will make it more
likely you can use a low speed fan.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 2, 2004 6:11:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

I just want one to put on my Silent boost heatsink, IF the cooler on
it is not as quiet as i want :) 



On Sat, 01 May 2004 20:44:49 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:25:27 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
><Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>>
>>Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>>
>>Thanks
>
>The large issue may be what minimal CFM your heatsink, ambient
>environment, etc, will allow. In general the two makes of fans with
>greatest CFM to noise ratio are Papst (sleeve-bearing models only) and
>Panaflo (hydrowave [proprietary sleeve also] which is very common compared
>to their rare ball bearing versions).
>
>So of the above two makes you need determine the CFM floor and choose the
>appropriate model. For "typical" use a Panaflow FBA08A12L1A should be a
>good, more cost-effective choice over the Papst. Often on the 'net
>they're simply referred to as an "L1A". In more extreme environment or
>for aggressive overclocking you might want the higher airflow
>FBA08A12M1A... see the trend? "M" for medium, "L" for low.
>
>Of course it also depends on the heatsink, a good 'sink will make it more
>likely you can use a low speed fan.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 2, 2004 6:11:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Sun, 02 May 2004 14:11:35 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
<Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>I just want one to put on my Silent boost heatsink, IF the cooler on
>it is not as quiet as i want :) 

Silent Boost comes with a special ribbed Panaflo L1A. Wait till you get
it then decide... there isn't much that's quieter than an L1A unless you
use a fan speed controller or variable speed fan, which could be quieter
but will VERY likely have a higher noise to airflow ratio, so louder for
any particular level of cooling. Most people find the L1A plenty quiet,
inaudible in a system having other case/video/psu/etc fans.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 3, 2004 6:05:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

No from what ive been reading, their are two versions of the silent
boost, maybe the one with the HydroBearing has the Panaflow ?

They say its 21db, HA HA, more like 26 fromt he reviews i read.

Anyway we will see.

Thanks.


On Sun, 02 May 2004 07:53:44 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 02 May 2004 14:11:35 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
><Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>I just want one to put on my Silent boost heatsink, IF the cooler on
>>it is not as quiet as i want :) 
>
>Silent Boost comes with a special ribbed Panaflo L1A. Wait till you get
>it then decide... there isn't much that's quieter than an L1A unless you
>use a fan speed controller or variable speed fan, which could be quieter
>but will VERY likely have a higher noise to airflow ratio, so louder for
>any particular level of cooling. Most people find the L1A plenty quiet,
>inaudible in a system having other case/video/psu/etc fans.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 3, 2004 6:05:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 03 May 2004 02:05:09 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
<Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>No from what ive been reading, their are two versions of the silent
>boost, maybe the one with the HydroBearing has the Panaflow ?
>
>They say its 21db, HA HA, more like 26 fromt he reviews i read.
>
>Anyway we will see.
>
>Thanks.

Both versions are for K7, socket A?
If so, could you link to 2nd version without the Panaflo fan, perhaps a
picture?
May 3, 2004 2:06:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<bnn69092umv8fd042vmfm3dou6sapn3csj@4ax.com>...
> What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>
> Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>
> Thanks

Zalman's and Vantec Stealth's are pretty quiet, but the airflow ain't
too great. To get a good airflow you'll need to sacrifice some of the
quietness.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 3, 2004 5:27:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Same Soket A CPUS, but one has a Hydrowave Bearing Fan the other has
not, have alot at the www.thermaltake.com website just do a search for
silent boost and you can see, the specs are the same, though for some
reason just dirrerent modle number ?

But people say the hydrowave is quieter for some reason.

See ya.



On Sun, 02 May 2004 17:41:08 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 May 2004 02:05:09 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
><Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>No from what ive been reading, their are two versions of the silent
>>boost, maybe the one with the HydroBearing has the Panaflow ?
>>
>>They say its 21db, HA HA, more like 26 fromt he reviews i read.
>>
>>Anyway we will see.
>>
>>Thanks.
>
>Both versions are for K7, socket A?
>If so, could you link to 2nd version without the Panaflo fan, perhaps a
>picture?
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 3, 2004 5:27:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Mon, 03 May 2004 13:27:20 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
<Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>
>Same Soket A CPUS, but one has a Hydrowave Bearing Fan the other has
>not, have alot at the www.thermaltake.com website just do a search for
>silent boost and you can see, the specs are the same, though for some
>reason just dirrerent modle number ?
>
>But people say the hydrowave is quieter for some reason.
>
>See ya.

If I were guessing, my guess would be that whoever it was at Thermaltake
that wrote one of those spec sheets for the website, also GUESSED. AFAIK
that fan only comes in a hydrowave (sleeve) bearing version.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 3, 2004 9:54:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
|
| Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.

The best 'normal' HSF I know of are the ThermalTake temperature-controlled
ones. When everything's cool the fan only turns slowly and it automatically
speeds up when things get hot - so you get quiet operation as much as
possible, but don't sacrifice really good cooling when you need it.
ThermalTake stuff seems to be of very good quality but, as with most things,
you pay for it. The fans they use are about an inch thick and are capable of
shoving a fair old quantity of air. Exact spec will be on their web site,
but I;ve used them on overclocked Thunderbird cores in the past and they did
the job well.
I've recently built three XP2400 systems - on Gigabyte GA-7VRXP m/boards -
and taken a different approach. I gave the CoolerMaster 'Aero' HSFs a try
and they are very good. They use a tangential fan, as opposed to the more
usual axial type, which is able to generate a higher flow and pressure with
less 'roaring' noise. Instead of having thermostatic temperature control,
they come with a fan speed control and mounting plates for the front or rear
of the case. The idea is that you adjust the fan speed for just enough
cooling, but not more than you need - and therefore no more noise than
necessary. The heat sink they come on is pretty good as well. A copper core
for heat conduction, aluminium fans for low weight and good quality clips
(three-hole) which is so important on socket-7 boards I find.
If you are going to be running your CPU fan at less than full speed, make
sure the trigger for your m/board fan speed alarm isn't set too high or it
will be going off all the time.
Kevin.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 4, 2004 3:37:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

I would email Thermaltake if i thought i woudl get a reply :) 

Might do it anyway see what happens, you email them as well :) 

Thanks.


On Mon, 03 May 2004 04:28:08 GMT, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 May 2004 13:27:20 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The One
><Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Same Soket A CPUS, but one has a Hydrowave Bearing Fan the other has
>>not, have alot at the www.thermaltake.com website just do a search for
>>silent boost and you can see, the specs are the same, though for some
>>reason just dirrerent modle number ?
>>
>>But people say the hydrowave is quieter for some reason.
>>
>>See ya.
>
>If I were guessing, my guess would be that whoever it was at Thermaltake
>that wrote one of those spec sheets for the website, also GUESSED. AFAIK
>that fan only comes in a hydrowave (sleeve) bearing version.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 4, 2004 7:39:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

My Pc is pretty quiet now all fans at 7 volts, but the CPU fan is 12
volt :) 

With a Fan on the Side and Top you get that extra cooling without
rsorting to 12 volt high CFM fans.

Also if you lap the CPu heatsink does wonders, a pssive heatsink onthe
northbridge and a Heatpipe cooler for your Vidcard and as silent as
your going to get.

My Athlon Xp 2400 is 39c at the momment theAmbient in the case is 19c
though its pretty cold here today in Australia inside my place its 18c
:) 

In summer i would expect it to be somthing like 55 60 at load, buts
thats cool for a Xp2400 :) 

See ya.


On 3 May 2004 10:06:22 -0700, petermcmillan_uk@yahoo.com (Peter)
wrote:

>We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<bnn69092umv8fd042vmfm3dou6sapn3csj@4ax.com>...
>> What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>>
>> Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>>
>> Thanks
>
>Zalman's and Vantec Stealth's are pretty quiet, but the airflow ain't
>too great. To get a good airflow you'll need to sacrifice some of the
>quietness.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 5, 2004 5:03:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

BULLSHIT ive got a thermaly controled Thermaltake fan and ITS LOUD.

had it on my volcano 7, was loud then, and i tried it again and is
still loud as a case fan.


My Vantec AeroFlow is a better cooler that the Coolermaster, maybe my
new Silent Boost will be even better ?

See ya.


On Mon, 3 May 2004 17:54:42 +0000 (UTC), "Kevin Lawton"
<socks.kepla.shoes@btopenworld.com> wrote:

>We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>| What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>|
>| Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>
>The best 'normal' HSF I know of are the ThermalTake temperature-controlled
>ones. When everything's cool the fan only turns slowly and it automatically
>speeds up when things get hot - so you get quiet operation as much as
>possible, but don't sacrifice really good cooling when you need it.
>ThermalTake stuff seems to be of very good quality but, as with most things,
>you pay for it. The fans they use are about an inch thick and are capable of
>shoving a fair old quantity of air. Exact spec will be on their web site,
>but I;ve used them on overclocked Thunderbird cores in the past and they did
>the job well.
>I've recently built three XP2400 systems - on Gigabyte GA-7VRXP m/boards -
>and taken a different approach. I gave the CoolerMaster 'Aero' HSFs a try
>and they are very good. They use a tangential fan, as opposed to the more
>usual axial type, which is able to generate a higher flow and pressure with
>less 'roaring' noise. Instead of having thermostatic temperature control,
>they come with a fan speed control and mounting plates for the front or rear
>of the case. The idea is that you adjust the fan speed for just enough
>cooling, but not more than you need - and therefore no more noise than
>necessary. The heat sink they come on is pretty good as well. A copper core
>for heat conduction, aluminium fans for low weight and good quality clips
>(three-hole) which is so important on socket-7 boards I find.
>If you are going to be running your CPU fan at less than full speed, make
>sure the trigger for your m/board fan speed alarm isn't set too high or it
>will be going off all the time.
>Kevin.
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 5, 2004 5:03:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| BULLSHIT ive got a thermaly controled Thermaltake fan and ITS LOUD.

If it is noticeably loud (subjective, of course) then it would be
interesting to know what rpm it is running at and what temp you're seeing.
Obviously you'll hear it if it is running at full speed as any axial fan
will make a roaring noise due to the turbulance from the air rolling off the
tips of the fan blades. If it is loud at a low rpm when things are quite
cool (all subjective again, I know) then maybe there is a problem with it ?

| had it on my volcano 7, was loud then, and i tried it again and is
| still loud as a case fan.

At full rpm you can expect to hear any 'normal' design of axial fan. The
advantage of a thermally controlled one is that it shouldn't be running at
full rpm most of the time so it will be quieter.

| My Vantec AeroFlow is a better cooler that the Coolermaster, maybe my
| new Silent Boost will be even better ?

I've no experience of the Vantec as yet, but the design appears to avoid the
blade-tip turbulence so I would expect it to be quieter. I'll have to get a
couple and give them a try as they look like a good idea. Less noise and no
bearing maintenance must surely be a good thing.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Kevin.
May 5, 2004 4:51:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

FWIW I added a blowhole to my PSU, just above my CPU, and added
Zalman ZM-OP1 fan to the hole. With it running on 5V I saw my CPU
diode temp drop by 5C. Also I was able to reduce the fan RPM on the
heatsink (Zalman Cu6000).

I have an Antec 92mm fan over the heatsink and a Panflo L1A on the
rear case with a Thermaltake 120mm (running at 5V) on the front.

Diode reports 53C using a XP2200

The PC is very quiet and underload it never goes above 55C on the
diode.

cheers

Harry


On Sat, 01 May 2004 18:25:27 +1000, We Live For The One We Die For The
One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>
>What would be the quietest 80mm fan with with the highest CFM ?
>
>Need one for my heatsink, xp2400.
>
>Thanks
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 5, 2004 5:56:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

Ny Vantec is Quiet but not silent not anoying but ok, still want less
noise though.


On Tue, 4 May 2004 17:23:19 +0000 (UTC), "Kevin Lawton"
<socks.kepla.shoes@btinternet.com> wrote:

>We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>| BULLSHIT ive got a thermaly controled Thermaltake fan and ITS LOUD.
>
>If it is noticeably loud (subjective, of course) then it would be
>interesting to know what rpm it is running at and what temp you're seeing.
>Obviously you'll hear it if it is running at full speed as any axial fan
>will make a roaring noise due to the turbulance from the air rolling off the
>tips of the fan blades. If it is loud at a low rpm when things are quite
>cool (all subjective again, I know) then maybe there is a problem with it ?
>
>| had it on my volcano 7, was loud then, and i tried it again and is
>| still loud as a case fan.
>
>At full rpm you can expect to hear any 'normal' design of axial fan. The
>advantage of a thermally controlled one is that it shouldn't be running at
>full rpm most of the time so it will be quieter.
>
>| My Vantec AeroFlow is a better cooler that the Coolermaster, maybe my
>| new Silent Boost will be even better ?
>
>I've no experience of the Vantec as yet, but the design appears to avoid the
>blade-tip turbulence so I would expect it to be quieter. I'll have to get a
>couple and give them a try as they look like a good idea. Less noise and no
>bearing maintenance must surely be a good thing.
>Thanks for the recommendation.
>Kevin.
>
>
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 5, 2004 5:56:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
| Ny Vantec is Quiet but not silent not anoying but ok, still want less
| noise though.

The Vantec seems to be an interesting engineering solution and I'm looking
forward to trying one out. I reckon that the fan design will be good as a
case intake fan also.
I've read some reviews of the ThermalTake SlentBoost and I am surprised by
their claim that the 'vented' fan cage is able to give quieter running. I
would have expected it to increase turbulence so I guess it is another one
I'm going to have to try. Interesting is the fact that Panaflow rate the
bare fan as 28 dbA, though ThermalTake quote 21 dbA. I would have thought
that coupling the fan to the heatsink would increase the noise level, not
reduce it. I guess the low noise levels are acheived by having a fan which
only runs at 2450 rpm - certainly the not-so-good cooling, even with a
copper heatsink, would bear this out. Also, from its shape, I'd imagine that
it might not be too easy to mount and dismount. With so many m/boards
placing the CPU quite close to the PSU in a standard tower case I think this
can be quite important.
At least we have a choice.
Kevin.

| On Tue, 4 May 2004 17:23:19 +0000 (UTC), "Kevin Lawton"
| <socks.kepla.shoes@btinternet.com> wrote:
|
|| We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
||| BULLSHIT ive got a thermaly controled Thermaltake fan and ITS LOUD.
||
|| If it is noticeably loud (subjective, of course) then it would be
|| interesting to know what rpm it is running at and what temp you're
|| seeing. Obviously you'll hear it if it is running at full speed as
|| any axial fan will make a roaring noise due to the turbulance from
|| the air rolling off the tips of the fan blades. If it is loud at a
|| low rpm when things are quite cool (all subjective again, I know)
|| then maybe there is a problem with it ?
||
||| had it on my volcano 7, was loud then, and i tried it again and is
||| still loud as a case fan.
||
|| At full rpm you can expect to hear any 'normal' design of axial fan.
|| The advantage of a thermally controlled one is that it shouldn't be
|| running at full rpm most of the time so it will be quieter.
||
||| My Vantec AeroFlow is a better cooler that the Coolermaster, maybe
||| my
||| new Silent Boost will be even better ?
||
|| I've no experience of the Vantec as yet, but the design appears to
|| avoid the blade-tip turbulence so I would expect it to be quieter.
|| I'll have to get a couple and give them a try as they look like a
|| good idea. Less noise and no bearing maintenance must surely be a
|| good thing.
|| Thanks for the recommendation.
|| Kevin.
Anonymous
a b B Homebuilt system
May 5, 2004 5:56:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt (More info?)

On Wed, 5 May 2004 10:47:38 +0000 (UTC), "Kevin Lawton"
<socks.kepla.shoes@btinternet.com> wrote:

>We Live For The One We Die For The One <Mr fred@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>| Ny Vantec is Quiet but not silent not anoying but ok, still want less
>| noise though.
>
>The Vantec seems to be an interesting engineering solution and I'm looking
>forward to trying one out. I reckon that the fan design will be good as a
>case intake fan also.

Thermally controlled fans aren't too good for case intake, generally to
change RPM they need significantly higher than ambient temp. Too often
that's the problem with any thermally controlled fan, their RPM to temp
response isn't very good.

>I've read some reviews of the ThermalTake SlentBoost and I am surprised by
>their claim that the 'vented' fan cage is able to give quieter running. I
>would have expected it to increase turbulence so I guess it is another one
>I'm going to have to try.

Basically what it does is increase air intake area. not a huge difference
and perhaps not even significant on a heatsink since that design would
tend to recirculate slightly more of the 'sink exhaust air.

>Interesting is the fact that Panaflow rate the
>bare fan as 28 dbA, though ThermalTake quote 21 dbA. I would have thought
>that coupling the fan to the heatsink would increase the noise level, not
>reduce it.

Major fan manufacturer's specs can be believed but Thermaltake (as with
most low to mid-range product manufacturers) seems to intentionally
deviate from industry standard measurement to produce deceptive (false)
information. It's bad enough when manufacturers claim noise level only
based on what the fan would produce in free air instead of mounted on the
'sink, but Thermaltake goes one step worse in their spec.

>I guess the low noise levels are acheived by having a fan which
>only runs at 2450 rpm - certainly the not-so-good cooling, even with a
>copper heatsink, would bear this out.

That is Panaflo's mid-speed fan. As with noise levels you may find "some"
fans' specs with false, padded airflow numbers. That fan on any decent
mid-range heatsink is enough to cool an Athlon XP3200. That fan on a
high-end heatsink is enough to cool any Socket A chip as high as it can be
reasonably overclocked. The non-vented Panaflo M1A version I have has
been cooling a T'Bred @ 2.5GHz for almost a year.

Panaflo fans really are the best choice out there unless you absolutely
MUST have thermal control. M1A isn't loud enough to be too concerned
about it though, and if noise is really that much of an issue there's
always the L1A, low speed version.


>Also, from its shape, I'd imagine that
>it might not be too easy to mount and dismount. With so many m/boards
>placing the CPU quite close to the PSU in a standard tower case I think this
>can be quite important.
>At least we have a choice.
>Kevin.

Better to have a big 'sink and fan that's harder to mount than a small
'sink that's easy... shouldn't be needing to mount/dismount it too often
anyway. It fits within AMD's keepout zone so it should always fit on a
board... main issue would be if socket lugs are positioned on top and
bottom of socket rather than sides, in which case it's a lot easier to use
a custom tool to attach the 'sink clip (like a bent screwdriver). The
right tools can really make a difference, make it safter and save a lot of
time.
!